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#1 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 11:36 AM

I've been thinking about a dual axe build real hard the last coupla days.

It's not that I haven't built a shadow warrior before :), it's that I can't seem to pull the trigger on it.
It's the old 'I'd liketa put eleven choices into ten slots' dilemna.

Maybe if I air it out here it'd get more solidified

Reason is I picked up a Kal Dur's Legacy, and I wanted to have a build that would take the best advantage of it.
I've built dual wield swords before with using the swords unlocked, like my current SW hardcore toon, but never with axes.

I thought about using axe and shield (which no builds are posted on) but if axes are used in dual two weapon augmentation it would be more powerful than just one (meaning one axe adds two to four attack/damage/status skills and two axes four to eight)

Lemme air out my thinking and see what y'all think.

Preliminary priorities in order of importance:

High survivability (hardcore toons need that)
All melee
Dual
More focused toward Many Hits than Hard Hits
Speed over Power
Natural Protection over CA protection

Necessary Skill Choices:

Offensive:
Dual Wield
Axes
Tactics

Defensive:
Armor
Constitution

That leaves five left to decide.
Problems that need solutions:

  • Spell Resistance is absolutely necessary, as every time I have died it has been to a spell. I've never been punched/hit/clawed/scratched/cut-to-death
  • Reflective Emanation is a fantastic buff, yet the progression of increase is small for the investment required
  • Grim Resilience is also a fantastic buff, yet the progression for hit point generation also peaks out quickly if plus all skills are plugged into a build. At a certain point five points of DW focus are needed to increase the buff one CA level
  • Since Tactics are already included as part of both DW and MC focus, they will augment the Combat Arts with no focus chosen already, so is not absolutely necessary to add either
  • If neither focus is chosen, the amount of increase of CA level is absolute, meaning character level and natural attributes determine level of CA, and plus all skills will not affect
  • If Combat Reflexes is chosen, it is possible to also chose the Gold Mod for physical damage mitigation, which is a valuable augmentation to safeguard against close combat survivability
  • Combat Discipline is great for damage, adds a third/fourth CA option in a combo, and allows less time to be attacked (cause you kill whoever is hitting you)
That leaves seven skills left to choose from that I feel would offer the most utility:

  • DW focus
  • MC focus
  • Concentration (if two buffs are chosen)
  • Toughness
  • Spell Resistance
  • Combat Reflexes
  • Combat Discipline
Although there are others that could help (Damage Lore and Speed Lore) they do not add enough utility to DPS (Damage Per Second) kill speed I'm looking for
Alchemy could be cool, but it uses two slots to unlock, and the utility gained would need another spent slot on something else

My best reasoning to date is the following:

  • DW focus
  • Concentration
  • Combat Discipline
  • Combat Reflexes
  • Spell Resistance
Attributes augmented --
Stamina first
Vitality second

Thoughts, comments, perspectives needed

Thank you for your time and consideration

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#2 DaveO

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 09:51 PM

I usually look to solid builds like Furian's Ultimate Warrior for melee Shadow Warriors.

Let's look at the skills you'll likely need:

Tactics Lore
Dual Wield
Hafted Weapons - This may not be needed since I don't think anything extra is unlocked by this skill(only attack rating and dual hit which may be negated by Dual Wield). I'm not sure if Hafted and Dual Wield even stack.
Armor Lore
Death Warrior Focus
Concentration
Malevolent Champion Focus
Combat Reflexes
Spell Resistance

I'd personally toss out Hafted Weapons UNLESS attack rating is very important to you(although I've seen plenty of rings adding percentage bonuses to attack rating). If you're looking for pure damage, then Combat Discipline and Damage Lore from Furian's build is the way to go. If you want to try to find another Kal Dur weapon, then Blacksmith and Enhanced Perception would work better.
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#3 lujate

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Posted 10 January 2012 - 10:47 PM

DW does not stack with Sword or Hafted. Its sole purpose would be to unlock modifiers on weapons
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#4 essjayehm

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:00 AM

Playing closed Harcdore, JK? Kinda gimps your build somewhat as you do have to take Spell Resistance and Constitution if you want to guarantee survival of the bugged Demons in the waseland (Niob difficulty).

I think your reasoning for going dual-wield on axes is flawed (just IMO). Pumping offence isn't needed if you are planning around a LL% item. In fact, you only need to hit (ie no damage addition) for it to work just fine. In that case, the defensive mods on shields are better than the offensive ones from a second axe.

But, basing your build around the Kal'dur's Legacy seems poor if you only have one... I suppose you could "summon" a Tom Felde's for the DW, but then again, you only have one set.

