Jump to content

The Sacred 2 Wiki...


Recommended Posts

To those here who add/edit the Sacred 2 Wiki page,

 

First off, I understand that you guys do what you do for the Sacred 2 Wiki for free, and I respect you for that, so please do not take offense to me mentioning a couple of things that I think are missing but absolutely should be there.

 

(If this is somewhere in the Wiki but I just didn't find it, then I apologize in advance!)

 

The biggest thing missing is... a clear explanation of what Attack and Defense is! This is very confusing for new players... There are many mods that include an increase in attack or defense (or decrease in opponents attack and opponents defense). The description in the manual for this is extremely vague... I'm sure I could do a search on this forum and find the answer, but this should be on the Wiki. I actually just tried to find it for myself on the Wiki, but couldn't find it. Attack and defense is only mentioned under Dexterity from what I could find, but no further explanantion of what Attack and Defense do. I see this as a HUGE oversight...

 

From what I've read and experienced, Attack is the base stat for your weapon's accuracy, Defense is the base stat for evasion. Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade Attack and Opponents Chance to Evade work like +Attack, Chance to Evade works like +Defense, just in different ways mathematically. All of these should have their own link and definition in the Wiki... I'm sure one of you could explain these much more eloquently than I just did. :twitch:

 

Along the same lines, there is nothing on the Wiki about Block Chance. I assume Block Chance: means it blocks all types of attacks which can be blocked (projectiles, close combat, root, knockback, Combat Arts(?)), while the others only block what they specifically mention?

 

Would be nice if other mods such as Damage of Enraged Players, Chance to Refect, etc. were somewhere also, maybe in their own section titled "Equipment Bonuses" or something like that.

 

Aside from that, the Wiki certainly has a lot of useful information about the game, and I appreciate all of the time and effort that has already been put into it.

 

Cheers.

 

-rhs

Edited by rhs408
Link to comment

Well the Item Modifiers has most of what you just said is missing, and while there isnt a detailed explanation of attack/defense Combat and Game Basics does cover the Chance to Hit briefly, and again, the item modifiers page will tell you what affects your chance to hit/to be hit.

Edited by Dragon Brother
Link to comment
Well the Item Modifiers has most of what you just said is missing, and while there isnt a detailed explanation of attack/defense Combat and Game Basics does cover the Chance to Hit briefly, and again, the item modifiers page will tell you what affects your chance to hit/to be hit.

Ok, I do see that a lot has been added to the item modifier page since I last looked at it (which was a few weeks ago or so)... looks good now. I still think that Attack and Defense needs its own link(s) and explanation though. It is too important/common of a stat to only be talked about indirectly, and I know that there are people like me who have and will type in "attack" into the search bar for the SacredWiki and come up with unhelpful results. If it were me, I would add links for Attack and Defense under the Dexterity explanation in the Attribute section.

Link to comment

The thing is with the mods -opponents chance to evade and +opponents cannot evade, attack and defense are kinda superflous, there isnt really much to be said, but you're right in that they should be said anyway, for the basic understanding they would give...write them in yourself maybe...and just post on here to get everyone to see what they think of your description. The wiki uses the same username and password as fdm does to log on.

Link to comment

I tried logging into the Wiki to take a stab at writing the descriptions for me, but it seems that I do not have "contributer" access?

 

This is what I would write for each one, please let me know if I should add or modify anything:

 

Attack - Attack is your base value for accuracy, or chance to hit the enemy. The higher your Attack value, the better your chance of landing a blow with each swing or shot of your weapon. Chance to hit is also affected by the Defense value of your enemy. The item modifiers Opponents Chance to Evade, Chance that Opponents cannot Evade Attacks, and Opponent's Defense Value all have an effect on your character's overall Chance to hit as well, although you will not see any change in the actual value displayed under Attack when viewing your character's stats if any of these mods become active.

 

Defense - Defense is your base value for evasion, or chance that your enemy will miss. The higher your defense value, the better your chance is to evade attacks from your enemy. Chance to evade is also affected by the Attack value of your enemy. The item modifiers Chance to Evade and Opponent's Attack Value have an effect on your character's Defense value as well, although you will not see any change in the actual value displayed under Defense when viewing your character's stats if either of these mods become active.

Link to comment

Thanks for the help with this rhs

I've updated your permissions for wiki acess. You can now use same login and password as you do here at DarkMatters to make changes to wiki.

 

You have written some good baseline info which can definitely help with understanding. As well, there's a topic I started a while back on the CTH calculator which would even proide more info if you want to add it to the wiki page:

 

Chance to hit calculator

 

:D

 

gogo

Link to comment

rhs, I feel your pain!

