Spaffo 0 Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 For Shadow Veiled Astral Lord, which Nether Allegiance setup is more performing in platinium/niobium? I've no experience on that and I'd like to hear some knowledgeable opinion Here what I was thinking: 1. Sharp Blades - Spectral Shield - Elite Equipment. I'm not very keen on this. Assuming that Sharp Blades gives a 25-33% increase in damage (looked at game scripts), we have: Number of Skeletons: 2 Damage: low Survivability: medium (they have the best defense available, but there are only 2 of them.) Manoeuvrability: high (being only 2, they don't get stuck as much as 3 or 4) 2. Sharp Blades - Commander - Elite Equipment Best damage, defense might be a problem. Number of Skeletons: 3 Damage: high Survivability: low Manoeuvrability: medium 3. Accomplice - Spectral Shield - Elite Equipment Good all-around. My preferred choice for now. Number of Skeletons: 3 Damage: medium Survivability: high (incoming damage is spread among 3 high-defense skeletons) Manoeuvrability: medium 4. Accomplice - Commander - Elite Equipment Hm. Bleah? Number of Skeletons: 4 Damage: high Survivability: low Manoeuvrability: low Very Important! Does Sharp Blades damage scale with Astral Lore? If so, setup 1. would see an increase in damage and become a preferred choice. Link to comment
Zeus331 0 Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 (edited) For Shadow Veiled Astral Lord, which Nether Allegiance setup is more performing in platinium/niobium? I've no experience on that and I'd like to hear some knowledgeable opinion Here what I was thinking: 1. Sharp Blades - Spectral Shield - Elite Equipment. I'm not very keen on this. Assuming that Sharp Blades gives a 25-33% increase in damage (looked at game scripts), we have: Number of Skeletons: 2 Damage: low Survivability: medium (they have the best defense available, but there are only 2 of them.) Manoeuvrability: high (being only 2, they don't get stuck as much as 3 or 4) 2. Sharp Blades - Commander - Elite Equipment Best damage, defense might be a problem. Number of Skeletons: 3 Damage: high Survivability: low Manoeuvrability: medium 3. Accomplice - Spectral Shield - Elite Equipment Good all-around. My preferred choice for now. Number of Skeletons: 3 Damage: medium Survivability: high (incoming damage is spread among 3 high-defense skeletons) Manoeuvrability: medium 4. Accomplice - Commander - Elite Equipment Hm. Bleah? Number of Skeletons: 4 Damage: high Survivability: low Manoeuvrability: low Very Important! Does Sharp Blades damage scale with Astral Lore? If so, setup 1. would see an increase in damage and become a preferred choice. From my understanding when you take sharp blades it upgrades the CA. I do know for a fact that Astral Focus allows you to eat more runes into NA therefore their damage will increase. I dont know if Astral Lore increade the damage also. I run on console your first set up with focus and lore at75 and ate enough runes to raise my skellies to 1.5 x my level and they kick butt. Edited August 23, 2010 by Zeus331 Link to comment
Spaffo 0 Posted August 24, 2010 Author Share Posted August 24, 2010 (edited) Astral Lore doesn't increase the skeletons damae directly, but I've read somewhere that it increases the damage bonus provided by Sharp Blades. I haven't seen any proof though. Anyone else who wants to share his playing experience? Edited August 24, 2010 by Spaffo Link to comment
wintermane 0 Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 I prefer 4 skels because I have found in all games with pet classes that 3 minions is about 2.5x as powerful as 2 and 4 minions is about 1.5x more powerful then 3. So while the blades and sheilds make up some of the loss the very simple fact is there is a HUGE power in numbers. Link to comment
claudius 104 Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 (edited) I use blades commander armor.... The reason is that I don't need the skeletons to be durable. They are just a side show and play second fiddle to skeletal towers. I don't care if they die.. They respawn eventually and they are not particularly related to killspeed of mobs. I use Shadow Veil builds and I never use them on dragons or guardians (etc) for fear that they precipitate Area of Effect. The offense is better than 4x skeletons I reason because it is multiplicate.... 4 skeletons do 2x the damage of 2 assuming they are all pounding. But 3 do 1.5 x and sharp blades deals 1.4 x... 1.5 multiplied by 1.4 = 2.1 which is slightly greater than 2.... Edited August 24, 2010 by claudius Link to comment
