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Great, thanks a lot. The French community has drastically decreased but I'm sure ReBorn mod and HD option will enthousiast new and/or veteran players. Thanks a lot guys.

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This is not a general discussion thread for the mod, but if you want more detailed thoughts from me, many are contained my thread about completing the mod with a Daemon:

 

I've been posting some feedback to the devs in their thread.  Sometimes they respond.

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 11:34 AM, rumalyn1 said:

Thanks guys. I was wondering if this mod will apply to my already saved games?

I think it's late, but yes, you can use all your saves and exported heroes for ReBorn.

But for saves exist nuance:
Saved creatures remember their stats that they had at the time of saving. So they would not be modified or will be modified partially. Some creatures (including some dragons) spawn in the moment when game starts.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2020 at 5:42 PM, belgarathmth said:

I watched a guy streaming this mod yesterday. He was playing a seraphim on silver level, and had developed her Rotating Blades of Light. He also had developed the spell that replaced Lightning Bolt. 

Rotating Blades of Light was doing well over 1,500 damage per tick. The Lightning Bolt was doing about 1,500 damage spread among *all four* damage types. But he never got to test the Lightning Bolt much, because all enemies were instantly dying to the Rotating Blades of Light. This was not good, and he was kind of in disbelief about how bad it was. It was very boring to just run around all over the game with enemies instantly dying, and insane amounts of high grade loot dropping. 

So, he went to several dragons. (Restarted new games importing his seraphim, traveled straight to each dragon.) Despite his Rotating Blades of Light and Lightning Bolts trivializing *every other enemy*, which enabled him to travel freely and unmolested straight to these dragons, the dragons were impossible. Their resistances were inflated so high, he could barely scratch them, while their damage was inflated so high, they could one-shot kill him with a single claw swipe. He tried the two blue dragons in the ice elf area, and the green dragon in the southeastern swamps. All were impossible. 

That means it would be impossible to ever finish silver level and move to gold, because the red dragon guarding the Element of Fire is a required fight. (I know the white dragon guarding the Element of Air can be skipped, as can the undead dragon in the desert by refusing to help the orcs.)

I would be very interested in hearing other impressions of the balance of this mod. Has anyone beaten a dragon, and how did you do it? Has anyone moved on to higher than silver difficulty? Are other people or classes besides seraphim having the issue of becoming overpowered against every regular enemy in the game (they drop instantly)? 

I would not want to play a seraphim having the experience this guy was having, not if 99 percent of the game was boringly easy, and the dragon fights were unwinnable.

Yes this mod is extremely unbalanced, only 16: 9 resolution is good in this mod.

They clearly don’t understand the balance sheet, and the original balance was excellent, why they messed it up I don’t understand. Yes there are a couple of things that can be slightly corrected so that they work, but they ruined the balance of everything.

I do not recommend this mod IMHO, it will only spoil the whole impression of the game.

I asked the developers of the mod if it can leave an HD resolution without damaging the balance, the answer is - no.

 

One example, I played and read the mod EE2.4 by Flix to sacred2, this is the standard for editing the balance,

Edited by ALK

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Yeah, actually the reason I had to stop updating the Dwarf Tales is because the Dragons are so powerful I have no hope of defeating them with the Dwarf.  I was able to knock out D'Cay only by outleveling her by about 10 levels.

I think I lucked out with the Daemon the first time around; they buffed her powers so much that she can use her spells to devastating effect.  But I don't know how anyone could face the Dragons in Reborn in melee.

There's a lot of wonderful changes going on in the mod, it's a shame they felt the need for nightmare bosses.

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4 hours ago, ALK said:

 

ALK, dont you think you go in too hard? Played unmodified Sacred for quite a while until Thorium introduced Reborn. Since then I play it. Ok, the very early versions were a bit clunky, but it became better with each version. And the mod isnt finished yet. I always keep in mind that there is no source code and the team digs through assorted code. I believe in reborn. It will be pretty good when it is finished one day.

 

3 hours ago, Flix said:

 

The Vampire performs well against Dragons using Blood Bite and reanimated Wolf. Later, when you got your specialized weapons ready, you skip all that and go in with Hard Hit or Combat Kick. Melee vs Dragon adds some flavor. Speedy fingers are useful, though.

PS Did you try criticals + widd + as-high-as-possible cannon blast combo? Back in the day I read that cannon blast does unresistable damage.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Dax said:

I believe in reborn. It will be pretty good when it is finished one day.

this is not a problem, someone likes the original balance, someone likes everything redone like diablo 2 sigma xl mod, it’s your choice, but the speakers above spoke about balance problems, and this is only part

Edited by ALK

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8 hours ago, ALK said:

this is not a problem, someone likes the original balance, someone likes everything redone like diablo 2 sigma xl mod, it’s your choice, but the speakers above spoke about balance problems, and this is only part

Maybe, just another method is necessary. I turned all runes I have found into Combat Kick, learned them all and made a combo. Works very well. Runes can be farmed in vast numbers between Silver Creek and Porto Vallum. (The nameless settlement.) Since kill nr. 25 drops a rune guaranteed, you just have to make sure nr. 25 is a boss. Then you get up to 5 runes. A Combo Master is directly nearby and a trader too. One hour of gameplay should be adequate.

