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Schot

Requiem Dice Etiquette for Rare Items

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Something that was never there before has suddenly cropped up in Requiem and I must admit I'm somewhat baffled by it's appearance. I'm really not sure what to think so I'm curious about others takes on this.

 

Don't roll if the item is not for your character. That's the deal and if you don't abide by this expectation you could be in for a royal tongue lashing, lol. My experience with this was a bit of an ugly one unfortunately. While partying with ganto and enci as well as three others this new rule popped up out of nowhere. For me this was something new and was not something we did during the open beta. We were in Ruins of Lament for item farming. Lamenting armor is highly sought after and Ruins of Lament is where you get it. You need at least 4 players in a party in order to handle the battles. Three bosses will grant these wonderful drops and it was the first boss that brought on mention of this rule. We killed the boss, it dropped a Lamenting Sound armor and we all rolled the dice for our chance to win the item. It was a melee player in our party who won the armor and for which he would not likely wear the Lamenting Sound because it is more geared towards magic class. At this point a player in our party who was a magic class said something to the effect of, "Great, another ^&%$&%$# dumbass who rolls for something he doesn't need..." The player being insulted only replied with "ok" and then he left. And he had the key to the next door which meant we could no longer progress. We had to start over. Before we began our next run however I felt it necessary to state that I had full intention of rolling for whatever dropped. The player who complained earlier stated some random insult and said that I would be on their block list. Hmmm, ok. The complaining player then left the party and I must admit I was happy with that.

 

This rule of "Don't roll if not for your class" deal has me in a real bind. I've given it some thought and I'm still of the belief that if I am working hard in the party then I have the right to a chance for ANY item. I don't think I should have to explain my reasons for why I want such and such an item but there are many. I could be farming for a different charatcer of mine. I could be farming for a guild mate. It whats more is that there is always a chance that an item for my class will not drop in a single run. I don't do Lamenting Ruins runs often so a single runs counts for a lot. Whats more is that if I get a magic geared piece I can always trade/exchange it for a melee version.

 

All in all this rule demands you to be generous. Personally I like to show my generosity based on my own free will. Not on the expectations of others. It's no longer generosity at that point.

 

Granted. When it comes to the D.a.r.k family only runs I am going to thoroughly enjoy exercising my generosity at every possible chance. But there are times, and players!, when I will not want to be generous.... Especially in cases where a player refuses to work as a team player and disrupts the game play.

 

Thoughts?

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That is actually a general rule of thumb with in MMO's. In WoW it is a big insult if a item drops and a played rolls for it and cant use it at all. When Items like that drop> If no one can use then by all means roll for it. But if there is a class that can use it. then by all means let them have it. A general rule of thumb that I have learned since playing what is considered a true MMORPG is need before greed, which simply put is this is there someone in party that can use this. Is it better than their current gear. and lastly are they just here for xp. Yes there are times to just flat out roll on everything. Also rule for a run should be stated before the runs of dungeons and instances. To save the party the troubles you had seen. I realize we come from a small gaming community of sacred and the rules are different. It was a major culture shock to me when I went to these styles of gaming. But all in all they share the same type of gaming standards and edict. Do I agree with how he acted no.

Do I generally agree with this type of gameplay, to a point I do. I can see where you are coming from. But this player is also one used to playing a game like WoW where in some of the items are BOE (bind on equip), or BOP (bind on pick up) items like something that is BOP I can see letting go to some one that needs it. but if it is BOE hell yeah roll for it.

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I"m not very good at reading minds, and so I'm going to have to assume that everyone that does a run does so for their own reasons. It could be for that particular toon that's doing the run...maybe not. I don't really care, lol , I never did, I just wanted to play for the chance to get anything.

 

I'm thinking that me making any sort of assumption about why a person does a run, is a kind of judgement...something I"m not fond of doing.

 

The only thing I'm sure of, is that everyone who does a run does covet the chance of winning a roll for whatever item is dropped. If everyone contributes, I think everyone should get a chance at the roll, as determined by the gaming mechanism.

 

I'm not sure if I want to figure out why anyone wants the piece...whether to sell it after, trade it...whatever.

 

But, they did win the chance to roll, and at the same odds as everyone else. For me to say that a reward goes to someone only because they are a specific class when they were in the party, limits the creativity and my belief in them regarding what others may choose to do with what they've won.

 

Because I'll never know why anyone else wants an item, but do know that they win themselves a chance to win an item...to do with whichever way they please...even if I lose out and never get anything, I'll still feel happy that I won myself the chance to roll...and that's why I run the ROL runs...

 

To simply earn the chance to roll...and then distribute, trade, give away...at my own discretion.

 

I would appreciate the faith placed in me that if someone asked me for a piece because they needed it to compete a set...

