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JKtheWonderguy

Different look for masteries in Sacred 3

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TQ also had an undo button on stat & skill point distribution (if you don't exit that screen first), which would let you see what effect your points have without making it binding. IMO, that would be a good balance between being able to undo a mistake (accidentally selecting Divine Devotion at level 65 *shudder*) & having to live with the consequences of your choices.

 

Mind you, so would a sandbox mode that allows you to test a particular build/CA mod choice (I would envisage it as allowing you to select your character level, skills & so on, but not being able to save said character & giving you some monsters to test things out on). Or the ability to export your character & test a skill choice in SP.

 

Yes! Yes! And Yes!

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Yes, the undo button that is present only before you close the skill distribution panel is a good thing to have. It's more of a comfortable interface that of a game mechanics in my opinion (just a thing that would save you from being worried about pressing the right skill button). I was thinking more of a point redistribution somewhere inbetween levels, when you can reskill your character almost completely - this thing is a part of a game mechanics, and not a good one.

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There are many ways of doing it on, either you get new skills at certain lvls (class depending ofc).

Or you choose some basic skills wich you level up and get better at the more you use them (miss chance, skill dmg, crit chance/multiplier ect.)

Sword/axe/spear ect. lore that makes you better at using certain weapons, or similar system for spells.

That can be backed up by stat points, like constitution, and so on.

So you use stat points depending on if you wanna be ranged, melee, caster, or hybrid.

But I liked both S1 and Sacred 2 way of doing it, so ill keep an open mind.

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There are many ways of doing it on, either you get new skills at certain lvls (class depending ofc).

Or you choose some basic skills wich you level up and get better at the more you use them (miss chance, skill dmg, crit chance/multiplier ect.)

Sword/axe/spear ect. lore that makes you better at using certain weapons, or similar system for spells.

That can be backed up by stat points, like constitution, and so on.

So you use stat points depending on if you wanna be ranged, melee, caster, or hybrid.

But I liked both S1 and Sacred 2 way of doing it, so ill keep an open mind.

*Shrug*

I like both ways of doing it.

I think specific XP is worth a look.

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I played Elder Scrolls IV and this is the worst XP system that I ever seen. First of all, it encourages annoying behaviors, as allways going running and jumping to boost those skills. Second, this system looks designed to do the opposed of your character type, ie: if you will play as a warrior (blade + block + armor, etc), you need to create a magician, to boost slowly your level, and that the creatures comes in low level. Third of all, this system suks in all different ways, since you are constantly watching over to not exceed certain skills.

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Valkyr, I think that some of the problems you describe (if you will play as a warrior (blade + block + armor, etc), you need to create a magician, to boost slowly your level, and that the creatures comes in low level) was due to Oblivion's auto-levelling monsters to your level.

 

If you wanted to implement a scheme where CAs/etc were levelled by use, you'd have to make sure that they're all useful/effective at all levels & that they all gained XP at a comparable rate. As an example, if a particular skill were good at high levels but not particularly good at low levels then you'd have to grind through the low levels with it in order to get to the higher levels. In Sacred's current system, you could just not use that particular CA until it was at a level where it was effective.

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On 'using skills to improve their level', it worked for Secret of Mana for the SNES. Spells and weapons could be 'leveled up'. It would also look if the graphics/effect improve as the CA is leveled up - for example, a High Elf's fireball will start out simple like in Sacred 2. By leveling up the fireball, various affects can be added through specific trees-

Choosing between a multi-fireball at once route or one large fireball makes a single target wish it never existed.

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Multiple masteries for a skill? Yes please.

A respec system? Sure, but put a limit on it, like unlimited until level 25 and then only 2 more after that.

I think being able to undo skills before you leave the menu is a great system that all games should have, but why not be able to put in skills, and have a preview of your stat page that way you can see what direct changes it will have before leaving the menu and setting it in stone?

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Valkyr, I think that some of the problems you describe (if you will play as a warrior (blade + block + armor, etc), you need to create a magician, to boost slowly your level, and that the creatures comes in low level) was due to Oblivion's auto-levelling monsters to your level.

 

If you wanted to implement a scheme where CAs/etc were levelled by use, you'd have to make sure that they're all useful/effective at all levels & that they all gained XP at a comparable rate. As an example, if a particular skill were good at high levels but not particularly good at low levels then you'd have to grind through the low levels with it in order to get to the higher levels. In Sacred's current system, you could just not use that particular CA until it was at a level where it was effective.

