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Sacred 2 Enhanced Edition


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16 minutes ago, Flix said:

Relax. You framed it like a problem, so I approached it like one.  It's not like you're stuck with whatever I do, and I haven't even done anything. XD

Dont take away my toys. (Cries in corner)

 

:D

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Some corrections and updates.

  • The initial projection of no cd for Stimulate turned out to be wrong. Looks like Stimulate follows a diminishing returns formular, estimated to be 1 - 0.95 ^ (1 +N), where N is the level of the CA. Practical tests with a 26.3 level CA seems to confirm the estimated accuracy of that formula. The 48 level CA also seems to fall in line with this. Here are some numbers written out.

    level 10 = 43 RhP%
    20 = 66%
    30 = 80%
    40 = 88%
    50 = 93%
    60 = 96%
    100 = 99.4%
     
  • RhP% doesnt seem to stack with RhP, or at least not with Stimulate.

As you can see Stimulate is far away from removing the cd initially, but makes such its end goal. Since CA level are level and lore depending I dont see this as abuseable unless you commit to it with a high level, and a high level lore.

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2 hours ago, Charon117 said:

RhP% doesnt seem to stack with RhP, or at least not with Stimulate

It couldn't, as Regeneration per Hit only triggers from weapon hits.

Thanks for the update.

  • Appreciation 1
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5 hours ago, Charon117 said:
  • The initial projection of no cd for Stimulate turned out to be wrong. Looks like Stimulate follows a diminishing returns formular, estimated to be 1 - 0.95 ^ (1 +N), where N is the level of the CA. Practical tests with a 26.3 level CA seems to confirm the estimated accuracy of that formula. The 48 level CA also seems to fall in line with this. Here are some numbers written out.

    level 10 = 43 RhP%
    20 = 66%
    30 = 80%
    40 = 88%
    50 = 93%
    60 = 96%
    100 = 99.4%

For what it's worth I believe the dev's liked using 1-1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/1000) (where x and y are the base and per level increase defined in spells.txt) for CA modifiers that stacked with diminishing returns.

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Weren't all x%RpH CA's touch attacks?

I was the opinion that combat discipline, chance to halve regeneration time and x%RpH all turned the regeneration clock in the original.

If chance to halve regeneration time triggered and you have 50%RpH, is this an instant regeneration?

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4 hours ago, chattius said:

If chance to halve regeneration time triggered and you have 50%RpH, is this an instant regeneration?

Yes, indeed. You can see that very clearly because half regeneration triggers instantly, but R%pH triggers when the hit registers.

 

5 hours ago, Dragon Brother said:

For what it's worth I believe the dev's liked using 1-1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/1000) (where x and y are the base and per level increase defined in spells.txt) for CA modifiers that stacked with diminishing returns.

? Did you check your formula ? That doesnt even make sense for a level 1 CA. Im sitting at my calculator trying to make sense out of that, but if I would understand it as it is supposed to be, I would say you are trying to say the same thing as I do, just that my formula is easier to understand.

Edited by Charon117
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52 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

Did you check your formula ? That doesnt even make sense for a level 1 CA. Im sitting at my calculator trying to make sense out of that, but if I would understand it as it is supposed to be, I would say you are trying to say the same thing as I do, just that my formula is easier to understand.

Sure it does:

Bonus value = 1-1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/1000)
x = 50, y = 50 (you said 5%+5% correct?)
Bonus = 1-1/(1+(50+50*calvl)/1000)

At level 1:
Bonus = 1-1/(1+(50+50*1)/1000)=1-1/(1+100/1000)=1-1/1.1=1-0.91=0.09 (or 9%)
At level 10:
Bonus = 1-1/(1+(50+50*10)/1000)=1-1/(1+550/1000)=1-1/1.55=1-0.65=0.35 (or 35%)

Difference to your numbers may be if the aspect lore increases the per level bonus. Your formula may be easier to understand, but as I said, this formula is what the dev's liked using for diminishing returns in CA's.

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1 hour ago, Dragon Brother said:

Sure it does:

><. Only if you know of the Sacred 2 axiom that 5% gets expressed as 50.

1 hour ago, Dragon Brother said:

Difference to your numbers may be if the aspect lore increases the per level bonus.

Since when does lore increase CA mods ? If that is true it should be noted somehwere.

