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gogoblender

ReSpec in UnBended - Yay or Nay?

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gogoblender    1,465

I think gogo was asking about whether a system could exist where respec is not applicable is even possible. Not from a technical standpoint, but from a conceptual one.

 

 

This

 

:thumbsup:

 

gogo

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Veracious    207

 

 

I dont understand why the devs are so against it,

It's because most of the general community here, from the beginning is from Sacred Underworld and Sacred 2.

 

Both those games had no respec, which was actually a big part of the HC community way back in the day.

 

Because of no respec and HC, it made for a much harder gaming experience, and every choice was valuable. It's why the German Devs don't want it, and most of us here from that original forum from Sacred International Forum are coming from that same background, where no respec and an absolute HC game is a part of our community experience.

When the game comes out, and people are in HC servers, I think people here are looking for a valuable long term commitment and game.

 

That's why trying to find a balance tween no respec, which was what Sacred series has in it's blood, or something new, a partial or compensatory respec, is being sought.

 

:)

 

gogo

In path of exile you can find orbs of regret which allow you to refund one passive node. A very small and hard to amass respec option which hardly ruins hardcore but allows people to correct a small mistake without starting from the beginning. An awesome alternative to full specs.

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gogoblender    1,465

In path of exile you can find orbs of regret which allow you to refund one passive node. A very small and hard to amass respec option which hardly ruins hardcore but allows people to correct a small mistake without starting from the beginning. An awesome alternative to full specs.

 

 

This I like

 

:)

 

gogo

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Ironwill    134

They made the right decision.
Diablo 2 didnt allow respecs,while it is possible in Diablo 3.The difference is huge,it greatly reduces the meaning of building a character and reduce replaying potential of the game.I mean if you decided to be a doctor,you can't become an engineer by switching your diploma,you have to start over.

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Knuckles    846

I am not a fan of respec but I understand it's appeal to many players. Some of us may have very limited playing time. Where the idea of having to remake a character you just spent 50 hours on, is a game-breaker for you. Maybe you just want to invest a point or two in a particular skill and try it out on their character before committing to it. Heck, maybe you simply mis-clicked.

 

I wouldn't mind a system where each subsequent skill repsec would cost more. The first few would be relatively cheap, but after a while respeccing would become cost prohibitive.

 

So minor tweaking wouldn't be an issue but if you wanted a major overhaul you better start saving

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gogoblender    1,465

They made the right decision.

Diablo 2 didnt allow respecs,while it is possible in Diablo 3.The difference is huge,it greatly reduces the meaning of building a character and reduce replaying potential of the game.I mean if you decided to be a doctor,you can't become an engineer by switching your diploma,you have to start over.

 

Yes...the long term vision of a "game play' ...versus the much bally hooed and touted, consume consume consume. I actually am intimate with both. Sacred was pretty much my first real online game, and the kind of "worth" and pain I received from playing it in HC with no respec got me to love all the time I had to put into it, while giving tremendous value to my choice. I remember spending what seemed like hours, HOURS!!!, :oooo: agonizing over decisions like which CA to use and which where to place those precious skill points!

 

:4rofl:

 

gogo

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gogoblender    1,465

I am not a fan of respec but I understand it's appeal to many players. Some of us may have very limited playing time. Where the idea of having to remake a character you just spent 50 hours on, is a game-breaker for you. Maybe you just want to invest a point or two in a particular skill and try it out on their character before committing to it. Heck, maybe you simply mis-clicked.

 

I wouldn't mind a system where each subsequent skill repsec would cost more. The first few would be relatively cheap, but after a while respeccing would become cost prohibitive.

 

So minor tweaking wouldn't be an issue but if you wanted a major overhaul you better start saving

 

I was wholly against ReSpec... I remember being absolutely furious when I discovered there were peeps in communities being vociferous about the right to, what I called then, Cheating! :4rofl: And then I also remember reading posts about families with kids, less play time than before, two jobs, more kids... and then got to thinking that perhaps there could be compromise, a way to increase accessibility to more...

 

then again, if you want to make the world's best game, why compromise, if you're a producing artist, on any piece of art you make right?

 

here's where I duck tomatoes

 

:tease:

 

gogo

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Knuckles    846

Here's a way to do it. In Grim Dawn if I mis-click while in the Skill Tree page I can simply undo points. So misclicking could be solved that way.

