ZGold 0 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 This is probably a product of me having my own system for recording/classifying quests, but here goes... Does anyone else find the structure of the quests on the wiki...confusing? I don't mean within the quests themselves, but the lists of quests, for example, chain quests don't appear as a single, overarching 'quest' on the 'all quests' list (with a couple of odd exceptions), but rather as each of their component parts, and class quests are split into light/shadow columns even when, in my experience, path has no effect on class quests... Personally I split the quests up into: Core Quests (Light/Shadow) Common Quests Class Quests Path Quests (Light/Shadow) Deity Quests I suppose each of those could then also be split into Single/Chain quests, although I don't bother. Anyway, I don't suppose anyone can enlighten me on the structure chosen for the wiki - and the reasons why that structure was chosen? Link to comment
Kenjitsuka 0 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Sorry, I wasn't involved in that so no idea. I do however find it a bit hard to locate the character quests, as the game calls them Class Quests and the wiki Character Quests.... Link to comment
Schot 407 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Well the wonderful thing about wiki's is that pages are always open for debate. The quest structure is certainly the most complex system on the wiki. Since the day the Quest page was created it has been in constant flux as we learned more and more about quests and their various associations to classes, game modes, storyline and so on. The many associations is largely why it is still a work in progress. Every so often a new perspective is brought up and this really helps us to take the organization of quests a step up. Ideally we will eventually make the main links on the quest page focus on Character Classes. For example: [tr] Seraphim Shadow Warrior Dryad Temple Guardian High Elf Inquisitor [/tr][tr]Light Light Shadow Light Shadow Light Shadow Light Shadow Shadow[/tr] The fact that we haven't already done this is because there's still a great deal of quests to document and as it is we're only able to honestly associate quests to the categories now on the wiki. Campaign was pretty easy and we use the word Campaign because that's what is used in the game. For Side Quests it is a commonly recognized word or categorization used in most rpg's and our Side Quests category signifies quests outside of the main campaign as Zeno put it on the wiki. I think it would probably be to the readers advantage to provide as many ways to see the quest listed as we can so something like the below might work out well in the future: Main Campaign Quests: Light - Shadow Light Path Side Quests - Shadow Path Side Quests Common Side Quests Single Goal - Chain Quests - By Region - By Star/Difficulty Rating Character Specific Side Quests: Seraphim - Shadow Warrior - Dryad - Temple Guardian - High Elf - Inquisitor For the moment though we're still trying to document the quests in order to label and organize the best. Funny you should mention the Character quests Kenji. The link to click says Character yet the actual page name says Class, haha. I guess we were undecided. ^^ Hopefully the Quest maps will help us get through documenting those quests! Link to comment
Slayer89 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 This is probably a product of me having my own system for recording/classifying quests, but here goes... Does anyone else find the structure of the quests on the wiki...confusing? I don't mean within the quests themselves, but the lists of quests, for example, chain quests don't appear as a single, overarching 'quest' on the 'all quests' list (with a couple of odd exceptions), but rather as each of their component parts, and class quests are split into light/shadow columns even when, in my experience, path has no effect on class quests... Personally I split the quests up into: Core Quests (Light/Shadow) Common Quests Class Quests Path Quests (Light/Shadow) Deity Quests I suppose each of those could then also be split into Single/Chain quests, although I don't bother. Anyway, I don't suppose anyone can enlighten me on the structure chosen for the wiki - and the reasons why that structure was chosen? Most likely the quest page will be split up even further, but for now I think the current layout works. The old structure was hard to follow with tons of links going off one page. Zeno and I discussed about a new layout which would seperate the quests, so that campaign, class, chain, and side would have their own page to cut down on clutter. Chain quest are excluded from the side quest to keep from confusing people with why they can't find a certain quest. Though I still feel that the parts of the chain quest should be included in the quest category, so that there will be a list for people to be able to view all quest at once. Link to comment
Schot 407 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Most likely the quest page will be split up even further. Most definitely. Ideally, the main Quest page will contain links to any number of Quest related pages outlining specific lists of quests in order to accommodate readers looking for specific collections of quests. I already see the need for a list of all 5 star quests since "I believe" that 5 star quests would result in the best rewards. Similarly, there might be demand for a page showing all single goal quests for those who might want to develope a quick questing route which may result, or may not, in great set item drops. And of course there is the matter of reputation. Reputation is a yet to be confirmed factor in the game which may provide better rewards from quests and perhaps merchant offerings. And the list can go on... Best thing we can do now I think is to uncover the specifics of each of the quests. Link to comment
