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"Splash damage" in Sacred 2


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You all know the term "splash damage" from the gaming world, and my recent experience with Dungeon Siege 2 has made me consider its possible usefulness in Sacred 2. I'm not talking directly about Area of Effect spells but more about weapon effects or CAs that make you hit several enemies at once, thus providing "splash damage". The name of the modifier in Sacred 2 is "chance to hit additional opponents".

So, to break it down more easily:

  • Are there any weapon-based CAs other than the hybrid Magic Coup on the High Elf that allow this from the start or with a modifier (in this case Stray Damage)?
  • In terms of weapons, are the only ones able to do this effect pole arms and throwing potions? And is the modifier regulated by the proper weapon lore skill?
  • Which spell-based CAs do you think are the best in terms of this effect? For instance the High Elf's Ancestral Fireball can also be modded like that. Are there any others?
  • Do you think this modifier is powerful enough to be an important part, if not the basis, of a build in Sacred 2?

My main idea about this came from D2F v.12, when we were discussing Paladin builds. And the idea of using a pole arm Paladin tank with Holy Freeze and an emphasis on slowing down approaching mobs and hitting them all with splash damage and successive hits never left the back of my skull. What do you think of it, feasible or too centred on a single aspect to be efficient?

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Hello Androdion!

I can give you some feedback if we are talking about D2F, don't remember much about vanilla sacred tho.

3 hours ago, Androdion said:
  • Which spell-based CAs do you think are the best in terms of this effect? For instance the High Elf's Ancestral Fireball can also be modded like that. Are there any others?
  • Do you think this modifier is powerful enough to be an important part, if not the basis, of a build in Sacred 2?

If you are looking for splash damage and variety of CAs your best bet is the sorceress, nearly all of her CAs have or can be modded to do splash damage (the exception being enchant and energy shield, even teleport can be modded to do splash damage), and yes it is a viable build, I have a level 89 sorceress mainly focused on splash damage and CAs regeneration and barely get scratched cause anything in my general vicinity gets repeatedly blasted right away.

3 hours ago, Androdion said:
  • Are there any weapon-based CAs other than the hybrid Magic Coup on the High Elf that allow this from the start or with a modifier (in this case Stray Damage)?
  • In terms of weapons, are the only ones able to do this effect pole arms and throwing potions? And is the modifier regulated by the proper weapon lore skill?

About melee CAs I'm not really sure, does CAs that do single attacks on multiple enemies count? I had a dexterity based dual wield melee amazon and could dish out some serious pain with multiple arrow/strafe and elemental arrow (both can be used with melee weapons) in a somewhat wide area around her and barely get hit cause of high defense rating/evade.

Edited by Tharkun
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Great topic.  I would love to someone make a pure Blessed Defense Paladin in D2F.  I'm sure it's viable.

Weapon CA's that have area splash or can gain it from modifications in D2F are:

  • Smite
  • Poison Dagger
  • Whirlwind (innate)
  • Double Attack (innate)
  • Elemental Arrow
  • Dragon Flight
  • And the Assassin's battery left-click attacks (innate)

This doesn't include spells or those weapon CA's that are just designed as multi-hit, e.g.,those based on Darting Assault, Scything Sweep, or Ruthless Mutilation, which just have a baked-in area of effect.

 

Splash damage will appear on the following Uniques & Legendaries (not locked by a weapon skill):

  • Blind Guardian (2h sword)
  • Windhammer (2h Hammer)
  • Axebot 2525 (1h axe)
  • Sudden Fury (Fist weapon)
  • Warshrike (Throwing Dagger)
  • Rakescar (1h axe)
  • Ravenclaw (1h shortbow)

It appears on the following Pole Arms (locked behind the Pole Arms skill):

  • Trychelion's Pole
  • Impaler of Heroes
  • The Osiris Scythe
  • Waton's Dreamblade
  • Can also appear on any tier of random Halberds or Poles (but not Javelins)

It appears on the following Sword Weapons (locked behind the the Sword Weapons skill):

  • Maul's Saberstaff (2h lightsaber)
  • Troll Carver (2h sword)
  • Sword of Rebellion (2h sword)

It appears on the following items (locked behind the Ranged Weapons skill):

  • Cougar's Paws (Amazon set boots)
  • Forest's Legacy (blow pipe)
  • Essence of DarkMatters (throwing potion)
  • Light of Earendil (throwing potion)
  • Molotov Cocktail (throwing potion)
  • Noisy Cricket (energy pistol)
  • Can also appear on any tier of random Throwing Potion or 2h Energy Weapon

The above weapons list should applicable to Enhanced Edition as well, though some D2 item recreations wouldn't be present.

