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How to Become a Demi-God in Sacred 2

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Great analysis :) I will most certainly test that when I reinstall the game. A damn good work, chattius. Hands down.

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Virtual Hitpoints

If you take away life leech attacks and some combat arts with strange DoT, then you can consider multichannel mitigation as virtual hitpoints. If you have 50% mitigation you can take double the damage till you die, at 66.7% mitigation you can take 3 times the damage, at 80% 5 times, at 90% 10times the damage:

 

virtual_life = (life *100)/(100-mitigation%))

 

So you start to wonder if you still need constitution. It looks like a waste if you can reach mitigation values above 60% without toughness.

 

So my question would be, if I have have only one choose: toughness or constitution, what would be the breakpoint in mitigation to take toughness and not constitution.

 

If we put mitigation from toughness at 15% and say that constitution doubles the hitpoints:

 

Constitution:

virtual_life = (life*2*100)/(100-mitigation)

Toughness:

virtual_life =(life*100)/(100-mitigation-15)

 

So Constitution is better if:

(life*2*100)/(100-mitigation)>(life*100)/(100-mitigation-15)

2*(100-mitigation-15)>(100-mitigation)

100-mitigation-30 > 0

70 > mitigation

So if the mitigation without toughness is below 70% constitution would be the better choose.

 

The calculation becomes more important if the mitigation addition which is now undampended will get dampened to never reach 100 in a possible patch.

 

Perhaps someone can do a diagram at which mitigation% and which % of extra hitpoints from constitution constitution wins.

 

Of cause this calculation ignores that constitution gives in combat regeneration and that the extra armour from toughness gets more and more important the less damages passes because of mitigation.

 

I did this question because of a melee-dragon mage my daughter is playing:

Dragon mages have no combat arts which use a weapon, so staff lore, tactics, damage lore and alchemy to hit and damage bosses was a must, 3 buffs and concentration and you have only room for armour lore and 1 more defensive skill.

 

Your analysis leaves out 1 or 2 things.

 

1) DoT. I have noticed that some attacks which do damage, do MORE damage - higher numbers that the original hit - via DoT. The best example is ice elf's Frost Flare. From opponents, it is Poison (and Fire) I think about the most, though bleeding damage counts too. There is a stat that modifies this (Will Power), but no skills (unless we count spell resistance?). More HP is less meaningful (unless your regen is insanely high - High Elf or Dryad), becasue without a high level of resistance to DoT, the HP goes down to quickly

 

2) Character HP goes up every level. Armor and mitigation does not. HP can be improved by spending points in Vitality. Armor and mitigation cannot.

 

The best graphical chart would show Armor, Mitigation, and HP on a 3 axis chart, but again, this would only somewhat account for DoT

Edited by SolomonGrundy

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Thats why I left out DoT as I said in first line:

The AddOn has some beasts which do strange DoT which seem to ignore mitigation (the new direct damage modifier?), then more hitpoints would be better.

x% Life leech attacks do more damage if you have more hitpoints, but you die after same number of hits, because it are % of your maximum life.

 

I did this calculation mainly for planing a long time character, not much time to play. So if mitigation gets dampened to never reach 100% in a possible patch, I wanted to know which values of mitigation would make it useful if I can only do constitution or toughness.

 

Currently I think that only Serafim and TG should take toughness instead of constitution to be prepared for a possible fix of mitigation.

 

Another factor in virtuality hitpoints are melee fighters: life leech works on real life, so 100 life leech would be 1000 virtual at 90% mitigation, 100hp regen per second would be 1000 virtual, but not in combat since no constitution.

 

I was choosing constitution for my melee dragon mage now. I think that I can do 45% allchannel mitigation with armour. I would need every socket with mitigation jewels to beat constitution, greatly reducing my CTH and damage with staves because of niob-smith. But I wear every piece of mitigation which I can get without doing too much compromises.

 

The AddOn has halved +allSkills jewels, but better orbs: Unique orbs can have a resistance and a skill like toughness, or double resistances, like 2 times fire, or fire and ice but no skill. All this makes the planing even more tricky.

