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Seferoth

Questions about skill/attribute rewards from quests.

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Hello, this is my first post here and pretty much made this account to ask these questions. So, did I get this right, Ancaria Airlines and Feed the Poor are the only quests which gives you attribute/skill point rewards? If so, does this mean I have to play through these quests in every single difficulty(including bronze) to get all the points possible? Also, why does only Light Campaign has its own quest which rewards attribute/skill points? This automatically means that Shadow Path followers get less Attribute/Skill points(if this is the case it is pretty poor design choice). Also, can you get infinite attribute/skill points because of this if you simply repeat these quests in Free World mode a thousand times? Thank you for those who will take time to answer to these questions.

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30 minutes ago, Seferoth said:

If so, does this mean I have to play through these quests in every single difficulty(including bronze) to get all the points possible?

Correct.

30 minutes ago, Seferoth said:

Also, why does only Light Campaign has its own quest which rewards attribute/skill points?

All Jedi and no Sith around, despite cookies:) I believe, that was more of a test of concept on behalf of our German predecessors-colleagues. That issue has been addressed in the Addendum.

34 minutes ago, Seferoth said:

Also, can you get infinite attribute/skill points because of this if you simply repeat these quests in Free World mode a thousand times?

I don't think so. There's a quirk there: you only receive the goods once you save the campaign state(quests included). That state is not saved in Free World mode.

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Thank you for the very detailed answer. I will download the Addendum then. Had actually never heard about it before. So, thank you again.

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51 minutes ago, Seferoth said:

Also, can you get infinite attribute/skill points because of this if you simply repeat these quests in Free World mode a thousand times? Thank you for those who will take time to answer to these questions.

One may repeat the quests "Feed The Poor" and "Ancaria Airlines" in Multiplayer you will get, regardless of level, one skill point and one attribute point for either or each. There is no limit to the number of times you get these points. Yet, you must exit the Multiplayer game and start another one each time.

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2 minutes ago, Hooyaah said:

One may repeat the quests "Feed The Poor" and "Ancaria Airlines" in Multiplayer you will get, regardless of level, one skill point and one attribute point for either or each. There is no limit to the number of times you get these points. Yet, you must exit the Multiplayer game and start another one each time.

So you can pretty much get infinite amount of attribute/skill points? That is quite an oversight...

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3 minutes ago, Hooyaah said:

There is no limit to the number of times you get these points.

Hmm, interesting. Was that tested? If so, those should probably be marked as SP only.

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Yes, I tested it and unless it was changed in the final addendum (I use the addendum to the CM 160 Patch that was just prior to the final minor changes still). So, one may get those skills, however, at one point each time it's more efficient to just level up and get more points and work toward skill mastery at level 75.

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OK, I see. Improper release stages. I'll confine attribute and skill point-granting quests to campaign modes. Available once per difficulty.

Edited by dimitrius154
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1 hour ago, dimitrius154 said:

OK, I see. Improper release stages. I'll confine attribute and skill point-granting quests to campaign modes. Available once per difficulty.

Any ETA for the update? I have not downloaded Addendum yet, so I think its best for me to wait for this update.

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Can't say. This particular change has already been applied. What's taking a lot of time is fixing-restoring-adding character animations. For now I'm turning Inquisitor robes from vertex-animated into skeleton-animated. 

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I think that the issue with skills being granted with quests in Multiplayer is a non-problem. Do we then limit rewards from quests that grant item rewards too? People should have the freedom to decide how they want to play the game just as people should be able to decide how to live their lives. If a players doesn't want the extra skill and attribute points or other quest rewards they don't have to play the quests. I don't see most players staying on a particular level playing the same quest numerous times, mainly because it would be boring. Besides, who could be potentially victimized here anyway?

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2 hours ago, Hooyaah said:

I think that the issue with skills being granted with quests in Multiplayer is a non-problem. Do we then limit rewards from quests that grant item rewards too? People should have the freedom to decide how they want to play the game just as people should be able to decide how to live their lives. If a players doesn't want the extra skill and attribute points or other quest rewards they don't have to play the quests. I don't see most players staying on a particular level playing the same quest numerous times, mainly because it would be boring. Besides, who could be potentially victimized here anyway?

Balance questions are always tough huh

:blink:

 

gogo

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4 hours ago, dimitrius154 said:

Can't say. This particular change has already been applied. What's taking a lot of time is fixing-restoring-adding character animations. For now I'm turning Inquisitor robes from vertex-animated into skeleton-animated. 

