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Burgfräulein, Paladin build in v12, discuss nerf in v13


chattius

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Oh, I remember reading about those. They seem really cool!

I've gone against Gar and it wasn't as hard as I was expecting. Sure, it was long, but all I had to do was run circles around him casting FotH and renewing Holy Shield. He almost had me near the end because I was so absorbed that I didn't realise my shield had just gone away, but he "just" redlined me. It's done. Using Blessed Hammer has been fun because its range is very wide and it's great for targeting running mobs or just snipe them from a distance until they're in range for HF to kick in. Using a Shadow Weaver with nearly +10% Combat art range has also been helping me out, and I have to say that I really should've chosen Devout Offense Lore sooner as it's making the damage output increase to decent numbers.

And in other news I've just noticed that Speed Lore is a secondary skill, so I can't choose that and something else... Oh well, I need to decide what to do. I'm not running with Armor Lore, and I'm considering not choosing it and just master Energy Shield Lore early for having a good defense. I don't know what to choose though and I really need to make up my mind. This "go with the flow wannabe Auradin" needs to go somewhere. :D

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2 Magic Find

3 Blacksmith

5 Concentration

8 Trading

12 Alchemy

18 Blessed Defense Focus

25 Combat Discipline

Was playable with Fanatism and Holy Freeze as buffs, Zeal and a pistol socketed for ice damage, some reg per hit shopped. Whet sockets gave the hit chance thanks to Blacksmith skill. Holy Shield was just put up for Bosses.

35 Devout Offense Focus

Taken for Conviction/Fanatism buff combo against clay golem

Currently level 41, planed:

50 Devout Offense lore

65 Ancient Magic

 

 

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She watched my singer barbarian using alchemy and thought why not. She plans to lower FoH regeneration times to a spammable amount this way. Holy Fire would just be a backup and not the main damage source, so she replaced damage lore with alchemy. First 40 levels were shooting at slowed enemies with Holy Freeze giving additional nice +x% cold damage. Unmodified Fanastism gave fire speed and a bit extra damage. Most enemies drop before in melee range. So no need of Holy Fire this early in the game.

Wonder how she does the metamorphosis from a sniper to a caster because shooting damage gets less powerful more and more with unmodified weapon CA's. So far she can find and buy alchemy trophies for reg per hit, attack speed,... for boss fights. For clay coloss throphies allowed a spammable Blessed Hammer even unmodified more single target damage than Zeal.

Modification were first Holy Freeze, then Holy Shield then Conviction. All points into stamina.

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That build idea is very nice indeed. Somehow you can always find a way to play "outside of the box" master Chattius. :bow:

I've been playing more sparsely these days, the weather and work have been leaving me half-sick on and off. I've managed to make a run for the Swamps and got to level 50 for that ninth skill. I ended up choosing Armor Lore because I was getting too many close calls, my regen penalty in the inventory was always high and since it's a build which is dependant on gear I was missing on many locked modifiers on armour. I managed to get by the Orc region and Octalamungus and then by the Carnach Caves and both bosses, but boy did I feel the heat. I know I know, I'm playing with a semi-underpowered build in the hardest difficulty mode the mod provides so the challenge was actually welcomed since it doesn't feel like I can just advance without fear. No, I need to think and pause, time out and readjust. I eventually felt the need to readjust my gear in some aspects and spent 3 million gold doing so, the difference was noticeable on the spot. Boss runs consist of hit and run attacks until they're dead but they're manageable. I believe that once I get some skills up this won't be that much of a problem, even in higher difficulties, as I still need to modify CAs I'm using.

As for CA behaviour feedback and balance, everything seems tidy and clean. Nothing is overpowering at the level I'm at but they also don't stop killing, there's just this need to adjust here and there. I think that when I master Ancient Magic this won't be much of a problem. HF is working well, not burning everything but managing to burn many things and even in the Carnach Caves, FotH is the main killer but it's not as beyond the curve as to allow to just spam->kill everything, BH is working nicely but could benefit from some modifications and a weapon with more emphasis on fire damage (and deathblow, but I have no gold for that right now) and HB right now is lacking because it's unmodified. Prayer and HS have been very supportive but not impervious so I guess the balancing is great.

