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Sacred 2 Enhanced Edition


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12 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

They sure do(since cast buff instances are different for different NPCs), provided there's that there's that nice "et_friendfactor" entry present for the spell in question. Which the "enemy_shield_spikeshield" has. Otherwise, they don't.

I assume if you remove that entry, it fixes the problem, since the turtle is a single unit anyway, and was never meant to buff the player ? Or maybe it was meant to buff other mobs with similar allegiance ?

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43 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

I assume if you remove that entry, it fixes the problem... Or maybe it was meant to buff other mobs with similar allegiance ?

It would fix the exploit for that one buff, but there are other buffs with friendfactor, and AFAIK, they are all meant to have that party functionality.  Orc Champions and Undead Tribunes come to mind, there are probably more that could be abused in this way.

Spikeshield could probably lose friendfactor and not impact normal gameplay, since as you said, turtles don't come in packs. But I'm loathe to remove it from the others.

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2 hours ago, Flix said:

It would fix the exploit for that one buff, but there are other buffs with friendfactor, and AFAIK, they are all meant to have that party functionality.  Orc Champions and Undead Tribunes come to mind, there are probably more that could be abused in this way.

I have enslaved everything from the westcoast to the eastcoast, and the only permanent buff I noticed were turtle ones. Could be wrong though.

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"enemy_scream_attack"

     Used by Orc Champions, Garema, Du'Rach, Jungle Lizards

"enemy_shield_spikeshield"

     Used only by certain elite turtles.

"enemy_scream_speed"

     Used by Goblins, Kobolds, Lizard Men, Pirates, Stone Men, Dragon Cultists

"enemy_grp_fireshield"

     Undead Legion, Harpies

"enemy_grp_boost_dmg"

     Blood Dryads, Undead Legionaires, T-Mutant Orcs, Troll Chieftains, Dragon Cultists, Thraconians

 

In the scripts the enemies that get these kind of party buffs are called the "officer" type. In-game they often have names like Champion, Chieftain, Leader, etc.  Elites are more likely to have these buffs than normal class enemies.

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4 hours ago, Flix said:

In the scripts the enemies that get these kind of party buffs are called the "officer" type.

They could be prevented from being resurrected by setting has_soul to 0, I guess. Then again, I don't see removing this fun minion buff exploit mechanics as a positive thing.  

Edited by dimitrius154
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1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

They could be prevented from being resurrected by setting has_soul to 0, I guess.

Yeah, making them ineligible for resurrection.  And also ineligible for harvesting by Soul Reaver, IIRC?  The other option is to remove friendfactor from all the buffs.

1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

Then again, I don't see removing this fun minion buff exploit mechanics as a positive thing.  

Tend to agree here.

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So guys, I didnt want to say something, because im usually wrong, but I dont want my reports to generate false consensus. When I said that I have enslaved everything from the west to eastcoast I didnt mean it as an example of how little I have yet seen, but rather than I havent encountered an enslaved mob buff that stuck permanently and with itself, except for the turtle one(s).

A lot of other mobs generate buffs for the group, yes, but their buffs get disabled and removed once the enslaved unit dies again. A recent example would be the harpies buff which generates a wooping 50% fire mitigation, but that buff gets removed again as soon as the harpy dies. It also doesnt stack with itself over and over again. So please dont talk about this problem as if it would be a widespread problem with enslaved mobs, it isnt. The real problem seems to be a coding one, only concerning the turtle buff, which makes it permanent and stack with itself. Most other buffs work as expected.

The only confirmed issue is the spiky shield of the turtle. All other glitches concerning the buffs of enslaved units have yet to be reported. But like I said my experience says that most of them seem to be working fine. The underlying issue is not "et_friendfactor", it is that the buff itself is wrongly coded, namely permanent and stackable. And thats nothing one can see while merely looking into the files.

 

Edit: Harpies Fire Mitigation is stackable, but its 1 buff per harpy, and its not permanent. So given you can farm 2 harpies you get 2x 50% fire mitigation for 70 seconds.

Edited by Charon117
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28 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

The only confirmed issue is the spiky shield of the turtle

Interesting. And, if you change the "enemy_shield_spikeshield"'s cSpellClass to "cSpellGrpBoostDmg", does the issue persist?