The only other suggestion I would have is to take shield Lore... you can find them with scaleable block chance: combat arts, IIRC to help with buggy demons (but not guaranteed)... Then you could free up 3 choices (SR, Const. are covered by Grim Resilience) and Dual-Wield.
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#5 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:22 AM

Playing closed Harcdore, JK? Kinda gimps your build somewhat as you do have to take Spell Resistance and Constitution if you want to guarantee survival of the bugged Demons in the waseland (Niob difficulty).

I think your reasoning for going dual-wield on axes is flawed (just IMO). Pumping offence isn't needed if you are planning around a LL% item. In fact, you only need to hit (ie no damage addition) for it to work just fine. In that case, the defensive mods on shields are better than the offensive ones from a second axe.

But, basing your build around the Kal'dur's Legacy seems poor if you only have one... I suppose you could "summon" a Tom Felde's for the DW, but then again, you only have one set.

The only other suggestion I would have is to take shield Lore... you can find them with scaleable block chance: combat arts, IIRC to help with buggy demons (but not guaranteed)... Then you could free up 3 choices (SR, Const. are covered by Grim Resilience) and Dual-Wield.


All true big dog.
It definitely unlocks modifiers. It's the whole reason you chose a weapon lore with dual, to take advantage of the modifiers.
It's been done a hundred times with swords. I've never seen it done with axes.

Absolutely. To Hit around leech percent is all you really need, but I want more.

Hafted Weapons

Kal Dur's doesn't have these mods, but other ones do.
On the off chance I find another axe like that sure, it'll be neat, won't need it.
It is more likely I will have one and another with these mods you see above. Stun is something I wanna see in action, along with slow.

You're probably right with the 'safer' route for sure, I considered it.
Speed leeching is a scary build bro: that's what I'm looking for

I just wanna do something that hasn't been done is all.
If I copy someone else's build, it really isn't a challenge for me. They already did it.
If I do what hasn't been done, and it works, I'm a pioneer.

I've already done it with leech claws, and unlocked swords first, then hafted (although I haven't finished Niob with the axe one)

They are scary to watch bro.

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#6 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:49 AM

I usually look to solid builds like Furian's Ultimate Warrior for melee Shadow Warriors.

Let's look at the skills you'll likely need:

Tactics Lore
Dual Wield
Hafted Weapons - This may not be needed since I don't think anything extra is unlocked by this skill(only attack rating and dual hit which may be negated by Dual Wield). I'm not sure if Hafted and Dual Wield even stack.
Armor Lore
Death Warrior Focus
Concentration
Malevolent Champion Focus
Combat Reflexes
Spell Resistance

I'd personally toss out Hafted Weapons UNLESS attack rating is very important to you(although I've seen plenty of rings adding percentage bonuses to attack rating). If you're looking for pure damage, then Combat Discipline and Damage Lore from Furian's build is the way to go. If you want to try to find another Kal Dur weapon, then Blacksmith and Enhanced Perception would work better.


I agree with you on the skill choice part.
See the above response for my answer for the unlock.
Antitrust has a real good thread on dual wielding and choosing a weapon lore. I hadn't considered it at all until Queen of Blades.
The higher the weapon lore, the uglier the mods.

I've built a few that are similar, one rolling through gold at the moment at 45.
My first seven choices are identical, however I've added Combat Discipline as the eighth.

Still debating the last two. That's part of why I asked others their opinion, to consider experience of other players with their bulids, for this one and the axe build

GR is built for evade, and with gear I'll roll up to around 60 evade by Niob, on top of the RE. I think it'll be enough

I've build a two handed axer with Smith and EP in SP. Looking specifically for 2h Leech Axes and Kanka's pieces.
Found five Kanka's so far. Before this MP distraction thing :butcher:

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#7 essjayehm

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 12:53 AM

All true big dog.
It definitely unlocks modifiers. It's the whole reason you chose a weapon lore with dual, to take advantage of the modifiers.
It's been done a hundred times with swords. I've never seen it done with axes.



IMHO, the hafted modifiers are definitley not worth a skill choice. Swords I see the point but only for the consoles with the stacking deep wounds (bug).. but that's me. The only reason it's been done 100 times with swords, honestly, is because of Boneslicer.


Speed leeching is a scary build bro: that's what I'm looking for


I just wanna do something that hasn't been done is all.
If I copy someone else's build, it really isn't a challenge for me. They already did it.
If I do what hasn't been done, and it works, I'm a pioneer.

I've already done it with leech claws, and unlocked swords first, then hafted (although I haven't finished Niob with the axe one)

They are scary to watch bro.

:Just_Cuz_21:
Sorry I just didn't understand what you were getting at/asking here, as any form of LL% build really has been done... except for Throwing Potions ;)
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#8 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 01:05 AM

IMHO, the hafted modifiers are definitley not worth a skill choice. Swords I see the point but only for the consoles with the stacking deep wounds (bug).. but that's me. The only reason it's been done 100 times with swords, honestly, is because of Boneslicer.