Zinsho 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Just a quick nitpick Schot. I do hope you aren't expecting to get a Shadow Character line for the seraphim, nor a Light for the Inquisitor... if you are I'd like to see what game script you have access to that the rest of us don't. (And I know that was just a quickly setup table for demonstration purposes) Link to comment
Schot 407 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 lol Thanks Zin. I can always count on you to set me straight. Link to comment
Zinsho 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I try, not always an easy job though. Although setting gogo straight about game mechanics sometimes... tell him something twice and he still doesn't clue in to what you're saying... then suddenly when he clues in he asks why you didn't tell him sooner. Link to comment
Zinsho 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Thanks... and who knows, if I get through the other things I plan to do this week, I might actually write up a quest or two. Link to comment
Schot 407 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Ah that's right. Got the whole week off you lucky guy. Well that would be exceptionally kind to sacrifice a bit of time from your vacation to the wiki. So while we're on the subject here of improving the Quest page layout maybe it's high time to work on a more thourough layout? How's about we throw some proposal's down eh? To get the ball rolling I think it might work well to have headers for each character. Some things, like the Campaign, don't change from character to character although... I do believe some of the dialogue changes based on whether the character is a male of female character. Giles FTW! Ahem... I think we can afford to ignore male/female differences... If you would like to see all the quests your character has access to in game choose your character below:Seraphim - Shadow Warrior - Dryad - Temple Guardian - High Elf - Inquisitor Campaign: Light - Shadow Light Path Side Quests - Shadow Path Side Quests Deity: (if any... You know I have yet to experience a Deity specific quest...) Lumen - Forens - Kybele - Kuan - Testa - Ker Common Side Quests: Single Goal - Chain Quests Class Specific Quests: Seraphim - Shadow Warrior - Dryad - Temple Guardian - High Elf - Inquisitor All Quests: All Quests - By Region - By Difficulty - By Game Mode - By Best Rewards Well... It's a start. By all means feel free to copy what I've posted and post your own revision. P.s. A revision to the present setup won't be implemented until after we have much more of the quests documented. Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Hmm, well as far as listing quests go I think I have pretty much all the High Elf area quests listed along with whether they are campaign/class etc. The only one I know I don't have is the Temple Guardian class quest. Unfortunately the list is pretty much that, a list - no details on who gives the quest, where it's given (aside from region) etc. I'm currently running a seraphim around like a mad thing to flesh that information out (got 14 quests done yesterday ) and since I only work part time I have 4 days a week I can (attempt!) to continue that effort. Once I get the seraphim done I'll be running the TG through to double check the shadow quests and the TG class quest, and then I'll have to double-check the other class quests. And all that I'm going to be repeating for each chapter Okay... current layout is... Sacred 2:Quests Main Campaign Quests Side Quests Chain Quests Character Specific Side Quests <-- Maybe this should be 'Character Specific'/'Class' Quests, and then split into Side/Chain? Category listings: All Sacred 2 quests <-- An alternative to just listing chain quest subtitles would be to list them as 'Chain title : Subtitle' perhaps? That way you can find it whichever you're looking for Light campaign quests Shadows campaign quests <-- Should that be 'Shadow'? Nvm Side quests Chain quests Class specific quests Personally I would favour combining the Side/Chain quest links at this level, since there are a few odd side quests (such as the tutorials) that at first seem as though they might be chains (subtitled), but I suppose the trial-and-error element of finding things is always going to crop up somewhere! As well as class specific there also needs to be a deity specific category (I've found 3 so far, but I've only been looking when bored as they seem to start in the Human region). I'm curious to know how much the same-titled light/shadow campaign quests differ. I know 'Through the Wall' sends you into the Human region via different routes, but it seems to me that it's the method/motive that changes rather than the ultimate outcome, e.g. crossing from the High Elf region into the Human region. Would it make more sense to perhaps split such pages so that both walkthroughs are in the same place? Or is that my craziness talking again? The side quests page splits into light/shadow and common; if this is meant to be a definitive side-quest page then it should also have splits for class/deity, it it's not...hmm... I'll post again shortly once I've gotten some breakfast ( !) and I've drawn up a pretty table like Schot's Link to comment