Dimitrius, thanks for all your help and invaluable time here with your supporting this mod and keeping Sacred going.  Your patience and time on these threads is just outstanding

 

Thank you!!
:gogo:

 

gogo

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I think exploits like these should be patched. Item rewards were made to fit the game, but skill/attribute rewards do not belong to the game. I mean, what I understand the vanilla game did not have these quest rewards, so this exploit is specifically created by Community Patch. These skill/attribute rewards also force people to play at Bronze difficulty if you don't want to miss any points, it is pretty poor design choice all around. People who wish to cheat can always use save game editors if they want more attribute/skill points.

Edited by Seferoth

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I follow your logic and (still a bit begrudgingly) agree. The Community Patch has done wonders for the enhancement of the game. However, it has caused some other issues that I am less fond of. For instance, there are now so many new armor sets that were not in the original game. Yes, this is welcome because it adds great diversity. Yet, because there are so many total pieces for each set, one may find it difficult to collect a complete set of any particular one of them; this is especially true if the goal is to collect each of the pieces and all from the same level. The mutation set pieces for the High Elf, for example, appears so seldom that it's tantamount to being a "fabled" set. There ought to be some method by which aggravations like this could be corrected. I have some ideas, but I don't know if anyone would want to take action on such issues.

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I always find it funny when people complain about being able to make choices.

Yes the game gives you choices, by design, to choose either a Light or Shadow Path character. That in turn will limit the way you play since both main quests are a bit different, plus some quests are only available to either side (Panem et Circenses for instance is Shadow Path only). That's not poor design but the way the game was actually designed, with moral choices. So why should a good deed quest like Feed the Poor be available for a Shadow Path character?! It may seem petty or miniscule but it's still a moral choice so it fits with the game concept.

Now the fact that with CM Patch that particular quest can give you a bonus that wasn't originally coded into the game is another issue. You can agree or disagree, and yet the CM Patch also isn't part of the "original code", so again I fail to see what's so wrong about a non-official patch changing the way some things work anyway. The fact of the matter is that content was restored and content was introduced, but using the patch is purely optional. And even if one uses the patch, doing either of those two quests is again optional. No one forces anyone to play in specific ways to take more of the game than it was supposed.

Again I find it funny that no one seems to complain about a player being able to grind bosses repeatedly in LAN mode, and yet that's part of the original game design. You can grind XP and gear as much as you want, so how is that any different from grinding skill/attribute points? At the risk of sounding repetitious, it's again, optional. And please, if a player wants to cheat he/she cheats. There are no "pure" ways of playing this game or any game.

So I go back to my opening line to say, why do people complain about having choices when they can be had, or not? I think I'll never quite understand.

 

PS: The fact that the set/unique pool is much wider and that there's an added difficulty in finding everything is the most sound argument so far, and I can sympathize. Yet if one would be able to find every piece of every set at a given difficulty how rare would they be? And how overpowered would you be with many of them giving absurd advantages like %LL?! Yeah, look the other way and you'll see there's a reasoning to be made for each side of the question. ;)

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I suppose that in the end it comes down to personal preference. That having been said, the overwhelming majority of players of games strive to reach every available goal. If one cannot achieve the "Fashion Police" achievement, for example (except by wearing armor one does not intend to use longer than trying it on once) then it takes a lot of fun out of the game. Leech Life is not available for Spell Casters like the High Elf, as it's a weapons-based damage. Sorry, I am getting off my point here. I am simply saying that games should be fun and too many games punish the player too much and reward them too seldom. If the only way to have a good time playing a game is to download an armor set then it opens the door for other means of circumventing game mechanics. A player would then rationalize thusly, "Well, I already downloaded the armor, I may as well get the weapon and shield too. Oh, while I'm at it I'll get that jewelry!" So, is it best to have a game that's a bit too stingy with sets and too challenging to win by normal means using smart builds and without having to endure the constant stress of potential character demise without pumping the health all the time? No, I believe that it is far better to have a game that is well balanced and encourages the player by rewarding their diligent efforts.

