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Dual Staff Wielding


Dual-Wielding for Staves  

14 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Dual-Wielding for Staves Be Removed to Defeat a Significant Exploit?

    • Yes
      6
    • No
      8


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As CM Patch 160 is progressing towards release, a discussion has begun over one piece of ingame mechanics - the ability to dual-wield one-handed magic staves.

 

There is an underdevelopment within the game engine that precludes ranged and melee weapons to be used in dual configuration, a-la melee + ranged. The first equipped weapon determines the attack type, and, thus, weapon combat art behavior. It means, that if a melee weapon is equipped first, and ranged - second, weapon combat arts will act like in melee, but the effective attack range would be around 2100 units(two screens). This is a serious exploit.

 

The exploit can be removed by making one-handed staves "both-handed weapons", like energy pistols are. They would be equippable with shields, but not dual-wieldable.

 

The set "Disciples of the Architect" would be exempt from the change - it's staff pieces dual-wieldable as before - a sort of set specific property.

 

This poll is created to determine the community reaction to aforementioned proposal.

Edited by dimitrius154
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5 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

The exploit can be removed by making one-handed staves "both-handed weapons", like energy pistols are.

Technically, this idea is good. But will it be good in practice? Most guides are written in the regalia of the current gameplay component of the game. Will this change the current game balance?

Sry for this Eng, thanks promt)

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11 minutes ago, WallsOfJericho said:

Will this change the current game balance?

It will, to an extent. Then again, game guides would have to be rewritten anyway - now that many hostile creatures have special moves and abilities they were supposed to have from the very beginning.

16 minutes ago, WallsOfJericho said:

But will it be good in practice?

I think, it will. With the ability to trash 2 screens of hostiles on the cheap gone, people will start paying attention to CA's other, then Ruthless Mutilation, Darting Assault, or Scything Sweep.

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In my opinion...

Absolutely not.  So many guides and information about the game would have to be changed, and some sets revolving around that would have to be removed.  I think it's just too much of an inconvenience to remove it, and I say we keep it.

Hopefully I didn't come across rude...

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24 minutes ago, Excelsior said:

some sets revolving around that would have to be removed.

Hmm, I don't recall any specializing in staff dual-wielding, except the "Disciples of the Architect", and this one stays as is. 

Edited by dimitrius154
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Voted No. Will write more when I get home. This issue is,  IMO sufficiently addressed in the current beta patch iteration of 1.60 without sacrificing anything. 

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2 hours ago, Flix said:

Voted No. Will write more when I get home. This issue is,  IMO sufficiently addressed in the current beta patch iteration of 1.60 without sacrificing anything. 

 

1 hour ago, Caledor said:

I'm for yes, but I'll refrain from actually voting until I hear more from Flix. About how v1.60 is currently the issue and such.

 

I can explain what's going on with v.1.60 in this regard. What the guys did was basically remove the exploit behaviour from both staves when dual-wielded, leaving only the ranged behaviour on the one equipped in the right hand (or primary weapon slot if you will). Ranged projectiles on magic staves were also made available from the get go without needing the weapon skill. So the magic staff will act as ranged as before but the secondary weapon, whatever it may be, wont. This diminishes the exploit but doesn't remove it completely, unless you dual-wield with the magic staff... in your left hand/secondary slot. So if you want to take advantage of the exploit you equip staff+secondary weapon, if not you equip primary weapon+staff. You can keep using the benefits of both weapon classes without having to automatically resort to an overpowered exploit.

And as such I'm with Flix in the "no" camp. I think that as is we have an all-around solution that can be effective both ways.

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Alright folks, it falls me to describe the fix currently implemented in beta patch 1.60.

If the results of this poll are NO, the current fix will be used, and this is what the situation will be:

  1. Magic staves are ranged right from the start, shooting magic projectiles.
  2. Wielding a single magic staff will not cause the exploit.  The Combat Art will shoot 1-2 magic projectiles.
  3. Dual-Wielding 2 Magic Staves will not cause the exploit.  This is because the game treats the staves as ranged.  The Combat Art will shoot multiple magic projectiles (very cool).
  4. Wielding a Magic Staff in the main-hand and a melee weapon in the off-hand will not cause the exploit.  The Combat Art will shoot ranged projectiles.
  5. Wielding a melee weapon in the main-hand and a Magic Staff in the off-hand will maybe cause the exploit.  My current testing w/ Darting Assault, is the game treats both weapons like normal melee, hitting enemies in immediate close range in front of the character.  Needs more testing?

So, as you can see, only one narrow circumstance (#5) may possibly trigger the exploit.  This exploit is now 100% avoidable by simply switching the hands the weapons are in.  Putting the magic staff in the main hand cures the bug, no matter what type of weapon is in the off-hand, be it a melee weapon or another magic staff.

Dmitriy's proposed solution is more extreme: disallow staves to be dual wielded at all, thereby removing #5 at the grave expense of also removing #3 & #4, setups which I enjoy in many of my builds.  I'm sure that others of you enjoy these builds as well.

For this reason I encourage to vote NO.  I'm not the lord of the patch so I can't/won't stop this change if that's what the community really wants.  But I'm very, very against this idea.  If disabling dual wielding staves makes it into the CM Patch, I will reverse the change in my own installation and as well as in my mods if possible.  And I'll supply the base files to restore dual wielding if I'm able.

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Oh, so it's the off-hand weapon with the specific CA that causes the exploit. Oki doki, I though the exploit was shooting all those projectiles. I'm glad it isn't and that's just normal behaviour.

And yes, the simplest solution should be the best. ;)

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You were right about the main hand controlling.  It's just the game treating a ranged staff like melee that was causing the screen blitz.

