chattius 2,522 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 Yes, x%LL was so easy. You could place a x% life leech polearm with 2 sockets in a slot, socket it two rings with a sure hit and enemy can't evade combination and every second strike hit. For a caster build. Disease for dryad could be modified for boss killing:hit the boss, leave and 10 seconds later it was dead. I did a joke in old german forum that x%LL should be changed. It should be changed so that it would be like blood doping. Each successful hit boosts attack speed by 10%. But at speed 180 you get a heart attack ;) 1 Link to comment
gogoblender 3,069 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, chattius said: Yes, x%LL was so easy. You could place a x% life leech polearm with 2 sockets in a slot, socket it two rings with a sure hit and enemy can't evade combination and every second strike hit. For a caster build. Disease for dryad could be modified for boss killing:hit the boss, leave and 10 seconds later it was dead. I did a joke in old german forum that x%LL should be changed. It should be changed so that it would be like blood doping. Each successful hit boosts attack speed by 10%. But at speed 180 you get a heart attack ;) gogo Link to comment
Flix 5,116 Posted February 28, 2020 Author Share Posted February 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Charon117 said: If LL% would work on the remaining hp it would make the game infinitely more reasonable. I think that's why it's bugged. Instead of dealing damage based on the opponent's current health, it deals damage based on the opponent's maximum health. So no matter how much health the opponent has, you can always kill it with the same number of hits. Let's say you have LL 10%, you can kill any opponent in 10 hits at most. 2 hours ago, Charon117 said: I also had a balance request to triple "Chance to ban undead" modifier. I'll see what I can do. It seems a pointless modifier when Potions of Undead Death are readily available. I'll see if I can push the values close to a guaranteed chance to banish. Will do the same for Absorption Warding Energy (Opponent) -X%. Link to comment
dimitrius154 612 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, Flix said: I think that's why it's bugged. Instead of dealing damage based on the opponent's current health, it deals damage based on the opponent's maximum health. Oh, really? Interesting. I'm adding the issue to my to-do list. Link to comment
Charon117 50 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, Flix said: I'll see what I can do. It seems a pointless modifier when Potions of Undead Death are readily available. I'll see if I can push the values close to a guaranteed chance to banish. Will do the same for Absorption Warding Energy (Opponent) -X%. Well yes, but you could have similar thoughts with all potions: 1. Why life regeneration when full health is just a few space presses away ? 2. Why even bother with DoT% when green health potions are just a few clicks away. 3. Why bother with "Chance to banish Undead" when you have purple potions ? 4. Why bother with decreased regeneration time, when you have yellow potions ? 5. Why bother with +XP% when you have blue potions ? I see potions as a general problem in Sacred 2. The main point is that I dont want to "constantly remember" to drink purple, blue, yellow and green potions. This is why I have -Reg%, -DoT%,, and "Banish Undead" modifiers on my builds. All potions have the same visual effect, there is no buff indication of what kind of buff is present at the moment. Add that to the terrible status bar delay and you seriously, 100%ly dont know what is going on at each moment. Imagine that the hp bar would update within one frame, imagine if you would have buff icons, imagine those icons would update within one frame as well ... it would be utopia. Link to comment
dimitrius154 612 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Charon117 said: I see potions as a general problem in Sacred 2. The issues are, that potion drops are way to frequent and potions are way too cheap in shops. Once those two poor choices are corrected, the problem is gone. 8 minutes ago, Charon117 said: Imagine that the hp bar would update within one frame, imagine if you would have buff icons, imagine those icons would update within one frame as well ... it would be utopia. Not gonna happen. The GUI elements are tied into libsigc-2.0.17.dll. Hell knows, how this one works. Link to comment
Androdion 875 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 35 minutes ago, dimitrius154 said: Oh, really? Interesting. I'm adding the issue to my to-do list. Yep, with %LL the damage dealt through leeching is always the same no matter how far gone the mob's HP is. Link to comment
jwiz 68 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 53 minutes ago, dimitrius154 said: The issues are, that potion drops are way to frequent and potions are way too cheap in shops. Once those two poor choices are corrected, the problem is gone. Not really, the main problem with Sacred 2 is that many game mechanics aren't all that well thought through. You just need a quite high health potion drop rate and fairly cheap buying prices, because you cannot get any DURING a fight esp. a boss fight, so you simply have to stack up beforehand. If there were more viable and consistent methods to get health back during a fight, like craft +LL (not %LL calculated on max. enemy health) on gear or weapons, you could significantly reduce health potions drops, otherwise not. Link to comment