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31 minutes ago, Androdion said:

PS: The fact that the set/unique pool is much wider and that there's an added difficulty in finding everything is the most sound argument so far, and I can sympathize. Yet if one would be able to find every piece of every set at a given difficulty how rare would they be? And how overpowered would you be with many of them giving absurd advantages like %LL?! Yeah, look the other way and you'll see there's a reasoning to be made for each side of the question. ;)

Perhaps culling some of the myriad of sets would help then. I would rather there be a balance and a fair chance to find a full set closer to the way it was in the vanilla game.

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Nobody complained about Feed the Poor being only available to good guys, I complained about the fact that it is UNBALANCED that Light side gets more attribute/skill points than those who follow Shadow path(good thing that Addendum at least fixed that problem). Also the quest rewards do not give you a choice, infact it takes away the choice. I want all skill/attribute points available so therefore I am forced to play the game in each and every difficulty to obtain them. In Vanilla game I have a choice to ignore Bronze difficulty altogether, but with Community Patch that is not he case if you want all the attribute/skill points available. Grinding attribute/skill points from 2 quests is far different than farming bosses for loot and experience. Getting infinite attribute/skill points is not good game design, it's a flaw, it's an exploit, plain and simple. I am thinking about learning to mod Sacred 2 and remove those skill/attribute rewards altogether from my game. I just dont like them and I am a min/max guy so I cannot simply ignore them. Although I have zero idea how to mod Sacred 2.

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But mate, playing those quests ARE optional. That was my whole point, and if you don't want to abuse those rewards you just don't do those quests, plain and simple. Now if you're a completist then I can understand the frustration.

And I beg to differ about the loot grind. Take legendaries as an example, try to get one to drop during the campaign and you have limited chances since they'll only drop from some types of enemies. In LAN you can just teleport to the Nameless Guardians chamber and kill them over and over again in order to attempt legendary drops. Isn't that an exploit when you can then use those in SP mode? Yes, it is. So my point stands.

@Hooyaah - I can understand the sentiment, and I reckon that a lesser pool of set items would make drops more in line with what you desire. In vanilla the three primary sets were easier to be completed, but my guess is that the issue isn't with class-specific sets but more so with multi-class sets which are abundant and tend to drop a lot. Mini-sets with jewellery and weapons which are now also a part of that rarity pool.

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It's not an exploit if the game was designed to work that way. Attribute/Skill point rewards are not part of the original game. Also why are you defending this exploit? Is it not better to fix this issue and let players to use Save Game Editors to cheat more attributes/skill points? Why are you against FIXING a clear issue?

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It's a clear issue for you, it's "game design" for those who made the CM Patch. You can always respects other people's vision and opinions while maintaining your own. But really, if you want pure vanilla play pure vanilla, as anything else isn't part of the original game design anyway. I recommend Sacred 2 Gold without anything else on top of it.

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Pfft, no I want to to play the most fixed version of this extremely buggy and broken game. Why are you going instantly to "play vanilla" approach? Did I complain about any other part than this? Did I? Its hilarious to me that some people clearly can't take any kind of criticism, I respect pretty much everything the CM patch does and the people who has put countless of hours,days,months or even years to make it, but this quest/attribute point "infinite farm" is just poor game design...plain and simple. Leaving exploits to your game on purpose is not a good game design. I still think it's an oversight, but it was you who called it "game design". Think how Diablo II community would have reacted if there would be a way to get infinite attribute/skill points in the game, and without actual cheating? Do you think they would be like "oh it's just a game design, it's fine"? There would have been riots on the street.

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Look, just stop. Every time you get refuted you find a different argument to keep picking a fight, and honestly this passive-aggressive posting isn't in line with how this community works. We can all argument all we want but there's a fine line between stating your opinion and just pointing fingers saying "you're wrong, wrong wrong". You say I can't take criticism but I'm just stating facts, not opinions. You can play the game patched with how the modding community did it or you can play it unpatched like the original devs did it. Man, you can even start modding it yourself to your own personal amusement. Many user here do so. What is definitely not welcomed here is a confrontational attitude as this is a chilled community where people come to coexist without attrition, so please and if you will don't be a source for such attrition as to make people feel uncomfortable here. Post around, make questions, say your opinion out loud, but drop the attitude. Please.

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Yes, you have very "chill" attitude yourself. Sorry, but I am going to say what I am going to say. This is my topic, and I can talk about the said subject of the topic as much as I want. I have never once gone off topic even. Ban me if you can't handle simple conversation or just walk away. I am not changing my OPINION on this matter because of you or your OPINIONS and I will definitely not be silenced just because you want me to.

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