Currently I have +27 All Skills, so many of my level 1 skills are providing decent numbers, and that allows some space for a slower progression and CA modding. I'm going for Devout Offense Focus, Concentration and Trading masteries and then I should master Devout Offense Lore, Energy Shield Lore and Ancient Magic in some order. I'm still on the fence between which Lore skill first, but if the toon keeps getting away with mobs I may go for DOL first to finish modifying my CAs. As it seems this may be the first time I intend on modifying all CAs in the same tree. :D

As for my tenth skill, it'll be either Blacksmith for the added socketing and smith bonuses or Toughness for the added damage mitigation. I'll have to keep playing and see how my toon behaves and try to understand what's best for it.

PS: @Flix - Just so it's clear, you said before that you sent out v12 with tripled critical chances. Was that corrected with the revised spells.txt or is that dependant on other changes? What I mean is if that's already corrected or not.

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2 hours ago, Androdion said:

Just so it's clear, you said before that you sent out v12 with tripled critical chances. Was that corrected with the revised spells.txt or is that dependant on other changes? What I mean is if that's already corrected or not.

No, that change is made in blueprint.txt and only applies to items. I'll push it out whenever v13 is released. This is the relevant section of the changelog:

Items:
    - Chance for Critical Hits on "Enhance" Blacksmith Art now uses the same value as Runes. Value is reduced back to vanilla to prevent easily socketing 100% crit chance.
    - Chance for Critical Hits on items (except those unlocked by Alchemy or Weapon skills) are reduced back to vanilla values. Unlockable values remain tripled.

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So the idea is to only have tripled criticals when there's an investment in the appropriate skill to unlock them. That makes sense.

I have no idea how much work that takes or if you have done it already, but would it be too much to ask for you to release that amended blueprint here? If that's possible how would it affect the items stashed? Would they be re-rolled?

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Quick update. Did a nice run through the Swamps and into the Desert with the amended blueprint and spells (almost running v13 here :D). It was probably the gear upgrade I did before I stopped playing last night but my toon is much more efficient right now. It was fun burning down the swamps, though the second my shield would drop I was in real trouble. With my shield up and Ancient Magic's diminished immunities apparently kicking in HF was very helpful in that region. I'm running two combos, FotH+BH and HB+BH for demons and undead. So it's going pretty well. Now that I've looted enough for gold I have one of the weapon slots with a shield+sword combo with 40% deathblow, which should prove interesting for boss fights. We'll see if it works as intended, but between 35% on FotH and 40% on BH I think the chances are it'll work. Garganthropod here I come (tomorrow, tomorrow...).

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My olders daughters did Sacred2 build challenges like the Spidergirl dryad and the rewardwas  a 3D CAD controller.

Since our third is an excellent musician, playing mainly the electiric zither, I thought to make the reward a Behringer Motör 61 I got from a sales out at a music store.

The challenge:

no defensiv skills

no CA-tree lores or tactic lore

at least 4!!! general skills

should include a guide and as all nice guides should have a story

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Your challenges are always interesting, no doubt about that. :)

Small update, broke it to Hard at level 66. Some gear updates some trading here and there, all seems well for now but I only did the Gahanka, smith and runemaster quests. First few areas shouldn't cause me much trouble (if any) so it's a run for the later regions and for mastery level. Nimonuil managed to kill my elite mount with his "suicide pire" when I got way too close to him, so lesson learnt. The Guardians weren't that hard but I did kill them from a distance in the hallways of the Great Machine, and one by one of course. All spells have been showing improvement, but I really want to see how things will be when can run the triple buff with Conviction. I finally chose my tenth skill and I was very traditional and defensive in my choice for Toughness, for the added damage mitigation.

@Flix - Two things. First I had a really weird movement issue when fighting Baal. Yeah I know he has a root spell, but when fighting him and his clone up and close I got stuck without being able to move sans the rooting effect. I teleported and I couldn't move with the keys or the mouse. I went to the main screen, reloaded the save and went in for the same battle once again. Same thing happened again. I teleported out and rebooted the whole game, went there and flew by Baal for the next save point and then came back for him, this time without any issues. Second thing, I totally missed the Whoops class quest on my run in Normal... Where's the questgiver for that one? I'd like to pick up the shield from the reward.