 

But once points are assigned, each time your character levels while you have that skill, that skill becomes more expensive to respec. Let's say it doubles per level just to make the math easy in my example

 

Let's say you decide to try the Skill: Gogo's Glyph of Destruction. You pick it when your character is level 10

At level 11 it will cost 100 gold to remove points

At level 12 it's 200 gold

At level 15 it's 1600 gold

After 10 levels it would be 512,000 gold

 

Now obviously there would have to be a gold cap at some point. But this would allow you to try out a skill for a few levels to see if you like it and and fits your character development. If you decide it's not for you the price would be minimal. Now after several levels you decide that your character wants to go in a completely different direction it is going to be very expensive

 

To me this would satisfy both groups, the ones for and the ones against respeccing. You get some flexibility to try out different skills without seriously stunting your character growth but also would get the permanence of your decisions once you played it with those skills for awhile

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gogoblender    1,465

well -thought out. Specially the part about gogo's glyph of destruction ^^

The way it costs more when it means more, is good, and would make this something that's got a pain cost

 

:)

 

gogo

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Veracious    207

I guess the result would be dependent on whether the points per level were being assigned to a combat skill or an augmenting skill. If its a skill tree like Diablo then I can see why people wouldn't want respec. But for trees like sacred or path of exile earning a single point here and there to fix mistakes isn't unreasonable. I'm sure they'll find a middle ground.

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Ironwill    134

I guess the result would be dependent on whether the points per level were being assigned to a combat skill or an augmenting skill. If its a skill tree like Diablo then I can see why people wouldn't want respec. But for trees like sacred or path of exile earning a single point here and there to fix mistakes isn't unreasonable. I'm sure they'll find a middle ground.

There is a nice feature in dota 2 which allows you to sell the item you bought for full price within 10 seconds(originally 50%).That could be another scenario too.

Edited by Ironwill

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SevPOOTS    89

There is a nice feature in dota 2 which allows you to sell the item you bought for full price within 10 seconds(originally 50%).That could be another scenario too.

Wow, did not know about that. Well, 10 seconds is too fast and you might end up buying the item a second time due to time pressure lols

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Ironwill    134

Wow, did not know about that. Well, 10 seconds is too fast and you might end up buying the item a second time due to time pressure lols

that happens if you are carrying too much money on yourself which is a very rare thing

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claudius    80

Some games like titan quest I liked respec. But for unbended I want no respec. The reason is the same reason I play hard core. It makes the choices more of an adrenaline rush. It is a MONUMENTAL choice. Just like one death is START AGAIN...

And I used to be a strong critic about how vane people were about hardcore as one can see on my posts (early on) in sacred international forum (SIF)...

If I have a respecable build who gives a 'fecal matter' what skills I choose? That means no adrenaline. It is similar to HC (hard core). The pain of losing a high level hardcore character is really an experience. "My God why have you forsaken me!!" That's what I say as the lifeless toon lies legs akimbo. But then as hope springs eternal I make a new better character.

In conclusion respec = no adrenaline

I like it for some games but I like TQ (titan quest) for different reasons than the previous games that those ascaron dudes made. (I won't even mention the intellectual property that shall not be mentioned.)

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claudius    80

I have an idea! :o :o :o What if you lose the survival bonus when you respec!! Genius if I do say so myself. Send to the developers!

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chattius    734

If allowing a respec it should be limited and contain some punishment.

 

For example if Unbended has something like a god/survival bonus which affects enemies and magic find:

First respec sets survival bonus to 0 and sets the maximal possible survival bonus from 100 to 95.

Second sets to 0 and maximum possible is 85.

Third its only 70.

Fourth it is only 50.

Fifth and all follow up it is only 25.

 

I would name it something like god bonus. The gods gets angry if you are not accepting the body the gods gave to you. You loose all the stat boni from surviving.

And the god of war thinks you are not a worthy warrior and stops sending stronger enemies to you. Cap on how high the enemies can be above you depending on god bonus.

This would have the advantage that people who just sniff into the game or are unexperienced players can respec without much loss. They die a lot anyway and won't have a high survival bonus. Experienced players who want to reach really high levels will probably want the perfect character and don't want to loose the max god bonus or at least stay at 95.