Zeno 2 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Hi fellas! I'm back after a couple of terrible weeks full of work at the office.... I've being reading at this thread, and I really get one conclusion of all these words: The important things here are the quest articles; the main page is just a link hub; if it isn't clear we only need to discuss a better way of organize it and make it real; moreover: why not make different classifications? We can mantain the current hub and just add another one with a different way of classification... At least it won't have any mantainance as long as quests won't go anywhere and won't change their names... Anyway, we just have something like 10% (more? I don't think so) of the quests written up, so I won't care at all about it right now... I've organized all the pages once or twice and it's not such a hard work, no matter the number of links, so I can do it later at any time PS: It's true there is a really annoying thing in the current layout, and it's the splitting between light/dark and the others. You will never know where to look for a quest, in the light/dark specific columns or in the common listing... But well, that's why I added the category Quest to every quest (light, shadow, single quest, chapters of chains, etc...), so if you can't find a quest, just make a quest category listing (you have a link in the main page, at the bottom) and use the find tool of your explorer! Cheers, Zeno Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Edit: nvm what I was going to/had posted, time for plan B!! A graphical representation of why I don't like the Single/Chain split: Anyway, that aside my suggestion for the hub layout (which unfortunately I can't create and link as a 'sandbox' example ) would be: Campaign --> linking to a page split between Light/Shadow(/Shared?) quests Side --> linking to a page listing all side quests, including separate parts of chains Path --> linking to a page split between Light/Shadow Class --> linking to a page split between the six classes Deity --> linking to a page split between the six deities Common --> linking to a page listing all the common side quests, split between Single/Chain with chain only listing the overarching chain name Common Side Quests by: Region --> split into High Elf/Human/Orc/Seraphim...etc Difficulty --> split into */**/***...etc with quests that change rating under their highest rating at any point Game Mode --> split into SP/MP Rewards --> split...umm, well we'd have to work on how to classify/quantify rewards Categories: All quests --> literally all[/a] quests, for chains including the overarching chain name, and then the individual quests beneath it (see example below) Light campaign --> all the light campaign quests Shadow campaign --> all the shadow campaign quests Common side quests --> all side quests unaffected by path/class/deity, for chains including the overarching chain name, and then the individual quests beneath it Path specific quests --> all side quests affected by path, for chains including the overarching chain name, and then the individual path-specific quests beneath it Class specific quests --> all side quests affected by class, for chains including the overarching chain name, and then the individual class-specific quests beneath it Deity specific quests --> all side quests affected by deity, for chains including the overarching chain name, and then the individual class-specific quests beneath it Single side quests --> all side quests consisting of only one part Chain side quests --> all side quests consisting of two or more parts --- Example: Hunting Highwaymen Hunting Highwaymen : Highwaymen Hunting Highwaymen : Leader of the Pack Hunting Highwaymen : Missing Patrol Ideally the subtitled quests would appear in chain order, rather than alphabetical, but I'm not sure how fiddly that would be to implement...maybe replace the colon with the chain number, e.g. Hunting Highwaymen 01 Highwaymen, Hunting Highwaymen 02 Missing Patrol etc. --- Okay, now I'm going back to actually writing quests up xD Edited July 27, 2009 by ZGold Link to comment
Zeno 2 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Well, campaign is done, and side quests sorted by path and class too. On the common side quests they are already classified by region, so you can start with the difficulty sorting Btw, I would forget about classifying by rewards (maybe you can make a short list of specially rewarded quests, but that would be a different section), and game mode can be written in the quests tips section, or even in the header, as it won't make any profit (you'll have 90% of the quests in MP and 10% in SP, which is nonsense). About class/deity is a matter of knowledgement: we still haven't got a list on which quests are specific for class/deity (specially deity ones, despite we're working on it). So, I only see a real difference in the single/chain quest classification between the current and your proposed layout, so I would vote on upgrading/tuning the current layout to make it clearer than it is. Let me write up some things: * Campaign quests: Splitting in light/shadow. Done. * Path Specific: Splitting in light/shadow. Done. Currently included in the side quests page. * Class Specific: Splitting in the six available classes. Done. * Deity Specific: Missing! * Common: Done. The current side quest page. * Chain quests: Done. It's a different page, not into side quests. After looking at that... I think it's only a matter on how to put everything together. The real problem is how to deal with single/chain quests. I would list all single side quests no matter if they are part of a chain quest or not; then a different listing for chain quest pages like the current one; include in the header of the single side quests the chain quest they own to (if applies). Should I start a poll on it? And lastly, common side quests sortings... the default sorting for ALL quest pages is allways chapter (same as region). I would add different sortings as an extra section, just to keep the main section as simple as possible: I.e. your layout is nice, but too deep; Side can be deleted as it is obvious (every non-campaing quest is a side quest!), and the Si/Ch for me is nonsense so deep in the layout (I'll apply