Also I ran your numbers and they dont match with ingame behaviour. Too low. With level 48 your projected R%hP would be 71%, while I see at list a confirmable R%pH of 94%. Is level 54 Netherworld Focus enough to pump it up 23% ?

Anyway Sacred 2 is a mystery, may it always stay that way.

Edited by Charon117
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10 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Since when does lore increase CA mods ?

This is what I managed to scrape together: 

 

It doesn't matter if it's a modification or not, what matters is the type of property. I do not believe regeneration per hit is increased by aspect lore, but it may well be.

10 hours ago, Charon117 said:

If that is true it should be noted somehwere.

Each Aspect Lore page on the WIki lists any additional effects that get increased in lieu of damage.

10 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Anyway Sacred 2 is a mystery, may it always stay that way.

Did you rule out the possibility that Regeneration per Hit on spells is just a flat number, like the version on weapon hits? 

There are only two types of bonuses that get used for RpH:

type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT", -- this used for the the RpH item modifier, Alchemy trophies, and also on Magic Coup.

type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_ONCE", -- this is used on Callous Execution, Dislodged Spirit, & Jolting Touch.

Often when a bonus is percentage-based on the scripts it will have the _REL suffix, for example "BONUS_LIFELEECH" vs "BONUS_LIFELEECH_REL".

Just something to consider.

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16 hours ago, Charon117 said:

><. Only if you know of the Sacred 2 axiom that 5% gets expressed as 50.

The numbers are presented in spells.txt as 50, not 5, so it's clear enough once you start playing around with that file. However, where the numbers for each CA were added to the wiki that conversion has already been made though (and diminishing returns not necessarily considered) so easy to miss.

I will concede that there may be something else going on though if that formula doesn't add up with what you're seeing and if the aspect lore doesn't increase this bonus as Flix suggests. More investigation is required!

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1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Im pretty sure most people dont even see this page, as they directly access the CAs one.

I sent you to the overview page to give you a jumping off point to all of them.

Known Aspect Lore effects are listed on each individual combat art's page as well.  ;)

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Uhm ... im pretty sure there is critical information missing there. Or rather the opposite, This suggests that nothing else happens with the Lore. Right ?

That's exactly right.  If there's nothing else listed there, it's because nothing else is known to be improved by the Aspect Lore aside from the standard damage & execution speed. 

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

How about this improvement ?

"Increases inflicted damage, critical hit chance, and the execution speed of the Nefarious Netherworld Aspect of the Inquisitor. Enables the use of modifications for the aspect. Additionaly it boosts mods (bad idea to call 2 different things the same name) of the CA for an unknown amount. An incomplete list of boosted mods can be found here."

"Nefarious Netherworld Lore - improves magic damage and critical chance of the Deathmagic mod. Improves casting speed and allows for modification points. Additionally, if present, it boosts mods found here by an unknown amount.

I think it would be redundant and possibly confusing. Every modifier that's listed on that forum post is already included on the applicable Aspect Lore page AND the individual pages of the Combat Arts where they appear, both of which are linked to from numerous pages.  If one were to discover an additional modifier that was boosted by an Aspect Lore skill, I suggest it should be added in those two places.

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Dont tell me the wiki is *covering* information ;).

There are numerous examples of exactly what I described:

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Nature_Weaver_Lore

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Cabalistic_Voodoo_Lore

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Delphic_Arcania_Lore

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Revered_Technology_Lore

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Rallied_Souls

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Charged_Grid

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Crystal_Skin

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Here are the things we can take away from it. Propably

Thanks for the in-depth testing.  I'm almost completely convinced now it's just flat regen per hit. Activating more buffs increases your overall regen time, so the flat RpH doesn't regenerate as much, accounting for the mysterious extra cooldown you mentioned when turning on Purifying Chastisement.  Using the Source modification of Soul Reaver to improve regen times make that little cooldown go away because the RpH now exceeds your total regeneration time for that CA.

EDIT: I didn't think about this before but the easiest way to tell if it was percentage-based or not would be to just put other combat arts with varying regen times in the adjacent slots, if they all regenerate to full at exactly the same moment, it would be percentage-based. If they regenerate at various rates, it would be flat amounts.

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Kudos for the hard work, it makes it much easier to draw a conclusion!