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1 hour ago, Androdion said:

First I had a really weird movement issue when fighting Baal.

Could it be you got hit by his Arctic Blast? CA's that knock back enemies can cause that permanent freezing. I'd hoped the "Push" spell token from Gust of Wind/Raving Thrust type spells were immune to that, but it could be the same old issue.

1 hour ago, Androdion said:

Second thing, I totally missed the Whoops class quest on my run in Normal... Where's the questgiver for that one? I'd like to pick up the shield from the reward.

Temple of Noriath, the upper-most western corner of Tyr Lysia. It's just north of the guy who gives you the White Griffin quest... quest giver is a priestess.

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Oh I remember that priest NPC, thanks!

I assume that by Artic Blast you mean a big white wave around him. That thing hit my toon on both runs, but on the third one I kept moving away from him, hit and run attacks, and never stayed for too long in melee range so that could be it. It's easy to replicate it, you just need a toon strong enough to withstand his attacks and let him go berserk on you.

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Daughter was able to rescue the old second v12 build with alchemy to the newest changes. She replaced +allSkills/x%damage_fire with the magical damage ones. Instead Holy Fire the third buff is now Holy Freeze. Most enemies move and attack like turtles with weakened stats and speed. Fist of Heavens has 2 pillars up most of the time thanks to stamina potions. Fist of heavens has just CA-level 65. Chance for halve regeneration gear would be just 94% and is not used yet. So the possible damage could be a third more. Would also have a bit longer range.

She parked this character now and is working on the training for the school band for concert in France in January, telemark skiing (there is snow on higher mountains nearby) for the school class visiting Norway in February, ...And then there is this Burgfräulein challenge build ;)

 

 

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In the great words of Professor Farnsworth, "Good news everyone!". :D

Hit mastery level with my toon in Hard in the Orc region and I have to say that the addition of Conviction to the active buffs to make it a tri-buffer (just made that up) has a noticeable impact. Holy Fire can now burn down regular mobs in a few laps around them but elites are still hard to burn down. But then there's Fist of the Heavens bringing down the proverbial rain, and double damage when the burning has done most of its job, and there's nothing that won't fall down eventually. I can land more or less one third of the hits less to kill the same mobs. Like if I had to hit a pack three times now two are enough, and in harder elites the damage dealt is also considerably bigger. I'm going to keep pumping up the Devout Offense Lore and Focus skills to get all the remaining modifications on the CAs because I actually use the entire tree. And with +All Skills at 51 right now even Ancient Magic, the defensive skills and all others that could (should) be at higher levels are working nicely. I'll have to see if I can keep up the momentum tough.

My plan now is to run the remainder of the main quest and get into Nightmare as soon as possible, raise Trading and the Devout Offense skills to 100 each and then start working on the remaining masteries. Since the Galvanic Tiger gives a great boost to Holy Shield I think I can keep raising the damage level by mastering AM before the defensive skills, but like I said I need to see how the scaling goes in a higher difficulty level. Funny thing is that now I can really picture this build differently in a more "tanky" fashion, with Constitution mastery and Thorns to replace Prayer, making it a melee range tank that can soak up and reflect most damage while burning down the remaining HP on mobs. I can see a pole arm build on the rise in the future, with a "chance to hit multiple opponents" modifier being abused, amongst other things. Ok I'll stop now, ha ha...

@Flix - About Holy Bolt, when you nerfed it did you change the amount or extra damage to T-Mutants per level that the silver mod Purge brings? It seems a bit excessive to me on paper but I could be wrong.

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1 hour ago, Androdion said:

About Holy Bolt, when you nerfed it did you change the amount or extra damage to T-Mutants per level that the silver mod Purge brings? It seems a bit excessive to me on paper but I could be wrong.

The damage currently matches the magic damage vs undead on that spell, but keep in mind if you're using Holy Fire, there's a major synergy there, as that buff gives a big boost to all inflicted Fire damage.

I tried to lower them both to equal the damage vs Demons, which was the only value that felt right during testing, but it's hard to match the numbers because for some reason the damage vs Demons spell token needs numbers dramatically lower than the others to deal the same damage.

