The Goddess of Shopping...

[wolfie2kX 528]

Exactly what DB said. Having Bargaining at insane levels hasn't really yielded anything you won't already see at level 75 - so far. There IS, however, method to my madness with this. I'm planning on going on a bit of a shopping spree - visiting merchants far and wide to see if I can duplicate my previous experience with finding uniques at merchants that I didn't sell them. There is one thing about cranking the Bargaining up as high as I have... The Chance for Special Offers on my TG is up to 25.2%. And I've got most of the merchants open to me. Me thinks it's time to get to the bottom of this mystery...

 

I would be very interested to see what you find out too, wolfie.

 

Even if it turns out, that only some vendors have the ability to sell set and unique items I could check on them to see what is different there. Could be a nice addition to CM patch, if the polls turn that direction (there might be people who think that uniques and sets should not be sold by merchants).

 

I figured you would be...

 

I'll be sure to keep everyone posted.

[gogoblender 3,070]

Could be a nice addition to CM patch, if the polls turn that direction (there might be people who think that uniques and sets should not be sold by merchants).

 

eek!

n0ooooo, please no, I beg of you Uniques and and sets as drops...please please

 

One of the most powerful draws in ARPG's is the concept of drops. Take that away, and I believe one of the fundamental, exciting premises of the game is removed.

 

 

gogo

[Dragon Brother 619]

Could be a nice addition to CM patch, if the polls turn that direction (there might be people who think that uniques and sets should not be sold by merchants).

 

eek!

n0ooooo, please no, I beg of you Uniques and and sets as drops...please please

 

One of the most powerful draws in ARPG's is the concept of drops. Take that away, and I believe one of the fundamental, exciting premises of the game is removed.

 

 

gogo

I'll add my vote to that. It would completely break the balance of the game in regards to items and drops. And also, it was originally a glitch that uniques/sets/legendaries could be dropped which ascaron fixed. I don't think that this is something that should be changed, except to prevent from happening what happened to wolfie.

[wolfie2kX 528]

I'll add my vote to that. It would completely break the balance of the game in regards to items and drops. And also, it was originally a glitch that uniques/sets/legendaries could be dropped which ascaron fixed. I don't think that this is something that should be changed, except to prevent from happening what happened to wolfie.

Er.. What happened to me that needs to be prevented...? If you mean finding uniques at a merchant's - I don't think it's such a terrible thing - provided its something that happens as rarely as it seems to be happening. It would also help if such items were something you could actually USE... Come on.. What's a Temple Guardian supposed to do with a physical shield or a bow - besides sell 'em?

 

Either way... I don't really see what the big deal is if a unique item can be found at a merchant's? Sheesh... If you really want an item - you can simply go to the Darkmatters download section, grab a copy and extract what you want from the file. AND that way it doesn't even cost you anything except maybe a few minutes backing up your existing chest file, extracting the zip, loading the game, grabbing the item you want and then saving the game and exiting so you can restore the original chest file.

[Dragon Brother 619]

I'll add my vote to that. It would completely break the balance of the game in regards to items and drops. And also, it was originally a glitch that uniques/sets/legendaries could be dropped which ascaron fixed. I don't think that this is something that should be changed, except to prevent from happening what happened to wolfie.

Er.. What happened to me that needs to be prevented...? If you mean finding uniques at a merchant's - I don't think it's such a terrible thing - provided its something that happens as rarely as it seems to be happening. It would also help if such items were something you could actually USE... Come on.. What's a Temple Guardian supposed to do with a physical shield or a bow - besides sell 'em?

 

Either way... I don't really see what the big deal is if a unique item can be found at a merchant's? Sheesh... If you really want an item - you can simply go to the Darkmatters download section, grab a copy and extract what you want from the file. AND that way it doesn't even cost you anything except maybe a few minutes backing up your existing chest file, extracting the zip, loading the game, grabbing the item you want and then saving the game and exiting so you can restore the original chest file.

Well, actually, thats the part of the download section I don't like, its all well and good to upload a build at level whatever so someone can get an idea of how effective it is, I feel the items are kind of a game breaker however. Don't worry about searching for ages to find a kaldur's, just grab your chest and you can dual wield them from beginning to end. Socket in a bunch of amulets of greed from your chests and you have a premade bargaining suit, don't worry about spending time searching for all the necessary jewellery to build one normally.

