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#21 claudius

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 08:53 AM

Nice write up... Can't wait till I'm done building bargaining to 75 (network) and can join you with some non-utility chars.. At the moment I am brewing beer for the year and playing Dragon Age Origins (fun game) but I will be back to Sacred 2 (I'm over 50% through the game)...
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#22 FrostElfGuard

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 10:09 AM

From the wiki, Cascading Shroud's Silver mod is:

Inconspicuous - Reduces the chance to be detected by opponents. (1% + 0.5% per CA level reduced chance)


So, to get the Guardians to not notice you, you'd have to have 1%+99%= level 199 in Cascading Shroud... unless Mystic Stormite Lore boosts the numbers for Cascading Shroud somehow like Delphic Arcana Lore boosts the HP regen from Grand Invigoration.

It's the hidden mechanics of the game that made me look at Cascading Shroud and dismiss it as something that just wouldn't provide defense most of the time.

Kudos on you gogo for investigating the Ice Elf so thoroughly!

I'm wondering what skills you push (beyond Mystic Stormite Lore and Focus) to mastery... and do you push skills up to a sweet spot to park them before pushing primary damage skills to mastery.

I guess, at character level 75, what skills are mastered? At what character level is the next skill mastered, and what is it? Decisions like these make or break characters {I'm doing my own share of breaking these days with my staff Dryad}.

Superlative work gogo, can't say enough to praise it!

#23 mainerunr

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 11:31 AM

Wondering how this build would be on console...

#24 Ryanrocker

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 02:39 PM

Wondering how this build would be on console...


As would I...The catchy vid tune, amazing bosskiller CA, wow this build is impressive. I really, really need a build to farm the guardians so this might be one of my best bets. Thanks for the build and vids guys :thumbsup:


From the wiki, Cascading Shroud's Silver mod is:

Inconspicuous - Reduces the chance to be detected by opponents. (1% + 0.5% per CA level reduced chance)


So, to get the Guardians to not notice you, you'd have to have 1%+99%= level 199 in Cascading Shroud... unless Mystic Stormite Lore boosts the numbers for Cascading Shroud somehow like Delphic Arcana Lore boosts the HP regen from Grand Invigoration.


This is confusing me also. I think there might be a typo in the wiki and it's supposed to be 10% as that would seem more realistic. We crave more info Secret Agent gogo! :sigh:

Edited by ryanrocker1217, 17 June 2010 - 02:52 PM.


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#25 Llama8

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 03:16 PM

This is confusing me also. I think there might be a typo in the wiki and it's supposed to be 10% as that would seem more realistic. We crave more info Secret Agent gogo! :sigh:

Possibly, though IIRC the only things that aren't multiples of 10 are absolute modifers (like damage). The Evasion stat on Cascading Shroud is stored as "entry2 = {"et_chance_evade", 60, 3, 0, 41 },", and it's 6.0% in-game.

#26 Ryanrocker

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 04:27 PM

Possibly, though IIRC the only things that aren't multiples of 10 are absolute modifers (like damage). The Evasion stat on Cascading Shroud is stored as "entry2 = {"et_chance_evade", 60, 3, 0, 41 },", and it's 6.0% in-game.



Thanks Llama. As I do not have access to a working CP version, is there any stat under enemy detection chance or something along the lines of that? Unless the evasion stat is standing for the detection chance... And 6% does seem to be more realistic than 1%. If that info is correct, should we make the change to the wiki then?

 


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#27 Dragon Brother

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Posted 17 June 2010 - 07:20 PM

This is confusing me also. I think there might be a typo in the wiki and it's supposed to be 10% as that would seem more realistic. We crave more info Secret Agent gogo! :drinks:

Possibly, though IIRC the only things that aren't multiples of 10 are absolute modifers (like damage). The Evasion stat on Cascading Shroud is stored as "entry2 = {"et_chance_evade", 60, 3, 0, 41 },", and it's 6.0% in-game.


I think that mod might be bugged though, because my last HE once picking that mod could run through anywhere withought being noticed.

#28 Llama8

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 03:50 AM

Guys, I posted the evasion stat that's part of the base Spell, not the invisibility mod: entry7 = {"et_invisible", 10, 5, 4, 41 },

From everything else that I've seen in the spells.txt file, it should by 1% +0.5% per level, though that doesn't mean that it's not broken in some way & makes it impossible for monsters to detect you.

