Stamina

[Rllulium 0]

So yeah, I can't hold back this opinion anymore. I have been thinking about it for a while and for every little fact I fond out about this attribute I cannot seem to do anything but dislike it. Let's take a look at my thoughts...

 

If we are level 200 and place 200 points in Stamina, that will yield us 200% Average Combat Art Regeneration Time. Most characters have 900% ACART at level 200, which equals the gain from the points plased in stamina with -18,2% Regeneration Time. This value will NOT scale. (The Shadow Warrior has more then 900% and will thus benefit less)

 

Shall we compare it to the other Attributes?

• 200 points in Strength would give us 160 Attack Value and some Weapon Damage.
  
• 200 points in Vitality would easlily give us 4000 Health above 200 Health Regeneration per second ( I cannot set a fixed value here, but Vitality seems to give above 20 health per point in Vitality at level 200).
  
• 200 points in Dexterity would give us 200 Defense Value, 60 Attack Value and some Weapon Damage.
  
• 200 points in Intelligence would give us 200 Spell Resistance and some Weapon Damage.
  
• 200 points in Willpower would give us 200 Spell Resistance.
  

The above makes, in my opinion, the gain from putting points into Stamina seem fairly weak. The problem is the fact that Stamina does not scale. With that I mean that it adds to the base value that is then modified by all regen time modifiers, which in other words means that it it's impact upon regeneration speed is entirely dependent on other regeneration modifers, so that it always remains a fixed negative percentual value.

 

One can argue that the gain is large enough to justify the point spending on characters that have regeneration problems, but I simply cannot agree. Getting around it by getting that little extra regen elsewhere and spending these points in, for example, some more damage or some more health just seems more appealing.

 

Discuss

Edited August 16, 2009 by Rllulium

[Barsby 0]

It's all relative, isn't it? I'm playing devil's advocate here, not just arguing because it's an online forum and that's how people generally behave.

 

Now, I'm new to the game and haven't a character over level 40, but I have haunted the forums for a bit, so keep in mind that I'm working on forum knowledge here

 

I recently saw a post from someone saying they have 88k health @ level 160ish and believe they'll crack 100khp and 4k/sec regen at level 200.

Based on that, is there any point putting point in vit? 4% more hp and 5% more regen?

 

But if say your character was a low hp type and was only pushing (picking random numbers here for easy math!) 40k max health, then pushing vit is a 10% boost and a lot more worthwhile. With 20k health, it's a 20% boost and sounds fantastic.

 

Now, using your numbers, if a level 200 character has 900% avg combat art regen and can pick up an additional 200% with max stam, doesn't that seem a reasonable gain in comparison?

The logical extension of this argument is exactly the one you disagreed with - if you are likely to have good regen, stam isn't all that hot. The worse your ACART is, the more impact stam will have.

[soldats 0]

it is all relative, but let me present a strong case for sta

 

where do you find the greatest source of dmg?

from using Combat Arts.

 

how do you increase the damage of Combat Arts?

by eating more runes

 

how do you balance dmg vs regen times?

by controlling how many runes you eat- unless you have a way to reduce regen, which is by adding sta.

 

why add sta when str or dex or int can increase your dmg?

because those att DO NOT help you gain the benefits of SCALING mods on Combat Arts.

the only way to increase their scaling mods is to eat more runes or use +ca, which increases regen time, but sta allows for greater flexibility.

 

so sta increases dmg, scaling mods.

 

str increases dmg, atk value

dex increases dmg, atk/def value

int increases dmg, spell intensity

 

the choice is yours, but I think clearly, that sta beats all those 3 att easily. I believe that you can get higher dmg from eating runes than adding in str/dex/int...and as I've said before, you gain another bonus by raising your scaling mods

 

was going to write a guide on sta after my wil/spell resistance guide...but I'll get to it eventually...

[Rllulium 0]

The logical extension of this argument is exactly the one you disagreed with - if you are likely to have good regen, stam isn't all that hot. The worse your ACART is, the more impact stam will have.

This is not exactly true... Stamina grants exactly the same gain to all characters (As a percentage). The only reasonable way to put this argument is comparing the difference between a character which is already several CA levels above the penalty cap to one that can eat or gear a numbar of whole levels more. The latter would, as Soldats pointed out, be able to recieve bonuses to damage and scaling mods.

