Jump to content

Sacred 2 Enhanced Edition


Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

Casting speed affects spell-based CA's. Whether a CA is spell-based is controlled by the "causesSpellDamage" flag. The rest are affected by the weapon attack speed. 

Which file do I have to check ? spells.txt ?

5 hours ago, Flix said:

I'll have to look into it. I never noticed this.  Execution speed is the umbrella term for Attack and Casting speeds.  It should rightly be attack speed that affects weapon-based CA's.

Wiki says it speeds up weapon speed, which of dimitry is right, "should" increase Ruthless Mutilations animation speed. Unless Ruthless Mutilation at one point gets defined as "causesSpellDamage".

Edit: I only tested it with staffs + shield, so it could be a mage staff only problem.

Edit2: So the wiki doesnt state anything that attack speed% increases execution speed of weapon based CA. Either the wiki is correct, or it misses information.
http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Weapon_Damage_Based_Combat_Arts

Edit3: Or it could be an fanatiscism only bug.

Edit4: I tried it with Callous Execution, and the attack speed indeed seems to increase animation speed. Ever so slightly, but it looks like it does. This seems to be concerning Ruthless Mutiliation only, maybe Fanatisiscm only.

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment
7 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Which file do I have to check ? spells.txt ?

Correct.

7 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Ever so slightly, but it looks like it does.

The vanilla cap is 1500. That's 2,5 times ~= 2,08 attacks/sec for a median animation. 1500 + 200 = 1700 = 2,7 times ~= 2,25 attacks/sec. You'd need a timing device to see the difference.

7 hours ago, Charon117 said:

fanatiscism only bug.

I doubt  there's a bug. Fanaticism gives 150 at level 1 and 500 at level 101. That's... not much. 

Edited by dimitrius154
Link to comment
7 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Edit2: So the wiki doesnt state anything that attack speed% increases execution speed of weapon based CA. Either the wiki is correct, or it misses information.

That would be covered under the section Applying Item Modifiers: "All the Item Modifiers that apply to the normal hits also apply to the weapon based Combat Arts."

I can't see anything wrong with Ruthless Mutilation. It responds to attack speed boosts as expected.

Link to comment

Oh. Sorry for the wild goose chase than. I guess that was premature, I didnt consider ... a lot of factors.

I have run more tests since, and if dimitry says the difference are marginal, I believe him.

However, more questions pop up from this. The main difference between CA and normal attacks I have found is that normal attacks are cancel-able, and CA are not. Now that has many implications. For instance that animation time for normal attacks are a non issue, since they are cancelable. If the inquisitor has 102% AS, and uses FF to go to 133% the difference in dps is enormous. Around 30% Exactly like the numbers suggest. On the other hand dimitry says that CA animations only profit marginally from AS, that means that ( with all the modded removed SpeedMax = 4000 ) normal attacks are going to be your main dps, simply because your CA animations throttle your DPS. And yes, as dimitry pointed out, Flix, in vanilla people would reach 150% AS with a level 3 char and a level 1 FF. Thats how fast people reach the AS cap ( in vanilla ). Now with all the modded content around and 4000 maxspeed this is ofcourse different. But no matter if it is vanilla or modded content, normal attacks overtake CA pretty immediatelly in dps.

This puts a whole new emphasis on weapon CA. You should have your weapon CA on a medium level, because being stuck in a CA animation costs you a lot of DPS. No ? The less CA you use, and the more runes you read in the higher the damage for each use, and the less time you spend locked in a CA animation.

Honestly I think it to be a little bit counterintuitive to have weapon CA to not execute in the same timeframe as a normal attack. I always though of weapon CA as a "instead of a normal attack I use a better one". But this rather screams for weapon CA to only use them if you have a special occasion which needs them ?

I assume somebody could make weapon CA cancel-able, and thuse unlock their full potential. Although that would get op pretty fast. The consistency is messed up though ..

Sacred 2 is limitless in its discovery process.

 

Or somebody could lock normal attacks to not be cancelable, but that has many deep implications. Prolly game-breaking ones.

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment
15 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

dimitry says that CA animations only profit marginally from AS

False: you can still up your attack rate up to 150%(170% with the Fervor active). That's substantial. In fact, few games allow that much. If I recall correctly, Diablo II unmodded has a cap of 100% increase.

22 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

make weapon CA cancel-able, and thuse unlock their full potential.

Oh boy, the can of worms that would unleash.... Especially in multiplayer, due to server-client desync bugs... 