Androdion 875 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 You can socket +LL per hit, +HP regen, master Constitution for in-combat HP regen, raise Vitality for higher HP bonus, use energy shields on certain characters, use block and reflect modifiers... I mean, it's not like there's any shortage of options there. So the higher in level you are the less health pots you should be consuming, and if that's not the case then you're doing something wrong. If anything Sacred 2 presents you with too many different ways of doing the same thing so faulting the game's mechanics is kind of awkward to be honest. 1 Link to comment
Charon117 50 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 21 minutes ago, Androdion said: You can socket +LL per hit, +HP regen, master Constitution for in-combat HP regen, raise Vitality for higher HP bonus, use energy shields on certain characters, use block and reflect modifiers... I mean, it's not like there's any shortage of options there. So the higher in level you are the less health pots you should be consuming, and if that's not the case then you're doing something wrong. If anything Sacred 2 presents you with too many different ways of doing the same thing so faulting the game's mechanics is kind of awkward to be honest. I agree. Something we also might forget is that health potions drastically heal less hp the higher the difficulty goes. We all just dont spend enough time on Niobium to appreciate that. And we all dont spend enough time on Niobium because ... there is nothing left to do there. The reason why we make a build is to see if we can beat the content in the game, in order to reach a higher difficulty level, in order to get better loot ... to reach a higher difficulty level. But in Niobium there is nothing higher to reach. For this reason we dont spend a lot of time in Niobium. How to remedy that ? Link to comment
Androdion 875 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 That's actually a very good question! The scaling challenge suddenly disappears, and once you can beat the campaign in Niob you can do pretty much anything in the game, so you're just left with more grind (for the fourth, maybe fifth, time). I wish I had an answer to that but sadly I don't. Link to comment
Charon117 50 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 So a few questions before we get started with 2.3: >All combat arts which debuff opponent armor now do so in percentages rather than flat values. Did you change the values for the CA then ? A level 50 Paralyzing dread removes 100% of physical armour ? And the german tooltip for it is wrong. It says armour (plural) in 2.2. >Enemy Speed now scales higher per difficulty level, up to +60% at Niobium difficulty (+80% in Challenge mode). Thats the change I disagree with. When I said I wanted enemies to be faster I meant I wanted more diversity, not just everbody on crack. On the other hand my movement speed mod hasnt been released yet, so we can talk after that. I forgot, is the Light Path bug with Numin... thingy fixed ? 22 minutes ago, Androdion said: I wish I had an answer to that but sadly I don't. One of the things I have been thinking about would be an Indigo Plateau style challenge. After the main story boss has been defeated the player could be "invited" to a challenge area, where the player has to sequentially beat one challenge after the other, without teleports as checkpoints or town visits. I also would like to have bosses with special strenghts and weaknesses, modeled after the 7 main chars in the game. Red: ... ... ... ... Link to comment
Flix 5,116 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 21 minutes ago, Charon117 said: Did you change the values for the CA then ? A level 50 Paralyzing dread removes 100% of physical armour ? And the german tooltip for it is wrong. It says armour (plural) in 2.2. These values deliver diminishing returns, so will never reduce opponent armor, attack, or defense to "0." I've only put the exact numerical values in the English tooltips. That's just laziness on my part - I always dread editing all the localizations. But know that in most cases I've reduced the scripted numbers by a factor of 10, so for example 100 + 50 per level armor reduction is now 10% + 5% per level reduction. 21 minutes ago, Charon117 said: Thats the change I disagree with. Give it try and see what you think. I found that by increasing the speed cap to 450%, the player was outstripping all enemies in terms of speed. They could outrun any opponent. I've spent some time with this change to enemy speed and really enjoy it. Also please remember that not all enemy speed is equal. 2.3 doesn't just bring every enemy to an even 80%,; the boost is applied to whatever their various base movement speed is. I.e., turtles still plod along compared to bats (actually bats may be a bad example - I've only made them small and fast like you suggested in upcoming 2.4), but there are still variations. I'm happy to introduce more variation in addition to the overall speed increase, if you list some examples of what should be slower/faster, or I can wait and integrate your mod with EE. 21 minutes ago, Charon117 said: I forgot, is the Light Path bug with Numin... thingy fixed ? I'm drawing a blank here, sorry. 1 Link to comment