---

Perhaps an even more complex god system for a future patch?

The god of healing gets angry if you respec from healing to fighting and you will receive penalties with all heal potions, heal spells.

Warrior god gets angry if forgetting weapon based stuff, ...

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gogoblender    1,465

But for unbended I want no respec. ... It makes the choices more of an adrenaline rush.

This, nailed it

You can't get this kind of an adrenaline rush when you're playing something where the choices mean nothing.

It's kind of like a savings account, and then finally getting to spend your money

It's a creative process, you build, choose carefully, and get rewarded

 

:)

 

gogo

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lujate    375

I'm still in favor of no respec, but I've come up with a couple of ideas that might split the difference. Note that these would be fundamental to the skill system, not retrofit addons, and the ideas are very rough.

 

1. In Sacred 2, you unlocked 10 skills (at set levels) and earned a number of skill points every level. Rather than giving out skills, they could be purchased with skill points. That way, if you picked a bad skill you could just save up and buy a different one. The biggest problem here would be balancing the value of the skill points. You would want to ensure that the skill points spent on buying a new skill wouldn't greatly outweigh those same points spent to upgrade existing skill(s).

 

2. Rather than awarding skills and skill points, skills could be earned through playing (kind of like Oblivion). Unused skills would decay. To change skills, just change how you play. It would have to make sure you couldn't AFK farm skills. Also, there are probably some skills that wouldn't fit this model.

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gogoblender    1,465

 

 

2. Rather than awarding skills and skill points, skills could be earned through playing (kind of like Oblivion). Unused skills would decay. To change skills, just change how you play. It would have to make sure you couldn't AFK farm skills. Also, there are probably some skills that wouldn't fit this model.

I love the idea of acquiring skills and profieiency's through playing... I as well love the idea of us allotting them... has it ever been done in a game before where both were done during the course of a player's life time?

 

:)

gogo

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KJnewBEE    18

ok, I've have read some of the post, some wants it while most dont like it, how about this, make it a quest? so everyone have a choice, to do it or not to do it, and make it once only, only in silver? or make it extrimely hard like you need to finish all quest in your current difficulty, I personaly dont like reskilling, :) just sharing what is in my mind....

 

edit:

like chattius said, there should be a punishment, I like that idea.

Edited by KJnewBEE
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Shadout    8

I have an idea! :o :o :o What if you lose the survival bonus when you respec! Genius if I do say so myself. Send to the developers!

Yeah, that is the respec I would like as well.

Possible to respec, but at a very high cost. High enough that you might consider if rerolling a new character is acctually better.

 

I dont like totally free respeccing (like in diablo 3 for example), but likewise, no ability to respec at all is also bad.

As an absolute minimum, respecs should be given with balance patches.

 

Edited by Shadout
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Shadout    8

 

But for unbended I want no respec. ... It makes the choices more of an adrenaline rush.

It's a creative process, you build, choose carefully, and get rewarded

Sure. Problem is planning only goes so far. Sometimes skills do something else than what they seem to do from the description. Sometimes the game changes over time to make the perfectly planned build less valid (like if at level 200 out of nowhere all enemies suddenly becomes immune to cold dmg). Sometimes a patch throws all previous choices out of the window.

The thrill of planning goes away if the game makes planning impossible.

Which is okay for those of us who might want to test the different skills over multiple characters, slowly figuring out what works and what does not. But for most people it is not. It ought to be possible to plan out a build without having to read a wiki to see how skills really works (and not what the tooltip says), and without fear of the choice being invalidated by a later patch.

Respeccing should be rare enough that planning is required. But it should be possible to come up with something more reasonable than "make a new character", for those cases where the plan is destroyed by outside influence (whether that is patches, bad tooltips, unpredictable end-game changes or whatever).

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gogoblender    1,465

 

I have an idea! :o :o :o What if you lose the survival bonus when you respec! Genius if I do say so myself. Send to the developers!

Yeah, that is the respec I would like as well.

Possible to respec, but at a very high cost.