By the way, the only reason you have the ability to cancel normal attacks is the animation blending routine(it's about timings and mouse clicks).

Link to comment
12 minutes ago, dimitrius154 said:

False: you can still up your attack rate up to 150%(170% with the Fervor active). That's substantial. In fact, few games allow that much. If I recall correctly, Diablo II unmodded has a cap of 100% increase.

Uhm what ?

An inquisitor with 102% AS which gets a FF lvl1 buff to 133% AS Only gets around 2 frames of less animation time when using CA.

An inquisitor which undergoes the same +31% AS speed buff gets around a ~30% increased real AS, as normal attacks are cancelable.

2 Frames vs ... 1.3/1 of the base frame value of normal attacks. Thats what I call a significant difference in re-al AS gain.

 

12 minutes ago, dimitrius154 said:

By the way, the only reason you have the ability to cancel normal attacks is the animation blending routine(it's about timings and mouse clicks).

I ... know. Otherwise your LFM would always overtake your RMB and you would never use RMB when holding LRMB down and run through Ancaria. Its like somebody put a temporary solution into it and said "We ll make a proper solution later" :D

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment

The weapon, or spell IAS you get from items are the same properties you get from support spells, Fervor included. The perceived difference may stem from the fact, that normal and CA weapon attack animations are not of the same length. Their "deal damage" frame time also differs. And IAS is relative to the animation played. Also the non-Addendum Inquisitor is a unique poor choice for attack speed measurements, since his animation blending time is always 0 in vanilla(it's 0.25 sec. for everyone else), and 10 times less than any other character(0.01 vs. 0.1).

Link to comment
6 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

The weapon, or spell IAS you get from items are the same properties you get from support spells, Fervor included.

I wasnt questioning that. Dunno why you mention it. I appreciate the information, but .. .

6 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

The perceived difference may stem from the fact, that normal and CA weapon attack animations are not of the same length.

The perceived difference of what ?

1. Normal attacks are cancelable. There is no perceived difference here. You can see that with the naked eye.
2. AS of FF decreases animation. Not by 30% but rather by a few frames. So little that I needed to look VERY closely and run some video recording tests. I think thats also what you were trying to say. AS improves CA animation only marginally.

6 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

Also the non-Addendum Inquisitor is a unique poor choice for attack speed measurements, since his animation blending time is always 0 in vanilla(it's 0.25 sec. for everyone else), and 10 times less than any other character(0.01 vs. 0.1)

This comment kinda implies that I should have had that knowledge available prior to writing. Which I didnt. I gladly mention this again but you are the only one around with inside coding experience of Sacred 2. But you are running around as if everybody had the same skill set, experience and knowledge. Kinda comes off that way. I appreciate the information, but .. .

The summary of my post is just this: Normal attacks are cancelable, which means animation restrictions apply less to normal attacks and that you will gain a close to all of your AS as pure speed gain. CA animations are not cancelable, and only marginally get boosted by AS. CA animations are a real AS throttles. As a consequence you, the player, should check whether or not you might be doing better with normal attacks, and use CA only sparsely. Most guides sing the song of keeping your CA as low as possible, to use them as often as possible, but they dont mention that you should additionally check the time you need for your animations. Depending on character, CA and other factors your current setup might be improved upon, some item modifiers% might be useless to you. Getting AS% mods is useless if you are already consequently spam Pelting Strikes, as you only get a fraction of the improved AS%. You might better put your gear into increasing damage directly. All of this is good and valuable information if you enjoy playing the game.

 

Cheers

 

Somebody should write that in the wiki or stuff. If we could get an approximite % on how much AS cuts down on animation and get the absolute unskippable frame data that would make for an interesting entry. Wouldnt you think so ? <3

 

Edit: I have to take back what I said. While normal attacks indeed have much higher DPS with moderate +AS%, its execution is depending on the human to switch targets seamlessly. That means a human has to evaluate current target, next target and the potential kill moment at any given moment. While CA animations throttle you DPS quite hard, they have an autoswitch to the next available target, and therefore seamlessly link your attacks together, and most importantly they do this with minimal input from the player. So with micromanagement you can indeed increase your DPS, but it takes a lot of effort for an uncertain gain, depending on human execution.
Targets which dont require switching are a different topic though.

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment
43 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

dit: I have to take back what I said. While normal attacks indeed have much higher DPS with moderate +AS%, its execution is depending on the human to switch targets seamlessly. That means a human has to evaluate current target, next target and the potential kill moment at any given moment. While CA animations throttle you DPS quite hard, they have an autoswitch to the next available target, and therefore seamlessly link your attacks together, and most importantly they do this with minimal input from the player. So with micromanagement you can indeed increase your DPS, but it takes a lot of effort for an uncertain gain, depending on human execution.