 

Another problem that I see with the Attribute is that it grants a percentual gain. While other attributes grant flat values that are instantly useful on the level that you get them, Stamina needs to build up to be useful. The more points you put in it, the higher the percent, which means that Stamina is "better" across all level with 100 points in it than 50.

[soldats 0]

The logical extension of this argument is exactly the one you disagreed with - if you are likely to have good regen, stam isn't all that hot. The worse your ACART is, the more impact stam will have.

This is not exactly true... Stamina grants exactly the same gain to all characters (As a percentage). The only reasonable way to put this argument is comparing the difference between a character which is already several CA levels above the penalty cap to one that can eat or gear a numbar of whole levels more. The latter would, as Soldats pointed out, be able to recieve bonuses to damage and scaling mods.

 

Another problem that I see with the Attribute is that it grants a percentual gain. While other attributes grant flat values that are instantly useful on the level that you get them, Stamina needs to build up to be useful. The more points you put in it, the higher the percent, which means that Stamina is "better" across all level with 100 points in it than 50.

 

 

that's a good point as well, but who plans on being level 40 forever? who plans on being level 100 forever?

 

that's like saying you only want to drive at max, 100kph in a ferrari....

[Rllulium 0]

that's a good point as well, but who plans on being level 40 forever? who plans on being level 100 forever?

 

that's like saying you only want to drive at max, 100kph in a ferrari....

I'm just saying that the goal isn't really the major thing here... it's the journey. I wouldn't wan't to play a character that's not going to be viable until level 200. You wan't your build to work all the way there. I wouldn't wan't to drive a car that takes 5 minutes to accelerate to maximum speed.

But then again I cannot say that the difference that Stamina makes can make or break a build.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Rllulium

[gogoblender 3,068]

Most builds ever created by most peeps won't go over 100. Speccing for something higher than that can be seen as being a bad decision, if not lacking honest heurism, if someone is really not intending to go higher in levels.

 

If you have someone who only has a limited amount of time, speccing from 1 - 100 is a reality and if you "own" that reality, truly grok it as an honest reflection of personal time, interest and most importantly devotion to a single build, then you can build better by knowing in advance the expected pre-planned lifetime of your build.

 

Stamina works well for those levels, especially if you're not getting regen from anywhere else on your build.

 

Here, let's spin this out another way...

 

What kind of builds would profit out of putting all points into Stamina?

 

 

gogo

[Zinsho 0]

What kind of builds would profit out of putting all points into Stamina?

 

To flip that around to no points in stamina... a pure left-click build. BFG... Melee TG... etc. They lose nothing from bad regen times since they get all their damage from regular attacks. An Area of Effect TG might gain more from INT than from STA for a similar reason, he might be based on a CA, however his 15s cooldown allows a lot of leeway in calculating regen times. You don't want/need extremely low regen times on him, regardless of how possible it is, since you have 2 AoEs you can alternate between.

[soldats 0]

zin is right on one thing: any characters relying on cooldowns does not benefit as much from sta than all other characters.

in fact, I'm changing my att distribution to reflect that. no more vit for me on any characters. yes, that sounds crazy, but even in hc, I don't need it anymore, seeing as how little it truly benefits me...vs sta

[Rllulium 0]

I feel like we're floating away a little here... To begin with, I do not know where the argument came up that any build without Stamina has "bad regen". That is rather the opposite of what I have been trying to push through. As I see it, either you have a build that does not need much regen help, then Stamina is out of consideration and many other regen modifiers can be taken lightly. Then you can play a build heavily dependent on regen, in which case you pick up alot of gear and Skills to support this. If you are doing the latter, you may wan't to use your Attributes for something else than more regen, allowing you to focus less on what that attribute grant when gearing and placing skillpoints and go more heavily for -regen. And it is here that I feel like Stamina gets shafted. If I do a build like this and it ends up with very little, for example, health, I can put points into Vitality and recieve a healthincrease that is percentually larger then it would be on a character that already has plenty of health. With Stamina, it doesnt work that way. It will grant it's unscaling negative percentage and that's it. It cannot really "compensate" for bad regen in any situation, while the other Attributes are fully capable of being used this way.

[soldats 0]

let me ask you this, then....

 

what Combat Arts do NOT benefit from stamina?