Edited by dimitrius154
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1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

The only confirmed issue is the spiky shield of the turtle. All other glitches concerning the buffs of enslaved units have yet to be reported. But like I said my experience says that most of them seem to be working fine. The underlying issue is not "et_friendfactor", it is that the buff itself is wrongly coded, namely permanent and stackable.

That does change things and it's certainly possible a simple script fix like D suggests may resolve it.

Try this version of spells.txt if you will please:

spells.txt

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1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

@Flix @dimitrius154 Yes, thats the fix. The spiky shield behaves exactly like the harpyies one now. That is if you get "out of range" the buff gets removed. "Out of range" includes range and death of the ghost pet. Its stackable once per pet.

Good to hear. I'll include the change in 2.3.

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@dimitrius154 I wonder, if you could please shed some light on the inner workings of the various armor debuff bonuses?

"BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR_POTENTIAL", (used for "sb_off_armorrip_phy", "wb_hftl_armorrip_phy", "wb_swdm_armorrip_phy", "sb_off_armorrip_all")

"BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR", (used for "bb_armorrip_phy", "bb_debuff_armor_phy", "bb_debuff_armor_fir")

"BONUS_LOWERARMOR", (used for "bb_lower_armor")

I recognize "BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR_POTENTIAL" as being the item modifier that gives a percent reduction to either a single channel or all-channel resistances.  But how is "BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR" different?  Is it perhaps a flat (absolute) reduction to the specified resistance?

Finally, "BONUS_LOWERARMOR" is even more a mystery, since it seemed totally unused until CM Patch and mods, and then only on spells.  I have been treating it like a flat reduction in my tooltips but I can't find any documentation to prove that.

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59 minutes ago, CapnTucker said:

Enjoying Enhanced Edition, with one exception. the superspawn hordes are just too much; how do I disable this and return to vanilla area densities?

Hey glad to hear you're enjoying the mod.  SuperSpawn will show up in the Generic Mod Enabler.  Just select it and click the "Disable" button.

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13 hours ago, Flix said:

I recognize "BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR_POTENTIAL" as being the item modifier that gives a percent reduction to either a single channel or all-channel resistances. 

Judging by the code, I think it decreases damage damping for channels in question.

13 hours ago, Flix said:

Is it perhaps a flat (absolute) reduction to the specified resistance?

Yes, it's a flat decrease.

13 hours ago, Flix said:

"BONUS_LOWERARMOR" is even more a mystery

Judging by what I see, it gives a chance to set the specified channel value to 0 for the duration of the debuffing spell. Needs testing.

Edited by dimitrius154
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9 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

Judging by the code, I think it decreases damage damping for channels in question.

Now that's very interesting. That would mean it's the same thing as "BONUS_PRONETOCHANNEL", unless there's some difference between them that you can see.

I'll think about how best to test them all.

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On 11/21/2019 at 12:07 AM, Charon117 said:

I am very much dissapointed in the variaty of rings the game drops. The only jewely I use are:

  • COCE
  • OCE
  • All SKills
  • All Dmg%

and thats pretty meager given how many other modifiers there are. I am especially missing rings that increase cast speed, attack speed and run speed. Most of the time these mods are tied to very special items, which makes substituting them before you get your desired drops pretty bad. Even in low % numbers, such items could balance out missing key items in builds before you have them, and make smoother builds until you get what you need. It would also increase the variety of useful jewely there is.

I've been reviewing feedback in anticipation of 2.3.  So you were thinking the various speed modifiers should be able to spawn on jewelry?

I was thinking about removing Chance to Halve Regeneration Time from magic and rare jewelry, because I found it irritating (similar to regen per hit) that the common strategy was to just shop for amulets with this modifier and socket it up to 100%.

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12 hours ago, Flix said:

I've been reviewing feedback in anticipation of 2.3.  So you were thinking the various speed modifiers should be able to spawn on jewelry?

I was thinking about removing Chance to Halve Regeneration Time from magic and rare jewelry, because I found it irritating (similar to regen per hit) that the common strategy was to just shop for amulets with this modifier and socket it up to 100%.