I'm glad you came to this realization. The other huge glaring thing is the massively increased damage, chance to hit, and other useful modifiers many weapon-based CA's have like Deep Wounds, Death Blow, etc.  Not to mention, something I've been meaning to mention since this discussion started, many weapon-based CA's are multi-hit, hitting either numerous enemies at once, or several targets in succession.  This being the case, even if weapon CA's aren't cancelable,  I have always felt a certain smoothness and superior killing power when using weapon-based CA's vs. LMB attacks, especially with sufficient Regen per Hit. 

  • Like! 1
Link to comment

@Flix There is still something we can take away from this. AS sucks ass. I dont mean that as in equipment +AS% or weapon +AS%. Just in general. AS% would suck even more if normal attacks would not be cancelable. It sucks so hard that FF isnt a skill anymore that does anything, besides what the mods might add ( dodge%, AV and MS ). This kinda makes me think whether or not we shouldnt use AS% a bit differently, as the current "+100AS% ? Great. you saved 6 frames." is not really compelling. Just noted as a balance point issue.

Edit: Haha. Mage weapon lore only increases hit chances (AV), and AS. So even a mage Inquisition aspect inquisitor wouldnt need weapon mage staff lore. If higher level mage staffs can be used with CA with little consequences. In this FF could even counter-act the lost speed.
I want my skill slot back ... ( I know an editor exists ).

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment

The most glaring example of CA animation speed might be using Pelting Strikes with a dual-wield build and comparing it to using the BFG weapon. If your AS is at 150% (cap) for both instances you'll notice just how faster PS hits with the BFG. Yes it depends on the animation of each CA, and furthermore of each CA with each different weapon type. Some CAs will work better with specific weapon types, but to me that's part of the variety the game has, and only adds to how much we can explore while playing and enjoying Sacred 2.

Another interesting example is using a dual-wield build with an Inquisitor and a Shadow Warrior, using a mage staff as your primary weapon, and then casting Ruthless Mutilation with the Inquisitor and Scything Sweep with the Shadow Warrior. Check it out, it's fun.

I won't go as far as saying that AS isn't important in this game. In fact if you're using weapon hits and/or weapon-based CA hits your AS will be a major factor in increasing your DPS. Try casting a multi-hit weapon based CA (Pelting Strikes or Frenzied Rampage for example) with 100% AS and then with 150% AS. It's clearly not the same thing. That's why having a weapon skill is such a necessity when planning a build that's going to make use of weapon-based CAs, and even more if you intend to replace normal attacks with using mainly those CAs.

Just my two cents, I hope they're helpful.

  • Like! 1
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Androdion said:

The most glaring example of CA animation speed might be using Pelting Strikes with a dual-wield build and comparing it to using the BFG weapon. If your AS is at 150% (cap) for both instances you'll notice just how faster PS hits with the BFG.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Melee and Ranged weapons are fundamentally different, so are their animations.

Im not comparing apples with oranges. I compare an Inquisitor using RM with 100% and 130% AS. Difference: 2 frames.

The other example is also apples with oranges. Comparing 2 different animations isnt really what this is about.

1 hour ago, Androdion said:

In fact if you're using weapon hits and/or weapon-based CA hits your AS will be a major factor in increasing your DPS.

But dimitry said it will only increase it slightly. These are also my findings. So no, they won´t fundamentally increase anything, as even 100% AS would only increase things slightly. Pelting Strike is one of the longest animations in the game, and so it will profit the most of all animations from AS, but that doesnt help all the other CAs.

The wiki says that +AS% weapon lore speed caps out at +80%. So again, not really anything that improves upon anything, and if, you have to invest heavily into it, and gain a marginal return. Dimitry said that the animation blending time is 0.25 seconds, which means you cap out your normal attack speed at 4 times per second.

But all this gets past the point, the real questions are:

  • For magic staff lore: Do you need the Attack Value ? If not, you can easily replace it with COE and COCE and the inquisitor can use Soul Reaver anyway.  If you use CAs regularly you dont need the AS speed, and you dont care about the -AS% of using higher level staffs either. You will only miss out on mods which require the mage staff skill.
  • There arent really that many AS% items anyway, and they shouldnt be the reason why you use the item. Usually AS comes in a combo with something else.
  • Does mage staff skill mastery double attack stack with RM double attack chance ?  And if, does it have diminishing returns ? Is it 15% + 25% ? or is it 15% + (0.85 * 0.25) = 36.35% ? Does mage staff mastery stack with any other CA ?
  • Skill mastery should unlock some additional mods on items ? I think ?