what I explain in the above sentence). That would result in a quite simple layout, won't it? Omg... Too much read/write... I need.... errr... Cheers! Zeno PS: Just want to add a couple of things: - 1st: Sorry for the complete disorder of the post... - 2nd: I didn't told about that, but I don't like the including the overarching chain name idea, as it would make names too long (at the end won't be worth it). I think that just adding a "Chain Quest Chapter" category would make the work (maybe a short suffix, like CH). Edited July 27, 2009 by Zeno Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Omg... Too much read/write... I need.... errr... After 2 pints of I have reached this conclusion....me and Zeno are talking about the same things from different angles...I think... I know most of what I've been suggesting isn't 'new' except in terms of layout (and then not by much), but that was the point of this thread - I'm either looking to drive a change in layout to one that I understand or for someone to explain why the links currently exist in the form that they do (e.g. why have single and chain side quests separately?) so that when I start adding things I know where they need to go. Classifying by reward/game mode *points finger at Schot* his idea, not mine ^^ Class quests - I can definitively say the following are class quests: Revisitation! - Shadow Warrior initial quest Pastures New - Dryad initial quest End of a Journey - A New Journey Begins - Seraphim initial quest Conspiracies! - Inquisitor initial quest Duel! - High Elf initial quest Unpack - Temple Guardian initial quest Alchemy? It's all Chemistry! - Dryad Chapter 1 class quest All or Nothing - Inquisitor Chapter 1 class quest Brothers in Arms - Shadow Warrior Chapter 1 class quest Rusty Inheritance - Temple Guardian Chapter 1 class quest Settlement from the Grave - High Elf Chapter 1 class quest (this is a chain quest, but not the 'blue' chain quest) As far as the initial quests go, there are minor differences depending on campaign choice, but as far as I'm aware they really are minor, e.g. SW kills Tybor for revenge/SW kills Tybor because he attacks, HE kills opponent for power rush/HE only defeats opponent Deity quests I've found are: Desecrated God - Testa Desecrated Goddess - Kybele Desecrated Gods - Forens These are all in Chapter 2/Human region (there are none in Chapter 1), but I don't know much about them as I've only run 2 characters (both light) through that area in detail so far, plus all three quests seemed to be quite buggy (v2.34) - something I'm hoping is fixed by the latest version. And lastly, common side quests sortings... the default sorting for ALL quest pages is allways chapter (same as region). I would add different sortings as an extra section, just to keep the main section as simple as possible: I.e. your layout is nice, but too deep; Side can be deleted as it is obvious (every non-campaing quest is a side quest!), and the Si/Ch for me is nonsense so deep in the layout (I'll apply what I explain in the above sentence). That would result in a quite simple layout, won't it? Uhh...too deep? My layout consists of one 'hub' page (which was the list) and then a set of sub pages linked to via the bold text... By my count that's what, 1 or 2 pages deep? If you're referring to the image in my post that was there to demonstrate why I do not like the idea of separating single/chain quests except on the common side quest page... Link to comment
Zeno 2 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Uhm, yes I referred to the image... btw, I think there's no need of any coffee to see we're talking about the same Anyway... I'll try to manage some way to make a test wiki page: you know, a screen is better than a zillion words Cheers, Zeno Link to comment
Ysne58 236 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Hmm, well as far as listing quests go I think I have pretty much all the High Elf area quests listed along with whether they are campaign/class etc. The only one I know I don't have is the Temple Guardian class quest. Unfortunately the list is pretty much that, a list - no details on who gives the quest, where it's given (aside from region) etc. I'm currently running a seraphim around like a mad thing to flesh that information out (got 14 quests done yesterday ) and since I only work part time I have 4 days a week I can (attempt!) to continue that effort. Once I get the seraphim done I'll be running the TG through to double check the shadow quests and the TG class quest, and then I'll have to double-check the other class quests. And all that I'm going to be repeating for each chapter Okay... current layout is... Sacred 2:Quests Main Campaign Quests Side Quests Chain Quests Character Specific Side Quests <-- Maybe this should be 'Character Specific'/'Class' Quests, and then split into Side/Chain? Category listings: All Sacred 2 quests <-- An alternative to just listing chain quest subtitles would be to list them as 'Chain title : Subtitle' perhaps? That way you can find it whichever you're looking for Light campaign quests Shadows campaign quests <-- Should that be 'Shadow'? Nvm Side quests Chain quests Class specific quests Personally I would favour combining the Side/Chain quest links at this level, since there are a few odd side quests (such as the tutorials) that at first seem as though they might be chains (subtitled), but I suppose the trial-and-error element of finding things is always going to crop up somewhere! As well as class specific there also needs to be a deity specific category (I've found 3 so far, but I've only been looking when bored as they seem to start in the Human region). I'm curious to know how much the same-titled light/shadow campaign quests differ. I know 'Through the Wall' sends you into the Human region via different