Well my oppinion is highly subjective ofcourse.

My point is just that throughout the game 90% of all jewelry is simply useless. You usually wait for that one or two kinds of modifier and then stack it up. If you are a melee fighter you usually wait for COCE and OCE, preferably both on the same item. As a magic fighter your best bet is usually specialised %dmg.

Here I have to say that I dont think halved regeneration time is a good modifier, and they drop rarely enough. I also dont think anybody should balance the game around shoppers. If you wanna play professional shopper you can, but players depending on drops shouldnt suffer from that. If you want to nerf shop strategies than nerf the shop, dont drag everything else with it.
But back to the halved regeneration time, why would anybody do that ? I dont think its a good strategy, so it doesnt need to be nerfed.

 

 

The critique here is that throughout the game the blacksmith is a better choice 90% of the time, while the jewelry should offer diversity, but doesnt.

Damage && AV: First of all, the %DMG is incredibly high, and incredibly usefull. DMG% is usually the best offensive modifier, and makes all other offensive modifiers either incredible situational, or 90% of the time a general worse choice. AV on anything is pretty useless, and thats not only because of diminishing returns, evasion, block and reflect chance, but also because COCE and OCE does what AV does, just better.

Armour% && DV: Dont get me wrong. Armour% is a BAD modifier. But its still the best defensive modifier you have available. Why is it a bad modifier ? Because first of all it only increases armour you actually have, and then only a % of it. Once you realise that armour has diminishing returns than your highly boosted armour ... means little. While the defensive options you are bad at ... stay bad. DV is better than AV in this case, moderately usefull, but then there is COCE and OCE ... so good to have, but dont invest in it.

Reg% && Crit%: So first of all, has anybody ever noticed how bad Crit% is ? I mean, not only in vanilla game with 120% damage on crit, but everywhere ? Lets say you have a 2 Crit%, for vanilla that equates to and 0.4% average increase in damage, without taking the better pierced armour into account. In other builds with 200% damage on crit 2% translates to ... 2% of average increase. With the very real chance that your summed Crit% goes over a 100 Crit%, and is worth zero. Reg% is good, as you usually want to have low regen time. Its hard to balance this, because its a direct competitor to DMG%, but at no point do I feel like taking this blacksmith mod over Dmg%.

 

 

A fundamental problem are the 5 damage types, and the corresponding armour types with it. Basically having 5 damage types means that you always can choose the damage type against mobs they dont have a resistance to, which makes a lot of modifiers like chance to disregard armour, or -armour% disregardable. On the other hand all the armour% and little absolute armour giving pieces means getting the right defenses ranges from hard to unobtainable.

Now, with all that background info, lets tackle the jewely problem.
Being grossly overshadowed by the blacksmith I think what jewelry should offer is diversity, and interesting modifiers.

  • Especially early on, I would like to see more, and more common +health mods on jewelry. Not only are +health jewely incredibly rare, they are also incredibly useless. Why do I get +275 health when I have 8200 ? Whats the point ? Do you think that will help me when the golem one shots me because I have no arcane armour ? So not only do I want to have common, magic and rare jewely to have health modifiers, but also to triple +health values on jewelry.
  • Now to skill points ... they are so freaking useless. Have you ever gotten a +1 skill point on jewelry and thought "Thats exactly what I need." ? Yes, me neither. Balancing this into the right amount is difficulty, as we can only choose natural numbers, and no fractions, but I think the basis of our argumentation should be the AllSkill modifier. How the game should feel like is that AllSkill modifiers total skill points should give 50% more skill points than a single skill point mod. So if you have +1AllSkill than a single Skill mod should give +5. This makes AllSkill still better than a specific one, but specific ones better if you really want to invest into a single skill. This would be a good point to nerf shopping, and not increase the values for bargaining on jewelry. Or remove them alltogether. What do I know.
  • Now to MS. MS mods on jewelry are pretty rare. Their values are good, but at the point you get them you have spend at least 20 hours into a character. The most common reaction to that is to simply go into the game file and crank up the speed of the player. MS not only is a very important battle attribute, but also an attribute which scales with the fun of things. So instead of forcing the player into the game files to make the game more fun for them, I would like to see common, magic and rare MS modifier, so that the player keeps playing inside of the game, instead of outside of it.
  • From a vanilla perspective, it is quite reasonable to limit the items of AS and CS, cuz of the low cap of 150%. But since EE removes the cap there is no reason to keep AS, CS mods so rare. As with MS I would argue the values of the dropping items are fine, but I would like to see common, magic and rare jewelry dropping more frequently with those modifiers.