Love the discovery process, but I think the tooltips could use information of how much AS% they draw for CA animation speed. Or maybe not.

Bottom line is that AS should never be a deciding factor for your decisions. Nice to have, but caps out quickly.

 

I appreciate the input.

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment

I gave that second example because those two animations are very very similar, and if there are technical differences between the animations in terms of code with the Inquisitor then it'd be interesting to compare. Just that. You're right when you say that comparing melee and ranged is comparing apples and oranges, but I was just stating that there are different animations for different weapons. So the animations of a certain CA will be quite alright on one and not the other, PS being the best example. If you have PS with low regen and regen per hit to cover the distance you can basically machine gun every mob, and the BFG will shoot different enemies while the CA is being executed if the first falls down. But if you use PS with melee weapons then you'll find out just how long the animation for the CA execution is. That was the comparison I made, that with different weapons there are different (better, worse) effects.

I'll have to say, I don't "speak code". I had a very hard time catching up with Flix and Dmitry when we were going on about CM 1.60 because those two have a much bigger understanding than my own of cause-effect in terms of code strings-actual effect. I can only talk about what I experience with the game. Think of it like in audiophile terms, I'm the guy who "feels it" and they're the ones who tell me I'm wrong because the numbers don't match. :D

When I say that attack speed is a major factor in increasing your DPS I'm talking about both LMB attacks and RMB weapon-based CAs (since AS counts as cast speed for those). The more you have over the base 100% value the faster you're able to hit with LMB and the faster the RMB CA is executed (you could say the animation is faster). That's very evident with multi-hit CAs, and one of the reasons why +%AS jewellery is so good at lower levels because it gives you a jump start over mobs before the SB starts increasing their levels. But by then you should have enough skill points into a proper weapon skill which essentially negates those small percentual bonuses. By the time you hit mastery you'll easily have hit the 150% cap for AS so yes, it caps out pretty quick indeed. But playing at higher difficulties without having hit that cap makes your DPS drop substantially.

 

49 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

But dimitry said it will only increase it slightly. These are also my findings. So no, they won´t fundamentally increase anything, as even 100% AS would only increase things slightly. Pelting Strike is one of the longest animations in the game, and so it will profit the most of all animations from AS, but that doesnt help all the other CAs.

The wiki says that +AS% weapon lore speed caps out at +80%. So again, not really anything that improves upon anything, and if, you have to invest heavily into it, and gain a marginal return. Dimitry said that the animation blending time is 0.25 seconds, which means you cap out your normal attack speed at 4 times per second.

I'll admit I'm not understanding this part.

 

50 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

But all this gets past the point, the real questions are:

  •  For magic staff lore: Do you need the Attack Value ? If not, you can easily replace it with COE and COCE and the inquisitor can use Soul Reaver anyway.  If you use CAs regularly you dont need the AS speed, and you dont care about the -AS% of using higher level staffs either. You will only miss out on mods which require the mage staff skill.
  • There arent really that many AS% items anyway, and they shouldnt be the reason why you use the item. Usually AS comes in a combo with something else.
  • Does mage staff skill mastery double attack stack with RM double attack chance ?  And if, does it have diminishing returns ? Is it 15% + 25% ? or is it 15% + (0.85 * 0.25) = 36.35% ? Does mage staff mastery stack with any other CA ?
  • Skill mastery should unlock some additional mods on items ? I think ?

I remember asking Dmitry if mastery double attacks were restricted to LMB hits or if they were also applicable to RMB CAs, but for the life of me I can't remember the answer. He and Flix can tell you that. Skill mastery on weapon skills does unlock further bonuses yes, they're even called "mastery" bonuses on the weapons description. I think they only spawn after Platinum though. For your first question, I think it depends on your build more than anything. For instance, Dual Wield (the skill) replaces the AS bonus of any other weapon skill when you use two weapons combined, so in fact unless you're going after the specific bonuses of specific weapon classes you can pretty much "only" master the Dual Wield skill. Sure you'll loose on the bonus to attack value, but it's a worthy sacrifice if you can make better use of another skill on your build.

  • Respect! 1
Link to comment
5 hours ago, Charon117 said:

 

Somebody should write that in the wiki or stuff. If we could get an approximite % on how much AS cuts down on animation and get the absolute unskippable frame data that would make for an interesting entry. Wouldnt you think so ?