zconnor 1 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 I love the zookeeper role with the SW. I like the 4 skellies with the other minion CA, that raised one. They attack well enough and rarely wander off. When one does, I just re-cast. No problem. I miss my Necromancer with his 40+ minions in D2... Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) While testing at level 100+ in niobium, I was unable to disprove this hypothesis: 4 skeletons > 3 skeletons > 2 skeletons, regardless of equipment. Every spell has its own purpose. What the skeletons are really good for is ganging up on champions and bosses. And that's when 4x skeletons will be much better than fewer skeletons + better equipment. The ultimate defense boost for the skeletons would be a high-level Reflective Emanation (mods: Backlash, Antimagic, Idol). The > 25% reflect all is much better than a shield upgrade, plus the reflected damage improves their killing speed. This does require Concentration (for [buff] NA+RE) and some source of mod points for Malevolent Champion (such as Tactics Lore or MC Focus). If you want [buff] NA+SV+RE, then you would have to master Concentration with 75 hard skill points. (+skills items won't open the third buff slot.) Boosting minions attack and/or defense can be done very well through the temporary buffs, Augmenting Guidon and/or Rousing Command (with the gold party mod). They apply to all party members and can be modded to give other bonuses such as healing, attack/cast speed, movement speed, etc. Very useful. This greatly improves minions' contributions to any major battle. Plus those bonuses apply to the player! If you need "durable" minions, just cast Rallied Souls a few times. As long as you keep killing enemies, you can recast Rallied Souls. It doesn't matter if they die in a few seconds because new ones can be summoned to take their places. While they exist, they take damage and distract enemies -- instant "durability" for your army. I highly recommend the silver mod, Demand, which will let you summon up to 3 souls with a single cast. If you need consistent damage output, then Skeletal Fortification is a good idea. My advice is to ignore the ice damage mod. Also choose the mod that increases the number of projectiles. 2x arrows is a better idea than 1x stronger arrows. I don't really care about laying down multiple Skeletal Fortifications: one of them (plus my army) usually kills everything in sight before the cooldown wears off anyway. Note: party members only get 1/2 bonus from party-friendly buffs. Hybrid playstyles are another matter. Edited December 10, 2010 by BleachFan Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 (edited) Questions I still have about Nether Allegiance: Do any damage bonuses on equipment apply? Does -X% enemy chance to reflect melee reduce damage enemies reflect to player? Do any of Astral Lord Lore's bonuses apply to skeletons' attacks? Does Astral Lord Lore modify any skeletons' health/stats/attack/defense? More generally, the wiki page could be made much more useful IMO. UPDATE: New testing has shown the following have NO direct boost to the skeletons' damage: Intelligence Astral Lord Lore Astral Lord Focus Tactics Lore +X% Ice Damage (on rings) Ancient Magic Combat Discipline I have not yet tested equipment damage bonuses... Edited December 10, 2010 by BleachFan Link to comment
Munera 1 Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 The damage modification for NA gives extra poison damage, or increases damage % and damage conversion to poison? I've seen them poisoning enemies (and blades have the same animation as poison element) Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 The damage modification for NA gives extra poison damage, or increases damage % and damage conversion to poison? I've seen them poisoning enemies (and blades have the same animation as poison element) Sadly, I could not get skeletons with Sharp Blades mod to do any DoT, neither poison as you say nor deep wounds, as indicated by the game's files. My testing has been against Tybor, the first enemy defeated by Shadow Warrior in Niobium. Does he have some strange immunity to poison and/or deep wounds? You are right, their swords do appear to have a similar animation -- green fog along the blade -- as seen on weapons with poison damage or poison damage conversion, but I saw no signs of poisoning. But remember that the skeletons' equipment has some weird green special effects applied to it, so the "green clouds" may be something else. The skeletons did repeatedly inflict a specific status on him, one with a blue circle and yellow swirls. Is this the new weaken status graphic? Either it's that or freeze. Freeze would make more sense since much of the skeletons' standard damage is ice. Can you reproduce the poison you saw earlier, in controlled testing? (Try to eliminate all other variables, except the one being tested.) Link to comment
Munera 1 Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 Perhaps it was one of the garemma zombies I had casted then... So it seems that nothing affects NA but the focus and team power up CAs. I wonder what is the max attack speed of the skeletons. Could you try to increase their attack speed with rousing command and augmenting guidon in high level? That would be an indirect way of increasing their damage. Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 (edited) So it seems that nothing affects NA but the focus and team power up CAs. I wonder what is the max attack speed of the skeletons. Could you try to increase their attack speed with rousing command and augmenting guidon in high level? That would be an indirect way of increasing their damage. Yes, I've concluded the only way to directly increase Nether Allegiance's skeletons' damage is to boost the level of the summoned skeletons, by boosting the CA level. Focus, Stamina, -x% regen penalty from buffs, etc. and probably Survival Bonus (since it boosts stamina?) simply let you use a higher CA level though of course there are diminishing returns to this approach. Indirectly, Rousing Command and Augmenting Guidon can improve attack rating and attack