 

I would give it ^^

 

Of course, I've seen peeps trading for items after the run is over, and that's awesome. It's about the person winning something..anything..and then being creative in his use to add it to his build. Whether through friendship, clan, funny jokes, money another item piece...that to me is all fair, because you've got the person who won something transforming it into gain for himself through trade.

 

 

 

Of course, if I'm playing with clans or friends, it's always an honor to help someone else out with their build, through my choice. And giving each person the choice and chance to willingly contribute to someone else's build this way, gives honor to the trade, and makes peeps feel good about sharing.

 

I'm for everyone rolling, all the time...with friends...everyone gets what they want, and everyone gets the thrill of getting a piece...and then having the opportunity to do good with it after.

 

:)

 

gogo

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Schot, you were correct to roll on whatever you wanted to. Although EvilMale is right that there are a few things that need to be considered when you are in a PUG ( Pick Up Group -- Random People ). If you are leader, set your own rules in regard to who rolls when. If people have a problem with it, it may be nescesary to kick them before beginning. In an MMO.. there are plenty of people to fill a party with, usually. Now, if you are Not the leader, then hopefully he will tell you what his own rules are. If he doesnt, it is FFA to roll on whatever you want. If you feel you need something, roll Need. To avoid trouble, you could ask him if he has any rules, but thats not your own responsibility. If there were no rules, you roll on an item for another class, and feel that you want to keep the item, do it. If a rare item drops ( BOE, not BOP) and the party hasnt really discussed much at all, heck roll Need. There is more likely than not somebody else in the party who is going to disregard the rules and roll Need. So if everyone but One person follows the rules, then he gets everything, which isnt fair. ANyways, its all about talking to the people. If they leave the party, Great! Its better to get rid of them sooner rather than later ( ex. They have the key to the door :) )

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Schot, you were correct to roll on whatever you wanted to. Although EvilMale is right that there are a few things that need to be considered when you are in a PUG ( Pick Up Group -- Random People ). If you are leader, set your own rules in regard to who rolls when. If people have a problem with it, it may be nescesary to kick them before beginning. In an MMO.. there are plenty of people to fill a party with, usually. Now, if you are Not the leader, then hopefully he will tell you what his own rules are. If he doesnt, it is FFA to roll on whatever you want. If you feel you need something, roll Need. To avoid trouble, you could ask him if he has any rules, but thats not your own responsibility. If there were no rules, you roll on an item for another class, and feel that you want to keep the item, do it. If a rare item drops ( BOE, not BOP) and the party hasnt really discussed much at all, heck roll Need. There is more likely than not somebody else in the party who is going to disregard the rules and roll Need. So if everyone but One person follows the rules, then he gets everything, which isnt fair. ANyways, its all about talking to the people. If they leave the party, Great! Its better to get rid of them sooner rather than later ( ex. They have the key to the door :hugs: )

 

 

Exactly Monster! I completely agree.. It's a limited thinking..of scope...to think that people do runs solely to complete a piece for their own armor.

 

What happens if you have a toon that already has all of their armor...are they then entitled to keep picking up doubles and then selling it for profit whilst another contributing toon in the party, n'ever gets a chance at one of the drops...solely because they're the wrong class?

 

:)

 

 

Meawhile the player that's collecting doubles is laughing because a limited rule allows them to farm at a monstrous advantage, whilst another player contributes and gets nothing.

 

:o

 

There is absolutely no fairness in this at all. And this thinking comes about because people, perhaps, aren't seeing that any item that drops, no matter what class it drops for, can be traded into something of equal value via markets, friends, clans...anything.

 

Let everyone roll for the sole purpose of rolling for opportunity..the opportunity to win an item that can be traded, transformed anything, which then keeps them wanting to return.

 

Game mechanics allow ultimate random distribution.

 

Let the players after they have had their chance to roll and at least feel that they had a chance to win something feel good about the time they've put in, and then use the opportunity that they've fairly won to better their toon.

 

 

 

:)

 

gogo

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Very good comments and mine is just a quick note. :)

 

I havent had to contend with this"rolling" before because in Guild Wars drops are tagged as to who gets them.

 

I think that pugs are pretty much every dog for themselves.

If you have to roll for an item then I think that everyone in the party has an equal right to.

Then if someone asks you nicely if you want to trade or something you can at your discretion.

Of coarse as was suggested you can make rules at the start of the run, but then what is to stop someone from ignoring the rules after they get what they want.

 

Clan and guild groups are totally different however.

Everyone seems to want to give away their stuff if its of use to someone else :hugs:

 

stubbs

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You are absolutely right that the roll on need rule doesnt make much sense, because everybody could be equally happy if we just rolled for everything. However like it or not, it does exist as an unwritten rule, and if it has a purpose than it is to help tell who the nice players are. Never played any other mmorpgs before, so I dont know how it works, but I simply consider it a general act of courtesy. I will continue to roll on need and ask everybody in parties to do so.

