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JKtheWonderguy

Different look for masteries in Sacred 3

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I've always liked the Elder Scrolls way of leveling a skill. The more you do it, the better you are at it. I'd like to see this worked into Sacred 3 myself. How do y'all feel?

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I've never played Elder Scrolls, but I like the way this sounds... didn't Dungeon Siege also work this way?

 

:)

 

gogo

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Would be a cool idea....would love to see the skill/masteries visibly improve throughout the game. Would love to see some 'high-end' skills too. Something to look forward to from lvls 150-200.

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I'm not all that excited about the idea. Probably because ARPG + complete specific XP approach = Dungeon Siege I (the second game was more like Diablo in the character building system). This approach works nicely with Elder Scrolls, but this series has more complicated mechanics than ARPGs. So since Sacred is ARPG, I think that comparing to Dungeon Siege is more reasonable here. Even though I liked playing Dungeon Siege, I always thought that specific XP approach killed the very meaning and opportunity of character building in this game. Really, it turned out to be just - choose your character's type (warrior, ranger, battle mage or nature mage) from the beginning of the game and forget about character development completely (you can find new gear and try new spells, but switching your main lore isn't a good idea). Switching between different fighting types resulted in quite uneffective characters that could do a bit of everything but were good at nothing.

 

So I don't think that this approach would be fun in Sacred - after all the main interest of this game (and one of the main reasons why people still play it) is trying various character builds. Every character in Sacred can be developed differently and almost all the builds can be played (some are more effective than the others, but almost all can survive). Specific XP approach makes hybrid builds quite uneffective (at least the all-aspect ones), so there would be less builds that really can be survivable and therefore less fun.

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I'm with Silver on this one. Changing to specific xp would be almost as large a change as moving from timers to mana for CAs.

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I'd have to agree with Silver on this one as well. She makes a few good points, but the one that I'm identifying with at the moment is in regards to the builds. It would be a lot less involving if the game decided what skills, or at least decided how your skills progressed, for you...

 

Although yes, the concept itself does have merit. For certain games it can and does work shiny. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depening on your point of view :P ) Sacred isn't the type of game that it would work too well for. Lets say for example they chose to do this in Sacred 2... So what if my character runs around with a sword most of the time, that doesn't mean that I'd take Sword Weapons as a skill, or choose to place many points in there if it was taken, And how would Constitution work? The more you get hit, the more HP you eventually gain? Adding realism, someone who gets hit more would feel weaker, not tougher...

 

Like I said, it's a good concept, I just cant see how it would fit well with Sacred :)

Edited by Smurfed

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I wouldn't mind seeing more than one mastery stage for skills though. Such as a level 30, level 75 and level 150 mastery bonus or something...It would at least make it worthwhile to put extra points into skills past where diminishing returns has really kicked in.

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I wouldn't mind seeing more than one mastery stage for skills though. Such as a level 30, level 75 and level 150 mastery bonus or something...It would at least make it worthwhile to put extra points into skills past where diminishing returns has really kicked in.

 

This I like. It was always a drag getting to that last level 75 with more than 125 levels to go. Surely there must be a way to make it kind of interesting to kind of have it last it out to a little closer to the end.

:)

 

gogo

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I wouldn't mind seeing more than one mastery stage for skills though. Such as a level 30, level 75 and level 150 mastery bonus or something...It would at least make it worthwhile to put extra points into skills past where diminishing returns has really kicked in.

 

This I like. It was always a drag getting to that last level 75 with more than 125 levels to go. Surely there must be a way to make it kind of interesting to kind of have it last it out to a little closer to the end.

:)

 

gogo

 

For that matter, it kinda sucks that you have NOTHING to do in Gold, Platinum and Niobium when it comes to creating your build besides distributing skill points. More often than not, you can hit level 65 and beyond in Silver. Maybe it might be a good thing if there were something beyond that level - maybe make the skill acquisition levels a bit wider spread for the last few skills... And have it so you can do something about redoing skills you took by mistake.

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I wouldn't mind seeing more than one mastery stage for skills though. Such as a level 30, level 75 and level 150 mastery bonus or something...It would at least make it worthwhile to put extra points into skills past where diminishing returns has really kicked in.