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Proportionally disproportionate are they?! :huh:

When I get the Purge mod I'll give the T-Pools a run to see how it goes, though I currently need two more modifications so it may take some time for me to report on that matter. The Conviction/Holy Fire synergy made the Carnach Caves feel much easier than before, and in fact it has sped up my grinding dramatically. Since HF now has a bigger impact and most hits of FotH bring down almost everything else, apart from Elites that still need that extra bit of damage, I can now advance more rapidly from one area to the other. I've reached the Swamps now, and I'm curious to see how the toon behaves in the southernmost part of that region.

Oh, having a Torch of Light as my main weapon has been doing wonders. I've upgraded into it from the Shadow Weaver I was using and Hard difficulty has been more accessible, even more with the Herald of Zakarum shield. After my first run with the original v12 settings I've went all in into getting the buff running hot so this build has become extremely focused. Pulse of Time has been another great companion for some time, so I have +20% combat art range. :bounce: Did a small jewellery/socketing upgrade and upped my +All Skills a bit more, now it's taking form and I'm needing separate +Trading gear less and less as well. Ultimately it's going very well so far after a rough start.

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Just hit Nightmare at level 88. A small push forward to level 100 and I can get all modifications on the Devout Offense tree, park Trading at 100 hard points and let the gear do the rest, and start working on other masteries for the 100-200 climb. Currently I have four mastered skills (Devout Offense Focus and Lore, Concentration, Trading).

Two notes:

  1. Now that my toon is proving to be "near-tanky" and able to kill quite fast, what's the best course of action to reach level 200? Quest in both remaining difficulties (Nightmare, Hell) or jump right into Hell and do everything there? Speaking of climbing the 100-200 ladder, I believe there's no negative XP penalty in this mod like there isn't in Enhanced Edition right?
     
  2. This is more of a technicality here. @Flix - Is Conviction supposed to be so powerful as it is by design and/or Diablo canon? Because the fact of the matter is that it's a complete game changer and it makes every spell perform much better than they normally do. The fact that it removes armour and lowers the mobs' attributes makes it tremendously powerful, nearly bridging the (currently with my toon) 12 level gap that Survival Bonus is bringing to the table. Had I realised it was so powerful I probably would've left Prayer behind and concentrated on the Devout Offense tree first, and mainly on Conviction and Holy Fire. It's that good! I can imagine it working great with just about every other buff in the Paladin's roster to be honest.
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18 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Is Conviction supposed to be so powerful as it is by design and/or Diablo canon?

:blush:  Well Conviction is an old favorite of mine, so I may have lavished it with too much affection.  In D2 what it did was lower enemy resistances and enemy defense. I had to come up with the other modifications myself.  Also remember that without a lot of work, the Paladin could only use one aura at a time.  By and large D2 players ignored Conviction in favor of Fanaticism.

I was thinking, the "Sensitivity" portion may be OP, especially since 20% + 1% per level is built right in as a base property. The sensitivity (which is just damage mitigation in reverse) could perhaps be lowered to 10% + 0.5% per level.  This would put more emphasis on the "Lower Armor" portion (which only decreases existing resistances and can't lower them below 0) and then the modifications could be used to boost selected sensitivities more.  I do want to leave the sensitivity in there in some fashion, because in original D2, Conviction COULD lower enemy resistance below 0, and that's the only way to do that in Sacred 2.

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32 minutes ago, Androdion said:

I believe there's no negative XP penalty in this mod like there isn't in Enhanced Edition right?

Well, that used to be true in earlier versions of D2F, but I reinstated the old penalty after the release of CM 1.60. This is because since CM 1.60 all sources of XP per Kill now stack, so mentor potions and experience shrines can be used together to great effect.

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32 minutes ago, Flix said:

I was thinking, the "Sensitivity" portion may be OP, especially since 20% + 1% per level is built right in as a base property. The sensitivity (which is just damage mitigation in reverse) could perhaps be lowered to 10% + 0.5% per level.  This would put more emphasis on the "Lower Armor" portion (which only decreases existing resistances and can't lower them below 0) and then the modifications could be used to boost selected sensitivities more.  I do want to leave the sensitivity in there in some fashion, because in original D2, Conviction COULD lower enemy resistance below 0, and that's the only way to do that in Sacred 2.