 

the only ones that really stand out[and by that, I mean those in frequent use...making a case for propelled levitation or other infrequently used Combat Arts will only weaken any opposition to my point here...]

 

icy e.

fiery e.

 

...

that's great. 2.

 

 

I think that's sufficient to say that unless you're playing a tg, and a source warden tg at that, sta is going to benefit you more than str/dex/int.

 

I welcome any other attempts to derail sta's usefulness...

[Zinsho 0]

Well Combat Alert as well. (15s cooldown with scaling duration) And a pure melee TG wouldn't benefit because he doesn't need any CAs (well unless you keep combat alert as a CA and not a buff)

 

Dust Devil wouldn't benefit as much, nor GGT. Acute mind either probably... Totem might but might not.

 

Divine Protection/Dashing Alacrity wouldn't benefit as much either... In other words for the most part the buff-esque CAs.

 

Totem being the only other pure offence CA I can think of off the top of my head.

 

 

I'm not saying STA isn't worthwhile, however it isn't the ultimate end all solution. Then again, the other factor that still needs to be accounted for is the interplay between:

 

STA, Aspect Focus, Concentration (And -Regen from belts/smith arts), -Aspect Regen on Gear etc.

 

If in the long run STA has less of an effect than those factors it might not be nearly as useful as it would if it had a high value/factor therein.

 

On the other hand VIT stacks well with Constitution, since both complement one another.

 

INT helps for Spell damage and intensity, which on a Caster can be very useful (since it can increase damage quickly by overcoming resistance).

 

Dex/Str have their uses with the associated weapons (Dex benefiting def as well which is useful)

 

Willpower gives spell resist (less debuffs), as well as Shield energy for those with energy shields (less useful for others of course).

 

I wouldn't say any one stat has an overwhelming advantage, especially if it turns out that stats work like in S1 where the various stats have hidden bonuses to elemental damage (I haven't seen evidence of this, but is it possible?), then taking another attribute could have a clear benefit for optimizing damage.

[soldats 0]

but nowhere else in the game can you receive scaling mod bonuses other than by eating more runes, and to incur less penalty, you need to bring regen times down.

 

no other att is going to help you out...

 

for instance, my friend mo shopped some very very nice amulets with -aspect regen. so...with about 4 of those amulets and a bevy of nice -regen gear, I was able to eat 30 runes into all my Combat Arts, bringing up my scaling mod bonuses up[as well as increasing damage] and STILL drop my regen time from .7 to .4sec.

 

let me say that again. ATE 30 runes[increase dmg/mod bonuses] and DROPPED from .7 to .4sec. oh, on top of that, I also added 60%experience per kill, bringing me to 120.1%...without ep and without slowing my kill speed[in fact, increasing my kill speed].

 

that shouldn't happen normally, but with all the +sta gear I was packing from my shopper and the -regen from mo's shopper, I was able to achieve this.

 

 

 

 

I might as well add to the list the less oft used skeletal f. to the cooldown list. and zin's example of totem. if you use those Combat Arts, sta is not for you....

[Rllulium 0]

I'm not saying STA isn't worthwhile, however it isn't the ultimate end all solution. Then again, the other factor that still needs to be accounted for is the interplay between:

 

STA, Aspect Focus, Concentration (And -Regen from belts/smith arts), -Aspect Regen on Gear etc.

 

If in the long run STA has less of an effect than those factors it might not be nearly as useful as it would if it had a high value/factor therein.

And this is exactly what I am getting at. Staminas effect on regen times in moot compared to the regen skills.

 

but nowhere else in the game can you receive scaling mod bonuses other than by eating more runes, and to incur less penalty, you need to bring regen times down.

 

no other att is going to help you out...

This argument is a bit strange. Neither can, for example, any other Attribute than Willpower grant Spell Resistance. Just having exclusive bonuses does not make a Attribute good, it is how these they compare to others.

 

for instance, my friend mo shopped some very very nice amulets with -aspect regen. so...with about 4 of those amulets and a bevy of nice -regen gear, I was able to eat 30 runes into all my Combat Arts, bringing up my scaling mod bonuses up[as well as increasing damage] and STILL drop my regen time from .7 to .4sec.