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4 hours ago, Tharkun said:

If you are looking for splash damage and variety of CAs your best bet is the sorceress, nearly all of her CAs have or can be modded to do splash damage (the exception being enchant and energy shield, even teleport can be modded to do splash damage), and yes it is a viable build, I have a level 89 sorceress mainly focused on splash damage and CAs regeneration and barely get scratched cause anything in my general vicinity gets repeatedly blasted right away.

Thanks for the reply. :)

I've checked the Sorcerer's CAs and I think I may have mislead you. Like Flix pointed out I'm excluding Area of Effect CAs and focusing on single-target ones that can inflict "area damage" when they hit. I know it seems like the same thing but it's not. I know, I'm a complicated guy. :D Think of it like the Sorcerer's Fire Bolt (Explosion bronze mod), Lightning (Explosion gold mod) and Teleport (Explosion gold mod). Funny, the modifications all have the same name and effect. Basically my idea is to target a single mob and hit the surrounding few in the process, with the help of the modifier "chance to hit additional opponents" triggering. Glacial Spike's Pierce mod could be seen as the Ranger's Penetrate skill in DS2, but I'm thinking more about its Shockwave skill you know?

3 hours ago, Flix said:

Great topic.  I would love to someone make a pure Blessed Defense Paladin in D2F.  I'm sure it's viable.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you mention it that should prove to be an interesting challenge to use a single aspect triple buff toon. Except there's so much raw power in other trees on the Paladin that I don't know if I can resist using them, ha ha. I'd have to make a drawing based on what skills are needed to see if multiple aspect use is possible. Blessed Defense has a super cool tree but not one offensive spell. Now you got me thinking. :D

4 hours ago, Flix said:

Weapon CA's that have area splash or can gain it from modifications in D2F are:

  • Smite
  • Poison Dagger
  • Whirlwind (innate)
  • Double Attack (innate)
  • Elemental Arrow
  • Dragon Flight
  • And the Assassin's battery left-click attacks (innate)

So:

  • Smite (Impetus silver mod)
  • Poison Dagger (Ire gold mod)
  • Elemental Arrow (Exploding Arrow gold mod)
  • Dragon Flight (Momentum silver mod)
4 hours ago, Flix said:

Splash damage will appear on the following Uniques & Legendaries (not locked by a weapon skill):

  • Blind Guardian (2h sword)
  • Windhammer (2h Hammer)
  • Axebot 2525 (1h axe)
  • Sudden Fury (Fist weapon)
  • Warshrike (Throwing Dagger)
  • Rakescar (1h axe)
  • Ravenclaw (1h shortbow)

I don't see it on the BG sword, did you make any changes to it in D2F? Also, are the items other than Axe-Bot and Sudden Fury only present in D2F? I'm assuming they are since I can't find them in the Wiki. All the other items you've listed are present in vanilla.

So it's pole arms, two-handed swords and throwing potions. And the more investment in the appropriate weapon lore skill the higher the percentual, same for the ones bearing the modifier unlocked. I guess this does point out to a heavy investment in a few skills, hence the single aspect toon gaining some strength. One other thing though, will multi-hit CAs trigger the modifier per hit making a cascade of splash hits? For instance, a Paladin with an Impaler of Heroes equipped casting a Zeal. Will the chance to hit additional opponents trigger on each separate hit of Zeal? If so then the single aspect is definitely out as I can see the cascading effect lighting up in my brain. :drool:An energy gun build would also be very very interesting with this concept in mind. Oh my, the possibilities!

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I gave a cursory peek at all the vanilla CAs and these are the ones that seem to fit the bill:

  • Ravaged Impact (Blast gold mod)
  • Mind Strike (Expansion silver mod)
  • Demonic Blow (Vehemence bronze mod)
  • Ancestral Fireball (Explosion bronze mod)
  • Cobalt Strike (Explosion gold mod)
  • Magic Coup (Stray Damage gold mod)
  • Shadow Step (Explosion gold mod)

I guess that Dislodged Spirit (Wildfire gold mod) and Frost Flare (Icy Circle gold mod) could also qualify, though in the case of the later it doesn't actually cause damage. More like a splash freeze effect.

