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- Opponent's attack (/defence) rating mod


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Does anyone know how these mods work? There are several different versions - blue item mods "Opponent's attack value -X%" & "Opponent's defence value -X%" & CA mods (eg, Roar on Raging Nimbus & Delude on Radiant Pillar). What I'd like to know is how these mods function:

 

1) Are they applied once per "cast" (for the CAs, the item mods are applied whenever you hit the target)?

2) Are they applied once per "hit" (for the CA mods)?

3) Do they stack?

4) Can spells (ie, non-weapon-based CAs) proc the item mods? If they can & are applied once per hit, then Glacial Thorns with a reasonable amount of "opponent's attack value" would be very effetive against bosses.

5) Are they (especially the item mods) applied to the base attack/defence values (before buffs/other mods) or to the total (after buffs & other item mods)?

 

Hopefully I can get someone to join me in Open (with the blank level 200 characters) to test some of this out...

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I'm usually online ~8-10pm GMT (BST at the moment), which would be early/mid morning for you. I can mail you the blank character save files (or possibly just attach them here possibly?), they're quite useful since they allow you to test various things (though only at end-game).

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Well...Im probli not gonna be free the next few mornings. Exams, work and revision are kinda eating my time up. My last exam is next thursday so unless you can wait looks like someone else will have to volunteer. I did just make myself a level 200 toon quickly though :) Wasnt too hard. But yeah, if you can email the toons or something...can they be PM'd or would you need an email address?

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I think Gogo/Schot were having bandwidth/storeage issues so they disabled attachements. I could PM them to you on the SIF/DA forum though (or just email them to you if you'd prefer). The save files have been .rar'd & have all of the sets for each class.

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DB, we'll see if Schot can help with those chars to you via email. I'm interested in knowing about this as well... all about Nimbus's second mod.

 

Llama, if I finish work quickly today we can hook up. You got some levelled HE's?

 

:)

 

gogo

 

p.s. omgod...I was just thinking about this..could you imagine...if the second mod, chance to reduce opponent's attack.. actually stacked? Against Guardians... zomg :lol:

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Llama, if I finish work quickly today we can hook up. You got some levelled HE's?

No, not really, which is why I wanted to test it with the level 200 characters (they also have more CAs levels avaliable to them which makes it a lot easier to test higher values) & there'd be no potential for killing a HC character.

 

Test Scheme:

Player A: High Elf, dump a load of points into Mystic Focus (so you can mod Raging Nimbus without taking the Lore, as this will be tested later, also to give you a decent regen time for RN & GT), pump Grand Invigoration as well for the regen times. Also, get maxxed attack speed with any weapon & >100% chance to hit.

Player B: Dryad (the seraphim & TG's attack-boosting buff also boosts defence, which might make it a difficult for the HE to hit them), get the buff as high as possible, put a load of points into a weapon-lore & wield that weapon (to give a nice high attack value).

 

Tests:

1) Player A equips some of the -attack value % gear, player B notes their attack rating while player A hits them with a weapon. What happens to B's attack value (how much does it go down by, does the effect "decay", does the effect stack from multiple hits)

2) As 1, but A uses a multi-hit CA (Glacial Thorns).

3) A casts level 1 Raging Nimbus modded with Roar (with level 0 Mystic Lore).

4) A casts high level Raging Nimbus modded with Roar (with level 0 Mystic Lore).

5) As 3 but with high level Mystic Lore.

6) As 4 but with high level Mystic Lore.

 

B takes note of their attack rating over a number of hits, teleports away (does this clear the effect?) & also notes down their base attack rating & the AR with buff.

 

p.s. omgod...I was just thinking about this..could you imagine...if the second mod, chance to reduce opponent's attack.. actually stacked? Against Guardians... zomg :)
With Glacial Thorns, yeah, that was what I was getting at in your other thread... Especially since it's a %...
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Llama I didn't invision the jewelry mods as something that occurs 'on hit'... I thought they would globally lower monsters attack (or defense) 'all the time'....

 

Pillar could get pretty insane if its stackable..

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Llama I didn't invision the jewelry mods as something that occurs 'on hit'... I thought they would globally lower monsters attack (or defense) 'all the time'....

I think I've seen the "blue/green swirly circle" denoting (various negative effects including -attack as far as I'm aware) attack rating reductions from the likes of Cleaning Brilliance (due to the AS reduction from the mod) when a damage pulse occurs & from Radiant Pillar with the Delude mod (wasn't there before I chose the mod, though it could also denote that the target's been Weakened). I think I've also seen it due to the -% AR, though I'd need to check.

 

that's why I'd want to test with a non-magic damage element CA (ie, not Radiant Pillar), since the graphic for Weaken covers a multitude of sins.

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I did some limited testing with ~50% opponent's attack value against some wolves (using a physical/fire staff) & successful hits caused the green/blue swirly circle which lasted for ~10 seconds (longer than a non-Damage Lore Mastery fire/poison DoT). Since there weren't any other mods on the character this could only have been the -opponent's attack value.

 

Glacial Thorns did also give this effect, but Fireball didn't, so I was probably seeing Freeze with GT & the item-mod based attack reduction probably doesn't get procced by spells. :sigh:

 

I should be meeting up with Dobs later to go through the other tests.

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I've always been of the impression that most of these mods do not stack.