 I think that a certain knowledge of your hero is necessary. What are your heros soft spots and what are you good at? Of course I can try to enforce a certain gameplay vs powerful enemies at all costs, but it might end painful. IMHO Dragons are simply a test of your current build.

I will try a Dwarf today. Silver difficulty, cannon combo level 30-50, widd sockets, critical jewelry. Lets see how it goes.

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10 hours ago, Dax said:

PS Did you try criticals + widd + as-high-as-possible cannon blast combo? Back in the day I read that cannon blast does unresistable damage.

No I'm trying to make a melee axe berserker.  Except for Dragons, he does fine against all mobs, he does exceptionally well in fact.  It's just that the Dragons are super-charged to be completely ridiculous.  Some are ok and a little weaker, like D'Cay or the Ice Twins.  But that ones guarding the relics of Ancaria are just insane - Frostguard Palace dragon for example.  I even thought so when fighting it with my Daemon, who cut through most things like a hot knife through butter.

I'm sure there's some power build for each character, but I don't want to be forced into some cheesy niche.  There's supposed to be multiple ways to build each character. Time and time again I try to make a melee character in Sacred and I always end up having to use spells instead because Dragons just shred through you.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Flix said:

No I'm trying to make a melee axe berserker.  Except for Dragons, he does fine against all mobs, he does exceptionally well in fact.  It's just that the Dragons are super-charged to be completely ridiculous.  Some are ok and a little weaker, like D'Cay or the Ice Twins.  But that ones guarding the relics of Ancaria are just insane - Frostguard Palace dragon for example.  I even thought so when fighting it with my Daemon, who cut through most things like a hot knife through butter.

I'm sure there's some power build for each character, but I don't want to be forced into some cheesy niche.  There's supposed to be multiple ways to build each character. Time and time again I try to make a melee character in Sacred and I always end up having to use spells instead because Dragons just shred through you.

So, I used Ufos Hero Editor to create a Cannon Dwarf level 40 quickly. Difficulty is Silver. Cannon Blast is only used as boss killer. I made a level 80 Cannon Blast combo. That would be 2 runes each level in theory. No problem and realistic. Desert Dragon goes down after two combos. No sets, uniques, or special gear were used. While I was fighting my way through the Goblin flats, I had a lot of fun with the Dwarf. Just as you. He is definitely the next on my list, as soon as I got enough of the Vampire.

I want to give Dwarven Armor a chance + Entrench. Combined with a high level Hard Hit combo it will surely work, but I need to find, or buy some special weapons first that cut through the Dragons defense. As MetaL said, you have to know the Dragons soft spot.

I agree that currently the amount of builds are a bit limited for a single character. I have difficulties to variate my Vampires since they depend on certain uniques. Rings, mostly. Currently I got two viable builds, the rest are either tiny variants, or not viable. But I believe as soon as sets get a rework and class related uniques too, the amount of possible builds will increase. Time and a lot of testing is necessary, who am I telling that, and it is of course a matter of motivation. Since I have cursed the game more than one time, I roughly understand how big reborn really is.

EDIT

Tried Cannon Dwarf vs Ice Dragon. No problem.

Edited by Dax

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8 hours ago, MetaL said:

 It's not a something special against you. I made similar videos for few other people before (sometimes even with characters of those people).

Oh, I don't consider you as being against me.  I'll upload my character later and maybe you can tell me why he sucks.  :3lmao:

I think what's striking is that regular mobs feel easier in Reborn (because many player CA's got buffed), while Dragons are more difficult.  So the difference between the two types of battles is more dramatic.  The player can feel "tricked" into thinking their character is good and strong because regular mobs are relatively easy.  And then a Dragon fight comes along and instructs them that their hero is sorely lacking.  :cstars:

In very general terms, I believe that fighting normal/elite mobs should train the player for what they need to do to become strong, and then those skills and strategies can be transferred over into fights against stronger bosses.  Corrections of flaws may be necessary of course, but I think weaknesses in a build should be exposed before a big boss fight stomps you down into the ground.

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Hi Everyone!

This has become a very busy topic with many new, fresh, eye opening points of view :schot:

I've split off the posts from Flix's Dwarf Thread and brought them all into the this Main Topic that we can use for feedback for the Devl's incredible new mod for Sacred Underworld...

Keep on Fans!

:hugs:

gogo

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For everyone! 

No one force you to play ReBorn. You pay nothing for ReBorn. You can immediately stop playing ReBorn if you don't like it.

If you just want some nostalgic walkthrough Ancaria and Underworld campaign and after that abandon Sacred again then you can do it with original Sacred. You don't need ReBorn for it.