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5 hours ago, Flix said:

Great topic.  I would love to someone make a pure Blessed Defense Paladin in D2F.  I'm sure it's viable.

For a splash damage build tactic lore seems to be a must have. So we will have modification points outside the blessed defense tree. Another problem is that a dropping energy shield removes the freeze buff. Would be better if holy fire from another tree would be dropped. Freeze is a defensive buff and two dropping defenses is dangerous. Holy fire is offensive so it would be only less damage if energyshield drops.

So a pure build: no tactic lore, nothing in the blessed defense tree doing damage except converting and reflecting... Left click build with splash damage and no tactic lore or combat discipline to boost the damage, hmmm

Think it could be done since there are so many defensive skills free to include in this build. But it would be a slow killing I fear. Allowing Tactic lore would make it very viable I think.

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5 hours ago, Androdion said:

I don't see it on the BG sword, did you make any changes to it in D2F? Also, are the items other than Axe-Bot and Sudden Fury only present in D2F? I'm assuming they are since I can't find them in the Wiki. All the other items you've listed are present in vanilla.

I would reference the Visual Guide for D2F weapons:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXXP3Exg5v4YmZqel9FcWV4VVE/view?usp=sharing

Blind Guardian and most 2h weapons got increased number of modifiers/sockets, same for EE.

Windhammer is a renamed Extremely Mighty Bat of Devastation.

Warshrike, Rakescar, and Ravenclaw are D2 recreations.

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It's been a while since I looked at those pics. :)

854701981_swords2h02blindguardian.jpg.44db4f10407a1301c5acf7035ae52df8.jpg


Regarding Holy Shield+Holy Freeze, if the idea is to use Thorns I think a toon could live without HS. That would warrant another type of defensive skill set present, but I think that a triple buff with Holy Freeze/Thorns/Fanaticism is a good way to go. And yes, Tactics Lore will be a mandatory punch to the damage output, which will also allow for modifications on the Sublime Combat tree. @chattius Do you think this type of "splash damage" build would be possible with vanilla I&B as well, given the list of CAs and weapons that bear this modifier?

@Flix - Do you have an answer for the Zeal question I made above? :blush:

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28 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Do you have an answer for the Zeal question I made above?

Oh yeah, of course each hit from a weapon CA counts as a hit capable of triggering any "on-hit" modifiers.

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16 hours ago, Androdion said:

 @chattius Do you think this type of "splash damage" build would be possible with vanilla I&B as well, given the list of CAs and weapons that bear this modifier?

My old I&B builds with splash damage:

The Kungfu-Dryad from I&B used Ravaged Impact with the Blast modification: exploding double-hits when right hand unarmed and shield in left. Used death blow, so first hit brought normal enemies in deathblow range for second hit.

The Lady in Black, an energy pistol pure arcane high elf shooting magic coup exploding projectiles ;)

Feldwebel Chattius (did I ever write a guide for this?). Using only a shield like Captain America, the kungfu dryad idea as a Shadow Warrior. The invisible buff modified for quick running because x%Lifeleech was from a set which hadn't run speed.

...

 

So back to the pure Holy Defense build. Converting weapon damage to ice so holy freeze boosts the damage, a lot death blow socketed, a lot +x-x damage, a lot x% damage, .... We would have not much +ca-range. so the slowing of holy freeze may not reach distant mages, ...

If I would use the items collected over years in mule characters...

Kira Shield and shield lore to protect against melee and ranged.

The expulse magic god with its skill to fight mages, .... But you have to make sure you finish a fight in 12-17seconds.

...

I am quite sure how I would make the first 8 levels...

Divine devotion ---- god power every 3 minutes. Login on Hell diff and buy relics with divine devotion (should be +10 or 11 each)

Holy Defense focus ---- modify holy freeze first

Blacksmith  ---- forge in hell diff, for opponent can't evade and x% damage

Concentration ---- second buff

....

But then which weapon type for splash damage?

 

Our new singer barb finished hellfire arena on easy at level 9 with god power, grimward, howl(modded) and melee. So the start with divine devotion isn't the worst.