Flix 5,116 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 @Charon117 I know you don't test, but would you consider installing the latest 2.4 build (attached) since you are about to start a new difficulty playthrough? It's just the updated scripts folder for the Enhanced Spells version, since you play that module. If you use it, just apply to 2.3 like a patch. Change log included. S2 EE 2.4 Test.zip Link to comment
dimitrius154 612 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I've checked the Dryad 'Sininster Predator' buff. Despite the blueprint.txt spez2 supposedly covering a single SUBFAM for "bb_attackspeed_weapon_dist" and "bb_AW_rel_dist", the buff does affect ALL ranged weapon types, throwing included. So there's no need to fix it. Link to comment
Charon117 50 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 9 hours ago, Flix said: I'm drawing a blank here, sorry. I heard the Inquisitor boss in the Great Wasteland was unbeatable ? Thats why you have to fight him 2 times in the Dark Path ? Something CP introduced ? 8 hours ago, Flix said: I know you don't test, but would you consider installing the latest 2.4 build (attached) since you are about to start a new difficulty playthrough? That goes without saying. Link to comment
dimitrius154 612 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Charon117 said: Thats why you have to fight him 2 times in the Dark Path ? Something CP introduced ? Not the CP, the Addendum did. That allows the DS characters to kill him(he'd die by script in vanilla, denying the kill, the experience and the loot). Link to comment
Popular Post SANGEL 13 Posted February 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 29, 2020 @Flix @dimitrius154 @Charon117 @chattius @gogoblender @Androdion There are some major mechanics of sacred2 that I think need to be improved or adapted to modern ARPG standards. The first thing is sets. I mentioned this one earlier. Sets in sacred2 do not offer great end_game set bonuses. There are lots of focus on plus this or that aspect of skills or combat arts, but you can get those benefits with jewelry. You gonna feel a lot more powerful with modifiers like double hit, deep wounds,opponent's level for deathblow, points based leech and stun for melee. As for spell builds, + that aspect of damage and increased combat art range is much more useful in practice. Unfortunately, there are lots of modifiers for various sorts of cooldown, but very little for the hardcore damage. I think we should have modifiers like + that aspect of dmg(400-600%), increase combat art range, better chance to trigger secondary effects. Lots of weapons have repetitive designs, I'll touch on this one some other day. The next thing is combat arts, there are not so many combat arts(spells) for your character, yet lots of them are irrelevant endgame. Take seraphim for example, baneful smite&flaring nova is like a joke to radiant pillar in the end_game. You can pile up on the damage with more pillars pretty quickly. Whereas baneful smite and flaring nova can neither compete on range nor efficiency. I suggest giving the last modifier of baneful smite 100% chance to chain more enemies(ideally 5-6),significantly increase cast range, while giving flaring nova better damage scaling end_game.(Moving this spell to celestial while the guardian to tech.) Can we just give cleansing brilliance some + magic damge and spell intensity for relevance, it has pretty cool animation though. We definitely need some new skills for revered technology. Divine protection and warding energy seem like pretty repetitive design and should be merged into one somehow. We should add in some of our own creation to make rev_tech feels actually techy. Another thing I observed while playing is that combat arts like b_vault and s_step are really good for map navigation. Maybe we could have this type of combat art for dragon mage, inquisitor, temple guardian too? BTW, I really wish assailing somersault don't have to target enemies and could just be used for transportation and offense alike. This is just for seraphim, there are plenty of room for changes for other heros, we'll discuss them later. Finally We should maybe integrate something like boss_arena mod for the end_game too? We could have a crucible with enough space like that of the mount island. still chewing over this one though. 1 1 Link to comment