 

This I like. It was always a drag getting to that last level 75 with more than 125 levels to go. Surely there must be a way to make it kind of interesting to kind of have it last it out to a little closer to the end.

:)

 

gogo

 

For that matter, it kinda sucks that you have NOTHING to do in Gold, Platinum and Niobium when it comes to creating your build besides distributing skill points. More often than not, you can hit level 65 and beyond in Silver. Maybe it might be a good thing if there were something beyond that level - maybe make the skill acquisition levels a bit wider spread for the last few skills... And have it so you can do something about redoing skills you took by mistake.

Thus the challenge to advance to the next difficulty as soon as possible, sure you can get to level 65 in silver, but why not finish asap and move up to harder but more rewarding difficulties? Or if you are building a toon for a specific reason...level xxx shopper, legendary finder (legendaries spawn without some mods at low difficulties) and so on.

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I'm liking those ideas actually! Multiple masteries per skill, and also being able to reskill your character.

 

In terms of the reskill, perhaps a specific quest you can unlock via unlocking difficulty levels. eg, unlock gold or platinum, and you can unlock a quest for a reskill NPC.

 

Actually, on that strain, perhaps they could add in difficulty level dependent skills.... But that's getting a bit off topic now and more into the "What I Want For S3" realm...

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I'm liking those ideas actually! Multiple masteries per skill, and also being able to reskill your character.

 

In terms of the reskill, perhaps a specific quest you can unlock via unlocking difficulty levels. eg, unlock gold or platinum, and you can unlock a quest for a reskill NPC.

 

Actually, on that strain, perhaps they could add in difficulty level dependent skills.... But that's getting a bit off topic now and more into the "What I Want For S3" realm...

Reskilling or respeccing...its kinda not sacred...I don't think it would feel quite right.

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Granted, but I can't tell you the amount of times I've wished I'd taken X skill instead of Y skill... sigh.gif

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For that matter, it kinda sucks that you have NOTHING to do in Gold, Platinum and Niobium when it comes to creating your build besides distributing skill points. More often than not, you can hit level 65 and beyond in Silver. Maybe it might be a good thing if there were something beyond that level - maybe make the skill acquisition levels a bit wider spread for the last few skills... And have it so you can do something about redoing skills you took by mistake.

Thus the challenge to advance to the next difficulty as soon as possible, sure you can get to level 65 in silver, but why not finish asap and move up to harder but more rewarding difficulties? Or if you are building a toon for a specific reason...level xxx shopper, legendary finder (legendaries spawn without some mods at low difficulties) and so on.

 

My High Elf that I just recently finished - for the achievement for finishing with less than 20% of the map revealed - wound up at level 78... I really didn't go too far out of my way to do a lot of extra questing - just following the gold ring from point A to point B to point C, etc...

 

I think it's a safe bet to say that I didn't dawdle around in Silver.

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Granted, but I can't tell you the amount of times I've wished I'd taken X skill instead of Y skill... sigh.gif

 

Eh.. I'm not so worried about taking skills I regret - I'm more worried about skills I took by accident.

 

I had a Seraphim who got her final skill selection. I put the game on pause and decided to do some research to see which would be a better fit for the build. I forget the exact choices I was deliberating over - at any rate, the mouse pointer wound up hovering over Divine Devotion when I paused the game. I unpaused the game and noticed I was about to be attacked. I moved the mouse pointer to the X at the top of the skill selection window and clicked. Suddenly, I had Divine Devotion. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH! That was, by far, the LAST skill I would have ever picked - EVAR!

 

Fortunately, I did have access to the Sacred 2 Save Game Editor - and was able to correct that glitch. Still... Would have been nice not to have had to resort to any such potentially risky tools to get the problem sorted out.

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Granted, but I can't tell you the amount of times I've wished I'd taken X skill instead of Y skill... sigh.gif

 

Yah. Especially on the first character or two when you are still trying to figure out how to play and what you actually like. It's quite odd that the most important decisions you make in the game come very early and you have no real idea what to expect, thus making your decision completely blind...

 

Certainly people like us have logged 100s of hours and made many characters, but the majority of players are more casual and probably made one or two and played for 10s of hours. Maybe finishing the campaign on one mode or the other, probably not both.