once these points  are integrated we can think about the following ones:

  • Nerf/Change the blacksmith. Right now I walk to a blacksmith and have 80% of all mods I will ever use. That shouldnt be. The feeling of a blacksmith should be that he provides reliable low mods I can use as long as I dont have better jewelry, and then replace them as soon as I do.
    Reg% propably needs to be cranked up, or %Dmg down.
  • I dont know how the Blacksmith skill works, so I could be completely wrong here. But if we assume that we nerfed the blacksmith, then I would like to see "chance to destroy item" on removal at 0% as soon as the blacksmith art is taken, and the mastery bonus an |bonus| to the slot bonus increase.
    Conceptually I like dmimitrius approach of random modifiers on the blacksmith, but its the opposite of what we want to achieve. We want players out and hunting animals, not standing in front of a slot machine in hopes of getting three 7s in a row.
    Also if we change the blacksmith art than I would like to see a second blacksmith option for the smith to safely remove all items which is x10 more expensive than the normal smithing option.
  • Following the changes of MS, AS and CS I would also like to see a more differentiated movement for mobs, where some mobs are claerly faster than others. Maybe even an increase in MS based on difficulty.
  • I would like for reliqs to be socketable. Usually you have a lot of problems as soon as somebody uses 2 or more non-physical damage types and only 3 slots available to defend against it.
  • Following this I would like to see jewelry getting flat non-physical armour values, as half of the respective relique value. So a common ring should have half of the common relique value.
  • I would really like to see a nerf to potion spam, where you can only consume 5 health potions every 60 seconds.

 

 

Itadakimasu.

Edited by Charon117
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There is base damage and damage multiplier.

For a fighter base damage is mainly the weapon, but for a caster it is from a high combat art level.

For a caster a +allSkills/x%damage combination works nice because it boosts base damage and damage multiplier.

 

Chance to halve regeneration time works (too?) nice to boost base damage for a level 75+ caster - especially together with combat displine mastery. Only 30% of the original regeneration time, thats less than a third. But at level 75+ you want to spam spells, so either leave chance to halve at it is, or remove it completly. I would prefer spamming a slightly less powerful spell over casting a more powerful spell with pauses in between. 

Blacksmiths: at the beginning whet and such is better than most jewels. But in hell diff you really want jewelry in every socket.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Damage && AV: First of all, the %DMG is incredibly high, and incredibly usefull. DMG% is usually the best offensive modifier, and makes all other offensive modifiers either incredible situational, or 90% of the time a general worse choice.

You're right, I switched it from the Yellow to the Blue % bonus in 2.2, but the base bonus values are the same, so there's no difference.  Forgeable Damage % will be lowered by 50% in 2.3. 

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Dont get me wrong. Armour% is a BAD modifier. But its still the best defensive modifier you have available.

I take your point. The game portrays Armor % as if it is the counterpart of Damage % but it's not.  The real counterpart of Damage % is Damage Mitigation %.

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

but also because COCE and OCE does what AV does, just better.

Partly true. OCE will only reduce Evade Chance on opponents who actually have an Evade Chance to begin with, and that's not necessarily a lot of enemies.  COCE on the other hand is god-tier, there's a reason it's called "Sure Hit" in the scripts, much like Regen per Hit it lets you just bypass the entire system of Attack vs. Defense.  I will review COCE on forgeable items for 2.3

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

So first of all, has anybody ever noticed how bad Crit% is ?

I ... well yes, that was what prompted to increase critical chance in 2.2.  Are you thinking the damage itself should be higher, for example a very low chance to do something like 300% damage?

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

How the game should feel like is that AllSkill modifiers total skill points should give 50% more skill points than a single skill point mod. So if you have +1AllSkill than a single Skill mod should give +5. This makes AllSkill still better than a specific one, but specific ones better if you really want to invest into a single skill.