Androdion 875 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I'm going to sound like the old guy in the room, but why do you think that the game should be adapted to modern standards at all? I get what you're saying but to me it seems like your idea is to change Sacred 2 into something it is not. Sorry mate but I can't agree with an extended normalisation on a peculiar old school game to adapt to the modern standards of what a game of this type should be. I for one like the idea that things are different and diverse, and if I want something more in line with modern times then there's also plenty of that out there. Also I think you're obsessing with the endgame, which let me tell you isn't all that hard if your build has a decent level of progression. Which between the huge amount of quests and the endless grind should be really easy to accomplish. Not all CAs are ubber powerful nor should they be, but you may want to think of some things as early game material and then scratch them for later on. As an example of that some CAs and modifiers start out awesome and then get less and less powerful over time. But even then and with a massive investment into skills, attributes and gear you can still turn a pretty useless CA into a game changer. I mean, just look at the amount of melee HE guides there are! There's even a guide to use Shadow Step as your main killing art, so that's that. As for the gear vs set bonuses, most of what you say should be on sets can also be present via jewellery. I also think you're undervaluing the power of some modifiers a bit too much since they can be total game breakers. Take deathblow as an example. I built a tri-aspect dual-wield Inquisitor with stashed gear and a ladder of dedicated shoppers to make it as powerful as it could be. By char levels 50-60 I already had over 70% in deathblow and so many +All Skills that even skills with one hard point would be accountable. And suddenly everything was butter, I'd just slap a Clustering Maelstrom/Ruthless Mutilation combo followed by a Ruthless Mutilation/Callous Execution combo after rounding up all the mobs and bam. It sounded and looked as close to a blowpipe Dryad build as it could be. So as quickly as that I could just kill everything in a couple of hits. So like I said, some modifiers are very powerful and shouldn't be as easy to amount as others. That's why Kira's Wall never drops and never should drop, it's just too powerful and you can use it all the way to the endgame without needing to upgrade it. In the same respect once you can get certain modifiers running you can just keep them running and you're done. Sacred 2 gives you endless ways to do the same thing, that's its charm. 1 Link to comment
gogoblender 3,069 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 16 minutes ago, Androdion said: I'm going to sound like the old guy in the room, but why do you think that the game should be adapted to modern standards at all? I get what you're saying but to me it seems like your idea is to change Sacred 2 into something it is not. Sorry mate but I can't agree with an extended normalisation on a peculiar old school game to adapt to the modern standards of what a game of this type should be. I for one like the idea that things are different and diverse, and if I want something more in line with modern times then there's also plenty of that out there. Also I think you're obsessing with the endgame, which let me tell you isn't all that hard if your build has a decent level of progression. Which between the huge amount of quests and the endless grind should be really easy to accomplish. Not all CAs are ubber powerful nor should they be, but you may want to think of some things as early game material and then scratch them for later on. As an example of that some CAs and modifiers start out awesome and then get less and less powerful over time. But even then and with a massive investment into skills, attributes and gear you can still turn a pretty useless CA into a game changer. I mean, just look at the amount of melee HE guides there are! There's even a guide to use Shadow Step as your main killing art, so that's that. As for the gear vs set bonuses, most of what you say should be on sets can also be present via jewellery. I also think you're undervaluing the power of some modifiers a bit too much since they can be total game breakers. Take deathblow as an example. I built a tri-aspect dual-wield Inquisitor with stashed gear and a ladder of dedicated shoppers to make it as powerful as it could be. By char levels 50-60 I already had over 70% in deathblow and so many +All Skills that even skills with one hard point would be accountable. And suddenly everything was butter, I'd just slap a Clustering Maelstrom/Ruthless Mutilation combo followed by a Ruthless Mutilation/Callous Execution combo after rounding up all the mobs and bam. It sounded and looked as close to a blowpipe Dryad build as it could be. So as quickly as that I could just kill everything in a couple of hits. So like I said, some modifiers are very powerful and shouldn't be as easy to amount as others. That's why Kira's Wall never drops and never should drop, it's just too powerful and you can use it all the way to the endgame without needing to upgrade it. In the same respect once you can get certain modifiers running you can just keep them running and you're done. Sacred 2 gives you endless ways to do the same thing, that's its charm. I like this post. I think you've hit the soul of this game. From Sacred's DNA coming from Underworld and then in Sacred 2...it was always about (for me anyway) about just making builds to see how they moved, how stuff would die and how they sounded. For a stand up game these devs packed in so many ways to get to the endgame... personal enjoyment from knowing there was so many ways to enjoy that road to where you just wanted to build another build. That whooshing noise like milk being sucked from a straw from life leech... when this game first came out that sound was MASSIVE loud... and i just wanted to play because of it...plus the effect visual...but within days the devs made it to what it is today because (after me complaining in the forum :P) that the sound was causing crashes and so they had to nerf it. There's so many reasons why people want to play this game all the way to end, and the variety is Sacred's strength. gogo Link to comment