 

I did a lot of playing with the mods with a couple of builds I had and added everything I know just a little while back. It's still not very good, but it gives the basic idea.

 

Regarding OCE and COCE:

 

My PS3 does not show COCE changes in the hit calculator. Soooo much time spent looking at numbers, changing setups, looking again... some of my testing was flawed, and led to confusing results, which I realize now. Now that I have isolated that issue, I can ask if it works for other PS3's, or Xbox, or PC?

 

I've built up a good inventory of OCE that I can get numbers from again, but COCE I cannot help with 8(

 

What I do know: If you have COCE from a Combat Art mod (ie Sinister Predator Marked Shot, or BFG) then I do not believe that any more COCE would ever be needed to be socketed; concentrate on OCE instead.

For most enemies in the "console" version, OCE gives better CtH increases than COCE; but on bosses, or some enemies who have very high defense values and/or high block chances, and I theorize enemies who reflect... COCE should be better, and it "seems" like it when playing.

 

I have a basic idea of most of the Chance to Hit calculation:

 

**) Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade - if a successful check, go to DAMAGE (skipping the rest of the formula) *******Theory, untestable AFAIK

1) Reflecting - on a successful check, the enemy reflects the attack, then you take the DAMAGE... this seems to be checked before any defense or evasion is calcuated.

2) Attack Value vs. Defense Value - From Sacred 1 wiki - the CtH was Atk Value / (atk value+def value) and I haven't really checked that in Sacred 2. If sucessful, go to 3

**) Evasion - I am unsure if this is a seperate step, or if it is a direct replacement for 2 when an enemy has evasion, I would assume it is a replacement, but cannot say for sure.

3) Blocking - if the enemy is successful with their block check, the attack is blocked.

DAMAGE - go to damage calculation.

Link to comment

Thx gogo. I'll certainly include a link to the CtH calculator page.

 

essjayehm, OCE definitely seems the way to go from my experiences as well, mostly since they are so much more common than COCE (which as stated in the CtH calculator page does more per +% than OCE) and high Attack +% items

 

**) Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade - if a successful check, go to DAMAGE (skipping the rest of the formula) *******Theory, untestable AFAIK

1) Reflecting - on a successful check, the enemy reflects the attack, then you take the DAMAGE... this seems to be checked before any defense or evasion is calcuated.

2) Attack Value vs. Defense Value - From Sacred 1 wiki - the CtH was Atk Value / (atk value+def value) and I haven't really checked that in Sacred 2. If sucessful, go to 3

**) Evasion - I am unsure if this is a seperate step, or if it is a direct replacement for 2 when an enemy has evasion, I would assume it is a replacement, but cannot say for sure.

3) Blocking - if the enemy is successful with their block check, the attack is blocked.

DAMAGE - go to damage calculation.

 

I think you are correct that COCE comes in before anything else. Your question about evasion is a good one though... makes me think of how the numbers work on my own characters as far as evasion and defense. I tried doing a very high evasion build at one point (I think I was in Platinum), had about +130%. Normal monsters could not touch me, but vs bosses and champions which had a high attack value I would get hit quite often, to the point that I gave up on the build and concentrated more on +armor. I wonder much +evasion it makes sense to have, as at some point diminishing returns definitely kicks in hard.

Edited by rhs408
Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...
Thx gogo. I'll certainly include a link to the CtH calculator page.

 

essjayehm, OCE definitely seems the way to go from my experiences as well, mostly since they are so much more common than COCE (which as stated in the CtH calculator page does more per +% than OCE) and high Attack +% items

 

**) Chance that Opponents Cannot Evade - if a successful check, go to DAMAGE (skipping the rest of the formula) *******Theory, untestable AFAIK

1) Reflecting - on a successful check, the enemy reflects the attack, then you take the DAMAGE... this seems to be checked before any defense or evasion is calcuated.

2) Attack Value vs. Defense Value - From Sacred 1 wiki - the CtH was Atk Value / (atk value+def value) and I haven't really checked that in Sacred 2. If sucessful, go to 3

**) Evasion - I am unsure if this is a seperate step, or if it is a direct replacement for 2 when an enemy has evasion, I would assume it is a replacement, but cannot say for sure.

3) Blocking - if the enemy is successful with their block check, the attack is blocked.

DAMAGE - go to damage calculation.

 

I think you are correct that COCE comes in before anything else. Your question about evasion is a good one though... makes me think of how the numbers work on my own characters as far as evasion and defense. I tried doing a very high evasion build at one point (I think I was in Platinum), had about +130%. Normal monsters could not touch me, but vs bosses and champions which had a high attack value I would get hit quite often, to the point that I gave up on the build and concentrated more on +armor. I wonder much +evasion it makes sense to have, as at some point diminishing returns definitely kicks in hard.