 

 

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I had read your Kungfu-Dryad guide a few times before but I wasn't aware of the Lady in Black one. That's way before my time here. :D Seems like something I've played with many times before, with some slight differences. I guess I've always played melee Magic Coup, but from a certain point in time I started using Shadow Step as an offensive tool as well. But I guess I must've overplayed the HE because I have no desire of doing it yet again. I also remember trying out your Captain America idea with a Shadow Warrior and it was really really tricky, not an easy build in the slightest. Do you think it's possible to extrapolate the Captain America build into a triple buff Barbarian in D2F? It definitely fits the "feel" of playing an old barbaric warrior focused on shield techniques. Interesting...

In terms of vanilla CAs I guess that the Shadow Warrior has potential with Demonic Blow, maybe finally do a dedicated war axe build since there are two-handed axes that only the SW can use like Bergonix' Judgement or Regnif Dlog's Goldbringer, plus there's always a slot available for pole arms as well. I think a compromise would have to be made since two weapon lore skills would probably be too much on a single build, but I've seen stranger things than that.

Holy Defense build then. When I envisioned it I thought about it a bit differently than you did, more in a way of letting your opponents get closer to your thick tanky skin only to be drawn to a crawl by Holy Freeze and smacked in a cascade of multi-hits by the synergy between a pole arm (or two-handed sword really) and a weapon-based CA. Reflection from Thorns would keep those random hits at bay and provide both a defensive and offensive measure while they'd suffer from splash damage. I know I know, the modifier for hitting multiple enemies has to proc, that's why this would require mastering the weapon lore skill early on, and therein is a possible problem. But then again I grew so accustomed to not using a weapon lore skill in this game (damn you HE builds!) that it'd be a breath of fresh air in the way I play. That's why I wouldn't mind forgoing Holy Shield at higher levels because the idea is to let the mobs be around you, kind of like a sneaky trap from where they just can't get away. So my idea is not to up the CA range in order to snipe them from afar, more like the opposite. High level reflection paired with mastered Constitution and Toughness should do the rest. But I know you think differently and that you also like the particular challenge of playing it differently, that's kind of your thing. :)

Since we're at it, going on between vanilla and D2F, does anyone have more ideas for similar builds in the mod given the "splash CAs" available? For reference, these are the ones:

On 5/14/2020 at 4:45 AM, Flix said:

Weapon CA's that have area splash or can gain it from modifications in D2F are:

  • Smite
  • Poison Dagger
  • Whirlwind (innate)
  • Double Attack (innate)
  • Elemental Arrow
  • Dragon Flight
  • And the Assassin's battery left-click attacks (innate)

 

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I read you. Still, with Double Attack and Whirlwind wouldn't the Barbarian have a way of handling himself well in Captain America mode? They also have mods for extra base damage and double hits, so it'd be a good way to increase the damage output as well. And I've just noticed that the Clip silver mod for Frenzy enables "chance to hit additional opponents", so there's that for splash damage. I can also see Battle Orders' Bronze mod War Song and silver mod Implacable being a good help with more damage and a better chance to hit.

So I guess it could be done but just not with the double hits? It would be a really slow burner I guess.

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Hum ... I am a bit confused whether that thread is solely focusing on the diablo mod or if it also about sacred 2 too in general.

Which reminds me, Seraphim has a "splash" damage modifier in archangel's wrath. 

My highest level seraphim is using it with great success ... not to mention as a mostly pure caster build, it gives her access to weapon based damage attack and item modifiers :)

What I am not sure with those modifier (+%chance to hit more than one enemy) is whether the + to combat art range helps there or not. It might seems that it does (again based on my high level serphim) but I am not sure. Maybe someone here will confirm :)

 

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It's about both vanilla Sacred 2 I&B and the Diablo 2 Mod. :)

You're correct, Archangel Wrath's silver mod Explosive also grants that modifier, I missed that one. Regarding the +%combat art range I couldn't really say. I'd be inclined to say no, but there's this idea in the back of my mind about Frenzied Rampage, which works like Pelting Strikes and targets further opponents when the first dies, having an execution range. Flix should be able to answer that better than me.

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I just read spell.txt from D2F again

Quote

mgr.defineSpell( "dr_hu_konzentrierterangriff", {
    eiStateName = "cSMDrKonzentrierterAngriff",

mgr.defineSpell( "dr_hu_wirbeln", {
    eiStateName = "cSMDrKonzentrierterAngriff",

And yes, both combat arts have the same animation ;)

The animation isn't that important, but both will do a double attack when right hand empty and left hand a shield.

The CA replacing wirbeln is elemental arrow which can be modded for splash damage.

So the Amazon has three and not only two CA's with kungfu attack animations.