I find this totally reasonable. I just checked and currently the bonuses to All Skills and single Skills are... identical, which just makes no sense.

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

I would also like to see a more differentiated movement for mobs, where some mobs are claerly faster than others.

This could be done but it would be time consuming (I'd have to hit each entry in creatureinfo.txt). There are slight differences between creatures already, probably not enough to notice in most cases.

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

Maybe even an increase in MS based on difficulty.

This actually already exists in balance.txt.  Creatures are 25% faster in Niobium than Bronze.  It could of course be exaggerated, and already is slightly in Challenge Mode/Inferno.

NPC_speedfac_any = {1000,1050,1100,1175,1250},

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:

From a vanilla perspective, it is quite reasonable to limit the items of AS and CS, cuz of the low cap of 150%. But since EE removes the cap there is no reason to keep AS, CS mods so rare.

It's not removed it's just increased to 450%. This was to allow taking advantage of as many speed modifiers as desired without worrying about overcapping.  There are also skills and combat arts that improve these things and it was too easy to hit the cap IMO.  Still, if you're really hurting for speed, I'll see about adding them to forgeable items.  

4 hours ago, Charon117 said:
  • I would like for reliqs to be socketable. Usually you have a lot of problems as soon as somebody uses 2 or more non-physical damage types and only 3 slots available to defend against it.
  • Following this I would like to see jewelry getting flat non-physical armour values, as half of the respective relique value. So a common ring should have half of the common relique value.

I can't do the first, but the second is doable. One thing that could help is adding more flat non-physical resistance to actual armor equipment.

3 hours ago, chattius said:

Chance to halve regeneration time works (too?) nice to boost base damage for a level 75+ caster - especially together with combat displine mastery. Only 30% of the original regeneration time, thats less than a third. But at level 75+ you want to spam spells, so either leave chance to halve at it is, or remove it completly. I would prefer spamming a slightly less powerful spell over casting a more powerful spell with pauses in between. 

What I decided on was just moving the Chance to Halve Regeneration Time bonus from Magical-tier amulets to Rare-tier amulets instead. It is after a all a rare-tier bonus.

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1 hour ago, Flix said:

Partly true. OCE will only reduce Evade Chance on opponents who actually have an Evade Chance to begin with, and that's not necessarily a lot of enemies.

No ? As far as I know OCE takes your "chance to miss" as "chance to evade".

https://www.sacred-legends.de/effekte.html
Ausweichchance des Gegners -x%
Erhöht die eigene Trefferchance. Trefferchance = (Trefferchance (bestimmt durch Aangriffs- und Verteidigungswert) + SichererTreffer%) * (1 + AusweichenVerringern%) / (1 + Ausweichen%).

Formula says (Hitchance(AV againsr DV) + COCE%) * ((1 + OCE%) / (1 + Evasion%))

As a basic reference this means if you have 20 OCE%, and a 70% AV/DV than your final chance to hit is 0.7 * 1.2 = 84% disregarding other effects like block and reflect. I think chattius wrote a paper on COCE and OCE in this forum.

 

If we disagree we would have to ask god, I mean dimitrius.

1 hour ago, Flix said:

I ... well yes, that was what prompted to increase critical chance in 2.2.  Are you thinking the damage itself should be higher, for example a very low chance to do something like 300% damage?

I would be fond of this change, but you would need to make other changes with it. Look, I am currently at level 82 on silver on challenge mode. Strong enough to kill everything, but even though I 100% invested ALL my skills and attributes into defensive, take as many damage mitigation as I can find, crank up my armour to the utmost and invest ALL my attributes into vitality there are still boss crits that one shot me.

Unbenannt2.thumb.png.a420e010f201ac4a6255967f590ca54b.png

The Kraken overhead attack one shots me if it crits. The Crystal Boss touch does 80% damage, and is unavoidable.

The main point is you cant go over 200% damage on crit, or you put the player in risk of getting one shotted for a lot of things. And thats pretty unreasonable.