I do. The wiki is in for an overhaul, if the Addendum fires, that is.

 

5 hours ago, Charon117 said:

There is no perceived difference here. You can see that with the naked eye.

He-he, "with the naked eye" is the very definition of "perceived". Okay, anims vary in length and they don't have that important [ATTACK] parameter set a the same point(take a look at "animation.txt") and IAS is not absolute, but relative to the currently played animation.

1 hour ago, Androdion said:

mastery double attacks were restricted to LMB hits or if they were also applicable to RMB CAs,

Skills, right? Doesn't work at all. That's why I changed that description part.

5 hours ago, Charon117 said:

This comment kinda implies that I should have had that knowledge available prior to writing.

Nope, that was an additional info. Hmm, somehow I manage to make people uneasy, or mad by making certain statements, that I never intend to be insulting. Had been a problem for years 

Edited by dimitrius154
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Androdion said:

you could say the animation is faster

Come here, have a hug and sit down. Take your favourite beverage and some calming tea.

Yes, it makes the animation faster. Thats what we have been talking about all the time.

  • There is attack speed and animation speed. They are both like a cooldown, a time when you cant trigger another attack or animation while the cooldown is still running. They are both distinctive, and they dont necessarily have to be the same.
    If your attack speed cooldown is bigger than your animation speed than what you will experience is that your character will make the attack, and then wait around, until his invisible attack speed cooldown has run out.
    If your attack speed cooldown is lower than your animation time, than your character wants to make another attack, but the animation is still running, and so he has to wait until the animation finishes, before he can start another one.
  • Normal attack animations are cancelable, which means that if your attack speed cooldown has already run out, but your animation is still running, the game cancels the animation before it finishes and starts another one. This means that you can attack more frequently because you dont have to wait around until your animation finishes.
  • +50% Attack Speed gets almost purely translated for normal attacks, because normal attack animations are cancelable. So if you have +50% AS, you more or less get around + 50% attacks. +50% AS means that in the time you would normally do 2 strikes, you can do 3.
  • +50% AS only means around 4% animation speed increase ( exact numbers still waiting on dimitry ). That means for characters that majorly depend on using CA, AS does increase the speed animation only marginally. If you have the choice between 50% damage, or +50% AS and you are only using PS you have to realise that you are having the decision between +50% damage and +4% speed. An enormous difference. This is why I am saying AS is bad in general. If you have the choice, choose something better.
    The other thing is that speed caps out waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fast.
  • On the lower end you have the invisible attack speed cap. You think about it like that every character cant attack faster than using up 0.25 seconds. So no matter how fast you are you won´t be able to go above 4 attacks per second.
    On the higher end you have in vanilla 150% MaxSpeed cap. Now think about the following possibilities.
  • FF F at level 1 gives you +50% AS. Now it also raises the cap to 170, ok. FF F level 33 gives you +70%. That means that ALL your AS% equipment, set boni and lore AS increases are worth zilch. Now if you dont need the attack value and bother with the -AS% of higher level items ( because -AS% only affects aniamtions minimally ), cant use the mastery bonus because double attacks only apply to LMB or RMB when the skill also has double attack, you could use that skill slot for something else. Something more useful.
  • Imagine another scenario. Weapon Lore mastery of level 110 gives you +50% AS with that weapon. That means that ALL other equipment, set boni and spells you might cast are all worth zilch.
    Ofcourse you could remove the cap, and have a modded game
  • Having too much AS% destabilises your game. I mean more than just the normal amount of instability. Running animations faster means that the game needs to load the faster, and play them faster, and then pack them faster away. A recipe for disaster. My seraphim with 264% of AS attacks faster than the camera can follow the model. Crashes the game in 5 minutes.

So you can see that the way AS is applied in Sacred 2 isnt really in the best way. It gets capped and cut at every corner, makes your hard earned AS worth nothing, only partially applies to animations and when you remove the cap the game gets more unstable. I hope this helped you to understand the topic.

 

 

On another note and since so many new builds are on the horizon, dimitry can you

softocde the fonts on hit, like
-hide experience gain
-hide damage counter
-hide enemy damage counter
-hide heal
- everything else there is

and extrapolate it ?

Also one of the reasons why I dont use combos, is because if I run with LRMB through the game, and use a combo, the combo only gets to the first CA, and then stops because it has to run an LMB. This really makes combos unuseable. If somebody can fix it, than it is you ;).