That seems reasonable. I mean if you take the "sensitivity" away the buff kind of looses it charm, but I do think the values should be adjusted a bit. Cutting the built-in value to half seems like an easy way to prevent the bonus from growing out of proportion, but I think the other values could use some work as well.

Right now I have Focus mastery with +64 All Skills, so Conviction is around level 75 for a level 88 toon. By the new values that means that the built-in sensitivity still doesn't reach 50%, and to get it to be near 60% (CA level 100) will be a less than immediate climb. That seems fine to me, even with Singe/Chill/Zap in the mix. Now I'm looking at Weaken and Assurance, and by the same math Weaken alone is making the mobs' attributes drop nearly 70% at CA level 75, so by the time it hits CA level 100 the mobs will be as dwarfed as they can be with -85%. Maybe this could be reduced as well, something like 0,2% per level, which would make the drop around 30%@CA 75 and 35%@CA 100. That's already a considerable drop and the progression prevents it from making it too OP. Maybe the base bonus should be adjusted a bit higher as well for a lower CA level to be efficient. Finally, I don't know if you want to touch the built-in "lower defense rating" numbers, but there I have no idea of the base values of the mobs so I can't say if it's good bad or so so.

Oh boy, so the penalty is reinstated. Maybe I should spend some time in Nightmare then, otherwise I don't think I can go past the low 100s.

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53 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Weaken alone is making the mobs' attributes drop nearly 70% at CA level 75, so by the time it hits CA level 100 the mobs will be as dwarfed as they can be with -85%. Maybe this could be reduced as well, something like 0,2% per level, which would make the drop around 30%@CA 75 and 35%@CA 100. 

I do not believe these values will ever add up to 100% reduction, they should give diminishing returns like most other percentage based debuffs.   Still, I'm contemplating removing it entirely and replacing it with a mod that further lowers opponent's defense.

54 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Finally, I don't know if you want to touch the built-in "lower defense rating" numbers, but there I have no idea of the base values of the mobs so I can't say if it's good bad or so so.

Somewhere around v10 or 11 I believe I changed Opponent's Attack -X and Opponent's Defense -X on spells to be percentage reductions, just like the item modifier versions. This was because the flat reduction was OP at low levels and useless at high levels. Also the possibility existed to just lower an opponent's defense to 0.

With the percentage versions, the same rule of diminishing returns should be true here as well.

BTW Wiki still has flat values but in-game should show percents.

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Ha ha, yeah percent versus flat on tooltip and Wiki. Never mind my head being in the air these days, it's work work work, people people people...

Anyway, I think that making Weaken just an extra boost to lowering the defense value will make the CA more balanced, though less prone to be used by casters. Still with Blessed Hammer there's always the chance for a bit of crossover. But it'll be more of a companion buff to Fanaticism and Holy Freeze now. I think it fits.

I remember playing the original SpellForce and there was a Death Magic variant which had debuff auras. One of them was Weaken which did exactly what that silver mod does (lower stats) and to add up to it there was Aura of Suffocation which lowered HP on enemies. That was brutal! I remember playing with Death Magic and Curses (more aura, poison, etc.) and it was a total debuff galore. Death Magic also had single target and Area of Effect damage spells so it was rad! Good times.

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A X-mas wish from my daughter, changing the order of the modifications for blessed hammer:

 

Bronze

Swiftness - Increases the execution speed of Blessed Hammer by 20%.

Clout - Increases the damage of Blessed Hammer by 20%.

Silver

Cleanse - Adds bonus fire damage against T-mutations.

Purify - Adds bonus magic damage against Undead creatures.

Gold

Furnace - Converts a portion of Blessed Hammer's physical damage to fire.

Crucible - Converts a portion of Blessed Hammer's physical damage to magic.

 

Doing the damage convertion last would allow more build flexibility. Currently You have to choose damage convertation to fire or magic before you can choose the other mods. Doing the convertation last would allow builds with:

Holy Freeze, cold based weapon and Blessed Hammer for some x% cold damage

Blessed Hammer with a poison based weapon for holy fire and blessed hammer both doing damage ticks with damage lore

...

 

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