 

We’ve reached the point when we can farm Sanctum or RoL or lower level dungeons for us Darks only, and we can pass down items, so the supply of goodies wont be a problem at all. And having set up a guild, I don’t think that greed rolling gives us a good name. We can ignore the "Don't roll if not for your class" but it still exists.

 

The case Schot mentioned was unfortunate. I really enjoyed playing with the said player during the beta, but she has quite a temper indeed :) We should have set up the rules before even starting out.

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Monster summerize my point of view really well - though the WoW mentality fails some here as I have yet to see a BoP or BoE item drop. The whole thing of passing down items etc is one of the things that makes this game great I think - like sacred we can share items between us easily.

 

Personally Im against greed rolls and will like enci ask others to do so but at the same time I dont mind being in a party where everyone rolls for everything, ill just do the same then but as so many already said its up to the group or party leader to decide beforehand else someone is bound to get upset once the rolling start :hugs:

 

And gogo has a valid point also about picking up doubles, the need rule is obvious for leather and cloth and later class specific items but there is no way to tell if the item rolled for was an upgrade and really neeeded or just a fake greed in requiem. In wow you could inspect any player anytime to see what he was wearing making such behavior more difficult as then all know if he had better items equipped than what he rolled for. Still possible to fake though but ofc much harder.

 

But as schot and stubbie said about playing with the clan and friends thats how you solve issues like this :) - you just stay away from pickup groups all togheter

Edited by ganto

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Oh how I hate to be in disagreement... :) Especially when it comes to the fact that all hope of seeing enci in a bunny suit might be lost, lol.

 

I'd like to point out at this juncture that this is ONLY a discussion. What we have are a collection of opinions and being human we will always be at the mercy of differing opinions. Now I knew from the start when this discussion began that there was going to be a slight conflict in gaming style and so I've prepared the perfect solution... I just need to reprogram you all to myyyyy thinking. Mmmhhmm. Pretty sure I can do that. *checks programming manual* Yup! ;)

 

Seriously though. The topic is here so that we can resolve this difference in a civilized fashion. *cough* Food fight to the death! *cough cough* What we "might" need here is a compromise. As it is I am still strongly against the use of this BOE/BOP derived rule. BOE/BOP simply does not exist in Requiem and that is only a starting point.

 

Now then. My opinion by no means will dictate any sort of tantrum or grudge holding but I do continue to push the point because I am seriously concerned here. This conflict of game practice is really going to affect how we party. I mean as it is with "beliefs" laid out will I, with the belief of rolling for whatever, still be welcome into a party enci is leader of? Yes you have to answer that enci, lol. I'd rather found out now than to be stuck with an awkward moment in game. :unsure:

 

This is how I see things at the moment and I'm going to be fairly blunt. At this point "beating around the bush" will do us no good at all.

 

You are absolutely right that the roll on need rule doesnt make much sense, because everybody could be equally happy if we just rolled for everything. However like it or not, it does exist as an unwritten rule, and if it has a purpose than it is to help tell who the nice players are. Never played any other mmorpgs before, so I dont know how it works, but I simply consider it a general act of courtesy. I will continue to roll on need and ask everybody in parties to do so.

 

We’ve reached the point when we can farm Sanctum or RoL or lower level dungeons for us Darks only, and we can pass down items, so the supply of goodies wont be a problem at all. And having set up a guild, I don’t think that greed rolling gives us a good name. We can ignore the "Don't roll if not for your class" but it still exists.

 

The case Schot mentioned was unfortunate. I really enjoyed playing with the said player during the beta, but she has quite a temper indeed :P We should have set up the rules before even starting out.

 

I stroooongly disagree with the statement that this "unwritten rule" is an indication of who is nice... More on that is I find the statement particularly manipulative. The statement not the person. I really hope I read that wrong but what it speaks to me is that if I do not follow this way of thinking then surely I must not be a nice player. I've seen that sort of statement before in many shapes and forms and it's widely known as peer pressure. A statement made to impose conformity among those who have a different belief. And I have never done well with peer pressure. Again, I'm hoping I completely misunderstood and is merely a case of me putting my foot in my mouth, haha.

 

I'd like to point out that Need before Greed(Read WoW wiki's explanaition) is a system derived from a game that has BOE and or BOP. Frankly... The use of this rule in a game where no BOE/BOP exists does appear to me to be an abuse of the rule. Far better I think that we trust in ourselves to give an item when asked by a player that really needs the item I would think. Surely we have proven what "nice players" we are over a thousand times in Sacred? Handing out items freely not only to our friends but also to stangers.

