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Ice & Blood Map for Print - Help Needed!


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Well it's been a very long time coming no doubt and although I'm eager to talk all about the map I am going to keep this short. I'm presently dealing with an injury affecting both my arms and I'm finding typing painful so my interaction here will be minimal at best for several days. Likely the week but I'll try to offer info when asked. What I'm hoping is that some of you will be able to test the map as a print and let me know if the quality is good enough.

 

We have a low cost version in pdf form to start with. 8 splices intended to be printed on 11x17 paper then cut and finally taped together. I made one for gogo and it turned out very well and is hanging on his wall. Once it's together and on the wall I can barely even tell it was taped together. Best part is that it costs about $5 total. This is also a great way to sample the print quality. You can print out just one page to get a feel for the quality. I suggest page #1 as it has the smallest text and that's the only real problem with the map. Being able to read the text. On the web it's easy to read but print seems to be a different matter. One that I was not prepared for. Had I known what I know now I would have made the text bigger...

 

ICE & BLOOD PDF MAP (8 Sheets of 11x17) DOWNLOAD [166 MB] - Hosted on my Mediafire account

Soon to be updated...

 

I could change the text on the map but I'd prefer not to. It would take a while. Suggestions on improving text visibility without editing in photoshop would be MUCH appreciated.

 

 

I also have $25-$40 1 piece print image prepared but I'll hold off on that for now to see what we can learn from the above version to help choose the best size and dpi. Ultimately, what LazyTomcat achieved with the first map I made is what we're after. As he said though we'll probably need to go a bit bigger than what his print was.

 

Knock yourselves out guys and have fun. Let me know how well it works out. :D

 

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You will want to print at the highest DPI possible. Simply because it won't cost you any extra and the higher it is, the better it will look. Generally 300DPI (which is what the file is) is the minimum for printing, but as the dimensions increase you can print at lower resolution (because you are usually standing further away to look at it). Higher resolution will give sharper text.

 

11x17" is A3 in the international sizing, so 8 sheets would be A0 (33.1 x 46.8"). That is pretty big. I tried printing a single page at 1/4 size, which would equate to an A2 (16.5 x 23.4") size map and while the legend text is readable, most of the place/boss text is too small. I have also printed the whole map at half size (A1, 23.4 x 33.1") and it is pretty reasonable. I will cut it up and put it together tonight and see how it looks. I'd like to get it printed full size, but I am not sure I have a wall to put it onto :)

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a simple way of increasing the text readability. Even increasing the font size would probably be an issue, because there are areas with a high density of symbols/text that would overlap. I don't think it's unreadable at full size, but you need to be standing reasonably close.

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We used edge enhancing around text, black and white recalculating and printed it black and white on 16 A4 sheets with a linux program. I had bought an old used blackboard at a sell out at a school years back and we pinned it on it. Being cheap and black and white it has already a lot of writings with colour felt markers on it to highlite starting places of boss quests and all such stuff.

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Finished!

 

My wonderful fiancée is a ninja with a scalpel (more proof here) and has cut the whole thing out for me, even going so far as to get all of the rips and tears.

 

dreeft_Sacred2map.jpg

 

If you notice any inconsistencies they're probably from my terrible taping skills :)

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Sweeeeeet! That's so cool dreeft and you did it SO fast. Oh, and "ninja with a scalpel" indeed. Your fiancee did an amazing job on the edges. Love her lil Cube Crafts btw! :) The cut out edges was the very first thing I noticed. Awesome. I love it. I'm always so thrilled to see a print out of the map. I never imagined that it would ever get printed. Cool cool cool. :)

 

So how did it turn out for you? Was there any part of the image that was cut off during the print. Did I do a good job with the margins? I really wasn't sure about the margins at all. I had done a bit of reading about print margins but still never felt comfortable with my choice.

 

Are the place names in the Crystal Region legible? I think the ones in that area were the smallest. Could maybe an even higher DPI make it legible?