I have to say that I do agree with Flix that it must be absolute regen per hit, not percent based. As Flix says, the difference between your tests is due to the differing bonuses and penalties associated with the buffs and associated mods you have active/inactive in each test.

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Yeah, I finally watched the video. It's definitely just a flat amount, see how Paralyzing Dread just regenerates tiny little ticks each time he casts Dislodged Spirit.

I will amend the Wiki page for DS and any other CA's that mention the non-existent RpH%.

EDIT: Ok, it's all updated. I will apologize for those %'s on the wiki, I'm the fool who put them there in the first place.  Several years back I went a crusade to insert the true, hard numbers from the scripts into the Wiki's Combat Art pages. I don't know why I thought they were percent values.

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>Known Aspect Lore effects are listed on each individual combat art's page as well.  ;)
>That's exactly right.  If there's nothing else listed there, it's because nothing else is known to be improved by the Aspect Lore aside from the standard damage & execution speed. 

So SRs Recreation is not affected by this, even though hitpoint regeneration is on your list ?

>There are numerous examples of exactly what I described:

So I stumbled upon the only not-exactly-right things ? Point taken.

 

So guys, are we absolutely sure that it is RhP instead of R%hP?

>EDIT: I didn't think about this before but the easiest way to tell if it was percentage-based or not would be to just put other combat arts with varying regen times in the adjacent slots, if they all regenerate to full at exactly the same moment, it would be percentage-based. If they regenerate at various rates, it would be flat amounts.

That isnt necessarily true. To be precise, you are chasing a unicorn. Stimulate indeed appears to be percentage based, but it regenerates percentage based on Dislodging Soul . So lets say you have 50% R%hP and 14 cd DS. 50% of 14 is 7, so all CA will regenerate for 7. But that fact doesnt mean Stimulate isnt R%hP, it just means R%hP gets converted into RhP based on DS. Im not saying either is correct, im just saying you cant exclude the possibility of a conversion from R%hP to RhP.

You would need to test the exact amount of Regen for each cooldown CA. Or find a different way to test it. One of the easiest way to test your theory is to have a cd which is below your "flat RhP". As far as I remember Callous Execution level 1 always regenerates for 5%, no matter how big or small the cd of CE is. This would be a clear indicator against your flat RhP.

>Yeah, I finally watched the video. It's definitely just a flat amount, see how Paralyzing Dread just regenerates tiny little ticks each time he casts Dislodged Spirit.

I watched it too, and I dont see it. First of all, the PD has next to no regeneration time. Its 99% cooldown of what you see. Cooldown cant be shortened by RhP. So there is literally nothing to see. IF you would follow your own theory you would realise that if it would be flat RpH you would only see an effect the first time. IF your statement is true it would be an argument for R%pH. But like I said there is nothing to see there.

 

To reiterate.

  • R%pH stacks without diminishing returns. Or at least DSs Stimulate.
  • RpH% suspected conversion into RpH doesnt take the additional buff reg mali into account and/or buff cd gets applied after the base cd of the CA.
  • There is a difference between base cd, and buff cd. It is suspected that some mods apply only to one of them, and some to both. This should be standard knowledge, because there is a literal mod called Regeneration Penalty from Buffs.

 

In my oppinion its definitely RpH%.

 

Edit: Here is a big hint:

>Using the Source modification of Soul Reaver to improve regen times make that little cooldown go away because the RpH now exceeds your total regeneration time for that CA.

Source only activates when a soul is being held. No soul in the recording was being held. Source had the equivalent of 0% RpH%. You can easily test that Source only activates when a soul is being held, so I won´t go into that. Like I said. 1. base cd and buff cd are 2 different things and 2. Same modifiers stack for different calculations across the board. Like if you have a sword with double hit%. It only works for LMB, but if you get a CA that also boosts double hit% both merge ( with or without diminishing returns). The same applies to the 2 different cds, SRs Source makes DSs Stimulate jump over. This is why the leftover cd vanishes again. At this point I think its a given that SRs Source affects buff cd, the only question I have if it only affects buff cd, or if it also affects base cd.

Edited by Charon117
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2 hours ago, Charon117 said:

So SRs Recreation is not affected by this, even though hitpoint regeneration is on your list ?

Sigh. Guess I missed that one. I'll fix it.