 

Now for duplicates. How is this matter being resolved? Since out of all of us I'm pretty sure you both, enci and ganto, have the most experience with doing PUG's in the Ruins of Lament for rare items. I can only assume that you have already experienced the opportunity to roll for an item you already have. So if an item drops of which you already are wearing do you tell the party that they may roll for it? As I understand it with this "unwritten rule" it is also customary to say "Need" if you need it or "Greed" if you don't intend to wear it. Is this being practiced?

 

ganto, I couldn't agree more when you say having the ability to pass items down to others is such a great game feature. It's something in Sacred that really made it an amazing game. More even that it helped to make the awesome community it is. I would love to have this opportunity with any item be it a melee rare or magic. On the terminology of "Greed Rolls" I find it also a bit inaccurate. The reasons for my wanting to roll on whatever item is either so that I can convert what I would not wear into what I would which = need or to be able to give it to someone in the guild. Certainly not greed. The word Greed I find does not accurately reflect my motives and leads me to believe that it is language generated long ago in a different game to influence others to conform. But if we wanted to get right down to the veeeery bottom of things then I would have to say it's ALL greed.

 

In the case of a rare dropping that is the same as what you have but better stats I would think that all would roll. The winner could then trade the wanter thereby the wanter would have a nicer stat rare and the winner would still have something of value to make use of. In the end sharing the fun of winning an item as well as sharing the wealth.

 

I don't know but I'm starting feel some red flags pop up which has me concerned somewhat. I do think we need to find a common ground though otherwise partying could be unnecessarily complicated.

 

Big time love all around! Again this is only a discussion not a court room for passing judgment. :blush:

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I still agree to some points of this Schot. and like I was trying to point out yesterday that yes there is this rule and some people do take it seriously to the point yes it can ruin gameplay.And to the BOP/BOE I was just using a general example, on how this rule came about. I completely understand both sides of this argument and or situation. We are agreed that in Sacred its a really great community where its share and share alike.

 

And in all my gaming experience it has been one of the best communities around. But its a small pond compared to the true MMO's. I have seen both sides and have experienced both. Do I completely agree with these unwritten rules. No I do not. But one thing That I have seen work is like I stated yesterday. There needs to be some general guide lines to runs. Be it your doing a farming run and you need a full party and then the rolls can be set up to where every one rolls. or if your farming for a specific class then it should be need be for greed.

 

Yes I do also understand your point of "What if I am farming for another toon" which can be the case. Then what I would suggest is this. Don't invite outside the guild/clan. Make your dungeon runs clan only. This has worked on several occasions for me with WoW, AO (anarchy online) and several other MMO's that I have played. This way farming can be kept with-in the family and no outside interference can ruin game play.

 

Once again I am sorry you and the others experienced such a poor players attitude. Its people like that I generally have nothing to do with in dungeons and or instances. I don't want them in my party and I generally kick them. no matter of how good the player is.

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Oh how I hate to be in disagreement... :) Especially when it comes to the fact that all hope of seeing enci in a bunny suit might be lost, lol.

 

I'd like to point out at this juncture that this is ONLY a discussion. What we have are a collection of opinions and being human we will always be at the mercy of differing opinions. Now I knew from the start when this discussion began that there was going to be a slight conflict in gaming style and so I've prepared the perfect solution... I just need to reprogram you all to myyyyy thinking. Mmmhhmm. Pretty sure I can do that. *checks programming manual* Yup! ;)

 

Seriously though. The topic is here so that we can resolve this difference in a civilized fashion. *cough* Food fight to the death! *cough cough* What we "might" need here is a compromise. As it is I am still strongly against the use of this BOE/BOP derived rule. BOE/BOP simply does not exist in Requiem and that is only a starting point.

 

Now then. My opinion by no means will dictate any sort of tantrum or grudge holding but I do continue to push the point because I am seriously concerned here. This conflict of game practice is really going to affect how we party. I mean as it is with "beliefs" laid out will I, with the belief of rolling for whatever, still be welcome into a party enci is leader of? Yes you have to answer that enci, lol. I'd rather found out now than to be stuck with an awkward moment in game. :blush:

 

This is how I see things at the moment and I'm going to be fairly blunt. At this point "beating around the bush" will do us no good at all.

 

You are absolutely right that the roll on need rule doesnt make much sense, because everybody could be equally happy if we just rolled for everything. However like it or not, it does exist as an unwritten rule, and if it has a purpose than it is to help tell who the nice players are. Never played any other mmorpgs before, so I dont know how it works, but I simply consider it a general act of courtesy. I will continue to roll on need and ask everybody in parties to do so.