routes, but it seems to me that it's the method/motive that changes rather than the ultimate outcome, e.g. crossing from the High Elf region into the Human region. Would it make more sense to perhaps split such pages so that both walkthroughs are in the same place? Or is that my craziness talking again? The side quests page splits into light/shadow and common; if this is meant to be a definitive side-quest page then it should also have splits for class/deity, it it's not...hmm... I'll post again shortly once I've gotten some breakfast ( !) and I've drawn up a pretty table like Schot's I'm running Light and Shadow TGs side by side to compare how they differ. It doesn't hurt to have someone double checking to make sure I'm not missing anything. I just got the information on the unpacked quest completed. The Verification starts at the same place that the Unpacked quest ends. Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) It would be great to know how much variance there is on quests that have the same title but are on different campaigns - it's not something I'm checking at the moment, so keep us posted Ysne Edited July 27, 2009 by ZGold Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 Hmm...under the current linkage system, where do path-specific chain quests (such as Serving the Inquisition) go? Also, where do chain quests with individual path-specific parts (such as Rivals) go? Link to comment
Zeno 2 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Hmm...under the current linkage system, where do path-specific chain quests (such as Serving the Inquisition) go? Also, where do chain quests with individual path-specific parts (such as Rivals) go? It was thought to make a similar layout also for the chain quests page listing, like the others with a section of light/dark only chainquests and another section with common chain quests. But due to the lack of guides written up and taking a look at this discussion, I think the decision will be posposed Link to comment
Schot 407 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Hmm...under the current linkage system, where do path-specific chain quests (such as Serving the Inquisition) go? Also, where do chain quests with individual path-specific parts (such as Rivals) go? It was thought to make a similar layout also for the chain quests page listing, like the others with a section of light/dark only chainquests and another section with common chain quests. But due to the lack of guides written up and taking a look at this discussion, I think the decision will be posposed Hmmm. On the point of "Serving the Inquisition", where does the quest begin ZGold? I'd like to take a look at that one and see how it works with different characters. On the point of expanding the main Quest page if you'd like you can create a proposal on your wiki user page. That's our wiki's sandbox. Keep in mind that since everyone sees order in different ways that we'll likely add to the Quest page as opposed to changing/removing. Granted some things may afford renaming... Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Hmm...under the current linkage system, where do path-specific chain quests (such as Serving the Inquisition) go? Also, where do chain quests with individual path-specific parts (such as Rivals) go? It was thought to make a similar layout also for the chain quests page listing, like the others with a section of light/dark only chainquests and another section with common chain quests. But due to the lack of guides written up and taking a look at this discussion, I think the decision will be posposed Hmmm. On the point of "Serving the Inquisition", where does the quest begin ZGold? I'd like to take a look at that one and see how it works with different characters. On the point of expanding the main Quest page if you'd like you can create a proposal on your wiki user page. That's our wiki's sandbox. Keep in mind that since everyone sees order in different ways that we'll likely add to the Quest page as opposed to changing/removing. Granted some things may afford renaming... Serving the Inquisition starts and is carried out in/around the Inquisition temple in Thylisium; it's available to any character following the shadow campaign. It's a 5-part quest, although I would be interested to know if your log entries for the last 3 parts are bugged (mine appear under an unrelated quest named 'Holdup'). The 4th/5th part of this chain is the shadow counterpart to a light quest (I forget the name...) Good plan Schot; you can now see my suggestion here: ZGold's user page Edit: suggestion for new class quest page layout also on my user page Edited July 29, 2009 by ZGold Link to comment
Zeno 2 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Mmmm... Now I realise what you meant... I warned you that a screen is better than a zillion words! At a first sight, I like the side quest distribution, and I don't like the "single quest" category (which means nothing for me). About the class quest suggestion... I feel we can get to an even better layout, but that's a good start. Anyway, I expressed only my feelings, so I've got to think a little bit about all it though before giving any serious reason/argument about it Link to comment
ZGold 0 Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Pictures > language barriers Hmm, my idea with the 'single' quests category was so that if people want just one-stage quests (rather than chain quests) they could easily look them up. It might need renaming though - I'm open to suggestions. The class quest layout isn't too polished as I'm kinda new to the wiki coding (what the heck is with the %'s to align tables horizontally:)) I'll probably poke at it more later, but again, I'm open to suggestions Link to comment
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