2 hours ago, Charon117 said:

So guys, are we absolutely sure that it is RhP instead of R%hP?

Well not anymore lol.  Blame staying up way too late last night for jumping to conclusions.  @dimitrius154 is there any way you can answer this definitively? Can you find the actual formula anywhere for a bonus with the type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_ONCE", and see if it's any different than type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT", ?

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1 hour ago, Flix said:

Can you find the actual formula anywhere for a bonus with the type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_ONCE", and see if it's any different than type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT"

It's a flat (a + b*level)/100 sec. subtraction from the current remaining regeneration time for both. It's that they are called differently: BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT is called during damage application from hits, while BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_ONCE is called by the CA damage dealing function, if the appropriate spellClass contains the code.

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1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

It's a flat (a + b*level)/100 sec. subtraction from the current remaining regeneration time for both. It's that they are called differently: BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT is called during damage application from hits, while BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_ONCE is called by the CA damage dealing function, if the appropriate spellClass contains the code.

I can confirm this on a 48.4/200 DS with a 93.6s cd. So it was flat RpH after all ... .

Uff .. what a journey, and I was wrong again.

 

Concerning Balance, you have my blessing to decrease the per level gain from 0.5s to 0.05s, as 0.5s RpH per level seems to be a big overkill. On level 10 that gives you a whole second which regnerates per hit. On level 100 you regenerate 5 seconds. Maybe 0.1% per level instead ?

I think we can close this, but as the next thing we could check whether SRs Source works as intended. At level 200 it would give 100% regeneration to everything, though im not sure what it takes to get a 200 CA.

 

Thx, Dimitrius.

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9 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Source had the equivalent of 0% RpH%.

One thing to point out is that Soul Reavers Source mod doesn't provide RpH, it reduces regen time by a percentage when active, but does nothing on hit. However, as to your query below, this I believe stacks with diminishing returns so won't be an issue (dimitrius can confirm if it is necessary...).

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

we could check whether SRs Source works as intended. At level 200 it would give 100% regeneration to everything, though im not sure what it takes to get a 200 CA.

 

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On 12/15/2019 at 4:17 PM, Dragon Brother said:

One thing to point out is that Soul Reavers Source mod doesn't provide RpH, it reduces regen time by a percentage when active, but does nothing on hit. However, as to your query below, this I believe stacks with diminishing returns so won't be an issue

This is true, you would never reduce your regeneration times on spells to 0.

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There are fun things, and then there are overpowered things. The following is an example of an overpowered one.

 

If you play around with Inexorable Subjugation long enough, you will start to notice a few things when it comes to your companions. Mostly glitchy and hilarious things, some really overpowered ones.

  • Enslaved ghosts who can summon sometimes summon a hireling, which in turn becomes invincible to dmg. It doesnt deal any damage, and it happens very rarely, but when it happens dozent of bosses can pound down on an earth elementar for hours. Good for tanking bosses. Or if you want an invincible pet. Why cant they summon cats ?
  • Buffs of enslaved mobs stack on your character ( until death or reload ). You think this is unspectacular until your realise you can stack reflect endlessly on your character. The following picture is a tragedy untold, as the golem pounded himself into submission. And the Angel said: "Stop hitting yourself."
    Unbenannt.thumb.jpg.9fd2028057757fc3795a29aa75f4e701.jpg

 

Now if you excuse me, I have to find that turtle which reflects CA, than blitz through the game on level 1, and complain to Flix that Challenge mode isnt hard enough ... 

Edited by Charon117
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Nothing I can do about that really, unless I remove every buff and summon ability from enslavement-eligible enemies.  Conversely I could make every enemy that has a buff or summon ability ineligible for enslavement.  I don't really like either option.

Any more comprehensive solution would have to be done at the code level by Dmitriy.

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8 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Enslaved ghosts who can summon sometimes summon a hireling

You know this actually reminds me of a similar exploit in Divine Divinity.  There was a rare enemy called a Skeletal Conjurer Lord, who could summon Skeletal Conjurers, who could in turn summon regular skeletons.  So if you killed and resurrected the Conjurer Lord, you would have a veritable army of summons within minutes.  I don't think it ever got patched either.  XD

divine_divinity-1b.jpg

 

By the way I think the buff stacking thing might be addressed in Dmitriy's mod, if so this will carry over to EE I'm able to use the binaries.

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