 

But since I had to start somewhere, and skills are chosen quite early in playing I calculated with this rough numbers do play already and do the fine tuning with equipment while winning experience with the character.

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The AddOn has halved +allSkills jewels, but better orbs: Unique orbs can have a resistance and a skill like toughness, or double resistances, like 2 times fire, or fire and ice but no skill. All this makes the planing even more tricky.

 

But since I had to start somewhere, and skills are chosen quite early in playing I calculated with this rough numbers do play already and do the fine tuning with equipment while winning experience with the character.

 

by orbs I assume you mean relics?

Sounds like a good change. relics were undervalued in pre-patch, and now it seems like they add more value (not just general skills).

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damage number from a thread in german forum

 

armour-damage, monster shows 71 damage in last kill

446 - 20

430 - 21

400 - 22

356 - 24

351 - 24

326 - 26

305 - 27 - 36 (krit)

295 - 28

279 - 29 - 38 (krit)

261 - 30-------5times

240 - 32

211 - 35-------4times neutral

201 - 37

185 - 39

166 - 41

155 - 43----------------trible neutral armour

126 - 48 - 62 (krit)

110 - 52

105 - 53--------------double neutral armour

89 - 58

81 - 60

52 - 71-----------------------71 is damage shown in last kill

36 - 79

31 - 82 - 99 (krit)

15 - 92

 

armour-damage, monster is 99 damage

51 - 112

79 - 99------------------99 is damage shown in last kill

161 - 74-----double

243 - 60-----trible

 

So if you look at the line where the received damage is same as the damage shown in last kill by the enemy and define the armour there is neutral-armour (it seems to have no effect on your received damage compared to original damage).

 

Then having double the neutral armour is lowering your received damage by 25%, 3 times the neutral armour is reducing by 40%. So if mitigation is calculated first, before the armour kicks in, than mitigation lowers the damage and therefor the needed neutral armour. So your armour has way better effect too if you have mitigation.

 

Calculating with fractions to find a formula, I am proud of this, because I found the laws using my ancient brain which was trained long ago to calculate without a claculator:

 

2 times the neutral armour: 75% damage, 1/4 lower

3 times the neutral armour: 60% damage, 2/5 lower

4 times the neutral armour: 50% damage, 3/6 lower

5 times the neutral armour: 43% damage, 4/7 would be 57% less, fits

6 times the neutral armour: 37% damage, 5/8 would be 62.5%, close to 37.5

7 times the neutral armour: 32% damage, 6/9 would be 66.6%, 33.3% would be it, rounding error probably

8 times the neutral armour: 30% damage, 7/10 lower, fits

 

(X-times_neutral_armour -1) / (X-times_neutral_armour+2) would be the general formula then.

 

So with a hell of time I probably have to re-do my calculation what is better: toughness or constitution, because toughness lowers the damage in two ways in the armour calculation too: giving more armour while reducung the neutral armour.

Lower neutral armour is obviously good and not bad in the above calculations.

 

I hope someone with better english knowledge translates that all in something people can understand. I couldn't find a good word for neutral armpour for example:

neutral armour, base armour, just-even-armour, ....

Edited by chattius

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"neutral armor" is just armor vs physical damage - that is "non elemental" armor. In difficult levels other than niob, this is the most common form of damage (and armor). In niob, enemies do far more elemental damage.

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I knew that people wouldn't understand what I am trying to say:

If an enemy does a fixed weapon damage of a single damage type -it doesn't matter if physical, fire , cold, ... - and you test out the damage you get with different armour numbers, then you will get an armour value at which the received damage is same as the damage shown in last kill statistics. I define this armour value as neutral armour. I could name it Banach-armour, because Banach did a nice fixed point theorem.

I just needed a name for it.

 

For mixed damage there can be up to 5 different neutral armours per enemy, for each damage type one.

 

Neutral armour is a function of received damage, it changes with the damage you get.

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Because of an illness in my family I can't play for next weeks, so I can't test myself. Doing this question in lunch break at work:

 

Is the damage reduction from toughness same as damage mitigation, sor do they have just similiar affects but don't stack, but multiply.