 

However, I realise that this is something that comes down to personal opinion and people can choose whether or not they want to do this and thats fine. But, the ascaron devs intended for us to be unable to shop uniques, sets and legendaries and I feel thats how it should remain. If there is one merchant that can sell them intentionally then ok, sure, but I would still probably feel that was more likely an oversight than on purpose.

[gogoblender 3,070]

However, I realise that this is something that comes down to personal opinion and people can choose whether or not they want to do this and thats fine. But, the ascaron devs intended for us to be unable to shop uniques, sets and legendaries and I feel thats how it should remain. If there is one merchant that can sell them intentionally then ok, sure, but I would still probably feel that was more likely an oversight than on purpose.

 

Limits on powers is what provides interest and curiosity.

 

I think DB is hitting it on the head here. Parts of the what his happening is cool, but too much of it...and we will have shot ourselves in the foot.

 

Why are people downloading the CM Patch? It's because they still feel there is a sense of balance that will not throw out too much, the balance of a perceived resource to spend some time on. I mean... if peeps can buy the best items in the game off hand...what's the point of the game anymore?

 

So... we do things in measures, and we always have to be careful about this.

 

All downloads available of items? Yes

All downloads available of legendaries and uniques? Yes

 

All downloads of a button that says YOU WIN? ... ahhh, see what just happened?

 

We got to the interest/finish line too quickly. And this is where pacing comes in.

 

The CM Patch team has been very VERY careful to make sure that the balancing is exquisite. There is dialogue, discourse, conversations tween the best and most respected players in the game..the ones that understand patience, resolve and determination in creating the original level 200 builds. When you stick at a project for that long in HC servers you want a way to instill a sense of expectation and serendipity. This entire system, arpg is based upon what Blizzard instituted way back when when the technology of random items being generated changed all gaming as we know it.

 

This concept of the drop is absolutely integral to to this game. Legendaries and Uniques are the best things in the game.

 

Don't we want to gift players with some kind of anticipation, and at least pretend that it's got some drama left in it?

 

If we allow all the best items to just be bought, as easily as walking into a sears department store...what's left to do in the game?

 

And no, we are SO not gonna start playing Neopets.

 

never

 

NEVAH!

 

 

gogo

[belgarathmth 21]

I agree with Gogo, at least partially. The main replayability and fun of the game, other than trying different builds, is the drops.

 

I like to compare playing Sacred (and Diablo, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege, et al) to playing the slot machines in Vegas, only without risking any of your money.

 

You get the flashing lights, the luxurious environment, the pretty colors and pictures, the spinning "wheels" (in this case the camera and the enemies), and the thrill of "hitting the jackpot".

 

The question becomes whether providing a slight chance of finding a unique or a set item at a merchant by investing huge amounts of points and equipment choices in Bargaining would take away from the fun of the game.

 

I'm not sure it would, really, if the chance were small enough, say if uniques and set items were only in tier 12, and used the breakpoint system as set out by Antitrust.

 

I know that when I was playing Fallen Angel, and my only hope of getting lightsabers was through opening tier 12 through Bargaining, I had the same thrill of "hitting the jackpot" upon finding a lightsaber at a merchant as I get through getting a set item through a drop.

[wolfie2kX 528]

@Wolfie, thanks for the further info. It sounds like Enhanced Perception suffers from the same diminishing-returns-to-the-point-of-uselessness as Bargaining.

 

I like to spend one point in Enhanced Perception in order to unlock "+% to find valuables" on items. Other than that and the extra points from relics, to get a slightly better probability of blue potions and yellow-green-orange-gold items dropping, I doubt that it's worth it to ever spend more than one point.

 

Bargaining used to be worth it for the +all skills jewelry, but now that +all skills is nerfed, that doesn't seem to be worth it either.

 

You're eventually going to get anything you could get through maxed out Bargaining or Enhanced Perception through regular drops.

 

Based on your data, my conclusion would be that one point in Bargaining in order to open up a chance for yellows at merchants, and/or one point in Enhanced Perception in order to unlock "+% to find valuables" on items, would be the way to go.