 

@claudius, I am thinking like you are... if OCE and COCE are always active, then ODV and OAV must also fit into this category. So, there wouldn't be a way to stack those modifiers. Heck, now that I really think about it, I suppose opp. armour:Physical would be in this category as well!

 

Spells.txt would give us the answers.... if I only knew what the "flags" were really doing. ie. flag 32 may be "upon sucessful hit, apply effect" but flag 128 may be a "global effect" which is active all the time...

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On all successful hits, yes.

 

Some testing with Dobs:

Baseline AR: 1,243.

 

Roar mod = 50 + 2 * CA level

 

level 1 RN (-52) AR -> 818

level 41 RN (-132) AR -> 536

level 68 RN (-186) AR -> 434

level 80 RN (-210) AR -> 401

level 92 RN (-234) AR -> 372

level 101.8 RN (-253.6) AR -> 351

 

The AR gets reduced on the first hit from RN, then lasts for the duration of the spell. The AR reduction from multiple RN do stack, but it's obviously not an absolute reduction (2 level 92 RN's reduced the AR to 119). Mystic Lore has no effect. The only thing that I can think of is that it's a % reduction rather than an absolute reduction, but not of the displayed AR (probably a "base" figure).

 

I've always been of the impression that most of these mods do not stack.

 

@claudius, I am thinking like you are... if OCE and COCE are always active, then ODV and OAV must also fit into this category. So, there wouldn't be a way to stack those modifiers. Heck, now that I really think about it, I suppose opp. armour:Physical would be in this category as well!

 

I think the difference with OCE/COCE is that they're used in the player's chance to hit calc (just like +% attack), rather than a status that is applied to the target that's been hit. I tried ~-50% OAV on staff hits & they stacked & Dobs could see his AR being reduced after each hit. But for spell-based OAV, it was applied on the first hit & expired with the spell.

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Nice work there Llama, might have to write something into the wiki now. If you're cool to email me those toons let me no and I'll pm my email, otherwise I can just wait for gogo/schots solution, Im in no dire need of them.

Edited by Dragon Brother
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Yeah, I'm trying to work out what is actually happening with Raging Nimbus. I think it's a % reduction with 50% being the base figure with significant diminishing returns at higher levels. I'm just not sure where in the attack value calculation it's applying the reduction (possibly with all of the other % bonuses, ie, after all of the absolute bonuses, though that's not how the defence reduction on S1's Greed CA worked).

 

I'm happy to mail them to you if you want to PM me your email address.

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Yeah, I'm trying to work out what is actually happening with Raging Nimbus. I think it's a % reduction with 50% being the base figure with significant diminishing returns at higher levels. I'm just not sure where in the attack value calculation it's applying the reduction (possibly with all of the other % bonuses, ie, after all of the absolute bonuses, though that's not how the defence reduction on S1's Greed CA worked).

 

I'm happy to mail them to you if you want to PM me your email address.

 

50% reduction of the base attack/defense value you mean? Which is or isnt whats shown in the inventory? PM sent.

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Yeah, I think there's a diminishing returns formula that takes 50% + 2% per CA level & then spits out an end figure that's what is actually applied as a % reduction to the target's AV. Hence you don't get a 100% reduction after level 25. An alternative idea is that it's not using a diminishing returns formula (so level 1 = 52% reduction, level 2 = 54%, etc) but that it's taking the target's base AV & using the AV reduction % to give an absolute reduction which is then added in with all of the other figures (this is how S1 worked with the negative modifier from Greed & positive modifiers from Parry/Agility/etc), for example:

 

Target's Base AV = 1,000. It also has +150% AV & you're applying -60% (level 5) thus:

 

Target's AV = 1,000 - (1,000 * 0.6) + (1,000 * 1.5) = 1,900 (a "mere" 24% reduction, due to the large % bonus it already has).

 

I'll have to go back & check my figures as to what bonuses Dobs was wearing (& possibly borrow him again) to see if I can figure it out.

 

I might also be somewhat simpler for monsters, since I don't think they get the same range of bonuses as the player can (ie, item mods).

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I think it follows the same formula as the rest of the debuffs in the game. I was testing it. Give me a couple of mins and I'll add a pic compring the formula prediction to the results.

 

Edit: Heres the data, it appears to follow the formula: 1-1/(1+(x+y*CAlvl)/1000). Any discrepancies are probli becuse of rounding...

 

data.jpg

Edited by Dragon Brother
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You have to use 500 and 20, the actual values from the spells.txt. Those values were put there by someone who must have just divided by 10 to get what they thought was right.

Ahhh...

 

The division by 10 comes from the Spells.txt file giving most values as multiples of 10 (presumably to give more granularity). However, since these shouldn't be used as absolute figures, that changes things somewhat. So the (reasonable) assumption was that the CA was reducing the Attack Value by 50 + 2*CAlvl.

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You have to use 500 and 20, the actual values from the spells.txt. Those values were put there by someone who must have just divided by 10 to get what they thought was right.

Ahhh...

 

The division by 10 comes from the Spells.txt file giving most values as multiples of 10 (presumably to give more granularity). However, since these shouldn't be used as absolute figures, that changes things somewhat. So the (reasonable) assumption was that the CA was reducing the Attack Value by 50 + 2*CAlvl.

 

Yeah, thats what I assumed when I was lookin through the numbers too, until I noticed this formula on the token page on the wiki and tried to see how it fit and it worked a charm :P

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  • 1 year later...

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