 

Will 80% Mitigation +20% reduction from toughness be 100% or rather .8*.2= 16% damage equivalent to only 84% mitigation?

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Given that the formula (X-times_neutral_armour -1) / (X-times_neutral_armour+2) is correct, then having 0 resistance against a damage would result in (0-1)/(0+2) = -0.5. So all damage you get would be raised by (maximal) 50%.

 

Or the other way around: combat arts with very high damage, like bosskiller with high regen, BFG, Acute Mind boosted staves ... would result in a low (close to 0) x_times_neutral_armour at the enemy. So they can get up to 50% higher damage if the enemy has no or low protection compared to your damage.

 

Conclusions:

Choosing an attack with a damage type your opponent has no resists can greatly boost your damage.

If you have no armour against a damage type and get hit, you take up to 50% more damage.

 

To be done by nice people:

  1. Still not confirmed if reduced damage from toughness adds directly to damage mitigation from equipment/buffs, so post your results.
  2. Still not confirmed if mitigation and damage reduction are done before armour is brought in.
  3. How are the maths for armour piercing, if it sets the enemy armour to zero, shouldn't have armour piercing a double effect then: damage not only not lowered by enemy armour, but also boosted by 50% because of the above formula. The armour piercing stuff probably needs an own topic. But I will wait till I get some results from others, because I can't test stuff for weeks.

Edited by chattius

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To find some nice word for the neutral armour:

If people agree I will name it fixed point armour. And since it is a function depending on damage: FPA(damage).

 

FPA(71) = 52, if you would have 52 armour an enemy dealing 71 damage will do 71 damage.

FPA(99)=72, if you would have 72 armour an enemy dealing 99 damage will do 99 damage.

 

Armour\FPA(damage)=x

 

So the ABDR (armour based damage reduction) would be: ABDR=(x-1)\(x+2)

some numbers:

x = 0 if you have no armour, so the formula will do -0.5 which means 50% more damage.

x=1 then ABDR = 0 and you receive all the damage unmodified, because your armour is just the FPA

x=4 then ABDR = 0.5. If you have 4 times the FPA you receive only half the damage.

 

What is in my interest: I need more FPA values, not just the only 2 I have. So someone or myself is able to plot a graph of the function and may guess its formula. So if you stumble above some FPA numbers where the damage shown in last kill is the same that you got, please post it here. The enemy should do only physical damage for less confusion and you should add if you play bronce, silver, gold, .... in case the FBA numbers differ in the several diffuculty levels.

 

Thanks in advance

Edited by chattius

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How are the maths for armour piercing, if it sets the enemy armour to zero, shouldn't have armour piercing a double effect then: damage not only not lowered by enemy armour, but also boosted by 50% because of the above

 

well, that would be "double dipping" (americal expression for 2x the correct amount).

 

I have a 4th question: Is it possible to have a LESS than zero armor? There are abilities that lower 'resitance' (I'm thinking of Fiery Ember here), so waht happens when an enemy has no resistance to a damage type?

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Interesting:

If the coders prevented negative armour by capping it at 0 the 50% raise would be maximal.

 

If NOT, and I would consider this a bug, then it becomes tricky, even division by zero may occur if the negative armour is double the FPA. (Reason for a crash?). If the negative armour is in the intervall (-2FPA,0) then the damage is boosted, for 2FPA it would be division by zero, and if in (-infinity,-2FPA) it would turn out as a positive armour damage reduction which reduces the damage, funny affect.

 

I really hope they prevent negative armours.

 

My 3rd daughter will be at hospital for 4 more weeks, so none of my family currently has time to do some testing. If you would like to do some tests, report your results.

 

Edit: latest results: in the AddOn the (x-1)/(x+2) fits only in gold difficulty. In Niob having no armour does more than 3 times the damage on you.

Edit2: the very latest results: In niob it is close to (x-1)/(x+0.43077), so having no armour adds 100/0.43077 percent damage. The guess is that the formula is (x-1)/(x+b) for all difficulties. The calculation of the FPA is still a riddle.