Link to comment
24 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

softocde the fonts on hit

Unfortunately, those are hardcoded. The coloration and the opacity are embedded in s2logic.dll AND s2core.dll. Could make them transparent, though I hardly see the benefit. Using float text tactical statistics has become somewhat of a standart for non-FPS games in recent years.

Edited by dimitrius154
Link to comment

Oh, I'm light as a feather and slowly savouring my newly found love, Ardbeg 10. I wish it was as cheap as tea! :lol:

Thank you for the thorough explanation, I've understood all of your points clearly. The only thing I don't think I agree with is the 4% increase in CA animation speed at 150% attack speed. I mean, the numbers may prove me wrong but from my experience having played extensively with a Shadow Warrior and Frenzied Rampage I just can't see how the animation speed on that CA could be improved so little when it's executed all that faster. It could be placebo, granted, but the speed at which multiple hits are made when you cast a high-level FR with the 150% AS cap is just too different from the standard 100% AS. Maybe it has to do with the CA level and it has some sort of hidden formula underneath the hood, I couldn't say. But graphically and visually the difference is evident. To me at least. But like I said above, guy who listens to music vs audiophile you know?!

Taking the BFG+PS example once again, if I may, when the scenario is the same as with Frenzied Rampage (high CA level and high AS) the shooting is visually much faster than just a 4% increase. At least it "feels" that way. But I won't debate this to the ground.

According to the Wiki (yes I know it's not written in stone) you only need level 103 on a weapon skill to achieve the AS cap, and if you make that weapon skill a primary mastery and even leave it at 75 hard points then sure, it's pretty easy to achieve that value via +all skills and the likes of it to reach the cap before you even get your toon to level 100. And then you can climb all the way to 200. You can definitely hit the cap faster if you get extra bonuses from gear, so yes it caps really fast! And then you feel like there's no more progression, I can understand that. You call it poor design and implementation and I couldn't even try to begin to convince you otherwise. I just try to live with what the game has to offer really.

I began playing the game with version 2.0.2 or something, the vanilla Fallen Angel DVD. At some point in time I discovered the game patches and played extensively with 2.40. Then I tried 2.43 which was terribly unstable, and for years I was left at that. Then I bought Sacred 2 Gold and played a few more hundreds of hours. Then came CM 1.50, then CM 1.60. Nowadays I'm not playing it, but I've already tried EE too, so if you ask me what exactly was the original plan with Sacred 2... I mean, I couldn't really say given all the transformations (and nerfs) it endured. The game has been altered so much since its inception that it's hard for me to fault it for being this or that, so when I get to it I try to make the best out of it. It's like when people started twisting the game builds to have something that shouldn't really work but it actually did.

Maybe it's just the Ardbeg talking, or my romantic view of a game I've played for ten years, but I think the possibilities the game gives us are so many that no one will ever find a "perfect version" of it. Or a perfect build for that matter. Just their own I guess.

PS: I'm really sorry to keep misspelling your name at every turn Dmitriy, I don't know why but I just can't seem to spell it correctly from memory. Maybe I should start copy-pasting it (like I just did). :blush:

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Also one of the reasons why I dont use combos, is because if I run with LRMB through the game, and use a combo, the combo only gets to the first CA, and then stops because it has to run an LMB. This really makes combos unuseable.

Forgot to address this. If you put a CA that needs targeting in the second slot of a combo then that CA won't execute because it has no target. Casting a combo depends on clicking on your RMB once and letting the combo execute, but if the second CA needs targeting then your combo stops there. You may not agree with it but that's just how it works. I mainly use combos for temporary buffs (Frenetic Fervor+Paralizing Dread for example) as there's no need to execute them separately, or for multiple weapon-based CAs in a row (Ruthless Mutilation+Callous Execution for example). My favourite combo with the Inquisitor is Clustering Maelstrom+Ruthless Mutilation followed by Ruthless Mutilation+Callous Execution, so with one RMB click and two presses of the other CA/combo numerical key you can literally wipe out the floor of Ancaria. Three keys, countless dead. :D

Combos can work to your advantage but you can't make them into something they're not.

Link to comment
34 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Thank you for the thorough explanation, I've understood all of your points clearly. The only thing I don't think I agree with is the 4% increase in CA animation speed at 150% attack speed. I mean, the numbers may prove me wrong but from my experience having played extensively with a Shadow Warrior and Frenzied Rampage I just can't see how the animation speed on that CA could be improved so little when it's executed all that faster. It could be placebo, granted, but the speed at which multiple hits are made when you cast a high-level FR with the 150% AS cap is just too different from the standard 100% AS. Maybe it has to do with the CA level and it has some sort of hidden formula underneath the hood, I couldn't say. But graphically and visually the difference is evident. To me at least. But like I said above, guy who listens to music vs audiophile you know?!