 

The 2 things that made me think of COCE in that way was Chattius' confirmation that "sure hits" = COCE (from High Elf Magic Coup.png Magic Coup bronze mod) and the Sinister Predator.png Sinister Predator Marked Shot silver modification - adds a chance that opponents cannot evade or parry attacks.

Edited by essjayehm
Link to comment

I'm fairly certain that Reflect will come first, simply because even with Sinister Predator at high levels you can still reflect yourself to death MUCH too fast.

(As in I can remember having 50%+ of COCE and still reflecting damage back at myself much more than once every 2nd hit... you need -reflect to counter reflect builds).

 

And you can test it, with a bit of work. Get an Inquisitor to gather up a lot of souls (enough that their defense rating is impossibly high relative to your attack rating). Use a level 1 pipe/bow and stack COCE vs his reverse polarity. If you still reflect roughly the % that his buff is supposed to, then reflect comes first.

 

As to Evasion vs enemies... on the PC in the earlier versions the values listed on Evasion did not measure up to the returns. 100% Evasion only gave like 25% or so actual evasion when you looked on the character (it shows up when you hover over your white-attack, shows att/def/chance for special effects such as evasion/secondary effects). You needed huge values for it to have a noticeable effect vs stronger mobs. Of course even 20% evasion was still 20% fewer hits. In 2.40 I think it was they fixed the PC version so that Evasion values reflected more closely the return they gave. For example seraphim Celestial runes dropped from:

11.8%, 14.8%, 21.7%, 30.8%, 46.4% Evasion (based on difficulty they dropped in) to

5%, 5.4%, 7.1%, 8.8%, 11.2% Evasion that they have now.

 

However the return you got from them as far as actual effect on evasion remained constant.

Link to comment

But for melee block I reach numbers close to 200% if doing this. Which is probably a display bug. Else I would never be hit by melee combat when having my character optimized for shield blocking.

Link to comment
I'm fairly certain that Reflect will come first, simply because even with Sinister Predator at high levels you can still reflect yourself to death MUCH too fast.

(As in I can remember having 50%+ of COCE and still reflecting damage back at myself much more than once every 2nd hit... you need -reflect to counter reflect builds).

 

And you can test it, with a bit of work. Get an Inquisitor to gather up a lot of souls (enough that their defense rating is impossibly high relative to your attack rating). Use a level 1 pipe/bow and stack COCE vs his reverse polarity. If you still reflect roughly the % that his buff is supposed to, then reflect comes first.

 

As to Evasion vs enemies... on the PC in the earlier versions the values listed on Evasion did not measure up to the returns. 100% Evasion only gave like 25% or so actual evasion when you looked on the character (it shows up when you hover over your white-attack, shows att/def/chance for special effects such as evasion/secondary effects). You needed huge values for it to have a noticeable effect vs stronger mobs. Of course even 20% evasion was still 20% fewer hits. In 2.40 I think it was they fixed the PC version so that Evasion values reflected more closely the return they gave. For example seraphim Celestial runes dropped from:

11.8%, 14.8%, 21.7%, 30.8%, 46.4% Evasion (based on difficulty they dropped in) to

5%, 5.4%, 7.1%, 8.8%, 11.2% Evasion that they have now.

 

However the return you got from them as far as actual effect on evasion remained constant.

 

Cool. I've never been a good damage-dealer, so I have never really noticed reflecting before! I was wondering why everyone is so afraid of it, but that's because I mostly ensure defense is "higher than necessary" before increasing damage, I guess.

 

My experiences with reflecting was from Temple Guardian and Combat Alert Riposte modification. With a generous helping of defense value, I was almost never hit by mobs, but they would very often kill themselves, so I theorized that reflecting was calculated before defense values. Your experience shows, and I would also agree, that reflecting is calculated before COCE (if the english wording on Marked Shot is "perfect").

 

Thank you for that, Munera!

 

But for melee block I reach numbers close to 200% if doing this. Which is probably a display bug. Else I would never be hit by melee combat when having my character optimized for shield blocking.

 

So, three theories arise from this information:

 

Blocking has a shift-factor to avoid division by 0 (like in the damage/armour graph you linked in another thead) - it seems tp me all/most Sacred calculations are given these factors, both to avoid div/0 and to put diminishing returns to fustrate those who focus too much on one thing.

 

or

 

You are actually blocking 200% close combat attacks, but Combat Art's (weapon-based) and ranged attacks are hitting, so you are thinking that you are being hit by melee damage.

 

or

 

Enemies can also have COCE, so your blocking is ignored x% of the time.

 

 

Interesting.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...
Please Sign In or Sign Up