 

let me say that again. ATE 30 runes[increase dmg/mod bonuses] and DROPPED from .7 to .4sec. oh, on top of that, I also added 60%experience per kill, bringing me to 120.1%...without ep and without slowing my kill speed[in fact, increasing my kill speed].

 

that shouldn't happen normally, but with all the +sta gear I was packing from my shopper and the -regen from mo's shopper, I was able to achieve this.

Excuse me for accusing you for bringing in faulty arguments here. I have said time after time: Stamina does not scale. If you equip tons of -regen, the benefit you get from your Stamina remains the same as if you has none. If you where to claim that it was the Stamina that gave most of the negative regen, that would be a completly different matter, but as it stands now that is not possible. The most -regen you can ever get from Stamina is -30%; at level 200 with 401 points crammed into the Attribute. Now, even if you had that in your example, you would not be able to read 30 runes and still see a reduction in regen times. Standalone from the arguent, I think you'll have to accept that your example is invalid for the usefulness of Stamina. -30% is simply not enough to even reduce 0.7 to 0.4.

[soldats 0]

that example was from my 138 tg

 

I'll bring up some screens from my 150 seraphim who does not use -regen gear and she has around +300 sta from gear/+100 through leveling. you'll see what it can do to regen times my friend.

 

 

also keep in mind that your example is flawed as well....being that you only account for the sta you use from the att gained through leveling.

+sta on gear[as a secondary mod...for example, an amulet with +13ca/+31sta], can grant you the ability to keep using +ca gear or eating runes

 

 

I would also disagree with you on wil/spell resist...short example, you can gain +spell resist% through gear. wil adds to the base spell resist[arguably, without that base resist, +% would do nothing. I've got a miniguide on another forum about the use of wil/spell res]

and the game as well as any other game tends to favor exclusivity of properties...the rarer, the better.

 

I don't see where you claim that I claimed the scaling benefits of sta. I claimed that increasing sta allows for more rune consumption allowing for scaling mod bonuses from Combat Arts.

 

 

[edit]

in my haste, I didn't realize that I don't have duplicates of my gear I'm wearing on my seraphim...meaning I can't unsocket my gear without the chance of losing my +13all skill/+30 sta amulets that are in every piece. so there's nothing I can compare it to.

 

however, I do have access to a naked 200 seraphim that I will attempt to show the benefits of dmg vs regen time using sta and int for flaring nova.

after dinner, of course.

Edited August 17, 2009 by soldats

[Rllulium 0]

that example was from my 138 tg

 

I'll bring up some screens from my 150 seraphim who does not use -regen gear and she has around +300 sta from gear/+100 through leveling. you'll see what it can do to regen times my friend.

I am quite aware about what Stamina can do. I simply do not consider it enough. A level 150 char would get roughly -40% regen from that Stamina value. I feel pretty confident that such numbers can be gotten cheaper at level 150 then gearing for 300 Stamina.

 

also keep in mind that your example is flawed as well....being that you only account for the sta you use from the att gained through leveling.

+sta on gear[as a secondary mod...for example, an amulet with +13ca/+31sta], can grant you the ability to keep using +ca gear or eating runes

Well... as I am sure that you are aware, each point placed or gotten from gear to Stamina grants less negative regen then the point before it. So if you plan to gear for Stamina you are reducing the effect of the hard points you have in the Attribute.

 

I would also disagree with you on wil/spell resist...short example, you can gain +spell resist% through gear. wil adds to the base spell resist[arguably, without that base resist, +% would do nothing. I've got a miniguide on another forum about the use of wil/spell res]

and the game as well as any other game tends to favor exclusivity of properties...the rarer, the better.

I just picked Willpower as a example, I do not favor that Attribute in any specific way. But, as you said, all other ways of acquiring Spell Resistance are % increases, making it exclusive.

Also I think that it is a bit odd to put that last sentence like that. A property can be really, really rare, it has to provide good benefits to be sought after, of which I think you-know-what.

To round of this section I should mention that Stamina is not the exclusive provider of Base Average Combat Art Regeneration Time. (Which I cover Here)

 

I don't see where you claim that I claimed the scaling benefits of sta. I claimed that increasing sta allows for more rune consumption allowing for scaling mod bonuses from Combat Arts.