This is where I stand with this as well...and I like what you had to say about Diablo 3 where the respecs were offered for free and.. it changed the game for me, and I ended up liking it less than Sacred

 

:)

 

gogo

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Miquin1    19

Been thinking on this more and maybe I'm thinking of this in the wrong context....Ysne really clued me in with chronic restartitis-mulitple characters

 

I too was afflicted with this in both Sacred's but never D3. Sometimes it's the journey and not the end that brings us pleasure. I didn't mind building a character that was flawed and I couldn't fix easily...it became a challenge to me.. Sometimes there was just no saving it or I thought of a better way to do certain aspect and thus the journey would start again from the beginning.

 

I restarted sooooo many times I lost count. But only got 1 character in both S1 and Sacred 2 to max level. I enjoyed tinkering with builds and starting over. But with re-skilling I no longer have to start over and can 'fix' my character within minutes and I'm just that much closer to the end game. No need to restart, no need to make another character.

 

But I think for me the journey was the more important part of the game, the destination never mattered :D

 

This totally resonates with me. I just mess about and explore....and I mean that in both the game world and the character building aspect. In my very early days, I had no idea that too many runes would be a detriment.

 

Respecing brings convenience, sure...and as was brought up by Flix, having that convenience could just as easily encourage experimentation because you know if you completely broke a character, you could fix it straight away.

 

I guess my real problem with the ability to Re-Spec is that it makes the game fundamentally easier. I like the idea that I have to learn at least a bit about the game's mechanics --- so that when I DO experiment, I can get better ideas to function within the scope of the game. Not having an easy way out will tend to focus your ideas and it creates it's own challenges like trying to make a mage-type class into a viable tank.

 

The downside is that it will limit the appeal of the game. There are lots of people who will find having the potential to make a really bad build somewhat intimidating. For them, the idea of a Re-Spec is great because it gives them some leeway to make mistakes early on without feeling like they are being punished for being ignorant of the game. But once you go down that route, what really makes that High Elf you've been playing feel like it's especially yours?

 

Ultimately I think that this distinctive quality of being able to make a bad build that you have to live with.....this aspect of having to learn the ins and outs of the game that I find so appealing...are what drive a long term dedication among a fan base. Sure, it means you put off some people early on...but a very dedicated fan base is good because so long as you deliver the experiences they find compelling, you'll keep them and add more over time.

 

So, yeah, I would much prefer that there be no Re-Spec in Unbended. It just appeals to me so much more that way.

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Logen Schok    7

I think the problem this forum has is everyone is so focused on the HC experience and having some insane punishments for messing up a characters build. From my experience of playing games, I typically don't replay them; I do all the side quests (I really do mean all of them) with a character I think I'll like and finish the game wholly, sometimes on a normal difficulty, sometimes on a harder difficulty depending on the game/genre/how much I like it.

 

I think there should be re-specs, but not in the way your thinking folks. Instead of a stupid hard quest or absurd amount of money (which will probably be hacked anyhow), how about having it on a timer.

 

Lets say you're level 10 and playing the Gambler, you put some points into having a more efficient skill tree (don't know if I'm doing this right) "Gogo's Cards of Ascension". The moment you click "accept" or dock your points in, you have a range of time (10 minutes? 30 minutes?) to play with the skills you just put in and if you level up again or the time passes the mark you are locked in (this also limits the potential to respect later since you can only redact the points your given for the level). This would only work on the level points too, if Unbended is going to use those Combat Arts skill books from mobs method, you're screwed if you mess that up.

 

It doesn't have to be for every level either; every 5 levels early on and then 10 and eventually never; gradually you'll make the character you want and there are still chances for messing up and having to reroll. (The method in which levels are allowed a respec can of course change, but I can tell people here would be extra piffed-off if it was available every level and I think I would be too).

 

:Thinking: I'm obviously in the minority here about respecing, but I play solo most of the time anyways. I understand the concept everyone brings up on why it should not happen, but you people need to take into consideration the "peasants" of real life. Putting 300-500 hours into a game and then having to replay it all again because that Gambler you made ends up playing like crap is a surefire way to put people off the game. Sure you can argue "well, this game will just be for the HC folks anyway", but lets be realistic, it's expensive to make games nowadays and they need to sell.

More thoughts: If playing on a closed HC server have the option to disable respecting entirely, it'll never affect you and you'll never notice it. More options are always better than no options.

Edited by Logen Schok
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