ESP: The beginning and the modmerging system [S2G/CP1.6/EE2.1/SS,C]

[Androdion 875]

RPH is indeed broken, but in that respect so is +All Skills. In fact once you use Bargaining extensively you can pretty much circumvent every mechanic in the game by simple buying item with the modifier you need to do so. That's just how Sacred 2 is really. I mean, players used to have buff suits just to be able to bypass regen penalties, and that was considered being smart. But once you take advantage of a mechanic that the game presents you in order to do the same it's somehow wrong?! Eh, I fear this may devolve again into a "what you should and shouldn't do with your game" debate. You know, the "twinked vs untwinked toon" dilema. I guess if we look at the game from a certain perspective much of it is broken from birth, but then again that much works too so I'd just say that each person will have its opinion on the matter.

[Charon117 50]

38 minutes ago, Androdion said:

RPH is indeed broken, but in that respect so is +All Skills.

Not in Flixs EE. He nerfed them so hard. I stil have a talisman with all skill+1 and a ring +2 at level 76 in my build though, so I have to say he balanced them pretty good if I still keep using them.

Nothing saying Flix cant integrate a nice rebalance of RPH in EE. Even at 30% they are still op enough that people will use them.

41 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Eh, I fear this may devolve again into a "what you should and shouldn't do with your game" debate. You know, the "twinked vs untwinked toon" dilema. I guess if we look at the game from a certain perspective much of it is broken from birth, but then again that much works too so I'd just say that each person will have its opinion on the matter.

Not in the slightest. If Flix doesnt implement it into EE I will implement it into ESP. But for now the modmerging system takes all my attention. Im interested in debate though, and if players have the same view on the topic as I have.

[Androdion 875]

Well, an interesting aspect of RPH is that the devs themselves nerfed it. As far as I'm aware it used to work with spell-based CAs as well, so if you think a melee multi-hit CA becomes overpowered when RPH is socketed then imagine casting Glacial Thorns.  The +All Skills modifier was also immensely nerfed by the devs, just check out the D.A.R.K. toons in the download section and you'll find jewellery with +15! The thing is, some modifiers are utterly game altering, so even when they're nerfed they're still very powerful! Another one is %LL. Once you get to Platinum every boss will die in few hits with it, and if you don't have it you'd better have a really solid build!

I think the fun part about broken modifiers in Sacred 2 is that you can make weird builds that shouldn't really work and make then work. A full melee Magic Coup High Elf is not supposed to be a proper build in the game, yet you slap it with a %LL modifier and you have a powerhouse build. To me that's the fun with having stuff like RPH, +All Skills, %LL, Damage Mitigation, high level Bargaining and probably something else I'm forgetting right now. To be able to play it through and through even though you're not supposed to. That's a lot of replay value right there.

[Flix 5,116]

5 hours ago, Charon117 said:

I just hope this doesnt require somebody to change every single item.

Easiest way would just be to edit the bonus entry in blueprint.txt. This would change it on every item at once, and also keep the proportions between different items. (A ring providing a lower value than a set bonus for example).

So here's the original bonus:

newBonus = {
--  name = "sb_off_energyleech_whit",
  rating = 23,
  basedonskill = "SKILL_INVALID",
  type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT",
  spez = "",
  spez2 = "",
  usagebits = 65535,
  minconstraints = {10,5,0},
  difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,25,125},
  difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,33,165},
  difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,41,205},
  difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,50,250},
  difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,60,300},
}
mgr.createBonus(665, newBonus);

It could be changed to look something this:

newBonus = {
--  name = "sb_off_energyleech_whit",
  rating = 23,
  basedonskill = "SKILL_INVALID",
  type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT",
  spez = "",
  spez2 = "",
  usagebits = 65535,
  minconstraints = {10,5,0},
  difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,8,42},
  difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,11,55},
  difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,14,68},
  difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,17,84},
  difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,20,100},
}
mgr.createBonus(665, newBonus);

And that would cut the amounts down to 1/3 former values.  I do think that in turn for doing this I would probably want to restore the bonus back onto regular jewelry and other magic-tier items where it originally was.

[Androdion 875]

2 minutes ago, Flix said:

I do think that in turn for doing this I would probably want to restore the bonus back onto regular jewelry and other magic-tier items where it originally was.

Usually the first time RPH appears on a ring it's 0.2 seconds, so wouldn't the 0.06 value be turned into 0.1 by default due to approximation? And I guess so, if it becomes too rare and too small of a bonus then being present or not may be the same thing in practical terms.