Shadow Veil has a similar effect, though it has two different mods (taken from the buff, hence the values):
entry0 = {"et_evade_detection", 0, 10, 0, 41 },
entry1 = {"et_invisible", 25, 10, 0, 41 },
entry2 = {"et_invisible", 25, 10, 1, 41 },
entry5 = {"et_evade_detection", 500, 10, 4, 41 },

Entry 2 is the 1a mod, which determins how close a monster has to get before they can detect the caster (this is the Stealth value of Shadow Veil), entry 5 is mod 2b "greatly reduces the detection radius while casting spells", so I think that reduces the chance that a monster would react if you cast a spell (sometimes if you're outside their detection radius, ie "too far away" & then cast a CA at them they will run after you, despite you not having moved closer to them).

#29 Ryanrocker

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 05:43 AM

In what order should we modify the CAs? I was thinking:

Crystal Skin
Glacial Thorns
Frost Flare
Cascading Shroud
Raging Nimbus


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#30 gogoblender

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 06:09 AM

I've been thinking about the mods for Nimbus:

Hurricane: Increased RoF, can't be replicated by any other mods on equipment (or buffs).
Wrath: More base damage to be boosted by other mods, good synergies with Crystal Skin damage mod.

Momentum: Further reduction on movement speed (bleurgh, probably someone will want this...)
Roar: Attack value reduction on targets affected by RN. One thing that I don't understand at the moment is how long this effect lasts (is it "permanent" until the monster dies, timed on a short/long timer), how it's applied (once per cast or once per hit, if it's the latter, this would have a good synergy with Hurricane, especially if you took the duration mod as well) & whether it's increased by the Lore (though this may just be wishful thinking). IMO it's probably the "better" mod, unless you want to slow everything on the screen down even more, can you imagine undead affected by Momentum?

Cyclone: Increased duration. Increases the fixed duration by 50%, does not increase with CA level. Increased duration is (IMO) more useful for dealing with bosses, since it gives you a choice - either less frequent casts of RN, giving you more time to cast your damage spells, or more casts of RN, giving you more debuffing goodness. If Roar is applied once per hit & is "permanent" for monsters, then you could crucify the boss's attack rating (more so if it's affected by the Lore).
Extended Nimbus: Increased range, can be replicated (after a fashion) by the "increased CA range" gold mod (eg, Nlovae's Mystery & Glacial Defender). Increases the fixed range by 25%, does not increase with CA level either. Increased Range is probably more useful for dealing with mobs (especially small monsters that like to wander round) since you can cover a larger area & the monsters can (slowly) wander around to their hearts content while they get debuffed (if you took the Roar) & damaged.
Both of the gold mods are useful & I think they're where you really differentiate RN into mob/boss control.

Edit: Oh yeah, I'd quite like to see what item mods you've got & how much +% damage/ice damage you're using to get those damage figures on GT (and what the base damage is), skill levels & so on.
Not much really... ;)



You turned my head on a loop here Llama...possible to actually make storm a boss killer? Wow...I didn't even go down that line...but if it's possible, it would neat to see...lol reverse the thorns to mob and the storm to boss killer ^ :lol: This weekend I'll also post the Agent's gear for everyone.

I said it in the other topic, but I can't help doing it again - amazing work gogo. I really, really like this girl. I always wanted to make an ice girl after the self-sufficient fire one, but I never got around to it, since I kinda became a seraphim-lover (the same way you became a CTH + RPH + LL% crazy tree-hugger :P ).

Now this gives me a good chance to try. I'll have to tweak the build a little to suit my build survivability stereotypes... that means adding shield lore somewhere in it. It's just:
shield lore's mastery bonus + a good rare shield + good socketables = substantial amount of chance to block +% which dramatically improves the longevity of a HE in general.

The question is what should I leave out. Delphic lore and Spell resistance seem to be the obvious 2 choices. However, keeping in mind that spell resistance helps against the LL 1-hit-kill bug, it's well worth keeping it in. Delphic lore is good if you use some of the offensive Combat Arts, and it does help the HP regen bonus from Grand Invigoration... This is going to be one very tough call.

Maybe I'm a bit too pragmatic and pedantic when it comes to survivability, though :P


Dobri! ha, it's such a great feeling to see you, one of the most prolific guide writers for Sacred 2 saying you like the build. Thank you! I know that with the release of Ice and Blood, all the nerfs impacted your builds, and you were displeased. Thanks for the support with your discussions and out of the box ideas...all of it now sidling into place with what I hope are going to be some fresh new thinking and socketing to be able to pull out that damage and performance we have all craved. Go Ice and Blood!