 

In the event of a need for a larger version I've prepared a 150 cm 300 DPI square PDF map, eh heh. For some reason though I get a "draw error" if I try to open it in Explorer or Adobe Reader. I hope that isn't a problem. It loads fine in Photoshop at the very least. The reason I've been sticking around 300 DPI so far is because I'm concerned about file size and the resulting time it will take to download for those interested in printing. The 150 cm 300 DPI square PDF map is already 264MB. :)

 

Any other thoughts oh great printing guru?! :D

 

Finished!

 

My wonderful fiancée is a ninja with a scalpel (more proof here) and has cut the whole thing out for me, even going so far as to get all of the rips and tears.

 

dreeft_Sacred2map.jpg

 

If you notice any inconsistencies they're probably from my terrible taping skills :P

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Finished!

 

My wonderful fiancée is a ninja with a scalpel (more proof here) and has cut the whole thing out for me, even going so far as to get all of the rips and tears.

 

dreeft_Sacred2map.jpg

 

If you notice any inconsistencies they're probably from my terrible taping skills :P

 

Thats awesome. Wish I had a poster size map of Ascaron.

3 cheers for your wife! :):):D

 

Chere ^-^

 

 

Hey Dreeft where did your wife get those cubes? I want a Domo one. hehe :)

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Wonder if I can download this to a thumbdrive and then take it over to Kinko's or a print shop and have them print it out.

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Wonder if I can download this to a thumbdrive and then take it over to Kinko's or a print shop and have them print it out.

 

They are PDF's so yes. you could also take em in to work and have one of the guys in Digital print them out on the Indigo.

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Sweeeeeet! That's so cool dreeft and you did it SO fast. Oh, and "ninja with a scalpel" indeed. Your fiancee did an amazing job on the edges. Love

 

her lil Cube Crafts btw! :lol: The cut out edges was the very first thing I noticed. Awesome. I

 

love it. I'm always so thrilled to see a print out of the map. I never imagined that it would ever get printed. Cool cool cool. :D

 

So how did it turn out for you? Was there any part of the image that was cut off during the print. Did I do a good job with the margins? I really wasn't sure about the margins at all. I had done a bit of reading about print margins but still never felt comfortable with my choice.

 

Are the place names in the Crystal Region legible? I think the ones in that area were the smallest. Could maybe an even higher DPI make it legible?

 

In the event of a need for a larger version I've prepared a 150 cm 300 DPI square PDF map, eh heh. For some reason though I get a "draw error" if I try to open it in Explorer or Adobe Reader. I hope that isn't a problem. It loads fine in Photoshop at the very least. The reason I've been sticking around 300 DPI so far is because I'm concerned about file size and the resulting time it will take to download for those interested in printing. The 150 cm 300 DPI square PDF map is already 264MB. :blink:

 

Any other thoughts oh great printing guru?! :D

It turned out great, no problems with your setup. The margins were fine for my use, but I printed the document using 'Scale To Fit' so I can't comment on them for full scale printing yet.

 

The only issue I have noticed is the gradient that runs down the centre of the map. I assume this was added by their art team to make it appear to have been folded. You can see this clearly on the photo I posted, but it isn't in LazyTomcat's map. I will see if I can remove it because it will help with readability for the areas it covers (particularly Dragonmaw Pass & Seraphim Island).

 

Some of the items in the Crystal Region (and Cursed Forest) are a bit small on my version, but they might be ok on a full size version. It seems to be mainly with the long text strings like 'Island of a Thousand Paths' and 'The Bridge Spanning Nothing' (but now that I know what they are, I can make them out). It might be possible to increase readability by making the yellow text lighter (possibly even white). The yellow text works good on the green areas but in the desert it's quite difficult to make out.

 

The draw error is a bit of a problem. If you can't open it with Acrobat, the printer may also face the same issue. I will see if I can put all the PDF files together and export a full map without the draw error.

 

That document size is pretty normal for a file of that complexity at those dimensions. We need to ensure that the document is setup at exactly the right size so that there are no problems when people take it to a print shop. Printers have a tendency to charge through the roof for adjustments to documents. Ensuring that the document fit's into the A0/33.1 x 46.8" size with some space around it will prevent the need for bleed or crop marks.

 

If I think of anything else, I'll let you know.

 

Thats awesome. Wish I had a poster size map of Ascaron.