Edited by chattius

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READ AT YOUR OWN RISC- DANGER MATHS!

 

 

 

Only for math freaks who have as much fun in finding formulas behind the game than in playing.

 

 

 

Newest results:

It seems the damage reduction formula is something like (x-1)/x-b). Where x=armour/FPA and b is a modifier dependant on monster level, character level and difficulty level.

So if doing a test with no armour (x=0) would give b. With known b and trying same monster with a bit more armour we would get the FPA for this monster level, char level and difficulty level.

There would be still 3 factors in the variable b, but by keeping 2 fixed and modifying only the third we could plot the function and try to guess a formula.

 

The practical use:

If armour piercing would be same as if the enemy would have no armour, than finding a formula for the b would allow to predict damage from damage piercing.

Edited by chattius

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READ AT YOUR OWN RISC- DANGER MATHS!

 

 

 

Only for math freaks who have as much fun in finding formulas behind the game than in playing.

 

 

 

Newest results:

It seems the damage reduction formula is something like (x-1)/x-b). Where x=armour/FPA and b is a modifier dependant on monster level, character level and difficulty level.

So if doing a test with no armour (x=0) would give b. With known b and trying same monster with a bit more armour we would get the FPA for this monster level, char level and difficulty level.

There would be still 3 factors in the variable b, but by keeping 2 fixed and modifying only the third we could plot the function and try to guess a formula.

 

The practical use:

If armour piercing would be same as if the enemy would have no armour, than finding a formula for the b would allow to predict damage from damage piercing.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking and I've finally hit a level where I could test this out. Check out this info:

 

I'm currently level 96 on my Shadow Warrior, build is here:

 

http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13069

 

Here's my stats at 96:

 

Defense: 1,492

Physical Armor: 3,860

Damage Mitigation - Physical: 35.4%

Toughness providing an additional 11.0%

 

My test subject was Holos, every difficulty level except Bronze:

 

Silver

 

Level 66

Attack: 1028

Tooltip Damage Range: 250-332

Lowest Hit: 39

Highest Hit: 185

Average Hit: 74

 

Gold

 

Level 111

Attack: 2632

Tooltip Damage Range: 451-592

Lowest Hit: 451

Highest Hit: 900

Average Hit: 598

 

Platinum

 

Level 112

Attack: 4537

Tooltip Damage Range: 481-630

Lowest Hit: 597

Highest Hit: 1214

Average: 824

 

Niob

 

Level 127

Attack: 9036

Tooltip Damage Range: 581-764

Lowest Hit: 2904

Highest Hit: 5089

Average Hit: 3779

 

Now pay exceptional attention to the difference between Gold and Plat despite the fact that at 96(I chose this level for this very reason) I've got him maxed at 111 on Gold and my SB has him at 112 on Plat. His tooltip damage range is very similar, what you would expect from a single level of difference. However, the damage numbers are quite different which proves that difficulty level adds to the formula.

 

The Niob info is insane and this was really the earliest I've been able to get to him without risking death. He still hits powerfully hard and my level difference shows that it definitely has a good bit to do with it. Now as I level up I'm going to record my stats versus his because at each level, I'm going to gain in a level and some defensive stats while he will stay the same until I reach that point that he matches my 16 levels of survival bonus(maybe 17 by the time they catch up). This should help give some final info needed to attempt to derive the formula.

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Interesting thing, not sure if anyone else has ever paid attention:

 

I hit 97 on my way to Holos a bit ago during one of my boss run sessions.

 

He's still 127 but his attack is now showing at 10,629 and his tooltip damage range is now 645-848. I didn't pay much attention to his damage on me this time around, figured I got quite a few more rounds with him before I level again. Either way this will still throw the numbers off, I'll edit in a bit when I kill him again here shortly.

 

Edit: Second time around he's got an attack of 9,036 and his tooltip damage range is 581-764. This is the same as the first time so I'm not sure what gave him the buff on the second attempt. Lowest hit this time was 2052, highest was 4612, average of 20 hits was 3431.