 

I know purists of the RPG hate re-specs (why I don't know) but , if done correctly (cost or some sacrifice) they are nothing but beneficial. I've grown bored with my sword/shield level 68 SW. I'd like to go swing a maul for a bit. Re-spec to allow that = renewed interest. I'm not logging another 50 hours just to build a similar guy with a new weapon.

 

I took Blacksmith/alchemy etc and they don't work?

 

The thing is: This is a product you want to make money off of, a misbuilt 20 hour character certainly doesn't help people enjoy the game to its fullest. When they don;t enjoy, they don't buy sequels and they don't recommend to friends.

 

There is nothing wrong with Re-specs. I;'m not sure why someone would be opposed aside from a "live with your choices" attitude, to which I say:

 

1) it's not real life. We are supposed to enjoy the game not suffer through the experience.

(that goes for real life too... try to enjoy it, don't suffer through it)

 

2) YOU don't have to respec if you don't want to. Why do you care if I do?

 

 

Anyways... sorry for the rant.

 

S3? Re-specs please.

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I wouldn't mind seeing more than one mastery stage for skills though. Such as a level 30, level 75 and level 150 mastery bonus or something...It would at least make it worthwhile to put extra points into skills past where diminishing returns has really kicked in.

 

This I like. It was always a drag getting to that last level 75 with more than 125 levels to go. Surely there must be a way to make it kind of interesting to kind of have it last it out to a little closer to the end.

:)

 

gogo

 

This is more what I was looking at.

True that with the character development going dry if you can't choose with general XP.

My idea is not to eliminate that, cause it'd constrain things too much.

My idea is to expand on what is already there.

 

EX:

 

I have a 75th level toon. I have used multiple 2H swords on the way there, but exclusively (since level three when I found my first one).

The game has kept a tic count of every time I have used a sword in a regular attack.

In the same way the game now gives a plus damage to killing an Orc (easily assumed because you are *familiar* with the enemy and have a better idea on how to defeat them quickly) the vision is to *add* a level of mastery toward using 2H swords.

IMO the logical progression would be a natural deathblow percentage when using 2H swords.

So, after (for example) 50,000 successful blows with a 2H sword type, you receive a *small* deathblow percentage addition.

I switch to a really neat one handed sword I found, the percentage disappears. The mechanics of a one-handed sword are different than a two handed.

 

Same with Combat Arts. If you have used let's say tangled vines 10,000 times, the logical imperative rises 'I now have the experience with its use to cast it more effectively' Deathblow percentage when using it (or crit, or more damage per tic, or better range, whatever).

Does that mean Edaphic Lances should get the same bonus? No. Unless I have used it 10,000 times too.

 

What do you think about this?

 

For that matter, it kinda sucks that you have NOTHING to do in Gold, Platinum and Niobium when it comes to creating your build besides distributing skill points. More often than not, you can hit level 65 and beyond in Silver. Maybe it might be a good thing if there were something beyond that level - maybe make the skill acquisition levels a bit wider spread for the last few skills... And have it so you can do something about redoing skills you took by mistake.

 

Right. After 65, you're built. Then you just augment what you have, and look for better stuff to use.

 

If you push to Niobium quick as you can (like I do with the toons I'm familiar with) you can get the nicer stuff much more quickly, but what if the game noticed how much of a challenge you took on? Like a permanent bonus of some sort? Like an resistance bonus? A Con bonus? A coup de grace bonus?

Or for the boss farmers, which is definitely a higher challenge, after so many bosses down, permanent bonus? Say to vitality, or all stats, or all skills?

It'd be something to work for (other than just bragging rights and better drops)

Edited by JKtheWonderguy

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It sounds like dungeon siege, which while fun is not really sacred. When it came to increasing damage in Sacred 1 and 2 it came down to lots of things, not simply spamming the same ability. CA levels...higher CA for higher damage vs lower CA for faster regen. Max out damage skills first or max out regen skills first or a balance of both. Socket x instead of y or z or whatever else.

 

As to respeccing, I think not having it is what makes sacred fun. Its all well and good to run through the game and not care about making any mistakes, but sacred has always required a little thought about what you are going to do before you do it. Now Im not saying that everyone should follow a build guide, but the person that wrote them up initially most likely had as little idea about how their build was going to plan out as you did. If you feel unsure about a skill choice save before making it and then if it doesnt pan out reload.