[Charon117 50]

@Androdion Take this to your heart.

The Reality is, a broken game can still be fun,
while a perfectly balanced game might not even be touched.

With this in mind the goal of ESP is not going to be to make a perfectly balanced game. In fact, if people want to have a nice experience in vanilla they usually implement certain self-regualting rules on their build. I think these changes dont want to take away the unique place and game changing element a modifier has, but balance it so that other modifiers can still shine under it. Even at 30% RPH is still a complete game changing modifier, but now you can actually use it and not make 60% of the game irrelevant. If you followed the discussion between me and Flix so far you will see that the ultimate goal result of it will be that rings and talisman at 20% will be able to spawn again - and with it introducing a lost variaty which was there before.

48 minutes ago, Androdion said:

 Another one is %LL. Once you get to Platinum every boss will die in few hits with it, and if you don't have it you'd better have a really solid build!

One of the other things I would like to do would be to remove the Life Leach component of LL%. That is, its still |Dmg%|, but without any healing effect. Sacred 2 revolves around 2 parts. The first is to deal damage, and the second one is to be able to sustain damage. Having both aspects covered hard in one modifier takes away a lot of content, which could otherwise take its place. I think |Dmg%| is a great idea.

48 minutes ago, Androdion said:

I think the fun part about broken modifiers in Sacred 2 is that you can make weird builds that shouldn't really work and make then work.

Yes, I used to think exactly like you. But consider this. In all my time in Sacred 2 I never seen more than 25% of the map. But with EE SuperSpawn Challenge mod I actually cant go rush anything anymore. Every area for me is locked down by its respective boss, and I am forced to explore all the possibilities Sacred 2 has to offer in order to make it. Level 76 and I still havent made it to the Seraphim Island. My map looks totally different now, 90% of accessible area has been visisted at least once, and I write down loot tables for mobs ( if anybody is interested in that, give me a call ). Due to the challenge option I experience the 75% of content I didnt need to touch. And with the added challenge I would like to get a balanced game, so that one modifier doesnt take away what Flixs mod has to offer. You will see all CA in a complete different light than before.

 

45 minutes ago, Flix said:

It could be changed to look something this:

No clue how you figured out that thats the bonus, but I guess you looked up the ID.

You took 1/3%, but I think 30% is better, especially when you allow rings and amuletts too. I will immediatelly change it to this:

newBonus = {
--  name = "sb_off_energyleech_whit",
  rating = 23,
  basedonskill = "SKILL_INVALID",
  type = "BONUS_ENERGYLEECH_WHIT",
  spez = "",
  spez2 = "",
  usagebits = 65535,
  minconstraints = {10,5,0},
  difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,8,38},
  difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,10,50},
  difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,13,62},
  difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,15,75},
  difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,18,90},
}
mgr.createBonus(665, newBonus);

Offtopic: You could make the background a bit brighter for <>. Edit: Nvm, the code section looks fine, guess the quote one could use some love.

Ontopic: That should immediately make for a better game. Pin me the code when you got the jewels fixed. Please.

 

40 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Usually the first time RPH appears on a ring it's 0.2 seconds, so wouldn't the 0.06 value be turned into 0.1 by default due to approximation? And I guess so, if it becomes too rare and too small of a bonus then being present or not may be the same thing in practical terms.

Im pretty sure Sacred 2 takes more than 1 decimal, but there could be a display discrepancy. Anyway, we will need wait for Flix to implement the jewels again and than look at the tooltip.

Also 0.06 RPH ring so soooooooooooooooooooo well balanced.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Charon117

[Flix 5,116]

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

No clue how you figured out that thats the bonus, but I guess you looked up the ID.

I have a lot of scripts memorized, it's just a side effect of staring at them for 7+ years.  I also organized the contents of most of my main D2F scripts as well as commenting in English names.

There is a spreadsheet made by original CM Patch team that lists all the bonuses and bonusgroups if I ever do need to look something up though.  I really should update it but I never get the motivation.

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Offtopic: You could make the background a bit brighter for <>. Edit: Nvm, the code section looks fine, guess the quote one could use some love.

I think it's the Halloween skin, normally quotes and code sections look ok.