 

My stats of course changed a bit from leveling up, defense is 1576, physical armor 4044, physical mitigation 36.5%, toughness giving an additional 12.6%.

 

Ok, compiled info from levels 96-100:

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Level 96

Defense: 1492

Physical Armor: 3860

Damage Mitigation: Physical 35.4%

Toughness: 11%

 

Level 127

Attack: 9036

Tooltip Damage Range: 581-764

Lowest Hit: 2904

Highest Hit: 5089

Average Hit: 3779

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Level 97

Defense: 1576

Physical Armor: 4044

Damage Mitigation: Physical 36.5%

Toughness: 12.6%

 

Level 127

Attack: 9036

Tooltip Damage Range: 581-764

Lowest Hit: 2052

Highest Hit: 4612

Average Hit: 3431

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Level 98

Defense: 1586

Physical Armor: 4113

Damage Mitigation: Physical 36.5%

Toughness: 12.6%

 

Level 127

Attack: 9036

Tooltip Damage Range: 581-764

Lowest Hit: 2279

Highest Hit: 4345

Average Hit: 3196

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Level 99

Defense: 1595

Physical Armor: 4160

Damage Mitigation: Physical 36.5%

Toughness: 12.6%

 

Level 127

Attack: 9036

Tooltip Damage Range: 581-764

Lowest Hit: 2232

Highest Hit: 4095

Average Hit: 2938

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Level 100

Defense: 2034

Physical Armor: 4328

Damage Mitigation: Physical 36.5%

Toughness: 12.9%

 

Level 127

Attack: 9036

Tooltip Damage Range: 581-764

Lowest Hit: 1919

Highest Hit: 3761

Average Hit: 2611

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

At level 100 I was able to equip two upgrades, Helmet of Infinite Torment and Legwraps of the Dead. Both pieces were merely higher level upgrades of what I was already wearing but that explains the huge jump in Defense that you see there. I think those legs were the level 65 version, definitely enjoyed seeing both of those pieces drop as I consider them Best in Slot pieces(legs are a 3-way tie between Justice, Charon's and Dead).

Edited by Numerii

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I did a graph showing how your received damage depends on your armour. It is for a 150 level niob wolf doing 224 damage. You need 1750 armour at least to take a neutral 224 damage hit. Below 1750 armour the received damage is boosted by the formula up to 744 damage if you have no armour. You need more than 1750 armour to lower the damage of a 224 damage hit. This 1750 depend on the received damage, difficulty level, enemy level and probably your level too. So don't wonder if you take massive damage because you forgot to swap your relics when changing an area. No Armour can boost the received damage in niob by a factor 3 or more.

 

 

Rüstung = armour , Schaden = damage

German Posting with the damage/armour graph

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Nice job. Everything I've seen in this game in terms of defense: avoidance, mitigation, etc; the more it reminds me of the mechanics behind tanking in World of Warcraft. That graph of yours looks almost exactly like the one a guy created to show the diminishing returns on armor in WoW where the amount of armor needed to attain 50% mitigation was rather cheap, after that it became exponentially more difficult to raise your mitigation.

 

Of course in this game there obviously is no ceiling for the amount of mitigation one can obtain since it comes as a raw stat boosted by gear and Toughness. Still all of this could be used to determine the levels of defense a character would need in order to take on a fight "sans pots" so to speak.

 

Sadly though this seems to be nothing more than knowledge for the sake of knowledge, in my opinion they've made it too easy to achieve a "demi-god" level of defense in this game. The only real challenge is creating a character that has that defense while still possessing exceptional levels of killing power.

Edited by Numerii

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I'm going a Shadow Warrior run now. I'll be done in the next few days, but the playthrough with all these chars is pretty much the same and the result is the same.

 

Would you mind posting the gear of your Shadow Warrior? I'm trying to make a super suit for my Shadow Warrior smith (dual wield), for when I hit my 100 (if I get there...)

 

Armantin's shoulder, Denderan's Plan & Plate of Tomb (plus some other sets) give about 40 % damage mitigation.

Any ideas for optimal survival + extra slots ? I suppose I'll have to take a bargainer for some stuff?