3 cheers for your wife! :woot::woot::woot:

 

Chere ^-^

 

 

Hey Dreeft where did your wife get those cubes? I want a Domo one. hehe :bounce:

It really was easy, even with a desktop printer and a bit of a time you can definitely make your own.

 

They're from Cube Craft. Domo comes from here. :)

 

 

Wonder if I can download this to a thumbdrive and then take it over to Kinko's or a print shop and have them print it out.
You definitely could, but you will need to get them to put the files together for you. This could be costly, it might be worth waiting for a full size file or doing as loco suggests and get them printed digitally. This is a good temporary measure that keeps the price down. Edited by dreeft
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Wonder if I can download this to a thumbdrive and then take it over to Kinko's or a print shop and have them print it out.

 

They are PDF's so yes. you could also take em in to work and have one of the guys in Digital print them out on the Indigo.

The quality that this printer does is speechless. I'll see what the specs are for this Indigo. The guys at work would do this for free. and we could go up to 11x17 in paper also. not sure what the file would be like.

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Wonder if I can download this to a thumbdrive and then take it over to Kinko's or a print shop and have them print it out.

 

They are PDF's so yes. you could also take em in to work and have one of the guys in Digital print them out on the Indigo.

The quality that this printer does is speechless. I'll see what the specs are for this Indigo. The guys at work would do this for free. and we could go up to 11x17 in paper also. not sure what the file would be like.

 

That digital press at work is a $1 million dollar piece of equipment. it should look nice.

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As an interesting side note, the map fits a little awkwardly into an A0/33.1 x 46.8" size because of the aspect ratio of the paper.

 

I have done some screenshots of how it fits horizontally and vertically. You can see them here: Horizontal & Vertical.

 

I would imagine most printers would be able to cut it down to suit though, the final size should be roughly 33" (85cm) square.

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Yeah, unfortunately some paper will be left unused and somewhat wasted depending on where you will print. The print shop I'll be using, Bureau en Gros, tells me that they can print at any specific length so the square map shouldn't be a problem for them. Ultimately anyone that ventures a full map print should carefully educate themselves on their local print shops. I have a feeling that shop prices will differ greatly based on equipment at hand.

 

Really nice insight you've provided dreeft. Thanx! After reading up on standardized paper sizes I've come to realize that the sizes I've chosen aren't the best for full size prints. I'll work on a A0 and a B0 print size. Hopefully that will reduce the need to scale to fit so as to preserve detail as much as possible.

 

Oh and the gradient was me, haha. I wanted to create that folded paper look. I'll prepare a copy without it. :) As for the difficult to read text I might be able to overlay an additional layer of text to make them look more solid.

 

 

Would you know what the best amount of margins would be for a 30+" print? I'd like to try to ensure that "Scale to Fit" is not needed during the print process.

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Yeah, unfortunately some paper will be left unused and somewhat wasted depending on where you will print. The print shop I'll be using, Bureau en Gros, tells me that they can print at any specific length so the square map shouldn't be a problem for them. Ultimately anyone that ventures a full map print should carefully educate themselves on their local print shops. I have a feeling that shop prices will differ greatly based on equipment at hand.

 

Really nice insight you've provided dreeft. Thanx! After reading up on standardized paper sizes I've come to realize that the sizes I've chosen aren't the best for full size prints. I'll work on a A0 and a B0 print size. Hopefully that will reduce the need to scale to fit so as to preserve detail as much as possible.

 

Oh and the gradient was me, haha. I wanted to create that folded paper look. I'll prepare a copy without it. :) As for the difficult to read text I might be able to overlay an additional layer of text to make them look more solid.

 

Would you know what the best amount of margins would be for a 30+" print? I'd like to try to ensure that "Scale to Fit" is not needed during the print process.

I wouldn't say wasted, it is just simply not designed to be printed in the way I did it. It was actually my own fault assuming that it would fit into the A0 size. I did so because you specified 8 sheets of 11x17 (A3) which works out as A0. I should have realised when the 4th and 8th pages were only a small sliver. It definitely won't be a problem for any reputable print shop to cut it down.