 

Your last post implies this conclusion, that giving priority to maxing either of these skills is costing you way too much in offensive and defensive ability, the net effect being to make the game less fun.

 

Further info on EP...

 

I just took a High Elf I started in Silver from the begining of the game right through to the end. I decided to play this one through with the idea that I'd be shooting for three achievements I haven't gotten yet - 3 of the last 4 I didn't have.

 

1.) Survivalist - Completing the game without dying.

2.) Dedicated - Completing with less than 20% of the map revealed.

3.) Scrooge - Completing the game without buying anything.

 

The last one - Group Hug - I'm guessing isn't gonna be happening anytime soon given the fact the Sacred 2 servers seem kinda dead these days...

 

All in all, given I hadn't really faced nearly as many baddies as I did while widely exploring the map, I still managed to make it to level 78. My character had no general skills (I.e. no bargaining, no Enhanced Pereception, etc...). I still managed to kill over 5200 baddies. I still managed to pick up about a dozen set, Unique and Legendary items. Mostly Uniques.. I have approximately 24 hours invested into the character. My survival Bonus is at about 61.3%.

 

So what have I learned in this little experiment...

 

1.) The higher the bad guy's level, the better chance to have him drop something good..

2.) This can trump EP, Bargaining and even Chance to Find Valuables.

3.) Yes, having EP and such can improve your chances of finding goodies, but I think facing higher level opponents (yellows and reds) increases the odds of finding goodies more than having EP or CtFV...

[essjayehm 58]

 

Further info on EP...

 

I just took a High Elf I started in Silver from the begining of the game right through to the end. I decided to play this one through with the idea that I'd be shooting for three achievements I haven't gotten yet - 3 of the last 4 I didn't have.

 

1.) Survivalist - Completing the game without dying.

2.) Dedicated - Completing with less than 20% of the map revealed.

3.) Scrooge - Completing the game without buying anything.

 

The last one - Group Hug - I'm guessing isn't gonna be happening anytime soon given the fact the Sacred 2 servers seem kinda dead these days...

 

All in all, given I hadn't really faced nearly as many baddies as I did while widely exploring the map, I still managed to make it to level 78. My character had no general skills (I.e. no bargaining, no Enhanced Pereception, etc...). I still managed to kill over 5200 baddies. I still managed to pick up about a dozen set, Unique and Legendary items. Mostly Uniques.. I have approximately 24 hours invested into the character. My survival Bonus is at about 61.3%.

 

So what have I learned in this little experiment...

 

1.) The higher the bad guy's level, the better chance to have him drop something good..

2.) This can trump EP, Bargaining and even Chance to Find Valuables.

3.) Yes, having EP and such can improve your chances of finding goodies, but I think facing higher level opponents (yellows and reds) increases the odds of finding goodies more than having EP or CtFV...

Wow, Wolfie... 78 levels in just Silver, with <20% map? You must've been farming a little?

 

But you do offer a good "perception" on finding the goodies in the game!

 

Point 1 is correct, to a degree. I have proven to myself that farming low-level baddies (ie with white circles under them) will almost never drop a unique/set piece (console version). But, if I keep pushing my toon and fighting baddies with the red cicles underneath, they will always give good drops. BUT, taking a level 20 toon into Gold difficulty did not proc better drops than taking a level 40 into Gold. (ie a 20-level difference had same drop-quality as 5-7 level difference)

 

I think point 2 is wrong. It just adds to the chances of finding "higher-tier" items, not "trumps"

 

Point 3 is how I've felt for a long time.

[Silver_fox 397]

All the things that go on in this thread are nice as long as they are a purely theoretical experiment. Because we all know that such a thing is normally impossible - you just can't get a complete mutation set and enough examples of one certain necklace to place in all the sockets. At least it's impossible for the difficulty and character level of Wolfie's TG. I mean it's impossible if you try to obtain the items by playing the game, not just download them.

 

Also, about making uniques and sets available in shops - it's many times 'NO'. During the last month I was answering a lot of questions about CM on the russian forums. And many questions were about the balance. 50% of the players was asking 'Is it possible to make...' and proposing some kind of exploit just because they thought it'd be nice to have such a thing. The other 50% asked something like 'I don't like fan patches because they usually insert exploits. Are you sure that CM isn't like this?' So I have a strong feeling that making any kind of thing that Ascaron didn't want to make would scare some players and prevent them from using CM.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Silver_fox

[essjayehm 58]

I would typically agree with your post, Silver (I am a purist at heart)... but...