 

Edit: And as to a bonus? Thats what Survival Bonus is, it increases all you're stats and MF.

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Great post Luke, a real enjoyable read for me, I took some time to put down some comments I wanted to respond with :)

 

It's quite odd that the most important decisions you make in the game come very early and you have no real idea what to expect, thus making your decision completely blind...

 

 

Yes, the beginning is really tough. This is one of the rare games out there that actually require a good bit of homework if you want to create a competitive build. Fun builds are easy on SP..but if you want to play in HC, preparation is definitely required. This is a discerning difference from the Sacred franchise to others.

 

 

 

but the majority of players are more casual and probably made one or two and played for 10s of hours.

 

This is a new thing. Old demographics for games of this type were comprised mainly of hard core game players. The idea of video games like this existing for casual gaming is new (relatively) with HC gamers now being replace by moms and dads who want to click on for an hour or two then click off. This is a valid gaming experience, but it's not necessarily what the sacred franchise is best at. There are so many games out there that are terrific at casual gaming that have no real investment needed or repercussions. Isn't it just nice to know that with the plethora of games being offered, something that costs so much, like Sacred, exists?

 

I'm not logging another 50 hours just to build a similar guy with a new weapon.

 

But that's the cost ^^ And it's fair of you to say that you don't want to pay that to see how a build expresses itself in a new manner. But this is also what creates value in this game's gaming experience. A very rare balance of sandbox and permanency.

 

I took Blacksmith/alchemy etc and they don't work?

 

 

This sucks. I have always had sympathies for the console gaming experience because of this, and they should have made it more clear when console was released.

The thing is: This is a product you want to make money off of, a misbuilt 20 hour character certainly doesn't help people enjoy the game to its fullest.

 

 

You think? What about the road, and the good time you had building it along your 20 hour adventure. Doesn't that count for something?

 

When they don;t enjoy, they don't buy sequels and they don't recommend to friends.

 

 

Agreed to no recommendations for bad games. But this game is peculiar and rare and very long lasting. This is probably the console game that has had people play lots of other console games then come back to this forum or Wiki saying there was just...something ...about this game that kept them coming back. Maybe it's the lack of respecs, the epic amount of content, the really difficult game mechanics... Sacred 2 has lasting power and that's definitely something to recommend.

 

2) YOU don't have to respec if you don't want to. Why do you care if I do?

 

 

Cuz there's something about a real shared experience that's wonderful. This is why mmorpg games are closed...because when everyone discusses or someone has taken a hit everyone is convinced that everyone else is close to feeling how they feel. And while Sacred 2 isn't an mmorpg, it's probably the standup game that has come closet to being able to emulate that shared experience of real pain and loss when characters are lost or with the realization of a badly built build.

 

With all that being said...I think the demand is too strong for the Sacred franchise to retain it's no respec strategy, and that because

 

  • players have changed
  • players want more casual
  • players want to multiplay with other games while playing Sacred and not have to focus their entire core and being upon the perfection of that great build.

Gamers have changed, and so the old ways of this franchise may have to change with it, I'm thinking respec is probably going to be a part of the new Sacred 3, I'm just curious as to how they will balance the classical values of Sacred's build permanency with the repercussions of choices versus the contemporary need for fast build creation/consumption.

 

I see the Sacred Franchise as the end of a dying breed, and it would be sad to have our gaming choices diminished in this way.

 

:)

 

gogo

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Gogo that nearly brought a tear to my eye. I'm so disillusioned these days by games that play to the masses. MMO's are a good example, but you can see it in every genre now. There is no risk and reward and complexity is replaced by simplicity; It's a shame, and I expect you're right, that sacred 3 will fall into the deeply beaten path, rather than wander solely off into the sunset with a handful of lone rangers.

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I just wanted to add my humble opinion to the discussion about what kind of game Sacred is and what people play it. Personally, I rarely have a lot of time to play games, when I have a lot of tasks at work I come home late and don't have time to spend next to my PC. From the first sight it may seem that I won't enjoy playing insanely long games that require spending hunreds of hours to make a good character build. Yet still, I play Sacred and like it more than other ARPGs I played (and I played lots of them). I like this game the way it is, with all the need to restart if you did something wrong, and with all the need to spend a lot of hours on each character. I think that inability to change your build drastically is exactly what gives an opportunity to try different builds and characters. And I always play hardcore even in the singleplayer. This game is a challenge, and that's one of the things what make it interesting. You could say that people don't want (or can't) spend hunreds of hours building a character - and I'd answer that there are people who do want it (or at least don't mind it).