 

hahah, I'm glad the gradient was you. I spent a few minutes over the weekend attempting to remove it, but I was having difficulty getting the colors correct. I really like the effect, and looks great when printed, but it can be distracting if you are attempting to use it as a functional map rather than a decorative piece :) My other suggestion regarding the text would be to potentially add an outer glow/stroke to it. Something like this perhaps (original on the left for comparison):

 

sacredtext1272343964.jpg

 

In regards to margins, it will be fine as long as there is sufficient room around the edge of the map in the document so that they won't be cutting into it. Because it is not a perfect shape (ie. the edges are not straight) there is going to have to be a certain amount of white space no matter how it is printed. The amount of white space (and therefore the margins) will be determined by the dimensions of the document. I think the amount of space you have left around the outside of the pdf files is perfect. I would suggest setting the file up to fit into a perfect square and whatever white space is shown, is the margin :)

 

The scaling to fit was simply caused by my effort to fit the map onto sheets of A4 paper. Most desktop printers have rollers that grab the paper on the edges in order to feed it through, this is why you cannot print flush to the edge and hence why I had to scale it down. This is not a problem for a print shop, because their printers don't have the rollers. They will simply print it to fit whatever size your document is.

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The guys here said they can print this on their hp Indigo Press 5000. But they need the dpi se at between 300 - 600. Or I think I can talk to one of our programers to convert what you have already set. Think he said he can use Photoshop to do it. Tha sound right?

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Photoshop should be able to set the dpi @ 300 dpi. I know for a fact that Illustrator CS3 can, up to 600 dpi, as that is what I use.

In the meantime, I'm going to merge the files and try to vectorize the the map into a single file.

Jet

 

Edit; @ 600 dpi the file size for page 1 as a bitmap, is 256 mb, lol

Edited by Jetcutter
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@dreeft: Once again your insight will be put to very good use. :) Based on what's being said I think I'm going to edit all the place names after all... I think the final straw so to speak that brought me to this decision is that the place names in the Crystal Region are much smaller than anywhere else. Resizing the place names will be easy but as a result their placements will shift a bit so I'll have to move each and every place name around a bit.

Looking at the draft I printed out for gogo I "think that most of the place names' visibility are ok. For example I can see Swamp place names well enough. As for making the names stand out more that should be easy. Instead of overlaying additional layers I think I'll just change their layer style states from Linear Dodge to Normal. It was Linear Dodge to allow some background to pass through the text; making them somewhat translucent. As well the black Stroke of the names was set to a low opacity. So I'll make all that solid and then I'll give you guys a sample. I'll use the same sample from the Orc region so we can have a nice comparison.

The gradient won't be a problem at all. ^^ I kinda chuckled to myself when after reading your comment, "functional map rather than a decorative piece.". Without realizing it myself it's true. I stopped treating the map as a tool long ago I think, haha. What's worse though is that I've done sooooo much work on the map in Photoshop AND in game. I know it so well now that it's clarity or lack thereof doesn't affect me, lol. I guess I need to re-adjust my focus out of my head and onto the paper. ^^

 

@Furian: As Jet says it should be no trouble at all. In fact it's probably the best option when considering file size upload/download and general transferring from flash drive to pc and so on. I don't have a lot of experience with setting DPI but from what I have done in Photoshop it appears as though it makes no difference whether I give you guys a copy set to 600 DPI or if I give you a 300 DPI version and then have you change it to 600 DPI from your end. Meaning that there won't be any quality degradation. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong though!

Knock yourself out Furian. :)

 

@Jet: 256mb for the 1st sheet, yowch. Sure are a lot of colours huh! lol. I'll be interested to read about your tinkering Jet. :thumbsup:

 

 

I really appreciate the feedback guys. It's helping a lot! Question about colour now... I'm having a very hard time matching "real world" palettes to sRGB. If I understand correctly then RGB is basically a standardized web palette and CMYK is a collection of colour standards of which I need to choose the right one. Furthermore... I should probably prepare an American colour version of the map and a UK version?

 

Any insight on colour? :) How closely does your print version's colour match the online version's colour dreeft? I really want to get that as close as possible.

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Vectorization of this one will be a Beastly job. But I think it is do able. Once vectorized, a file of that nature has immense possibilities. Color seperation

becomes an "on the fly" task.

It will take some time, but I'll post the final product when it's worth the keystrokes .