 

atm using full denderan's.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

cheers!

Chareos Rantras

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I'm going a Shadow Warrior run now. I'll be done in the next few days, but the playthrough with all these chars is pretty much the same and the result is the same.

 

Would you mind posting the gear of your Shadow Warrior? I'm trying to make a super suit for my Shadow Warrior smith (dual wield), for when I hit my 100 (if I get there...)

 

Armantin's shoulder, Denderan's Plan & Plate of Tomb (plus some other sets) give about 40 % damage mitigation.

Any ideas for optimal survival + extra slots ? I suppose I'll have to take a bargainer for some stuff?

 

atm using full denderan's.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

cheers!

Chareos Rantras

 

Once you get to Platinum and the gear that drops is around level 100 you will occasionally find chest and shoulder items with all channel damage mitigation as a native stat. It requires Armor Lore Mastery to unlock. I have a nice level 120ish chest with +12% all channel DM and a silver and gold socket.

 

Also the 3-piece bonus for the Armantin's set is just over 1k armor in Niob. This is modified by Armor Lore so it's worth just over 4k armor once you have Armor Lore mastered.

 

Keep an eye out for Darwargon's Circlet and Tanit's Collar amulets. Both of them have damage mitigation on them.

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Once you get to Platinum and the gear that drops is around level 100 you will occasionally find chest and shoulder items with all channel damage mitigation as a native stat. It requires Armor Lore Mastery to unlock. I have a nice level 120ish chest with +12% all channel DM and a silver and gold socket.

 

Also the 3-piece bonus for the Armantin's set is just over 1k armor in Niob. This is modified by Armor Lore so it's worth just over 4k armor once you have Armor Lore mastered.

 

Keep an eye out for Darwargon's Circlet and Tanit's Collar amulets. Both of them have damage mitigation on them.

 

Aight, thx for help!

 

 

cheers!

Chareos Rantras

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To have amounts of armor on a Shadow Warrior use this gear: full Infernal Torment set with one Artamark's Star in each gold socket and rest of the pieces from the Armantin's set + Armor Lore & Toughness Mastery.

 

And of course get some of the unique relics that have great amounts of armor on them.

 

BTW Chareos, Armantin's shoulders doesn't spawn with Damage Mitigation in Ice and Blood.

 

AHA I'll keep that in mind, now to get my bargainer & EP toons going to find all the stuff ^^

 

 

cheers!

Chareos Rantras

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After having read through my last post, I would just disregard the whole post as it was quite useless and didn't contribute to anything of importance :drunkards:

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;)

 

Armor X = Damage reduction Y

 

Can we chart it now with the formulas Chattius has derived?

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You can do a graph in the case that it is niob difficulty and the enemy is dealing 234 damage.

 

Then it is like:

 

damage_received = damage_dealt*(1-(x-1)/(x+0.43077)) And x would be armour/1750.

 

If your armour would be 1750 then x-1 would be 0. So in this case damage_dealt would be same as damage_received.

If your armour would be 0 then you would receive damage_dealt*(1+1/0.43077)=damage_dealth*3.32 damage.

 

So damage-mitigation from armour would be in the special case that damage is 234 and in niob:

 

((armour/1750)-1)/((armour/1750)+0.43077)

 

For armour values below 1750 the mitigation would be negative: you will receive more damage than the enemy is actually doing. Should be possible to do a excel chart with this.

 

The general formula for other damage values would be like (armour/fpa-1)/(armour/fpa-b). You can calculate the b easily by being hit with no armour. The second variable fpa (fix point armour, the armour value for which damage_received= damage_dealt) can be calculated if you put on an armour piece. Then you can add more armor and can compare the actual values with the one from the formula.

Edited by chattius

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Im trying to find Soldats original post because I wanna see that. This look like a great Idea for when I wanna make a Temple Guardian because I always fail on him well I only played him once for my first character but still he seems pretty hard and all the other characters ill find a great build here on the forums. Nice write up! ;)

 

 

 

-Shadow.

Edited by ShadowsNitemare

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