 

 

[edit]

in my haste, I didn't realize that I don't have duplicates of my gear I'm wearing on my seraphim...meaning I can't unsocket my gear without the chance of losing my +13all skill/+30 sta amulets that are in every piece. so there's nothing I can compare it to.

 

however, I do have access to a naked 200 seraphim that I will attempt to show the benefits of dmg vs regen time using sta and int for flaring nova.

after dinner, of course.

And while you have dinner, I shall go to sleep. Such is the world.

[Zinsho 0]

Well I have the simplest of factors right now:

 

I use specific aspect values since the moment you have Aspect Focuses or -Regen: Aspect the ACART becomes sum(Aspect Regen times)/3

 

Armor Penalty = Regen Time * Armor Penalty% (so at 100% it's fine, at 150% it's 1.5x longer etc)

Regen Time = (1 - Focus Value) / Sta Regen Factor

(Which provides a new Aspect Regen Time (using F for Focus here, to differentiate) of: 1/Regen Time)

 

-Regen Time (yellow mod but it should stack with blue mods too I believe... I'd need to socket to combine them to see) works out as:

Regen Time: (1 - Regen Time %) / FCART

which gives a new FCART of 1/Regen Time once again

 

It isn't quite accurate, however it does come quite close.

 

Armor is just approximate, but it does seem to fit that way (since 200% Armor Penalty = 2x regen time)

 

Focus Value stems from this data:

 

392% Stamina value (approximate based on calculations to obtain it)

27.7% , 55.4% and 50.9% Aspect Focus -Regens, giving the following FCART:

542.9%, 879.6% and 798.5% Which are quite accurate

 

As to -Regen Time I had the following:

-19.5% Regen time (with no other values changing this was added)

 

Pre item: FCART = 959.2, post: 1170.1 which is quite close to the theoretical value (off by a bit much but I'm sure I had it closer earlier somehow... I lost a value somewhere by changing my spreadsheet for another calculation)

 

 

And if someone wants a full value-set for calculating the potential formula:

Devout Guardian Focus: -63.7%

Lost Fusion Focus: -55%

Source Warden Focus: -61.9%

 

-Regeneration Time: -27.6%

-Regen: Source Warden: -30.9

 

Devout Aspect Regen: 1522.9%

Lost Fusion Aspect Regen: 1227.2%

Source Warden Aspect Regen: 1919%

 

Armor Penalty: 105.8% Assuming I don't have any hidden penalties... which I've seen from some armors before.

 

Level 65

No points into stamina (+27 from gear)

253 listed Stamina, 56.8% Survival Bonus

(These 3 seem to provide a base Stamina Regen Factor of 423% if my math is right)

 

 

And as a second value for extra testing:

Source Warden Aspect Regen: 1611.9% when -Source Regen is decreased to 13.4%

 

Rather than make multiple edits in case someone misses the addition:

 

I am certain about the Armor Value as well:

 

Level 1 seraphim:

100% Sta Regen modifier

Wings give 7.3% Armor Penalty

93.1% ACART

 

107.3/100 = 107.3, 1/107.3 (to convert back to ACART) = 93.198......

Therefore the factor fits right there.

Since that one works and Aspect Focus work there is a specific base point from which to calculate the other 2... I've got a few more ideas to figure out the factors, but those are for tomorrow or later, it's getting late (Level 2 Toon, figure out how acart stacks with level 1/2 Focus, to make sure they work independently)

[Rllulium 0]

Rather than make multiple edits in case someone misses the addition:

 

I am certain about the Armor Value as well:

 

Level 1 seraphim:

100% Sta Regen modifier

Wings give 7.3% Armor Penalty

93.1% ACART

 

107.3/100 = 107.3, 1/107.3 (to convert back to ACART) = 93.198......

Therefore the factor fits right there.

Since that one works and Aspect Focus work there is a specific base point from which to calculate the other 2... I've got a few more ideas to figure out the factors, but those are for tomorrow or later, it's getting late (Level 2 Toon, figure out how acart stacks with level 1/2 Focus, to make sure they work independently)

Heh. This is exactly the kind of research I attemted in This Thread. Of everything I tried, the only thing that did not provide tooltip regen change were multiple buffs, due to additive regen stacking. While I certainly want these things tested, I do wonder why this is relevant to this thread specificly. The stacking properties of regen modifiers does not change the value of Stamina in any way.