When I had my eye surgery 18 month ago, I planed to play an ice elf. But being forced to play zoomed in because of no glasses for the changing eye values I did hard with glacial thorns (too much zoomed in to aim far behind an enemy). So I planed to play with nimbus. Nimbus is used in close range so I put more weight on close defense: shield lore and fire skin (if necessary).

The difference to your build: pyro focus and shield lore instead arcane lore and spell resistance:

Mystic Stormite Focus
Mystic Stormite Lore
Concentration
Delphic Arcania Focus
Constitution
Delphic Arcania Lore-> Pyro focus
Combat Discipline
Armor Lore
Ancient Magic
Spell Resistance -> shield lore

The idea was to push concentration, pyro focus and combat discipline first. Getting cast speed and damage from the fire monkey instead of a lore. So the start was more pyro than ice till concentration was at 75. I stopped it at around 80 when I had more fun playing melee elves.

So I wonder why so few people use cascading shroud. Even my melee elves had fire skin, I had fully modified cascading shroud. Playing with all 3 foci for most of our elves: like the shield maiden.


Chattius, I was looking at your build now, and it looks like something I could come close to build because once I get to level 140 or 150 'll probably stop advancing in levels and start something new. Fire sounds good, and I still don't know why I picked the Spell Resistance... that pouty part of me just wanting to be different? :( Have you ever done comparisons for picking tween shield lore and spell resistance for last level pck?


Nice write up... Can't wait till I'm done building bargaining to 75 (network) and can join you with some non-utility chars.. At the moment I am brewing beer for the year and playing Dragon Age Origins (fun game) but I will be back to Sacred 2 (I'm over 50% through the game)...


Claudius, this build had me playing with you so much on the servers when it was just growing up. I have a debt of gratitude to you I owe for keeping me sane during those many days during work. Thanks for all the great insight for the Combat Arts.


From the wiki, Cascading Shroud's Silver mod is:

Inconspicuous - Reduces the chance to be detected by opponents. (1% + 0.5% per CA level reduced chance)


So, to get the Guardians to not notice you, you'd have to have 1%+99%= level 199 in Cascading Shroud... unless Mystic Stormite Lore boosts the numbers for Cascading Shroud somehow like Delphic Arcana Lore boosts the HP regen from Grand Invigoration.

It's the hidden mechanics of the game that made me look at Cascading Shroud and dismiss it as something that just wouldn't provide defense most of the time.

Kudos on you gogo for investigating the Ice Elf so thoroughly!

I'm wondering what skills you push (beyond Mystic Stormite Lore and Focus) to mastery... and do you push skills up to a sweet spot to park them before pushing primary damage skills to mastery.

I guess, at character level 75, what skills are mastered? At what character level is the next skill mastered, and what is it? Decisions like these make or break characters {I'm doing my own share of breaking these days with my staff Dryad}.

Superlative work gogo, can't say enough to praise it!


Frosty, I took the ice lore, focus and delphic focus all to mastery at same time...was distributing points evenly amongst them till 75. To me, those there skills were essence of "Agent Ice Elfishness" When they all hit mastery, the fourth, being Constitution, immediately made a difference to my mobbing play style and from there, once Armor Lore was mastered, with superior regens and resistances, on to Boss Kiling.


Wondering how this build would be on console...


It would do awesome. Console does not have all the nerfs that ice and blood does. I believe console has unlimited runes you can add to buffs...with ice and blood only two hundred. Console has older version of game... you can pretty much socket a bazillion plus skills rings which can help bandaid builds. With Ice and Blood, to really pump out performance, every socket is going to count, and you'll also have to map out synergies to make sure you choose mods correctly with your Combat Arts and Buffs.

Possibly, though IIRC the only things that aren't multiples of 10 are absolute modifers (like damage). The Evasion stat on Cascading Shroud is stored as "entry2 = {"et_chance_evade", 60, 3, 0, 41 },", and it's 6.0% in-game.


Thanks Llama. As I do not have access to a working CP version, is there any stat under enemy detection chance or something along the lines of that? Unless the evasion stat is standing for the detection chance... And 6% does seem to be more realistic than 1%. If that info is correct, should we make the change to the wiki then?

Edit: Hey gogo, soldats build is kind of similar to yours (designed to be an excellent bosskiller), so I figured I'd post a link to it in this topic :)



Nice Vid... though I think my build is putting out a bit more damage :P Soldats is also playing on older version of game which has none of the buffs of ice and blood I mentioned up above. By looking at his build, I would wager, for his game version, definitely more than 130 +Skills rings...which is almost impossible to do now with Ice and Blood without losing out on some of the balance.