 

Dungen Siege II has the same system "the more you do; the more you have", and it encourages bad behabiours also. IE: If you want to be an expert with sword, you won't want to use occasionally bows or spells, never.

 

I was reading about the new Diablo III runic system, and you wil be able to respec every time you wish, this encourages you to constantly experiment new builds, without necessity of keeping points.

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There is nothing wrong with Re-specs. I;'m not sure why someone would be opposed aside from a "live with your choices" attitude, to which I say:

 

While I agree on a personal level, from a business standpoint, the answer is simple: money. Forcing you to rebuild your character forces you to spend more time playing the game, and thus increases the lifespan of the game. Then they just hope the game is good enough that you will tolerate this.. and it is.

 

I never truly understood this logic, as it drives away casual gamers who don't want to be so harshly punished for making mistakes. It might have made sense when Sacred 2 was first released, as the market for the game was mostly hardcore gamers as gogo put it, but the market for games in general has certainly shifted to the far, far larger casual player market.

 

Expect Sacred 3 to be easier than Sacred 2. Some of this will be in part to a much, much better UI and game mechanics, but much of it will be due to the game being targeted for a broader audience of less patient gamers who want to press buttons for an hour or two, then go party with their friends. I personally don't think Sacred 3 will be as good as Sacred 2. Much of my enjoyment from Sacred 2 has been because of the difficulty of the game and how rewarding it feels to defeat it. It is not a particularly easy nor forgiving game, and it mostly survives on good but not great game mechanics, exceptionally diverse character customization options and a metric ****ton of content. Games being hard are no longer acceptable for publishers, and having too many options and too much content will also drive away casual gamers, in the publishers' eyes. Not too many people spend more than 10-20 hours total on a game anymore, so expect somewhere around that much content, and probably less customization options for characters to make the game less intimidating for casuals.

 

This is mostly speculation, of course. I hope for the best with Sacred 3, but I'm not expecting much more than a watered down Sacred 2, unfortunately. The publisher will rule the day. All they care about is money at the end of the day.

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Valkyr, I think that some of the problems you describe (if you will play as a warrior (blade + block + armor, etc), you need to create a magician, to boost slowly your level, and that the creatures comes in low level) was due to Oblivion's auto-levelling monsters to your level.

 

If you wanted to implement a scheme where CAs/etc were levelled by use, you'd have to make sure that they're all useful/effective at all levels & that they all gained XP at a comparable rate. As an example, if a particular skill were good at high levels but not particularly good at low levels then you'd have to grind through the low levels with it in order to get to the higher levels. In Sacred's current system, you could just not use that particular CA until it was at a level where it was effective.

 

Dungen Siege II has the same system "the more you do; the more you have", and it encourages bad behabiours also. IE: If you want to be an expert with sword, you won't want to use occasionally bows or spells, never.

 

I was reading about the new Diablo III runic system, and you wil be able to respec every time you wish, this encourages you to constantly experiment new builds, without necessity of keeping points.

 

I dunno fellas. I guess I see it as a diff thing.

I don't mean the Elder Scroll 'jump as you run until you get dizzy down a mountain so your acrobatic skill gets to 100' stuff. Not only is it annoying, it really isn't tied to normal playing.

 

I mean stuff like killing 100,000 kobolds gives you a bonus. Like Master of the 2h sword, with new skills unlocked with 500,000 kills w 2h sword, where you get a special additional skill choice. Like so many kills with a dual wield character gives you a 'god spell' of a spin move. Like traveling 1000 miles on a mount adds a stun move at the end of a combo attack.

 

That isn't 'bad behavior stuff' That's just stuff you're gonna do anyway in abundance. Treat it as an 'unlockable' skill associated with normal behavior.

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I mean stuff like killing 100,000 kobolds gives you a bonus. Like Master of the 2h sword, with new skills unlocked with 500,000 kills w 2h sword, where you get a special additional skill choice. Like so many kills with a dual wield character gives you a 'god spell' of a spin move. Like traveling 1000 miles on a mount adds a stun move at the end of a combo attack.

 

That isn't 'bad behavior stuff' That's just stuff you're gonna do anyway in abundance. Treat it as an 'unlockable' skill associated with normal behavior.