Yeah, they work on PC pretty well too. Never seen a console game, but without the bug they still kill really fast :cow_white:

:Just_Cuz_21:
Sorry I just didn't understand what you were getting at/asking here, as any form of LL% build really has been done... except for Throwing Potions ;)


Oh, never saw a post on claws other'n mine. Cool.

LL % is just a bonus I'll get when I can wield one 100 level axe bro. Gotta keep him not dead and roll up 100 thousand casualties in the most efficient way possible :sweating:

I started a potion with a TG, but since I got a hundred builds, haven't got him past Gold yet.
The pots fire off really fast, and the mods on em are usually heavy on non physical, so Damage Lore on top is definitely a part of it....
But too many builds, too little time.
.

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#9 DaveO

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:11 AM

Ok, since you really want Hafted Weapons as a skill I'd drop Malevolent Champion Focus since Tactics Lore does modify it as well.

So you'd probably want the build to have Expert Touch since you'll use mostly Death Warrior CAs.

With one focus out, you now can focus on damage per second so the skill options I see are:
Tactics Lore
Dual Wield
Hafted Weapons
Armor Lore
Death Warrior Focus
Concentration
Combat Reflexes
Spell Resistance
Constitution
Combat Discipline
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#10 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:05 PM

Ok, since you really want Hafted Weapons as a skill I'd drop Malevolent Champion Focus since Tactics Lore does modify it as well.

So you'd probably want the build to have Expert Touch since you'll use mostly Death Warrior CAs.

With one focus out, you now can focus on damage per second so the skill options I see are:
Tactics Lore
Dual Wield
Hafted Weapons
Armor Lore
Death Warrior Focus
Concentration
Combat Reflexes
Spell Resistance
Constitution
Combat Discipline


Well said. This is prolly what I'll go with.
I'll miss toughness, but if I chose tough, I'd miss combat reflexes :)

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#11 DaveO

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:44 PM

Order of skill selection is very important, so I'd go along the following route:

2. Tactics Lore
3. Armor Lore
5. Death Warrior Focus(you definitely need Grim Resilience for the hitpoint regeneration before the next skill)
8. Dual Wield
12. Concentration
18. Hafted Weapons
25. Combat Reflexes(to avoid taking hits which would help the next skill)
35. Constitution
50. Combat Discipline(you want definite damage and not a chance to cause damage from Damage Lore)
65. Spell Resistance

You may want to make Constitution your first skill to master since it would provide in-combat health regeneration. You also mentioned spells being a nemesis, so I'd make Spell Resistance the second mastery.

Edited by DaveO, 11 January 2012 - 03:51 PM.

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#12 Dragon Brother

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 08:05 PM

Well, just my two cents.

Firstly, I'll throw my lot in with the others in regards to taking hafted lore solely for the modifiers. They are all useless really, and the the two you mentioned specifically aren't worth it either. Chance to stun is only on two handers, and chance to slow can be gotten by simply using an ice weapon.

In regards to the other skills, firstly, this is a build using weapon based Combat Arts and so therefore combat discipline is only useful for increasing combo size (and the subsequent regen bonus). Secondly, combat reflexes is much less useful than having the ability to have a maxed level grim resilience and reflective emanation so I would swap it out for malevolent focus. Grim resil. can be modded for evade and RE reflects everything with the right mod choices, for a melee SW, combat reflexes is a waste of a skill.

Of course, if you didn't take hafted and combat discipline you could fit in toughness and then still fit one of those in since there isn't much else to choose. Alternatively BS + EP could be a choice.

#13 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:23 AM

Well, just my two cents.

Firstly, I'll throw my lot in with the others in regards to taking hafted lore solely for the modifiers. They are all useless really, and the the two you mentioned specifically aren't worth it either. Chance to stun is only on two handers, and chance to slow can be gotten by simply using an ice weapon.


What's up bro? Haven't talked at you forever.

According to the wiki, for the unlockers, 1st at level one, 2nd at level 25, 3rd at mastery --
  • axes go attack, open wounds, deep wounds
  • clubs go attack speed, fire against undead, stun
  • hammers go opponents armor, stun, slow
True with the ice weapon for sure

You don't feel these are worth it at all then?


In regards to the other skills, firstly, this is a build using weapon based Combat Arts and so therefore combat discipline is only useful for increasing combo size (and the subsequent regen bonus). Secondly, combat reflexes is much less useful than having the ability to have a maxed level grim resilience and reflective emanation so I would swap it out for malevolent focus. Grim resil. can be modded for evade and RE reflects everything with the right mod choices, for a melee SW, combat reflexes is a waste of a skill.


The way I usually do SW is this way. I don't run reflexes but run toughness.
You feel this is the preferred way?

Of course, if you didn't take hafted and combat discipline you could fit in toughness and then still fit one of those in since there isn't much else to choose. Alternatively BS + EP could be a choice.