[Charon117 50]

@Androdion the process you are describing is called discovery in games, and its a very important part. I also think that we shouldnt overbalance the game. Why ? If we would balance out every modifier to be of equal worth, than no player would have an epiphany of how valuable something is. The more we balance, the more we remove the discovery process of the player, because we pre-chew everything in the game and the player never needs to discover something important ( because everything would be equally important in the game - thanks to our balancing). So while I think 30% is the perfect balance point for RPH, nothing says it needs to be perfectly balanced. We could move it up to 40% and the player would have a nice discovery process of how good the RPH modifier really is.

@FlixNow that I know you can weave magic, can you tell me where I could find the +elemental dmg%(fire,arcane,ice,posion) on rings and amulets. I always felt like they were underused, because for every +eDmg% there was an equivalent of +all Dmg% modifier which just dropped more rarely. A little boost to those rings would do good. I think something of +20% - +40%.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Charon117

[Androdion 875]

I agree, but usually a mod depends on the maker's view so don't sweat about it. I was just voicing my opinion. We don't all have to agree on everything, and that's perfectly ok.

I think Flix supercharged the elemental damage modifiers on EE, so that's a good starting point.

[Charon117 50]

8 minutes ago, Androdion said:

I think Flix supercharged the elemental damage modifiers on EE, so that's a good starting point.

They still drop the exact same values I would also get for AllDmg% ones, afaik.

[Androdion 875]

Oh I remember now. He increased their rarity and they give an extra chance to trigger the corresponding secondary effect when rare and a boost to the corresponding elemental damage when unique.

But you wanted to increase the scale of their efficiency, my bad.

[Flix 5,116]

11 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Oh I remember now. He increased their rarity and they give an extra chance to trigger the corresponding secondary effect when rare and a boost to the corresponding elemental damage when unique.

But you wanted to increase the scale of their efficiency, my bad.

Close.  What I did was create new damage converters (magic pearl, lava chunk, etc.) that have rare and unique tiers with the extra effects you described.

As to the Damage +X%, that's getting a rebalance in the upcoming EE.  Check out Caledor's Balance Mod thread if you want to get an idea of what is happening and why.  I'll be posting the Full EE 2.2 changelog this week.

In short, rather than boosting the single channel Damage +% modifiers, I reduced the all channel Damage +% to be about 1/2 the values of the single elements.  This was done because all channel Damage +% not only outshines the single channel ones, but it also outstrips most other sources of increased damage like Chance for Critical Hits and Damage of Enraged Players.  So those latter two modifiers get a boost.

[Charon117 50]

1 hour ago, Flix said:

Chance for Critical Hits and Damage

I am against an increased Chance for Critical Hits. I think the current % for Critical hits are perfectly balanced. If you increase the chances you risk to get crits every other hit, or even exceed 100% crit chance at the higher levels. What I think it needs is a boost to AdjustCriticalDamageFactor to 2000. If you increase the %critc you risk exactly the same thing as with the increased speed, that you are hitting invisible caps without players even realising it. Make Crits rare ( as they are now ) but hit harder.

1 hour ago, Flix said:

Check out Caledor's Balance Mod thread

Read it long ago.

1 hour ago, Flix said:

In short, rather than boosting the single channel Damage +% modifiers, I reduced the all channel Damage +% to be about 1/2 the values of the single elements.

Does this include the blacksmith ones ?

[Flix 5,116]

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

I am against an increased Chance for Critical Hits. I think the current % for Critical hits are perfectly balanced. If you increase the chances you risk to get crits every other hit, or even exceed 100% crit chance at the higher levels. What I think it needs is a boost to AdjustCriticalDamageFactor to 2000. If you increase the %critc you risk exactly the same thing as with the increased speed, that you are hitting invisible caps without players even realising it. Make Crits rare ( as they are now ) but hit harder.

They do hit harder. They are 1500 in base EE and 2000 in Challenge Mode/Inferno Edition.  Although I don't really like the idea of crits being double damage in the base game because there's already a double damage modifier in the game: Deathblow.

I don't believe you can get 100% crit chance. The modifier should stack with diminishing returns.

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

Does this include the blacksmith ones ?

In fact the Whet Blacksmith Art has been using the wrong Damage % modifier this whole time (the rare-tier yellow bonus).  It was meant to use a weaker blue bonus.  So I just swapped that out, and yes it is weaker.

[Charon117 50]

5 hours ago, Flix said:

I don't believe you can get 100% crit chance. The modifier should stack with diminishing returns.

Really ? That would make crits incredibly bad. If I have a 1% crit chance + 1% crit chance than the result is 1.01% crit ? I always though crit chances stacked without diminishing returns, just like dmg%. That makes crit% incredible hard to calculate if you dont trust the sigma sign.