SANGEL 13 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 @gogoblender @Androdion Sorry if I sound like someone that's gonna change the original sacred2 for you guys..... My opinions are more focused on sacred2 ENHANCED... I think that there should be a mod that focus on fixing bugs and QOL that gives a more vanilla taste of what sacred2 is like, community patch should cater to those audiances. The line............................. As far as sacred2 enhanced is concerned, this one is for more progressive folks, we've already nerfed damage mitigation, we added in so many different skills, Kira's Wall has a meager 10% damage mitigation. (But I think reducing damage mitigation is a good move) We might as well roll up our sleeves and change for the better. I don't think we have double hit, high percentage deep wounds, high magical damage(like 400-600% plus), high percentage combat art range for sets. The thing is, ascaron went bankrupt and were under insane crunch at the time, lots of stuff are not properly balanced because the company went under. There are lots of ideas not tested enough and lots of hidden stuffs that did not come into fruition Sets don't have an identity in sacred2, most of the time, the mutation set piece wins simply because it has more sockets. I guess if we stand on different sides of the line, both of our worlds are fine, and come on guys, this is sacred2 MOD, not sacred2 official..... 1 Link to comment
Flix 5,116 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 5 hours ago, Charon117 said: I heard the Inquisitor boss in the Great Wasteland was unbeatable ? Thats why you have to fight him 2 times in the Dark Path ? Something CP introduced ? Like Dmitriy said, in the vanilla game, you fight the Grand Inquisitor, then right when he's about to die, he delivers his final monologue, and he's killed by a script. So he doesn't count as a player kill, I.e., you never see him in the Last Opponent Window or get the loot, xp, etc. In EE, I've included Dmitriy's change, which transforms Nimonuil back into a killable enemy after his monologue. Furthermore, I've extended this script change to the Light Path quest as well. Link to comment
Androdion 875 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Fair enough SANGEL, you make a valid point about these being potential changes for a mod. I just find it weird when people sometimes talk about changing core features of the game, that's all. I think double hits was bugged somehow, not sure if the guys were able to make it work. Deep wounds can be increased via Damage Lore and in that respect high spell damage can also be raised via Ancient Magic (which also drops resistances on top of that). The thing is that besides modifiers on gear many skills act like modifiers themselves in this game, so accounting for that you can have a proper go at most if not all of what you mention. Sure, you'd have to sacrifice skill slots, but again, core mechanics. As for the sets being "upgraded" I actually like the idea. I just think the idea needs some proper tuning. Maybe the sets' themes could be more diversified and further explored/expanded somehow. Not sure how but the idea remains. Link to comment
Flix 5,116 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 8 hours ago, dimitrius154 said: I've checked the Dryad 'Sininster Predator' buff. Despite the blueprint.txt spez2 supposedly covering a single SUBFAM for "bb_attackspeed_weapon_dist" and "bb_AW_rel_dist", the buff does affect ALL ranged weapon types, throwing included. So there's no need to fix it. But how? Are you sure it's not just affecting all weapon types? Link to comment
Charon117 50 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) @Flix If you integrate the unfinished Diverse Movement Speed mod into 2.4, than I could start playing 2.4 before I design a proper partial code line feature in the Modmerge System. So if you like the idea and implement it 1:1 I could play 2.4 and give the Diverse Movement Speed mod more time to mature. Here is the creatureinfo.txt in the current Modmerge format. People who would apply this would also overwrite entries with EE 2.2 data. The file contains all concrete ids I changed, in the order stated. For the people who dont look into the file, the proposed changes are: Quote --// rat units flat MS increase of 50 --// spider units flat MS increase of 50 --// wolf units flat MS increase of 20, excluding werewolfs and wolfriders --// giantbat units flat MS increase of 50 Edit: Also, did you cut the logic box of the 2 giantbat entries by 25% ? I know you said you did, just checking. Edited February 29, 2020 by Charon117 Link to comment
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