 

I think that the "theoretical" tests with the mutation set + Necklace of Greed in every slot was actually intended by the game developers. But we really should not argue over intentions, for obvious reasons.

 

How about we compare the "selling" of Diablo 2 (or WOW, or w/e) items? At least it is free here!

 

Personally, I do not like to see "every" item available for download either, but as the player base/community starts to dwindle (as it has done in the past few months), the availability of any one specific item is really starting to approach 0 - the people who have found them are not playing anymore, language barriers, hoarders, etc.

 

So I do believe that having some of the items that make "builds" playable is a very, very good idea.

Edited April 12, 2011 by essjayehm

[Dragon Brother 619]

I would typically agree with your post, Silver (I am a purist at heart)... but...

 

I think that the "theoretical" tests with the mutation set + Necklace of Greed in every slot was actually intended by the game developers. But we really should not argue over intentions, for obvious reasons.

 

How about we compare the "selling" of Diablo 2 (or WOW, or w/e) items? At least it is free here!

 

Personally, I do not like to see "every" item available for download either, but as the player base/community starts to dwindle (as it has done in the past few months), the availability of any one specific item is really starting to approach 0 - the people who have found them are not playing anymore, language barriers, hoarders, etc.

 

So I do believe that having some of the items that make "builds" playable is a very, very good idea.

I bet if you looked at the savefiles most being downloaded it will have Kal'Durs at the top and probably nothing will be close.

[Stormwing 40]

DB: Indeedo. Did that myself too, though I haven't used 'em much. It was just nice to see that fabled item, even if only for one moment.

And I did get myself one later with a different character. That time it's title was golden(w/e), like any unique, not orange like the on in the download. (Maybe there still is hope for me to get more of 'em. )

 

Anyways, IMHO, getting that setup is indeed plausible without the downloads, but it surely would take some helluva lotta time... Without sneaking around the balance.txt, I've ever only seen couple of those ammies in my playthroughs. Usually it's the Circle of Life, etc crappy things I won't ever need...

[wolfie2kX 528]

All the things that go on in this thread are nice as long as they are a purely theoretical experiment. Because we all know that such a thing is normally impossible - you just can't get a complete mutation set and enough examples of one certain necklace to place in all the sockets. At least it's impossible for the difficulty and character level of Wolfie's TG. I mean it's impossible if you try to obtain the items by playing the game, not just download them.

 

Also, about making uniques and sets available in shops - it's many times 'NO'. During the last month I was answering a lot of questions about CM on the russian forums. And many questions were about the balance. 50% of the players was asking 'Is it possible to make...' and proposing some kind of exploit just because they thought it'd be nice to have such a thing. The other 50% asked something like 'I don't like fan patches because they usually insert exploits. Are you sure that CM isn't like this?' So I have a strong feeling that making any kind of thing that Ascaron didn't want to make would scare some players and prevent them from using CM.

 

Of course it's a purely theoretical exercise. And under "normal" circumstances, it would probably take a very, very long time to come up with the dozen or so Necklaces of Greed and the dozen or so Urtak's Sparkles, not to mention the full Mutation set needed to make this setup work. The idea behind it all was to take those two skills to the extreme to see exactly what, if any effect they have on merchants.

 

Thus far, I'm sorry to report, I haven't seen enough of an improvement over base Bargaining Mastery to consider it justified either. Still, it was kind of amusing to see just how insanely over the top you could get with it. I haven't seen any further Uniques in the merchant's window either. It may have been a very, very rare glitch.

 

As far as making Uniques drop regularly at the merchants... I'm not so sure that would be a good thing either.

[Dragon Brother 619]

Thus far, I'm sorry to report, I haven't seen enough of an improvement over base Bargaining Mastery to consider it justified either. Still, it was kind of amusing to see just how insanely over the top you could get with it. I haven't seen any further Uniques in the merchant's window either. It may have been a very, very rare glitch.

 

As far as making Uniques drop regularly at the merchants... I'm not so sure that would be a good thing either.