If you can't beat ReBorn it does not mean that others can't. Balance mods always was for more expirienced players and you may be not one of them.
All expirienced players that I know likes ReBorn a lot and can't play Sacred anymore without it. And I know them all in Sacred-ru-community because overal Sacred-community is small.
We will never be listen to random beginners whom no one has seen before, who do not understand Sacred mechanics at all, but who are writing an unreasonable negative in spite of this.

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45 minutes ago, MetaL said:

I even can't imagine how killing for example orks could train player strategies to the fight against dragons :lol: It's different enemies with different behavior!
Only fighting against dragons could train player's strategies against dragons. It's like playing the piano does not teaches to play the drums.

It's more like learning to play a small drum being useless at teaching you to play a bigger drum.  Piano would be like a completely different game.

It's the same rules in place whether it's an Orc or a Dragon.  It's the same game, the same "instrument."  Damage vs armor, attack vs. defense, health, WiDD, life leech, it's all part of the same system.  Fights against lesser creatures should be forcing you to grow and fine-tune your character to be an efficient killer who can also survive, based on all these factors.  This in turn prepares you for fights with greater creatures.

Of course tactics will be different in a Dragon fight, that's what makes bosses exciting.  They have patterns, special moves, AI that changes based on what you do (run too far away from Dragons = Meteor Shower death).  And they should take longer to kill so that all those factors have time to unfold.

The balance for Reborn has changed since the very beginning, as needed, based on player feedback.  It could always change again, if you saw fit.  I'm afraid my chiming in with other players has soured my own feedback for you as some kind of attack on the mod.  I have a great deal of respect for Sacred Reborn, and I recommend it everywhere I can.  In fact it's because I'm so invested in the success of the mod that I write about it as much as I do.  This is why this one thing stands out as strange to me, a punishing difficulty spike in what is otherwise a sea of greatness.

1 hour ago, MetaL said:

If you can't beat ReBorn it does not mean that others can't. Balance mods always was for more expirienced players and you may be not one of them.

I doubt I qualify as one of the elite.  Sacred has always been hard for me.  And yet, this mod has had a lot of fun hours to offer me, so I don't regret playing it one bit.  I could in fact, never go back.  :D

Maybe I can approach it another way, and treat Dragons as optional.  I have always delighted in creating very difficult bosses in my mods, so long as they are optional for the player.  The player doesn't have to fight to D'Cay, or any of the Dragon guarding the elements of Ancaria for that matter.  They can always be bypassed.

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Piano's, drums, ...

This is the 21th century electric zithers are the way to go!

I notice when playing with our third daughter that she is not influenced by old guides when playing Sacred2. The older two had english at school, she started with latin, then french... So she has the great experience to play a game where all is new for her. So it is not like reading all the guides and discussions to re-play the best character stated in a forum. It is to do own mistakes and ideas and just having fun.

When I try a new mod I have to hammer my head against a wall several times to free my mind from outdated knowledge. Ten years ago I was a student, trying to understand the game. Now I am a professor (grandpa) and I can order my students (kids) to research an idea I have ;)

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5 hours ago, Flix said:

It's more like learning to play a small drum being useless at teaching you to play a bigger drum.  Piano would be like a completely different game.

No. It's all music instruments. Small drum in this case is dragons in original Sacred. Bigger drum is modded dragons. Piano is like other creature type.

6 hours ago, Flix said:

The balance for Reborn has changed since the very beginning, as needed, based on player feedback.  It could always change again, if you saw fit.  I'm afraid my chiming in with other players has soured my own feedback for you as some kind of attack on the mod.

When someone told us about problems we check it out. If we can't disprove it and problem really exist then we do something. It may takes time but it's reliable way.
More often we just playing our mod and change things that we think should be changed.

I'm ok with your feedback :gogo:. I speak with you and even made video for you :).

But what I really don't like is that someone told stupid nonargumented things or nonsense arguments. Pretty fun that one of these people just watched unknown stream and now talk badly about ReBorn. And another one is russian whom noone knows in ru-community and whom think that original Sacred have excelent balance, but for some reason he interested in mod like ReBorn and decide talk badly about ReBorn (maybe he just offend that can't play with HD or maybe he just banned in ru-community and tries revenge).

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18 hours ago, MetaL said:

When someone told us about problems we check it out. If we can't disprove it and problem really exist then we do something. It may takes time but it's reliable way.
More often we just playing our mod and change things that we think should be changed.

I'm ok with your feedback :gogo:. I speak with you and even made video for you :).

Thank you.  All my criticism is coming from a place of great fondness for the mod.  I will find a way to adjust to the challenges, as always.  :bye:

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At first I thought this sounded amazing and was just about to give it a go but after reading through the thread I can't make sense of what this actually is.

I'd like to just play Sacred with the HD mod but no other mods or changes. Is that possible?

It's been a while, hi to all at Darkmatters :bye:

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