 

We’ve reached the point when we can farm Sanctum or RoL or lower level dungeons for us Darks only, and we can pass down items, so the supply of goodies wont be a problem at all. And having set up a guild, I don’t think that greed rolling gives us a good name. We can ignore the "Don't roll if not for your class" but it still exists.

 

The case Schot mentioned was unfortunate. I really enjoyed playing with the said player during the beta, but she has quite a temper indeed :P We should have set up the rules before even starting out.

 

I stroooongly disagree with the statement that this "unwritten rule" is an indication of who is nice... More on that is I find the statement particularly manipulative. The statement not the person. I really hope I read that wrong but what it speaks to me is that if I do not follow this way of thinking then surely I must not be a nice player. I've seen that sort of statement before in many shapes and forms and it's widely known as peer pressure. A statement made to impose conformity among those who have a different belief. And I have never done well with peer pressure. Again, I'm hoping I completely misunderstood and is merely a case of me putting my foot in my mouth, haha.

 

 

You’re right, I see it as a peer pressure in Requiem at least. Any etiquette is nothing more than peer pressure. Nobody is obliged to conform though.

 

“Nice” was a poor choice of words. Let me clarify.

 

As long as there are people in a party following this “rule” or whatever, I consider it unfair and disrespectful towards them to do otherwise. But I do agree when you say that much depends on the circumstances. If the sole leather user in the team refuses to cooperate and gets us wiped several times, I’ll roll on “his” items just to decrease his chances. Been there, done that. If a party refuses to respect this rule then I won’t play the martyr and I’ll start rolling on everything too. However if only some of the party members go against it, they do get an unfair advantage.

 

And as much as I’d like to avoid offending anyone, that’s pretty much how I feel about it. and I’d beg everyone not to take it personally, if anyone does, then I’m sorry, but I can’t really help feeling this way.

 

That being said, the whole issue is not something I’d argue over even with random people, and especially not with you guys. I don’t think it’ll be a problem at all in our parties, we share items as needed anyway. So to answer your question Schot, yes, you are always welcome in my parties, lol. You are welcome because I know you to be kind and generous. Did I know you only by your rolling habits, I’d think twice, I admit. Why am I always the party leader btw :unsure:

 

However we’ll have to agree on some sort of rule each time when partying with others and that’s not going to happen without forcing everybody to the same camp. Or somebody will get offended, and I think that’s what we’re trying to avoid here. As I said I don’t have particularly strong feelings about it, I’d like to expect everyone to follow my way, but if anyone here disagrees I will hold no grudge, because I know everybody here as kind and generous.

 

My question is though, and Schot, it’s your turn to answer...

Is it really too much to ask for? Running the same dungeon over and over again is time consuming, tiring and even boring, Im perfectly aware of that. we all want to get the maximum result out of our time invested. But it is still just a game, we can farm as much as we want, so is it really worth to possibly offend that stubborn group of people who don’t mean to get any advantage but hold themselves to an etiquette?

 

Beyond that there isn’t much I can add as it is quite pointless. Etiquette tend to be

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Now.. ive been somewhat hesitant to add more to this topic than what I already did, simply because I am new and most of you were simply stating how you have 'grown up' learning to roll, etc. And then some of you have slight ( yes, they seem pretty small to me, considering you all seem to be reasonable people ) disagreements that werent really my business. But I'd like to kind of.. put up what I would consider fair rules for a closed party ( closed as in guild only ). Now these arent really the rules that you would all be following, especially considering it is just Me, a single person, putting together what I consider fair rules for others, but it would be a good guideline.

 

- Everyone wants to get something out of raiding. ( Excuse my terms, I mean raiding as in a dungeon, or farming for loot ) Fun, crafting materials, quest items, rare drops, experience, fame, character advancement, and various other reasons are all good reasons to join up! Now, if you are just in the raid for fun, then great! But if you want a rare drop.. thats something else. Other people may want that same rare drop. Because this is a guild-only group, I am taking into account that everyone is pulling their fair share of the group, and so that item is in actuality up for grabs by any member of the party. Now for experienced MMO'ers, lets put behind us the 'class' argument, and lets focus on guild groups.