[lalala123 0]

So is it pointless to take Vitality? Instead, just take Stamina to pump up buffs as much as possible? I'm trying to play a HC High Elf btw.

[Zinsho 0]

It's indirectly relevant since if we can determine the formula that governs regeneration time we can figure out just how much of an effect Stamina has on the whole. Since that is where the conversation was leading... just how beneficial is stamina vs other types of regen factors. We can't determine that without determining the equation that governs regeneration as a whole.

 

Of course if your opinion is that it should be separate I'll move them into a new thread for the purpose of determining regeneration time formulas, rather than integrate it here.

[Dobri 55]

If I may interject, attribute distribution is also a matter of personal preference. For example, Soldats likes taking stamina alongside vitality, which is the same thing I do, unless I go for all-vit distribution. Other people like pumping up their respective attributes based on their builds and are biased toward them... This is an aspect of this debate that can't simply be dismissed

Edited August 17, 2009 by Dobri

[Rllulium 0]

It's indirectly relevant since if we can determine the formula that governs regeneration time we can figure out just how much of an effect Stamina has on the whole. Since that is where the conversation was leading... just how beneficial is stamina vs other types of regen factors. We can't determine that without determining the equation that governs regeneration as a whole.

 

Of course if your opinion is that it should be separate I'll move them into a new thread for the purpose of determining regeneration time formulas, rather than integrate it here.

On that note, it would be interesting to see how much +Stamina and say, -Aspect Regen one can find on items of the same level.

[gogoblender 3,068]

One can argue that the gain is large enough to justify the point spending on characters that have regeneration problems, but I simply cannot agree.

 

 

lol

 

One of my first HC plat toons was a Dryad Ranged. Hugely dependant on regens. I took her up to about level 79 with all Attributes as Dexterity before I killed her because I wasn't happy with the Ca Regen time on the Darting Assault.

 

She was having regen problems.

 

I then rerolled her as a pure Stamina build, and boom, a lot more of the regen was there, the damage increased because I could fire off more rounds per second, and she's still sitting pretty up in Plat.

 

Highly pleased with her, still am, and she's a definite improvement over the Dexterity (At least for me because I believe in quick hits, fastest regens possible).

 

So I tried two attributes, gave up on pure Dexterity and found Stamina to be better for her, with better damage coming from the increased regen and quicker attacks, and the sockets now cleared for other goodies.

 

Are you saying I could have chosen a better attribute or done something better (skills wise?) to improve the regens on the build rather than reroll as a pure Stamina build? Is there something specific that you suggest?

 

 

 

 

gogo

[Rllulium 0]

lol

 

One of my first HC plat toons was a Dryad Ranged. Hugely dependant on regens. I took her up to about level 79 with an all Attributes as Dexterity before I killed her because I wasn't happy with the Ca Regen time on the Darting Assault. I then rerolled her as a pure Stamina build, and boom, a lot more of the regen was there, the damage increased because I could fire off more rounds per second, and she's still sitting pretty up in Plat.

 

So I tried two atributes, gave up on pure Dexterity and found Stamina to be better for her, with better damage coming from the increased regen, and the sockets now cleared for other goodies.

 

Are you saying I could have chosen a better attribute or done something better to improve the regens on the build? Is there something specific that you can suggest?

 

I'm open to ideas.

 

 

gogo

I can see why placing points in Dexterity would not be a large gain since the Dryad already gets so much Dex automaticly. But I really cannot se how Stamina would be a large damage increase for a character using weaponbased CAs, since one can leave these CAs at rank 1 and still enjoy good damage while having really low regentimes.

[gogoblender 3,068]

At one point I was able to get my regen down to 0.5 for a Darting Assault level 66.

 

I'd have to open up the build again, to see where it is now...but bringing it down from 0.6 to 0.5 doubled increase of kill speed provided I could hit things.

 

At 0.5 I was getting two shots per second, at 0.6 only one.

 

I didn't need a lot, but the Stamina helped with those few points and double the damage is serious business ^^ Dyrad damage, since it's instant, is beautifully affected by so small a minutiae. I'm thinking no other CA out there will double the damage with a change from .6 to .5 ^^

 

Was one day hoping to get it down to 0.2, but lowest before I got bored with build was 0.4

 

oh well

 

 

gogo