But I've got some good core files to work from.

Jet

Edited by Jetcutter
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The guys here said they can print this on their hp Indigo Press 5000. But they need the dpi se at between 300 - 600. Or I think I can talk to one of our programers to convert what you have already set. Think he said he can use Photoshop to do it. Tha sound right?
If the document is setup at 300dpi (as per the PDF files), scaling it up to 600dpi will degrade the quality. There shouldn't really be any reason to go up to 600dpi, 300 is more that fine for the size it is.

 

I really appreciate the feedback guys. It's helping a lot! Question about colour now... I'm having a very hard time matching "real world" palettes to sRGB. If I understand correctly then RGB is basically a standardized web palette and CMYK is a collection of colour standards of which I need to choose the right one. Furthermore... I should probably prepare an American colour version of the map and a UK version?

 

Any insight on colour? :viking: How closely does your print version's colour match the online version's colour dreeft? I really want to get that as close as possible.

You are correct about the colour models; RGB is for screen, CMYK is for print. The easiest way to understand the difference is that RGB are "additive colors". Combining red, green and blue light you will get white light. CMY (K is black) are "subtractive colors". When the inks are printed on white paper, they absorb the light shining on the page.

 

So, basically this means that most colours created on the RGB monitor can be duplicated using CMYK inks, but not all. As an RGB monitor is generating light, it can create some bright colours that can’t be duplicated on any CMYK printing press. Paper can only reflect light, so if you print the super-bright RGB colours in CMYK, they get a lot duller.

 

So in this context, because the map came from screen, you may have a hard time converting it to CMYK and keeping the colours the same. We will probably need to see a printed version in order to actually determine how different the colours are going to be.

 

CMYK should be roughly the same in both the US and UK. The difference is more to do with the inks that the printers use. There will definitely be some differences between the two locations. Again, it will be very hard to account for this without seeing a printed copy. This is why most printers provide proofs of their jobs to ensure the colours are correct. The only way of getting exactly the same colour is by using Pantones, which is not possible in this case.

 

My printed copy was not bad. However it was only printed on a desktop laserjet printer, which is not the best for colour matching. I would expect the colour to be closer on a professionally printed version.

 

You're on the right track with the text, that will definitely help with readability.

 

Vectorization of this one will be a Beastly job. But I think it is do able. Once vectorized, a file of that nature has immense possibilities. Color seperation

becomes an "on the fly" task.

It will take some time, but I'll post the final product when it's worth the keystrokes .

But I've got some good core files to work from.

Jet

You're going to make a vector version of the entire map? That is a beastly job! You're brave, good luck to you :)
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I just had the guys print me out the map. Schot this thing is awesome. Really! I need to lay it out yet but what I see is breath taking. I really don't know how you would improve on the quality.

 

I had four copies made. Pm me your address and I'll mail one up to you.

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The guys here said they can print this on their hp Indigo Press 5000. But they need the dpi se at between 300 - 600. Or I think I can talk to one of our programers to convert what you have already set. Think he said he can use Photoshop to do it. Tha sound right?
If the document is setup at 300dpi (as per the PDF files), scaling it up to 600dpi will degrade the quality. There shouldn't really be any reason to go up to 600dpi, 300 is more that fine for the size it is.

 

I really appreciate the feedback guys. It's helping a lot! Question about colour now... I'm having a very hard time matching "real world" palettes to sRGB. If I understand correctly then RGB is basically a standardized web palette and CMYK is a collection of colour standards of which I need to choose the right one. Furthermore... I should probably prepare an American colour version of the map and a UK version?

 

Any insight on colour? :) How closely does your print version's colour match the online version's colour dreeft? I really want to get that as close as possible.

You are correct about the colour models; RGB is for screen, CMYK is for print. The easiest way to understand the difference is that RGB are "additive colors". Combining red, green and blue light you will get white light. CMY (K is black) are "subtractive colors". When the inks are printed on white paper, they absorb the light shining on the page.

 

So, basically this means that most colours created on the RGB monitor can be duplicated using CMYK inks, but not all. As an RGB monitor is generating light, it can create some bright colours that can’t be duplicated on any CMYK printing press. Paper can only reflect light, so if you print the super-bright RGB colours in CMYK, they get a lot duller.