 

Quick scenario here, and then ill move on: A rare dryad bodyplate drops. The only dryad in the group does not have the piece, wants it, and will therefore roll for it. Now, there is also a shadow warrior in the group who wants that piece. ( I will not take into account any previous raiding where he either got good pieces or not ) He rolls and gets it. Now, this shadow warrior IS in the guild, right? So if he wants to just give it to the dryad, fine. It would help further the guild. ( keep reading before jumping to conclusions) If he wants to keep it and sell it.. Well, fine. It would help further the guild. Whether the dryad gets the armor, or whether the shadow warrior gets money, somebody becomes better. ( Personally, I am for guild sharing. You dont just sell something if somebody in the guild could use it. But not everyone is, and so to keep the peace, not everyone has to. The dryad could simply buy the piece off of the shadow warrior for a possibly reduced price, or something, idk, but they shouldnt be forced to do anything )

 

- So that about takes care of items.. WHich was our main focus.. ANd im tired of writing.. So. Thats all :blush:

DISCLAIMER: Im tired, long day, I may have written something I didnt mean. If you STRONGLY disagree, read it again. Then once more. And heck highlight it and read it a third time before arguing against it. And before any of you possibly get angry ( I doubt it, but I dont know 3/4 of you ) I will henceforth fake an unstable state of mind so that you may not sue me. flkdsanmfjkdsngfhsgdk :unsure:

 

As I see it, its better not to try and protect a person who doesnt yet exist from getting upset by having others roll on "their" items, at least until we find a person who truly believes that it is their right. Because at that point we could specifically discuss the issue with him or her, rather than debate amongst ourselves the viewpoint of this person who doesnt yet exist

Edited by monsterstorm

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I just want to add that this discussion isnt unique in anyway, most guilds have it and the only way to really solve it is to implement a rolling system and use master loot. Not sure this is for us as we are such a small guild and only consists of friends from the forum so far. But a large guild with many players need a more strict system - the most common one is the Dragon Kill Points (DKP) and then there are several vairaints.

 

In short it works like this that you earn points by attending raids and events that you then later can spend on items that drops. Example) RoL with 2 bosses where first is worth 50 and second 75. Number is based on how many items that drops and also how sought after they are. An item would then maybe cost 200 points and if several wanted to buy it they either roll for it or the one with most points get it. Confused? ..lol ..I am too.

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I've read this thread and have to say I am disappointed. :gogo:

Disappointed that we as a clan are having this discussion and the way its turning out.

 

My idea of a clan or guild is that we all work together to help everyone achieve what we want.

 

My goal in any game is simply to have fun.

I don't want to be the number one best out there. I really don't care how people outside of our clan behave.

 

All I want to do is play and if I'm able to join my clan mates and together do whatever we can do to help each other then that's a great day.

 

If I decide to join a pug then I know it will only be for a short period and whatever behaviour takes place is just something to laugh about, and maybe have a grumble about in game.

There is usually very little mateship in pugs. Sometimes you may find a nice person and sometimes you may not.

But most times you will find that people just want you for the moment.

 

My point of view is that this is just a game. If I can help someone, if I can give someone something they need, if I can swap my sword +1 for their dagger -1, then I will.

What happens in pugs should be a thread for "lets tell about stupid moments in pugs"

We know and respect each other in our clan.

What happened to schot is to be expected in a pug. If it happened in a clan gathering then it would be a different matter.

 

Unless I am reading this thread the wrong way I think it might be best for me to leave the Dark Requiem guild.

 

I'm playing this game for fun.........I really don't see the need for all this. :P

 

stubbs

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Unless I am reading this thread the wrong way I think it might be best for me to leave the Dark Requiem guild.

 

I'm playing this game for fun.........I really don't see the need for all this. :P

 

stubbs

 

No no, you have it all wrong :P

 

Like schot said when he started this topic was to have a discussion where we could vent our opinions on this subject. We all have one :) The Dark Requiem guild is in its current form just an easier way to chat and keep track of us all. No future plans exist at the moment thus we dont have any rules and are not bound by the clan rules set by FDM as its not an offcial guild.

 

My point is that you can play and act however you want, be it roll on items or not. But also should you feel that you want to be in a more "normal" guild feel free to do so also, its ofc totally up to you if you want to stay or not though I hope you will :)

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Please, stubbie, there’s really no need to leave. I’m pretty sure we can resolve this.

 

Also I don’t think we need an in-guild item distribution system just yet, we’ve always been able to share loot very fairly

 

However I don’t agree that we can ignore how everybody else behaves outside our little guild. There is simply so few of us that we can’t run an instance on our own even if everybody is online. For some reason I usually seem to be entrusted with inviting people, so I try to expand my friends list with players I’ve enjoyed partying with. Yet I’m not comfortable inviting them for our runs as I know that all of them oppose greed rolling. So no, until we have a healthy amount of players, we can’t just ignore others. We can also invite random people (as we usually do) but same issue may arise anyway and I’d rather have reliable players in our group than those who will potentially get us wiped.

Beside, for a few more weeks at least, I’m planning to play quite a lot, outside of our regular timeframe, so I’ll have to resort to pick up groups.

 

And this might have been the real question here, yes, I’d be more comfortable wearing a guild tag that doesn’t say ”roll for whatever”. I know I can’t force everybody here to agree with me especially not with good heart, but it really wouldn’t like to leave because of this. It’d hurt a lot. And you’re not getting rid of me this easily anyway.