speed of the skeletons. I only tested DPH, not DPS, so I can't tell if the attack speed bonus from Rousing Command improves the skeletons' damage output (and if so, to what degree?). But the attack rating bonuses from AG and RC are huge -- just look at the player's stats -- which the skeletons sorely need against bosses and champions. Reflect from the party mod of Reflective Emanation can also boost the skeletons' damage indirectly. For crowd control in niobium, try the following: high effective hit rate (player) ranged weapon with high attack speed multiple seconds of RPH (regen per hit) low regen combo: Scything Sweep + Frenzied Rampage, used to recharge:Skeletal Fortification Augmenting Guidon Rousing Command Rallied Souls The temp. buffs have high cooldowns, but RPH seems to work on them anyway. I should check it later with testing. Stacking RPH to repeatedly recharge and recast the high-cooldown skills would greatly improve the effectiveness of minion-based Shadow Warriors. Edited December 11, 2010 by BleachFan Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 (edited) DPS (damage per second) testing has been difficult. I upped Tybor's health to > 400,000 and timed the following combinations: Nether Allegiance (Accomplice, Commander, Elite Equipment) Nether Allegiance (Sharp Blades, Commander, Elite Equipment) Test runs varied between 1m 8s and 1m 22s with either combination of mods. Factors making test runs inconsistent: Attack and Defense of skeletons and Tybor Critical hits by skeletons Between 1 and 4 times each fight, Tybor would stop and walk around for a few seconds. Between 1 and 4 times each fight, the 4th skeleton would do the same thing. In theory: Mod Case 0 (no mods) Total Damage : 100% + 100% = 200% Total Health : 100% + 100% = 200% Status Effect : 100% + 100% = 200% Mod Case 1 (Sharp Blades) Total Damage : 143% + 143% = 286% Total Health : 100% + 100% = 200% Status Effect : 100% + 100% = 200% Mod Case 2 (Accomplice) Total Damage : 100% + 100% + 100% = 300% Total Health : 100% + 100% + 100% = 300% Status Effect : 100% + 100% + 100% = 300% Mod Case 3 (Sharp Blades + Commander) Total Damage : 143% + 143% + 143% = 429% Total Health : 100% + 100% + 100% = 300% Status Effect : 100% + 100% + 100% = 300% Mod Case 4 (Accomplice + Commander) Total Damage : 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% = 400% Total Health : 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% = 400% Status Effect : 100% + 100% + 100% + 100% = 400% Naturally I omitted the gold mods. Edited December 12, 2010 by BleachFan Link to comment
Munera 1 Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 The temp. buffs have high cooldowns, but RPH seems to work on them anyway. I think they only work for reg. time. I've casted so many times augmenting guidon and u always have to wait 20 seconds to do it again, doesnt matter how many times u hit with rph So your tests show that if you want to focus on the minions' damage (as AG gives enough defence and hp/s and RE protects them too), you have to take sharp blades and commander. More total damage, more damage per guy and maneuvers are easier. These skelletons inflict physical damage and I've checked that lowering opponent's physical armor increases their damage (Demonic Blow mod Frailty gives a lot of this) Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 (edited) The temp. buffs have high cooldowns, but RPH seems to work on them anyway. I think they only work for reg. time. I've casted so many times augmenting guidon and u always have to wait 20 seconds to do it again, doesnt matter how many times u hit with rph So your tests show that if you want to focus on the minions' damage (as AG gives enough defence and hp/s and RE protects them too), you have to take sharp blades and commander. More total damage, more damage per guy and maneuvers are easier. These skelletons inflict physical damage and I've checked that lowering opponent's physical armor increases their damage (Demonic Blow mod Frailty gives a lot of this) Yeah, I retested RPH and it only affects the regen. What I was seeing earlier was the direct attack combo reducing and immediately refilling (via RPH) the regens of the temporary buffs: lots of up/down motion in the timers but the RPH never reduced the cooldowns. No, I am convinced that the skeletons do mostly ice damage. Do some questing in the ghost region, or take on The Phantom, using nothing but the skeletons. Their damage against ice resisting monsters is terrible. On one character my skeletons were doing 500 damage to regular (I.e. only phys. resist) opponents, 250 damage to ghosts and ice elementals, and a mere 40-70 damage to The Phantom. The boss fight was painful to watch. About the mods, I said that my tests were inconclusive -- we can't compare anything with a 14s margin of error -- and for the moment I have found no reason to choose the Sharp Blades mod. There are advantages to having 4 skeletons, beyond damage. 4 skeletons will be better against larger crowds and will apply the status effect more often. I would need to see some meaningful DPS numbers that show Sharp Blades+Commander to be significantly better than Accomplice+Commander. Edited December 13, 2010 by BleachFan Link to comment