Or supposedly that was the case.  Here's the thing: I've been testing for the last hour and I CANNOT trigger this bug in the current beta patch.  Not even in scenario #5 listed above.  I just took Dmitriy's word that this scenario still caused the glitch.

Can someone test with a Darting Assault Dryad and the scenarios listed above, and see if they can trigger this exploit at all anymore?  We may have already fixed it.  An Inquisitor with Ruthless Mutilation can also be used to test.

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Yeah.  You'll see multiple enemies getting hit.  There are no projectiles.  Just invisible hits.  The key is that they'll be far, far away. Way out of melee range. 

Using a weapon with life leech and/or regen per hit will make it more obvious.  You'll see all the leech lines going from the enemies to the character.

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1 hour ago, Androdion said:

having to automatically resort to an overpowered exploit.

This is what my yes was for. I will always vote in favor of suppressing unavoidable exploits. Since this issue is solved by switching hands, I have no more reasons to vote for yes.

That said, shouldn't we make one handed pistols "dual-wieldable" too now? It seems strange to me that a former meele weapon can be dual wielded as ranged but an actual ranged weapon can't. obviously only if that's actually possible, with proper animations, in game effects and such

Edited by Caledor
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Ok, so I picked up a Dryad blank toon and equipped her with the Detheya's Agility set that has +%LL from opponents and the dual wield weapons of my SW (sword and staff).

 

Equip order:

  • staff+sword -> ranged attack cursor, staff shoots projectiles, attack is in ranged range, Darting Assault executes in melee range and shoots a few more projectiles (which curiously enough never seem to hit anything?!)
  • sword+staff -> ranged attack cursor, staff doesn't shoot projectiles, attack is always in melee range, Darting Assault executes in melee range and doesn't shoot any projectiles

So that's that.

PS: I like the dual-pistol idea, if it can be had. ;)

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37 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Ok, so I picked up a Dryad blank toon and equipped her with the Detheya's Agility set that has +%LL from opponents and the dual wield weapons of my SW (sword and staff).

 

Equip order:

  • staff+sword -> ranged attack cursor, staff shoots projectiles, attack is in ranged range, Darting Assault executes in melee range and shoots a few more projectiles (which curiously enough never seem to hit anything?!)
  • sword+staff -> ranged attack cursor, staff doesn't shoot projectiles, attack is always in melee range, Darting Assault executes in melee range and doesn't shoot any projectiles

So that's that.

PS: I like the dual-pistol idea, if it can be had. ;)

eqZOeI5.gif

 

So glad we don't have to duke it out over this issue.

 

There's a legitimate reason we can't dual wield pistols, and I think it's something to do with the behavior when combined with a melee weapon.  In fact it may cause the same bug we just stamped out with magic staves, not sure.

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Tried the Inquisitor with Ruthless Mutilation, same exact results except for the simple fact that the thrown projectiles on CA execution actually hit enemies around him. ;)

PS: I know what you mean about the pistols, but given your description of it wouldn't their behaviour be the same (or made to be the same) as the magic staves are right now? That would make it work no?!

Edited by Androdion
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Thanks man!

13 minutes ago, Androdion said:

PS: I know what you mean about the pistols, but given your description of it wouldn't their behaviour be the same (or made to be the same) as the magic staves are right now? That would make it work no?!

Oh, I remember, there's no animations for it!  Derp.  Yeah, it's as simple as that.  Unless you know a professional who's ready to make custom GR2 animations for free, we're S.O.L.  :P

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Just made a testing run:

 

Inquisitor: Ruthless Mutilation, Sword in right hand + Staff in left hand - invisible hits onscreen, no projectiles.

Dryad: Darting Assault, Sword in right hand + Staff in left hand - invisible hits onscreen, no projectiles.

Shadow Warrior: Scything Sweep, Sword in right hand + Staff in left hand - invisible hits onscreen, no projectiles.

 

Androdion, you were testing with Staff in right hand, right?;)

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It was late and I did fast runs, hitting mobs with more in walking distance. But other than that I did exactly like in my post above. Flix also couldn't reproduce the exploit, but if there are still doubts about it happening or not we can wait for other players' input.

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4 minutes ago, Androdion said:

hitting mobs with more in walking distance

Well, with a melee weapon in right hand and a staff in left, the effect I reproduce reliably is as follows:

 

When a distant opponent is clicked, the attack animation starts, then damage is applied to targets within two screens. No projectiles whatsoever. 

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10 hours ago, Androdion said:

Ok, so I picked up a Dryad blank toon and equipped her with the Detheya's Agility set that has +%LL from opponents and the dual wield weapons of my SW (sword and staff).

 

Equip order:

  • staff+sword -> ranged attack cursor, staff shoots projectiles, attack is in ranged range, Darting Assault executes in melee range and shoots a few more projectiles (which curiously enough never seem to hit anything?!)
  • sword+staff -> ranged attack cursor, staff doesn't shoot projectiles, attack is always in melee range, Darting Assault executes in melee range and doesn't shoot any projectiles

So that's that.

I started running around and hitting several mobs, in areas where there were few and a lot of enemies, with both configurations. The results were the ones I just quoted.

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Correct, the Dryad approaches in melee range and after the CA execution no projectiles fly away like in the other configuration. Ever since the beta commenced I never could fire projectiles with a mage staff if I equipped the dual wield like that, it always attacked in melee. It just shoots projectiles if I equip the mage staff before the sword, be it with a left click attack or with a CA.

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Try to use Darting Assault against distant enemies, ones that are way out of melee range.  My experience was the Dryad closes in to melee range.  Will have to test later today.

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