 

So my humble and temporary suggestion would be something like this:

 

Do large scale farming in guild only groups. Until we have a tank (monster, I’m counting on you :P) lets farm lower level instances only. I’m reporting for duty for as many Sanctum runs as you wish Schot.

 

Monster’s right, let’s not set up a general rule for partying with others, let each group decide what will work best. You know where my vote will go, but I won’t whine if the group decides otherwise. However I beg you Schot that time if a party is strongly for roll on need, reconsider your stance. If only for peace’s and a good party’s sake. I really consider it a small gesture that helps to create a much friendlier atmosphere. This game is supposed to be fun after all. Now if it doesn’t work out we’ll try to resolve it on the spot, because arguing about principles here will not lead to anywhere. And this whole issue will cease to exist once we have just a couple of more players anyway

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My point is that you can play and act however you want, be it roll on items or not. But also should you feel that you want to be in a more "normal" guild feel free to do so also, its ofc totally up to you if you want to stay or not though I hope you will :P

 

I have no idea what a normal guild is but all I want from a guild is to play games with mates :)

 

Mates help each other. Guild mates help each other. Clan mates help each other.

That's why we have places like this.

 

I still subscribe to the way of thinking that as a guild we are happy to give rather than receive to our mates.

 

and pugs are just a bunch of people that don't give a rats bum who you are. ;) and we really should be grateful if they behave in any other way.

 

 

and I suppose to get back on topic

........if I am to continue to play under the Dark Knights banner I will be playing with the respect that the clan deserves.

That will mean that if I play with a pug I will ask what the drop rules are before joining and if I play with clan members I will give up any item that another wants,,,,,, because thats good karma. :)

 

Its only a game :P

 

stubbs

Edited by stubbie

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I have no idea what a normal guild is but all I want from a guild is to play games with mates :)

 

Mates help each other. Guild mates help each other. Clan mates help each other.

That's why we have places like this.

 

Then Dark Knights is the guild for you!! :P That is exactly why we created this guild :P

 

And also "normal" I meant guilds like the official Dark clan with set rules - ex like the no overspawn rules, applications etc.

Edited by ganto

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like when we were killing zebras a little bit ago! Helpin a guildie out, thank you.

 

That's what made the game for me tonight.

In some small way I think I helped a guild mate. It was great playing in a party where the peeps were well...nice.

That was better for me than any amount of levelling I have done or any drop I have received.

 

Gogo even went one step further. He hang around while I had computer problems to give me a great staff. :P

 

For me that's what online gaming is all about. Its helping each other.

 

So my final comment is that whatever happens outside the Dark guild doesn't really matter.

If we join a pug then expect that anything can and will happen when it comes to drops.

 

But surely as a clan we can all agree that when playing together we will happily give to a mate rather than need rules for drops. :P

 

stubbs

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lol Evil. Culture shock indeed! Agreed that we need to establish an agreed upon approach to guild only runs and that we should try to do item runs with the family only as much as possible. enci makes a good point though that we are not yet large enough to always have enough to do Lamenting runs. Time and organization will certainly change that. ;)

 

Very good example monsterstorm and that is exactly my way of thinking as well.

 

Ah stubbie. I understand how hard it can be to read this debate. A bit heart wrenching but it's really ok. There are certainly strong points of view here and it's these kind of debates that require great courage I think. But don't dismay in the thought that this is something that tears D.a.r.k apart. I find it's these talks we have that actually really solidify us. Think of it as growing pains. :)

 

 

Regarding your question enci it would no problem at all for me if I were to join a party of any kind that was for "rolling on class items only" I certainly would not make a scene. I would either accept the terms or I would gracefully bow out using some believable reason like "omg! My parents just arrived and my hot date isn't fully dressed!" Haha. But yes, I do believe it is too much to ask. I understand that you feel very strongly about the approach your taking but understand I feel equally towards the opposing approach.

 

Farming Sanctum you say? I'm all for that! :)

 

Bringing discussion into focus now. This is really about how WE will play together. In guild only runs.

 

I am faaaaar more for the approach of trusting eachother. Trust in that should we get an item that a different class would wear we would happily ask if someone really needs. Trust in that one who's class could wear the item would honestly answer yes if they need it no if they don't. Trust in that the recipient of said item would make the attempt, only if they have something, to give something in exchange. Trust in that as a whole we would go out of our way to help eachother as a team be it through items or any other way.