That's what you would expect, once you have bargaining at high enough a level to be able to shop the max tier it can, more points will only increase the percentage of gold items in the shops which does raise the chance that one of them will be more useful.

[wolfie2kX 528]

Wow, Wolfie... 78 levels in just Silver, with <20% map? You must've been farming a little?

 

But you do offer a good "perception" on finding the goodies in the game!

 

Point 1 is correct, to a degree. I have proven to myself that farming low-level baddies (ie with white circles under them) will almost never drop a unique/set piece (console version). But, if I keep pushing my toon and fighting baddies with the red cicles underneath, they will always give good drops. BUT, taking a level 20 toon into Gold difficulty did not proc better drops than taking a level 40 into Gold. (ie a 20-level difference had same drop-quality as 5-7 level difference)

 

I think point 2 is wrong. It just adds to the chances of finding "higher-tier" items, not "trumps"

 

Point 3 is how I've felt for a long time.

 

Nope... No farming. Pretty much going from Point A to Point B - doing the primary quest and most of the class specific quest. When I flipped the switch in the Great Machine I had 19.84% revealed. I honestly got worried by the time I got to the Jungle that I wasn't going to make it - so I stopped doing the class quest when I got there. In fact, after I did the switch flipping, I reloaded the game and went back to the Archeologist Camp and did the last 3 - 4 parts of the class quest - and found my Map Revealed stat was at 20.56% - so it's a good thing I stopped when I did.

 

As far as point 2... I think we're in agreement - Beating up a mob of white ringed enemies - even if your EP is maxed out isn't likely to yield anything more than bupkus. Beating up on a bunch of yellow or even red enemies with NO EP is far more likely to yield something that's worth writing home (or even posting on DM) about.

 

Ergo, going after higher level baddies without EP trumps going after low level baddies with all the EP your character can have...

Edited April 13, 2011 by wolfie2kX

[wolfie2kX 528]

Thus far, I'm sorry to report, I haven't seen enough of an improvement over base Bargaining Mastery to consider it justified either. Still, it was kind of amusing to see just how insanely over the top you could get with it. I haven't seen any further Uniques in the merchant's window either. It may have been a very, very rare glitch.

 

As far as making Uniques drop regularly at the merchants... I'm not so sure that would be a good thing either.

That's what you would expect, once you have bargaining at high enough a level to be able to shop the max tier it can, more points will only increase the percentage of gold items in the shops which does raise the chance that one of them will be more useful.

 

The thing is - the time I did see those uniques in the merchant's bin, the character I was playing at thet time did NOT have a mastery of Bargaining (still doesn't). Nor was I using a bargaining suit. So I have NO idea just what was going on - which is why I posted.

[wolfie2kX 528]

In case anyone's interested...

 

I decided to post a couple of pics showing my HE with no EP and Bargaining showing the general build.

 

 

This build was primarily a Delphic Arcana bent character with some Pyro tendencies. Since I wasn't able to shop, just dump stuff I didn't need/want, I used my trusty reserve of armor and a couple of higher end bargainers to get the job done.

 

Now, this build is NOT what I would recommend for the feint of heart. She is not a mega-boss killer. Her primary offense was Cobalt Strike followed by Blazing Tempest and Incendiary Shower for taking down more difficult opponents. Yes, she can kill bosses - but it's not exactly the most efficient. Certainly not as fast as most other builds. The primary thing here was to keep Combat Arts spammable. Most of my pyro skills were around 1 second or less. Even the Cobat Strike, with 10 runes eaten, had a 1.5 second regen time - and I had a pair of RpH rings that gave me a total of 0.8 /s RpH - making it mostly tolerable.

 

She's wearing the full Adornment of the Ancestors set and has an Arnum's Pathfinder in hand.

 

 

Note that the Adornment of the Ancestors set gives her a 1.2% LL - which is why this set was chosen.

 

 

All in all, I would NOT recommend this build for anything beyond Silver - unless you're suicidal.

[Dragon Brother 619]

I reckon you could easily take this toon past silver, especially with Adornments being changed to give %LL. With the pyro backing for damage and defense you can easily make the delphic tree effective as another source of damage. Id say the dispersal of skills into the ice aspect probably cut your effectiveness somewhat.