 

There are some features that make Sacred stand out, like big world, lots of quests and lots of items - and difficult character building is one of them. But the size of this community shows that all these features have their fans. As for the people who prefer more easy play style - they can play any other ARPG (there are plenty of them after all). Maybe it sounds a bit harsh, but there really is a lot of easy ARPGs and only very few tough ones.

 

Maintaining the franchise means maintaning its identifying features, keeping the things that make it stand out. Sacred is far from being perfect, but we need to understand what makes the game Sacred and not think of changing it.

 

P.S. the only ARPG where the respec option worked nice and wasn't a fun-breaker was Titan Quest. But they made this function quite limited - you could not respec your character's attributes nor 'skill' level, only CAs.

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TQ also had an undo button on stat & skill point distribution (if you don't exit that screen first), which would let you see what effect your points have without making it binding. IMO, that would be a good balance between being able to undo a mistake (accidentally selecting Divine Devotion at level 65 *shudder*) & having to live with the consequences of your choices.

 

Mind you, so would a sandbox mode that allows you to test a particular build/CA mod choice (I would envisage it as allowing you to select your character level, skills & so on, but not being able to save said character & giving you some monsters to test things out on). Or the ability to export your character & test a skill choice in SP.

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TQ also had an undo button on stat & skill point distribution (if you don't exit that screen first), which would let you see what effect your points have without making it binding. IMO, that would be a good balance between being able to undo a mistake (accidentally selecting Divine Devotion at level 65 *shudder*) & having to live with the consequences of your choices.

 

Mind you, so would a sandbox mode that allows you to test a particular build/CA mod choice (I would envisage it as allowing you to select your character level, skills & so on, but not being able to save said character & giving you some monsters to test things out on). Or the ability to export your character & test a skill choice in SP.

I like the idea of an undo before final confirmation type button. Would definitely prevent the accidental skill choices and would give you some idea of what to expect.

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Great post Luke, a real enjoyable read for me, I took some time to put down some comments I wanted to respond with :) ...

 

...Cuz there's something about a real shared experience that's wonderful. This is why mmorpg games are closed...because when everyone discusses or someone has taken a hit everyone is convinced that everyone else is close to feeling how they feel. And while Sacred 2 isn't an mmorpg, it's probably the standup game that has come closet to being able to emulate that shared experience of real pain and loss when characters are lost or with the realization of a badly built build.

 

With all that being said...I think the demand is too strong for the Sacred franchise to retain it's no respec strategy, and that because

 

  • players have changed
  • players want more casual
  • players want to multiplay with other games while playing Sacred and not have to focus their entire core and being upon the perfection of that great build.

Gamers have changed, and so the old ways of this franchise may have to change with it, I'm thinking respec is probably going to be a part of the new Sacred 3, I'm just curious as to how they will balance the classical values of Sacred's build permanency with the repercussions of choices versus the contemporary need for fast build creation/consumption.

 

I see the Sacred Franchise as the end of a dying breed, and it would be sad to have our gaming choices diminished in this way.

 

:)

 

gogo

 

That was just flat well said gogo.

Cheers to you :drunkards:

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TQ also had an undo button on stat & skill point distribution (if you don't exit that screen first), which would let you see what effect your points have without making it binding. IMO, that would be a good balance between being able to undo a mistake (accidentally selecting Divine Devotion at level 65 *shudder*) & having to live with the consequences of your choices.

 

Mind you, so would a sandbox mode that allows you to test a particular build/CA mod choice (I would envisage it as allowing you to select your character level, skills & so on, but not being able to save said character & giving you some monsters to test things out on). Or the ability to export your character & test a skill choice in SP.

I like the idea of an undo before final confirmation type button. Would definitely prevent the accidental skill choices and would give you some idea of what to expect.

 

I'm with that. I am ultra super dooper careful when picking a skill now, due to clicking a lil faster than was prudent in the past :Just_Cuz_21:

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