 

Trust. This whole deal of don't roll is to my mind completely built on a lack of trust. And it also seems to me based on people not being satisfied with their equal and fair chance on the game designed dice roll. Personally. I have noooo problem losing an item for my class to someone who would not wear the item. Is it any different than losing said item to a player who could wear it yet only intends to sell it? Can't see any difference there... Again, I am perfectly ok and confident in simply rolling for whatever. If I don't get that Cry piece I may get a Sound piece and the two of us simply trade right there in the party. Piece of cake. Why complicate things?

 

If the sole purpose of abiding is simply to appease a "part" of the population then I'm afraid that is a poor reason indeed. In fact I don't think I have read any other reason for rolling on own class type drops except for the one. "Because everyone else is doing it". This point will never come across as a strong one. And it simply isn't true. An inaccurate statement at best.

 

So true ganto that this whole deal of squabbling over how to distribute is a plagued debate abound. I did a google search of "Need before Greed" in the hopes of enlightenment only to become more confused than before, lol. Omg it is insane how this debate has gone on throughout the net. There are infact several practices on item distribution. By and large spawning from WoW.

Have a read for yourselves if you like:

Google results "Need before Greed"

Why "Need before Greed" doesn't work I read this as well as the linked to article within it and didn't really help me at all...

 

I think a very simple in game function has been exasperatingly complicated. There are several approaches. All of which no group or another does oppose.

 

Once again I am completely comfortable with an equal chance at everything. Why aren't others?

 

An example from Open Beta where these no found expectations did not exist in Requiem:

 

I'm playing with a group of people. I'm a Rogue. I roll for a Lamenting Sound item which I would not wear. I win. I go to Nova Lux announce that I want to trade my Lamenting Sound for a Lamenting Cry item. 10 minutes later I get a PM wanting to trade and I get a very nice Lamenting Cry. I'm soooo happy!

 

Pretty simple I think. And among ourselves it will go even better I have no doubt.

 

 

I think a great deal of perspective has been donated to this topic and would like to move for closure on this sticky situation. I'm exhausted! :P

 

I move that in guild only runs we roll everything and trust in ourselves to do good.

 

In parties that are not all guild I move that before the battle gets underway we will vote upon a system.

 

 

Honestly, no hard feelings at all. This is D.a.r.k and we've always talked things out. Sometimes we disagree, strongly!, but we're all big kids here. We know eachothers feelings are genuine. :P

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Well, lol...I've looked through every post in this thread, and read each one thoroughly. Other than, "Everyone does it, so that's why we have to do it" or " It's the way things are" I still haven't seen a real reason as to why we should roll only for our classes, and in fact, I still haven't been convinced of a single benefit.

 

Our community has tons of reputation, it's not something I've ever been worried about, and it's not something I'm going to take up.

 

I also believe we're smart peeps who try to examine carefully anything they do before they do it, and have genuine, personal reasons which they can write about here as to why they do it, while understanding its impact to it's immediate community.

 

I've looked so carefully at the reasons for why toons should only roll for their own class, and I'm really sorry... but I just don't see anything that makes sense to me.

 

And saying we've gotta do it because this is the way it's been done in the past...well that's never been the D.a.r.k way.

 

Give me a good reason, a genuine reason. Tell me something that will convince me against all of the detailed problems and gripes here listed by Schot, and the majority of peeps on this thread...and, because I pride myself on my flexibility, I'll definitely jump in and support a new proposed rule.

 

But I'm not convinced, though. So at this point, I'll have to say that when I'm playing with D.a.r.k members, I'll be rolling on all items, as legally supported by game rules. And if we're a mix of D.a.r.ks and others, I will inform everyone in the party that I'll be rolling on all items, as I honestly believe I've won the opportunity fair and square, and I haven't yet been convinced otherwise.

 

Course, after the drops land, and my gut tells me I got my fair chance, it will be and has always been my absolutely sincere wish , to be able to share all of the wealth with all of you, the clan, and all our friends here on this site and the many, many more that we'll meet.

 

But then...that's just always been the D.a.r.k way :oooo:

 

So alright, whew...this has been a long thread and a great debate... I've said my piece on it.

 

Into the servers!

 

:twitch:

 

gogo

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Ok, (got guild master cap on :oooo: ) let me try ending this as I think its needed to conclude this thread somewhat. The general census puts us in 3 camps, those in favour for rolling on everything, neutrals and then those who favor only roll on needed items. I also think its totally opinion based discussion thus presenting any case that will swing the other side over isnt really possible.

 

So, lets decide for our guild that we let the party set the loot rules (as suggested by several) , be it guild only party or random group and live with that we have different opinions and respect that, its up to the individual to decide if he wants to party or not. If we later see that this isnt working out well we can bring this topic up again.

 

Now lets continue and have fun on the servers and keep the FDM spirit alive in the guild ....weeee :twitch:

Edited by ganto

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Woo Hoo

 

Game On!

 

:twitch:

 

gogo

 

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