This is confusing me also. I think there might be a typo in the wiki and it's supposed to be 10% as that would seem more realistic. We crave more info Secret Agent gogo! :P

Possibly, though IIRC the only things that aren't multiples of 10 are absolute modifers (like damage). The Evasion stat on Cascading Shroud is stored as "entry2 = {"et_chance_evade", 60, 3, 0, 41 },", and it's 6.0% in-game.


I think that mod might be bugged though, because my last HE once picking that mod could run through anywhere withought being noticed.


In my build I was posting that I had believed it was a bug. It's 30 seconds of pure undectedness ... you can perform combat arts at the same time... more powerful than any god spell. And yet... once... something strange happened, and a monster hit me, and made me red line... grrrrrrrrr, kral. For this reason I'm very careful when using it, and as it's only 30 seconds, you can only use it for a portion of your time against Guardians as it's cool down is SO long... choose wisely.


In what order should we modify the CAs? I was thinking:

Crystal Skin
Glacial Thorns
Frost Flare
Cascading Shroud
Raging Nimbus



I think I was putting points start with thorns, then crystal skin, then GI. Frost...somwhere next was cascading...last one, and I still don't have enough points yet to finish is Nimbus. I only modded one of NImubs, the damage...but it's synergy with the other two Combat Arts in the combo is so sweet...I was thinking I may never need to mod it... but now I'm curious to see how it's silver mod, the one that decreases Chance to Hit will impact my battles with them.

Cheers guys, thank you again for all the questions and interest in the Agent. Ryan, we are looking to make another vid for this build, for mobbing... we just can't agree on a song


:lol:

gogo

p.s. for this weekend, we'll also put up the download of this build :(

#31 Llama8

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 08:18 AM

You turned my head on a loop here Llama...possible to actually make storm a boss killer? Wow...I didn't even go down that line...but if it's possible, it would neat to see...lol reverse the thorns to mob and the storm to boss killer ^ :P This weekend I'll also post the Agent's gear for everyone.

I'm not sure it necessarily has the damage output to kill off a Guardian (in the time scale that you're doing it with GT), it would definitely be good for debuffing the boss' AR to make it much less likely to hit you. Having said that, it might be able to kill a Guardian eventually, especially if you're spamming it, I'm not sure... GT will likely have a significant lead in the damage output stakes (IIRC GT has a higher damage per thorn & you can focus most of those thorns on a single target -> massive damage), but RN also slows the target down & can debuff their attack value so even if they do catch up to you they should have a much lowered chance to hit in melee.

It might be something to test on a blank level 200 character to see what you can do with it... Downside of RN are it's starting majority physical element (heavily resisted) & low damage compared to GT, upsides are the duration (6 or 9 seconds), Area of Effect (not really suited for killing bosses, though it does keep them in affected by it for longer, more so with the slow effect) & debuff (movement speed & Attack Value).

#32 Munera

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 08:40 AM

Sorry, I'm a bit late. I've been really busy this week, but now I'm free, free throughout the summer... :(

This build is extraordinary. I'm not interested in magic , so I can't understand very well all the build basics, but I've been several times with you in a team and man, I don't want to meet you in PvP, never :( She is death itself. Sometimes I was even sadden by the Guardian's savage deaths :P You've done a great work dude.
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#33 Denna1984

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 01:56 PM

How did you mod raging nimbus and flare?

Can't seem to find it. The mods for thorns is in the original post.

#34 Llama8

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 02:19 PM

He took the damage mod for Nimbus & didn't mention Frost Flare.

#35 Ryanrocker

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 02:42 PM

In the guide constitution is listed as the fifth skill. Not sure if you are putting them in order of skill picks but getting constitution is not possible without picking either armor lore or spell resist.


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#36 Sarcolemming

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Posted 18 June 2010 - 11:17 PM

hrmmm on consoles this build would be mildly different but otherwise the meta would be roughly the same. The real difference on consoles is the lack of enemy spells being actually, well... harmful. Most spells pre-Ice and Blood are slows, roots, and the occasional fireball. That said most of the effects are really not enough to justify an entire skill and the mod on crystal skin. Instead, the slow mod to reduce enemy movement would be more useful and enhanced perception to make up for the lack of socketed chance to find valuables would most definitely be helpful in farming legendaries. So really on consoles one could skip spell resistance all together and be perfectly fine(hp wise), sure the usually random slow/root will be annoying but they only last a few seconds, and with this kind of damage most enemies should be dead long before then, you'll prolly end up standing around for the last bit of the duration. : )

The boss(duration) mod on RN mentioned above would definitely be useful as us console users can't focus our thorns at all, what with it being distance based... x.x

On second thought, it may be more useful to drop delphic arcania lore as well, not really much in the line of damage from those spells and constitution mastery combined with the solid levels in GI should provide enough hp recovery, perhaps toughness lore would be better or some kind of evasion(speed lore)?