So a Kunoichi Chiyome build should be possible.

 

Now I have to use my mental powers to force a modder to add a tessen as a shield item ;)

 

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I've been giving the "Splash Paladin" (tm, because well... I mean come on :D) a go. Good old times coming back and thanks Flix for the Diablo mod that brings new content into these old bones.

Anyway, the build is working so far. Still a bit slow but it's been gaining some momentum ever since I've moved from shield+weapon to a pole arm. At level 18 I chose the respective weapon lore and shifted from Fanaticism+Conviction to Fanaticism+Holy Freeze. I was using Holy Shield but I've managed to survive without it ever since. I've been kiting and doing hit-run attacks more often than not, but Smite really is the centrepiece of this build. Never would've guessed it, but when I eventually did I modified it even before Zeal. So Concussion->Impetus->Surprise for stun->chance to hit additional opponents->chance opponents cannot evade, which results in splash damage+stun with a great chance of success. Very very nice, and works great alone or in a combo with either Vengeance or Zeal. Next in line is Blessed Defense Focus at level 25 for modifying Holy Freeze, which I suspect will make a really big difference. The silver mod choice is killing me though, but I think I'm settling with Congeal for an added stun chance and try to increase the buff's range via gear bonuses.

So far so good. If anyone else is playing with splash damage in either vanilla I&B or in D2F please post your feedback here. :)

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Master Chattius, a few questions. :)

Do you think a build with pole arms and Holy Freeze can be used like a BFG build, and thus focused mainly on a single damage type? One thing about the BFG is that when you use conversion damage on gloves you can shift its damage into something else, but since Holy Freeze only boosts Ice damage using the gloves will have little effect right? So how can you boost your damage on other channels when you resort to Holy Freezes as a main part of your gameplay? I was thinking about spamming Vengeance since it's a four channel CA, but I'm not sure if it'll work. An I still miss Poison damage even if it does. Any ideas?

One other thing, still about damage conversion. How do you use damage conversion on a Weaponless Ninja and/or Captain America build? Do you have to use specific shields that have built-in elemental damage and boost that damage channel?

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Ghosts are immune to poison, energy being are immune to cold, ... but nothing is totally immune to physical in the original game. Also using the complete Dethaya for the dryad helps in giving x% life leech. Ravaged Impact for a ninja is modified for splash damage, armour piercing and open wounds. So I works quite well actually. Shields with buildin damage came in a CM-patch after we played the spidergirls and captain america. 

What I want to know is: if blessed hammer using a weapon with splash damage will also do splash damage?

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8 minutes ago, chattius said:

What I want to know is: if blessed hammer using a weapon with splash damage will also do splash damage?

Interesting question indeed!

Forget Vengeance, the percentual elemental damage unarmed is very low and it only adds that elemental damage to a weapon that only has physical damage according to the tooltip, and even then it's still negligible. As for the pole arm thingy I think I do need a Danse Macabre or something like that for enemies that'll be heavy on the ice and physical defenses. Or for foes that just hit very hard very fast.

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1 hour ago, chattius said:

What I want to know is: if blessed hammer using a weapon with splash damage will also do splash damage?

It carries all weapon effects.

54 minutes ago, Androdion said:

Forget Vengeance, the percentual elemental damage unarmed is very low and it only adds that elemental damage to a weapon that only has physical damage according to the tooltip, and even then it's still negligible.

What? It adds flat elemental damage to the attack, then boosts the total damage by a percent.  The extra flat damage used to scale to be absolutely massive in earlier releases, effectively doubling the base weapon damage at high levels, even before the percent boost, so I had to scale it back a bit.

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42 minutes ago, Flix said:

It carries all weapon effects.

I can see where this is going, Holy Freeze with pole arm, Blessed Hammer for snipe attacks and a huge +%combat art range. Yummi. It's a shame that I didn't think of it before. :lol:

When I mentioned Vengeance it was in order to have an elemental damage source other than ice while running Holy Freeze and an ice jewel socketed in my pole arm, but with that damage conversion the tooltip for Vengeance in the inventory states that the damage of the CA is physical+ice. Only if I use a weapon with just physical damage will the tooltip show the physical+ice+fire+magic percentages. So that actually defeats the purpose of my original idea, which was to keep running the pole arm socketed with ice, plus Holy Freeze for damage boost, plus spam Vengeance for multi-channel damage other than physical and ice. It doesn't work that way according to the tooltip.

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