Im still against the idea of increased crit%, I want crits to be more meaningful, not to happen in higher quantity. That goes against the basic design of a critical. It should reward you with a rare moment, not being a damage booster in disguise.

@Flix So RPH would indeed need another decimal to display. Is Sacred 2 capable of that ?

Edited October 25, 2019 by Charon117

[Flix 5,116]

8 hours ago, Charon117 said:

I always though crit chances stacked without diminishing returns, just like dmg%.

No you're right critical chance just stacks right on up to 100% and beyond.  With that in mind I'll rethink increasing the chances.

The Enhance Blacksmith Art and TG runes should probably be left alone. In fact Enhance may actually end up being nerfed - again like Damage % on Whet, I discovered that Enhance should be using the blue "forge" version of the bonus, and not the yellow rare tier one.

I may only increase the crit chances unlocked by skill mastery on weapons by about 25%. I'm ok with these chances being higher (they were quite low) because the player would only be able to have 1-2 instances of such a bonus since they only spawn on weapons.

I will count on the increased damage of crits in EE to carry the modifier beyond that.

8 hours ago, Charon117 said:

So RPH would indeed need another decimal to display. Is Sacred 2 capable of that ?

It's possible something could be adjusted in the dll's.  However, after testing it I'm not really a fan of decreasing the bonus amount and making it spawn more frequently.  I prefer RpH being a rare-tier and above bonus. I may actually change the text color to yellow in the next EE. It's just cosmetic, but it's nice to have the colors reflect the rarity.

[Charon117 50]

9 hours ago, Flix said:

It's possible something could be adjusted in the dll's.  However, after testing it I'm not really a fan of decreasing the bonus amount and making it spawn more frequently.  I prefer RpH being a rare-tier and above bonus. I may actually change the text color to yellow in the next EE. It's just cosmetic, but it's nice to have the colors reflect the rarity.

How about decreasing it to 40%, and dont reinstate jewelry ? Unless you are saying you want a single modifier to completely remove a system in the game ? Nothing says RPH cant be rare, but as it is now its simply too strong, no ? You nerfed the ALLSkill+ as well, so I dont really see why you cant nerf RPH.

[Flix 5,116]

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

You nerfed the ALLSkill+ as well,

In fact I have not touched that modifier in all my time with the game.  Devs nerfed it with the release of Ice & Blood IIRC.

 

1 hour ago, Charon117 said:

How about decreasing it to 40%, and dont reinstate jewelry ?

It's still on rare rings in the current release.  I'm considering leaving the numbers nice and beefy on weapons and armor and just removing it from rare rings.  Then, on the 5 pieces of set jewelry that have it, I would reduce the amount really low to prevent socketing abuse.

[Charon117 50]

Well I think even a single RPH is op. My point is there is no difference between getting 1.0 RPH and getting 3.0 RPH. It breaks the system either way.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Charon117

[Androdion 875]

6 hours ago, Charon117 said:

My point is there is not difference between getting 1.0 RPH and getting 3.0 RPH. It breaks the system either way.

Oh, trust me there is! The difference is between breaking it "softly" and breaking it "badly".  But I digress, I know what you meant.

[dimitrius154 612]

11 hours ago, Androdion said:

My point is there is not difference between getting 1.0 RPH and getting 3.0 RPH. It breaks the system either way.

If the Buff cancellers were more common, that opinion might have changed. Also, attack/defence, spell intensity/spell resistance formulae were originally broken by the compiler, it seems. If the feedback is to be believed, once proper calculations are restored, the hostiles become much less fragile.

Edited October 27, 2019 by dimitrius154

[Charon117 50]

Can somebody explain to me whether

local subfamSlots =
in balance.txt

is a category that (1) takes new code lines ?

Edit: expanding this question to

local subfamDroplists =
local shrinkheadMinionMap =

Edited October 27, 2019 by Charon117

[dimitrius154 612]

It does, but the "SUBFAM_..." has to be one of the entries defiened in a certain s2core.dll table.

[Charon117 50]

Just now, dimitrius154 said:

It does, but the "SUBFAM_..." has to be one of the entries defiened in a certain s2core.dll table.

Which means if somebody like you comes along and is capable of changing the dll, he would appreciate if new code identifiers would get taken into account when using the modmerge system ?

[dimitrius154 612]

New or name replacement subfamily definitions need to  be present in s2core.dll. Adding new subfamily definitions also requires reworking several functions in s2core and s2logic dlls(weapon type determination, animation group determination, equipability determination).