Like I said, we are waiting on concrete numbers with dimitry. My experience mostly centers around the Inquisitor and Ruthless Mutilition. And the experiment only contains raising the AS%. You are bringing up a good point, it could be that the CA level decreases (potential) animation time. But that would just further put emphasis on how bad AS is. Nobody says that there are not any hidden formular, but we are talk about an identical build where we only switch around AS% numbers.

39 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Taking the BFG+PS example once again, if I may, when the scenario is the same as with Frenzied Rampage (high CA level and high AS) the shooting is visually much faster than just a 4% increase. At least it "feels" that way. But I won't debate this to the ground.

You are completely misinformed about ranged weapons and multihit CA. First, the animation time of any ranged weapon with a (sequencial) multihit CA finishes when the first projectile is generated. That is in the moment the first projectile gets created the game says "Done, whats next ?" Ofcourse you still have to finish the animation, but the additional projectiles created afterwards have nothing to do with the animation anymore.

43 minutes ago, Androdion said:

According to the Wiki (yes I know it's not written in stone) you only need level 103 on a weapon skill to achieve the AS cap, and if you make that weapon skill a primary mastery and even leave it at 75 hard points then sure, it's pretty easy to achieve that value via +all skills and the likes of it to reach the cap before you even get your toon to level 100. And then you can climb all the way to 200. You can definitely hit the cap faster if you get extra bonuses from gear, so yes it caps really fast! And then you feel like there's no more progression, I can understand that. You call it poor design and implementation and I couldn't even try to begin to convince you otherwise. I just try to live with what the game has to offer really.

Dude, we are on the same side. I like the game as much as you do. And one of the reasons I think there is a SpeedMax in the game is to not break it. Im not bashing the game, im just discovering it. One of the consequences of this discovery is that I swtiched out my Mage Staff Lore with Tactical Lore. realising that
1. I dont need the attack value. With soul reaver I get around 16k attack value at level 50.
2. Speed doesnt do anything for RM or CE, so I can skip it.
3. I dont need the unlockable mods of magic staffs, the only one that I have seen unlockable is blockchance:mekee. Now believe me when I say that when I go into melee range im in trouble
4. I only miss out on the far away-not-yet-available-unknown mastery mods, which are propably not worth it anyway.
5. Double hit on mastery. Yes thats what I miss out on. uhm compare 25% double hit to 180% Damage and 9% crit chance. Uhm ... guess what I take ?

 

:)

 

 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

You are completely misinformed about ranged weapons and multihit CA. First, the animation time of any ranged weapon with a (sequencial) multihit CA finishes when the first projectile is generated. That is in the moment the first projectile gets created the game says "Done, whats next ?" Ofcourse you still have to finish the animation, but the additional projectiles created afterwards have nothing to do with the animation anymore.

Oh, this is indeed news to me. Thanks for clearing that up.

3 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

Dude, we are on the same side.

Well, of course we are. Why would you think otherwise?!

That's the thing with DarkMatters, we're all on the same side here. That doesn't mean we can't disagree but we're all here for our love of the game, so believe me when I tell you that no one bashes anyone else here. It's not the MO of this forum, but I do realize how easy it is to be defensive when that's the norm everywhere else. We're all a bit "intense" but no one here tries to overcome the other. So yeah, we're cool. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
39 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Forgot to address this. If you put a CA that needs targeting in the second slot of a combo then that CA won't execute because it has no target. Casting a combo depends on clicking on your RMB once and letting the combo execute, but if the second CA needs targeting then your combo stops there.

First, you are wrong. Secondly, I cant test the part you might be right about.

Lets get over the part where you are wrong about. Executing a combo with a targeting spell in the second slot works fine. At least with the Inquisitor I tested 2 minutes ago. Here comes the part I cant test.
I cant test whether or not a targeting a second mob if the first one got killed works. Mainly because I am not sure if the game doest lock onto the target right before the first animation finishes.
BUT
there are so called autoswitch CA. Autoswitch CA target the next possible mob if the targeted mob is 1. non-existent or 2. out of range. Ruthless Mutiliation would be an example for an autoswitch CA. It executes as long as you have a target and hold down RMB. (Just like good code)

No, the problem is clearly the >animation blending routine< which interferes with the combo as long as you hold RLMB.