Ah well, I'm no expert, but I'll be making a 'secret agent' as well, nice work gogo and schot for the vid. balloon heads hehe, I hope the thorns make em pop ^^;
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#37 Ryanrocker

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 11:24 AM

The boss(duration) mod on RN mentioned above would definitely be useful as us console users can't focus our thorns at all, what with it being distance based... x.x

On second thought, it may be more useful to drop delphic arcania lore as well, not really much in the line of damage from those spells and constitution mastery combined with the solid levels in GI should provide enough hp recovery, perhaps toughness lore would be better or some kind of evasion(speed lore)?


Very good points but I would have to disagree. As you said, we can't focus our thorns at all. But, getting in the face of your opponent will allow for every shard to hit them, which ends up being very effective. This brings up another point though, that if your in the face of a boss you're fagile and will lose more health than at range. This is countered by keeping Delphic Arcania lore in the build which adds to the hitpoint regen of GI, and picking up shield lore instead of spell resist. Toughness is not available for high elfs so that is out of the question, but maybe combat reflexes might work for some people.


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#38 Sarcolemming

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:08 PM

Very good points but I would have to disagree. As you said, we can't focus our thorns at all. But, getting in the face of your opponent will allow for every shard to hit them, which ends up being very effective. This brings up another point though, that if your in the face of a boss you're fagile and will lose more health than at range. This is countered by keeping Delphic Arcania lore in the build which adds to the hitpoint regen of GI, and picking up shield lore instead of spell resist. Toughness is not available for high elfs so that is out of the question, but maybe combat reflexes might work for some people.


True enough, upon checking though combat reflexes aren't an option either :yay:. Sadly it seems that the only thing close is speed lore. Shields are wonderful and all, but can one really afford the points to mastery? That is if someone crazy, like me, wanted to max out mystic stormite lore for insane damage, or ancient magic to get the best possible Ice-resist reduction, there are fewer points to be had in other skills. Granted we have our token skill concentration, but another may be necessary to reach 200 + masteries in our other key skills.

I'm gonna have to disagree on the usefulness of DA lore, it's just minuscule for so many points compared to simply eating a few more runes. Don't forget on consoles there appears to be no limit to runes eaten, so we can simply munch down a few hundred more runes and get the same effect easily, without the points cost. Aside from that the points are more useful in focus or ancient magic, both of which will affect the output in similar though more broadly useful ways. =)

As an aside I also find my thorns miss dramatically more at point blank range then if I stand further back. This may be because of inclines however, heaven forbid you have to fight a group of enemies on any sort of hill as your shards will only travel up and out much like a cone laying flat on a table, one side angles up, and the other shoots straight, no down hill of any sort. :P
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#39 Ryanrocker

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 05:25 PM

As an aside I also find my thorns miss dramatically more at point blank range then if I stand further back. This may be because of inclines however, heaven forbid you have to fight a group of enemies on any sort of hill as your shards will only travel up and out much like a cone laying flat on a table, one side angles up, and the other shoots straight, no down hill of any sort. :P


Yes, this is extemely frustrating and sometimes it's even impossible to hit some enemies on an incline. Wish their would be another console patch/expanision *sigh* :yay:


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#40 Sarcolemming

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Posted 19 June 2010 - 06:41 PM

Yes, this is extemely frustrating and sometimes it's even impossible to hit some enemies on an incline. Wish their would be another console patch/expanision *sigh* :yay:


I second that motion! :P Though sometimes even on a flat surface 90% of my thorns simply go around my opponents even the big guys seem to just phase out of existence for a second or two while the thorns pass right through them. I've noticed it sometimes happens with blazing tempest as well, they simply pass through the spell and don't even get hit, usually at extremely close range is where it happens too. Makes me wonder if there is a minimum effective range for the animation itself, a blind spot as it were. Anyone have any thoughts/observations on it?
Originally Posted Long long ago, in a forum far far away. With CHEESE~!




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