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#14 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:32 AM

Order of skill selection is very important, so I'd go along the following route:

2. Tactics Lore
3. Armor Lore
5. Death Warrior Focus(you definitely need Grim Resilience for the hitpoint regeneration before the next skill)
8. Dual Wield
12. Concentration
18. Hafted Weapons
25. Combat Reflexes(to avoid taking hits which would help the next skill)
35. Constitution
50. Combat Discipline(you want definite damage and not a chance to cause damage from Damage Lore)
65. Spell Resistance

You may want to make Constitution your first skill to master since it would provide in-combat health regeneration. You also mentioned spells being a nemesis, so I'd make Spell Resistance the second mastery.


For Hardcore, you may be right here. With a GR toon, with the HP regen so strong, I usually put it off for fourth, sometimes even fifth if I'm not pushing the toon real hard.
I however am also a big fan of speed. Hitting faster for a dual wielder for me means more hits, more chance to cause secondary effects, more chance to cause simultaneous effects.
With a coupla rings or the right weapons, I know you can get it to a pretty close to max by the time you hit around 60 or so without a whole lotta problems, however with my philosophy if you have it naturally already, skill rings, ammys and modifiers can be put to other uses (higher plus all skills, etc)

How do you feel about punching the dual wield to among the first three mastered?

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#15 DaveO

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:59 AM

Remember, you are pushing two skills that complement each other(Dual Wield and Hafted Weapons). From my experience with two handed weapons, attack speed starts getting manageable around 15 points. You could keep one or the other skill maxed to your current level and the other skill to half your current level and still master another skill by level 75. You could also have Tactics Lore up to 80% of your level. With Dual Wield or Hafted Weapons maxed and Tactics Lore up to 80% of level, you will be doing a lot of damage per second. As far as choosing Combat Reflexes and Grim Resilience goes, there are enemies that can debuff so I'd rather have extra security. I'm also picking Spell Resistance for the bugged life leech attacks.

You did mention speed being quite important, so I don't see a problem with mastering Dual Wield first. I'd then master Spell Resistance second and Constitution as third(or you could reverse this since I'm not sure when spells start getting nasty).

Edited by DaveO, 12 January 2012 - 12:09 PM.

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#16 Dragon Brother

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:02 PM

Re the hafted unlocks I think that yes, they are pretty pointless. If you build the SW well you'll kill monsters before the modifiers play any major part. But if you do want a couple of them, like I said, swap out combat discipline (one regen per hit ring of even 0.1s + frenzied rampage is already better than combat discipline).

Re toughness over reflexes I think it makes more sense. Sure, some monsters debuff, but not anywhere that you are gonna get hit with a bugged lifeleech CA. Also, not many monsters debuff at all and really, the few area's that have it probably aren't where you would be leveling anyway.

#17 lujate

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:31 PM

FYI-
List of Enemies that Debuff in Sacred 2
"Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it." -Gandhi

#18 JKtheWonderguy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 01:04 AM

Re the hafted unlocks I think that yes, they are pretty pointless. If you build the SW well you'll kill monsters before the modifiers play any major part. But if you do want a couple of them, like I said, swap out combat discipline (one regen per hit ring of even 0.1s + frenzied rampage is already better than combat discipline).

Re toughness over reflexes I think it makes more sense. Sure, some monsters debuff, but not anywhere that you are gonna get hit with a bugged lifeleech CA. Also, not many monsters debuff at all and really, the few area's that have it probably aren't where you would be leveling anyway.


I was going for the CA damage for the CD. If you hit ten times, you're gonna get quite a bit o regen per hit, so I reasoned for the damage increase it was worth it.
Yet of course, the FR damage increase with CD is not very much at all really unless the FR is really high. Which would of course need MC focus to get up there. Does wonders with Scything Sweep to the mods with the rage gold pick though.
Wounds and stun seem to help with swords in a strong sweep, specially in a niobium crowd, at least w my experience.
Maybe it is a lil overkill, I dunno.

Tough helps with all attacks, it's why I hate to leave it out.

You is right about debuff guys.
I usually don't go where they is.

I've killed the Abashai exactly once, just to prove I could do it, and don't want anything more to do with him :)

But I'll beat the Sinister Prince up all the time, cause as long as you're careful, he and his buds are too slow to pin you debuffe, and his physical attacks are weaker than his minions

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#19 Dragon Brother

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:21 PM

FYI-
List of Enemies that Debuff in Sacred 2

I was looking for that! Cheers lujate :) Is that list on the wiki anywhere? Could be a useful tidbit to put in.

@JK Yeah, all valid points. I guess it will just come down to personal preference, handy that you can build it in different ways to suit your preferences without sacrificing anything.

#20 lujate

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:41 PM

Looks like the wiki listing fell through the cracks last time. :blush:
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