39 minutes ago, Androdion said:

My favourite combo with the Inquisitor is Clustering Maelstrom+Ruthless Mutilation followed by Ruthless Mutilation+Callous Execution, so with one RMB click and two presses of the other CA/combo numerical key you can literally wipe out the floor of Ancaria. Three keys, countless dead. :D

The main problems with combos is this general true statement:

"Hey X combos really well into Y" "Oh really ? Do you know what combos better into X ? X." Ruthless Mutiliation combos best into Ruthless Mutiliation. The only real exception for this are 2 high cd CA in the same aspect. But usually you try to keep your CA cd low.

39 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Combos can work to your advantage but you can't make them into something they're not.

Combos

1. are meant to have a single cd. Not taking the currently highest cd of an integrated CA as the cd.
2. are not meant to be interruptable by a simple LMB statement. Arrow keys, yes. but no LMB ones.

 

 

Also @dimitrius154congrats on your profile pick.

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment

Ok I should've phrased it differently. If the second CA in the combo requires you to actively target an area then it usually fizzles after the first CA in the combo executes.

First example that comes to mind is Shadow Step, which a user asked about some time ago why he couldn't have it second placed in a combo. That's because it requires you an action (targeting the area for teleporting) which the combo execution doesn't allow for when it's the second CA because you don't click again mid execution. That's what I was talking about. I can't give you the full list of CAs that behave like that though.

Combos in Sacred 2, imo, act like they do in order for you to save a hotkey, which are limited to five like you know. That's a non-issue when you have a single aspect toon, but if you use two or three aspects then it can be good to have several CAs into the same hotkey wouldn't you agree?

I get why you say that "x works better with x", I do. But I use combos to improve efficiency of multiple CAs at the same time. Like I said above, casting FF+PD in a combo is faster and requires less clicks and micro management than casting both CAs separately. Same goes for CM+RM. But yeah, to each his own I guess.

Link to comment

@Androdion I getchu about running out of hotkey slots. Thats what I also get. But lately I removed FF from my hotkey bar as it has no use any longer.

>Like I said above, casting FF+PD in a combo is faster and requires less clicks and micro management

>< You are wrong again. When I start my mob run I start pressing LRMB on the first mob. I have 1. RM 2.Inexorible Subjugation/Mortifying Pillar 3.CE 4. Maelstrom 5. Paralysing dread on the hotkeys.

I usually start with a 1. then my left hand presses 5., then 1. again.

Press 2. for stronger mobs/hard champions
Press 4. for big chunk of mobs
Press 3. for hard single targets or when mopping up less than 3 enemies
Press 1 for everything else.
Press 5. if you only want to use normal attacks and avoid autoswitching CA
Your mouse controls the direction your are moving into. If you select a mob it gets attacked until its dead.

If I would still have FF one 4., I would press 5, then 4., then 1 again and seamlessly continue farming. consequently executing all buffs I need with no loss of time. If combos wouldnt stop with holding down LRMB I would use them, but I am not going to sacrifice a tightly linked experience just so I can use combos. This is why I am saying combos were not to be meant interruptable by LMB input. Yes, it saves 1 hotkey, but it interrupts your LRMB experience.

The perfect farm run only contains of 2 clicks, once I press the LMB, and once I press the RMB. The rest is seamlessly switching between 5 numbers with my left hand, adapting to every situation. Saves the mouse. But your method looks cool too.

 

Yes, CA requiring an empty target cant be combined together which need an selected target (enemy). Thats basic.

Edited by Charon117
Link to comment
5 hours ago, Charon117 said:

First, the animation time of any ranged weapon with a (sequencial) multihit CA finishes when the first projectile is generated. That is in the moment the first projectile gets created the game says "Done, whats next ?" Ofcourse you still have to finish the animation, but the additional projectiles created afterwards have nothing to do with the animation anymore.

The projectiles are generated, server- and clientside, at [ATTACK], [ATTACK1], etc. breakpoints defined in animation.txt for the specific spell animation. The process is performed during the animation, not afterwards, and is interruptible. 

  • Like! 1
Link to comment
4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

This is why I am saying combos were not to be meant interruptable by LMB input.

Personally I'm glad I can interrupt them because I sometimes need to.  The auto-targeting of many weapon-based CA's is such that often when the second CA in a combo triggers the character fruitlessly chases a particular enemy within a big mob.  We alleviated it some in CM 1.60 by extending the range of melee weapons but it still happens.

Link to comment
  • The topic was pinned

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...
Please Sign In or Sign Up