 

So in this context, because the map came from screen, you may have a hard time converting it to CMYK and keeping the colours the same. We will probably need to see a printed version in order to actually determine how different the colours are going to be.

 

CMYK should be roughly the same in both the US and UK. The difference is more to do with the inks that the printers use. There will definitely be some differences between the two locations. Again, it will be very hard to account for this without seeing a printed copy. This is why most printers provide proofs of their jobs to ensure the colours are correct. The only way of getting exactly the same colour is by using Pantones, which is not possible in this case.

 

My printed copy was not bad. However it was only printed on a desktop laserjet printer, which is not the best for colour matching. I would expect the colour to be closer on a professionally printed version.

 

You're on the right track with the text, that will definitely help with readability.

 

Vectorization of this one will be a Beastly job. But I think it is do able. Once vectorized, a file of that nature has immense possibilities. Color seperation

becomes an "on the fly" task.

It will take some time, but I'll post the final product when it's worth the keystrokes .

But I've got some good core files to work from.

Jet

You're going to make a vector version of the entire map? That is a beastly job! You're brave, good luck to you :)

 

Thanx dreeft. :) On some of the tests I've made of the map I started setting up both (Swop) v2 versions for America and Fogra27. From what I've read those two are the most commonly used color settings for print. The reason I started doing that was because it was the only way to ensure that a nice color match was found. I guess I just don't trust a print shop to do the colour matching for me, haha. They'd probably spend a few minutes trying to make matches but with my uber OCD powers I could go on for days, lol. The desert region of the map needs considerable colour matching as I found out after I printed the first sample map that gogo now has. Overall I think it comes out much darker than the WEB version which really bothers me. OCD FTW! ^^

 

Interesting note on the 300DPI vs. 600DPI point we talked about earlier. I was tinkering with a tiny sample of the map last night and found that converting from 300 to 600 actually does improve the quality. It's doing both I think, enhancing and degrading that is. But I think that in the case of this project the enhancements gained from DPI are superior to the degradation caused by the inevitable re-sampling(Bicubic) during conversion. The sample I used was a block of the map containing the place name The bridge spanning nothing. That one is probably the hardest to read. So first I printed the block at 300 DPI, then I put the same paper back in my epson cx4200 and printed a 600 DPI version of the Block. The result was a very noticeable difference in the text. At the 600 DPI the size remains the same but the text is much fuller. I don't think I'll provide the download at 600 DPI but for anyone who wants to you could easily ask the printing shop to convert it to 600 DPI before printing to get that extra bit of sharpness. Here's a sample:

 

300 DPI vs 600 DPI (About 15 x larger than actual)

300vs600.png

 

 

Interesting note on colour dreeft. That really gave me the perspective I needed. I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up too much with trying to match my RedGreenBlue workspace with a CyanMagentaYellowKey(black) print palette. I'll just focus my efforts on clarity. :)

 

 

The Ideal is to create path's of the terrain and lettering. If anyone has a clue as to the font used in the map, that would be helpful.

Jet

 

omg Jet. Don't do it Jet! You'll end up like me. Irreparable, lol. I have to agree that would be a monumental task. Though the file size would be awesome. :) The fonts are the ones that came with Sacred 2. You can find them in your Sacred 2 game folder ...locale/en_UK(or en_US). AntqSSK.ttf and Carolingia.ttf. Good luck!

 

 

I just had the guys print me out the map. Schot this thing is awesome. Really! I need to lay it out yet but what I see is breath taking. I really don't know how you would improve on the quality.

 

I had four copies made. Pm me your address and I'll mail one up to you.

 

Oh sweet! lol. You got the super printer at work to print it out Furian? I have to say I was really amazed when I pieced gogo's map together for him. It's so cool seeing the map that big eh. :)

 

Well, I think for the most part it's all just bells and whistles from this point on. I am a bit of a perfectionist so I'll probably finish the text work we've been talking about. I think the Crystal Region text needs it most of all. How did those little tip boxes with text inside turn out? The ones in the Blood region. Is the text in those boxes readable?

 

Sending PM now! :)

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