I would find it nice if the average damage of crit stays the same, but the crit% get halfed, making getting crits a special experience. So yes, 75% crit chances and increasing damage to 300% sounds good, but you have to figure other stuff out first. Like:

  • A way to deal with potion spamming. Currently you are immune to damage against anything that doesnt one shoots you.
  • I personally think the health pool is way too low. Maybe increase the health per vitality point first and foremost, and if that isnt enough look at constitution next.
  • In total I think the player should have x3 times the health he currently has, paired with a reasonable potion system.

 

1 hour ago, Flix said:

This could be done but it would be time consuming (I'd have to hit each entry in creatureinfo.txt). There are slight differences between creatures already, probably not enough to notice in most cases.

I asked you for it, but you said it was something which affected all types of creatures. If you tell me what to do, I will differentiate it myself as I walk through Ancaria.

Most MS in game is very reasonable. I just think a few changes would make some creatures a lot more pronounced than they currently are. For instance

rats could get a very large MS bonus. Rats are usually the weakest form of enemy, and do next to no damage.
spiders get a medium MS bonus. Spiders IRL are very agile and annoying. More MS makes them more annoying and thuse more pronounced.
flying bats get a medium MS bonus. They are not very strong, but their strafing movement usually completely blocks the battlefield. Making a fast strafing movement would give them character, and a certain feeling. Additionally I would make normal and elite models a lot smaller, so their weak forms dont block other creatures.
etc ...

 

1 hour ago, Flix said:

This actually already exists in balance.txt.  Creatures are 25% faster in Niobium than Bronze

Nice ! I havent seen Niob with unlocked maxSpeed so it might just be alright.

 

1 hour ago, Flix said:

Still, if you're really hurting for speed,

I am. Also the cap is pretty much symbolic. If anybody even slightly feels like some speed is getting capped he can increase it to 800% or whatever. Since the Trimmed Elite textures make the game incredibly stable there are no stability concerns tied with speed.

 

1 hour ago, Flix said:

One thing that could help is adding more flat non-physical resistance to actual armor equipment.

Yes and no. What does it help the player to have poison resisting armour and than he switches to the Christmas island. Does he then throw away the armour ? I think if jewelry has a worse flat armour increase than reliques it gives the player the choice of which armour composition he wants to settle on. It also means he constantly has to resmith his armour. Which gives more value to gold, etc ... . If you really want to add non-physical armour on armour I suggest you reserve an additional value to the current ones, which gets randomely rolled for a non-physical type. Maybe even make it reflect that in the name like "Acid Torn Torso". 

Giving jewelry non-pysical armour also increases the importance of jewelry, because they could spawn together with REALLY good modifiers, or they could spawn with REALLY bad ones, and visus verca.

 

 

Cheers :)

 

Edit: Oh yes, for EE and Addendum I suggest lowering minSpeed from 50% to 30%, while taking a second look on MS decreasing CAs. For now I suggest to half the initial value of Levins Array Paralyze to 25%. Other CAs and mods will have to be individually looked at, but I assume halfing of the initial value will be a reasonable starting point. Keep in mind that +/- MS has no diminishing returns, propably.

Also @Flix Life regeneration for Enhance ? Seriously ? GTFO and give me casting speed instead, as it is custom for a magic enhancing blacksmith art. With that Enhance might just become a good choice for casters. Maybe even pair it with AS, so that physical and casters might both find it viable, since one CA never gets boosted by both.

I also find the current COCE and OCE values completely reasonable. AV and DV are bad, but they are bad by design, there is nothing you can do about that. They are also the base values of where all calculations start, so its not unreasonable that they are bad.

Edited by Charon117
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44 minutes ago, Charon117 said:

A way to deal with potion spamming. Currently you are immune to damage against anything that doesnt one shoots you.

OK let's brainstorm. You said the increased potion cooldown alone doesn't seem to do much, but what if the long cooldown was paired with a nerf to the amount healed by each drink?  I could for example make the amount healed by a small health potion 20%, a medium one 40%, and a big one 60%.

I think these lines in balance.txt might help with adjusting the Vitality attribute:

  LifeAttribut = 25,
  LifeBase = 130,
  LifeStep = 19,

Constitution's effect could be altered in creatures.txt

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