Which is exactly how Elder Scrolls does it. It drives "bad" behaviour in Elder Scrolls (the jumping till you're dizzy as you mention) & it would do the same in Sacred as well...

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I mean stuff like killing 100,000 kobolds gives you a bonus. Like Master of the 2h sword, with new skills unlocked with 500,000 kills w 2h sword, where you get a special additional skill choice. Like so many kills with a dual wield character gives you a 'god spell' of a spin move. Like traveling 1000 miles on a mount adds a stun move at the end of a combo attack.

 

That isn't 'bad behavior stuff' That's just stuff you're gonna do anyway in abundance. Treat it as an 'unlockable' skill associated with normal behavior.

Which is exactly how Elder Scrolls does it. It drives "bad" behaviour in Elder Scrolls (the jumping till you're dizzy as you mention) & it would do the same in Sacred as well...

 

Disagree bro.

 

For Elder Scrolls IV (Oblivion), it's the only way to level, so when I played it through second time, got a room at the inn, and played for 48 hours, summoning, whacking, casting, sleeping, rinse repeat.

Afterward, nothing had been done in the game, but I had already maxed all fighting/casting skills. Like 400 skill advances, by fighting in a hotel room

Then I went jumping and joking to max those out. Played at level 38 without sleeping the rest of the way.

 

Bad behavior.

..

The kind of specific leveling I'm talking about can only start popping around level 80 or 90 through normal play. That's the difference.

Sure, you could farm 100,000 kobolds, but it'd take two or three days game time, just to get one bonus. Not worth it to work on it specifically too much.

Edited by JKtheWonderguy

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For Elder Scrolls IV (Oblivion), it's the only way to level, so when I played it through second time, got a room at the inn, and played for 48 hours, summoning, whacking, casting, sleeping, rinse repeat.

Afterward, nothing had been done in the game, but I had already maxed all fighting/casting skills. Like 400 skill advances, by fighting in a hotel room

Then I went jumping and joking to max those out. Played at level 38 without sleeping the rest of the way.

 

Bad behavior.

Yup & Morrowind (the other Elder Scrolls game I've played) was the same, no idea about Skyrim as I've not played it.

 

From the sound of it what you're describing is only different in degree (ie, taking several days of in-game time for one thing) rather than in concept. You're proposing an Elder Scrolls levelling system but making it a lot slower to try & remove the likelyhood that it encourages bad behaviour.

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Skyrim is a little more tree than vector oriented in level up, as my son has it and showed it to me.

 

Yes and no.

 

Leaving the leveling system the way it is, and adding the additional bonus for epic behavior. That's it.

 

I don't like the idea of it being the only way you level up at all. I love Elder Scrolls stuff, and have played it for over fifteen years, but the level up system has always bugged me. The way you level up isn't necessarily what the game designers envisioned I don't think. I believe they're trying to tweak it to make it less annoying, but IV was worse than III, IMO.

 

Dungeon Siege, cause of the linear play was *okay* leveling up, but I didn't even try Dungeon Siege II because I didn't necessarily like it that much.

 

The level up for Sacred series is my favorite level up system, along with the Sigma tool tip stuff.

 

I would like to see more stats though in the quest log though, like how many orcs defeated, how many bosses, how many times gold difficulty has been defeated by character, how many global deaths happened, et cetera, but the way it is now is the closest to perfect that I can think of.

 

I understand 'ain't broke, don't fix it' and corrupting the leveling system with *having to jump six hundred thousand times means you can walk a lil faster*.

I agree with both statements.

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I think it is pretty good as is. The only thing they should really add is the ubiquitous Windows "Are you sure?" confirmation popup

 

As for Oblivion, I personally cannot think of anything from "that" game I want to see in S3.

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I think it is pretty good as is. The only thing they should really add is the ubiquitous Windows "Are you sure?" confirmation popup

 

As for Oblivion, I personally cannot think of anything from "that" game I want to see in S3.

 

:)

 

I like the gameplay in all the Elder Scroll games, but the leveling gets pretty tedious for sure.

 

*Shrug* I made my case best I could, and it was critiqued by others. Sound criticism for sure, but I still maintain it could work if it was an addition for epic behavior and the current system stayed intact.

 

I'd really like to see the Sigma tool math shown. It'd help knowing how to maximize a character.

It'd help if it was more accurate as well...

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