claudius 104 Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 I hear you about the boss fights with skeletons. Especially with the same element. If the skeletons are high level they do not need guidon in my experience. But I don't think they do much damage. They are very diffuse so its hard to say. Against the boss for a shadow warrior with the trump of % LL I would welcome them. The temp. buffs have high cooldowns, but RPH seems to work on them anyway. I think they only work for reg. time. I've casted so many times augmenting guidon and u always have to wait 20 seconds to do it again, doesnt matter how many times u hit with rph So your tests show that if you want to focus on the minions' damage (as AG gives enough defence and hp/s and RE protects them too), you have to take sharp blades and commander. More total damage, more damage per guy and maneuvers are easier. These skelletons inflict physical damage and I've checked that lowering opponent's physical armor increases their damage (Demonic Blow mod Frailty gives a lot of this) Yeah, I retested RPH and it only affects the regen. What I was seeing earlier was the direct attack combo reducing and immediately refilling (via RPH) the regens of the temporary buffs: lots of up/down motion in the timers but the RPH never reduced the cooldowns. No, I am convinced that the skeletons do mostly ice damage. Do some questing in the ghost region, or take on The Phantom, using nothing but the skeletons. Their damage against ice resisting monsters is terrible. On one character my skeletons were doing 500 damage to regular (I.e. only phys. resist) opponents, 250 damage to ghosts and ice elementals, and a mere 40-70 damage to The Phantom. The boss fight was painful to watch. About the mods, I said that my tests were inconclusive -- we can't compare anything with a 14s margin of error -- and for the moment I have found no reason to choose the Sharp Blades mod. There are advantages to having 4 skeletons, beyond damage. 4 skeletons will be better against larger crowds and will apply the status effect more often. I would need to see some meaningful DPS numbers that show Sharp Blades+Commander to be significantly better than Accomplice+Commander. Link to comment
Aegis 256 Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 Thanks for the hard work testing this. So I guess any combination of mods ought to do. My first SW had NA modded to four skeletons, and while not exactly strong, the numbers and their toughness were good enough for me. Link to comment
Munera 1 Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 No, I am convinced that the skeletons do mostly ice damage. Do some questing in the ghost region, or take on The Phantom, using nothing but the skeletons. Their damage against ice resisting monsters is terrible. On one character my skeletons were doing 500 damage to regular (I.e. only phys. resist) opponents, 250 damage to ghosts and ice elementals, and a mere 40-70 damage to The Phantom. The boss fight was painful to watch. As far as I'm concerned, "ice" opponents (guys who deal ice damage and are resilient to it) usually have high physical damage resistances (damage mitigation). Ice Lord for instance. You can't beat him with physical damage simply because you won't hurt him. Maybe we should look what your opponents' stats are in the Sacred 2 folders. Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 No, I am convinced that the skeletons do mostly ice damage. Do some questing in the ghost region, or take on The Phantom, using nothing but the skeletons. Their damage against ice resisting monsters is terrible. On one character my skeletons were doing 500 damage to regular (I.e. only phys. resist) opponents, 250 damage to ghosts and ice elementals, and a mere 40-70 damage to The Phantom. The boss fight was painful to watch. As far as I'm concerned, "ice" opponents (guys who deal ice damage and are resilient to it) usually have high physical damage resistances (damage mitigation). Ice Lord for instance. You can't beat him with physical damage simply because you won't hurt him. Maybe we should look what your opponents' stats are in the Sacred 2 folders. You are correct, the game files say the skeletons' swords' damage is physical. Why do they often trigger the previously-described status effect? I.e. blue circle surrounded by yellow swirls Link to comment
Munera 1 Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 I think that's not a specific animation, but a general one. Every thing which is not considered a secondary damage effect (like opponent's defense/attack value/ physical armor will trigger that animation. Stun is also an exception as well. Btw that effect happens when modding Sharp Blades or without any mod? Perhaps the answer lies in the folders again Link to comment
BleachFan 3 Posted December 15, 2010 Share Posted December 15, 2010 Thanks, but I'm a little tired right now. I have the saves backed up, so it'll be easy to load them and retest. Thing is, how is it possible for them to apply secondary effects? Perhaps they benefit from -enemy attack/defense on my equipment, or even crit (which I equip whenever nothing better is available). Someone mentioned that the Sharp Blades mod's code was meant to enable deep wounds, but I watched the health bar a lot and never saw it jumping around like that. Usually when my character applies deep wounds, I notice it (and find it very annoying). Link to comment
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