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From what I gathered since then, I have to say that AW fails alot less then the Chance to Hit displayed on my character sheet. This just perplexes me more, but the failrate is low enough for me to be able to compensate with high damage whenever I do hit. As for being a melee before 50, that's really not how things where for me. I was able to go all out caster by level 15-20, but then I skipped General Skills in the early levels and played on Silver. I really don't think that the concept is flawed; as I reached above 30 the build flowed really nicely (with the AW fails as the only drawback). My only concern with the guide is that I think that it should mention this problem and discuss it.

I covered this in the first post... By the information provided in this thread I would go as far as to say that Arrant Pyromancer Expertise is better, mostly because Fiery Ardor scales badly with other %damage multipliers. I picked the mod for my own HE and by what I can see so far, there's no regretting it (Thou I should say that I have NOT tried the other option). The "Regen is not a problem" -concern is a bit moot, since we can just consume or socket more runes.

On the subject of using IS vs Bosses, are there any concrete information on where one would keep the regen time in order to keep channeling all the time? I was trying to find out how long the channeling duration is earlier, but I failed. Neither have I been able to find this information anywhere on the net... Does anyone know?

I played around with a Revered Technology Seraphim yesterday and even thou I enjoyed it, I was annoyed by the fact that Archangel's Wrath constantly failed to deal damage. At first, I dismissed it as a amimation bug, but that simply did not hold when only every 5th or 6th AW connected against the Griffin. I reasoned that he could have some sort of Chance to Block Combat Arts, but the failrate seemed too high and I figured that I should have noticed when fighting him on other characters. Eventually, after trying out 3 other bosses, aswell as many creeps, I was convinced that my AW was actually missing the target, while the animation never did (I had the Lock mod). I then glanced at the character sheet and noticed that Archangel's Wrath displays my Attack and Defense values, instead of Spell Intensity. This smells "This Combat Arts chance to hit is based on Attack rating" a long way... Curiously, I want to know how to deal with this. Bosses simply isn't working out as it is now; I can't really claim to kill them in 10 shots if I need to fire 50. I have been considering switching Cleansing Brilliance and Celestial Magic Focus for Battle Stance and Exalted Warrior dito, just to stop missing all the time. What are your thoughts on this problem? EDIT: My Seraphim just died due to not being able to damage bosses with Archangel's Wrath. This build is in need of a update.

While I agree that this can be a good idea for most comparisons, it doesn't quite get that simple. While Fiery Ardor indeed retains the value of +50% fire damage from any source, Arrant Pyromancer Expertise cannot really be measured that way. First of all, the way -%regeneration time stacks means that we cannot just add say, three -10% regeneration time rings, and consider them equal. We'd say that it is equal to, for example a -%15 and a -18%, or, a -5% and a -26%, but as you can see, the total value differs and we cannot quite put a definitive "socket value" on the mod, only a rough value. It should also probably be mentioned that due to the multiplicative stacking, Arrant Pyromancer Expertise is always worth another 30% off, which means that you do not really "replace it" with rings, in any case, while it is possible to do that with Fiery Ardor.

Exactly the kind of info I am looking for, thanks. This also means that some of the possibilities that I listed are invalid. I'll correct that. This is indeed a good argument and one of the reasons why I am leaning more and more towards declaring Arrant Pyromancer Expertise as the better choice, as it provides full benefits to all fire CAs.

I suppose it is time to mention that I presumed no change in level, gear or skills for this math, only the increase in CA level. The basic point is to find a way to translate the gains of the two mods into the same resource, in this case damage. If we imagine a character, that has a complete gear set with no empty sockets, and we grant that character the Arrant Pyromancer Expertise mod, would we not increase it's damage by "eating" runes if the goal is to reach a point where the regeneration time has returned to where it was before? If we consider empty socketets/gear upgrades, I would imagine that it favors Arrant Pyromancer Expertise as we would be able to add twice as much damage to the CA before the regeneration time has reseted. Although I think that it is hard to apply this sort of comparison on that situation.

I haven't seen any concrete proof that any choice should be better then the other, so I figured I'd reboot the subject with some input of my own. Earlier, I was about to pick this mod for my HE when it occured to me that choice was not, like most mods seems to be, between two entirely different things. I reasoned that if one can assume that the ratio between a CAs regeneration time and damage does not change as more runes are added to the CA, the two mods will improve the character in similar ways. If we for example assume that a CA has the damage X and the regeneration time Y: - Should we pick reduced regeneration time, we'll add more runes until the CA reaches regeneration time Y again, thus increasing X. - Should we pick increased damage, we'll not add more runes, keeping Y at the same value and thus increasing X. This means that, as long as one are in possesion of the runes, skills and gear to support it, the two mods provide the same benefit. What I wan't to know here is, which one increases the CAs damage the most? I'm trying to get to a simplified answer with the math below. Once again, I assume that the ratio between damage X and regeneration time Y remains roughly the same as we add more runes. If we pick Arrant Pyromancer Expertise: The regeneration time of our CA becomes 0.7Y instead of Y. If the ratio remains the same, we can assume that the CAs damage will rise to X/0.7 = 1.428X when we have added enough runes to return the regeneration time to Y. This means that we can say that Arrant Pyromancer Expertise adds 43% increased damage, to compare with Fiery Ardor. If we pick Fiery Ardor: Two things may happen. My rather limited knowledge of the game prevents me from know which one is correct. (If you know the one, please tell me) 1: The damage incrase is additive It is first added to any other possible damage increases, then this total damage increase is multiplied with the CA base damage. If this is the case, the total benefit will diminish the more of these damage increases the player has. It would be enough to have 20% from other sources to put the total benefit from Fiery Ardor at 0.5/(1+0.2) = 0.417 = 42% and thus have it be worse than Arrant Pyromancer Expertise. 2: The damage increase is multiplicative It remains a 50% boost for all situations. Proven to be false Similar math for the scaling parts of both mods: For Arrant Pyromancer Expertise, There are several possibilites aswell (Once again, please enlighten me) 1: The base regeneration time bonus is increased by 1% for every rune. This would lead to a 100% reduction at CA level 70. Not likely. 2: A 1% reduction in regeneration times are added for every rune added to the CA. If we assume a level 50 CA, the bonus is 1-(0.99^50) = 0.395 = 40%. This number would make the total bonus from the mod 1-(0.7*0.6) = 0.58 = 58%. Rewritten as a damage increase, it would be 1/0.42 = 2.38 = 138% damage increase. With the same formula the bonus at CA level 100 would be 1/(0.7*(0.99^100)) = 3.906 = 290% damage increase! More likely, but still very high. 3: The base regeneration time bonus is increased by 1% for every rune, but there is a hidden formula for diminishing returns. Or, well, hidden for me atleast. For Fiery Ardor Once again two possiblities: 1: The increase is additive Thus the increase will be 100% at CA level 50, 200% at 100 and so on, although suffering from the same form of diminishing returns as the base portion. If we consider having 50% increased damage from other sources, the bonus becomes 2.5/(1+0.5) = 1.667 = 167% damage increase at CA level 100. Plausible. 2: The increase is multiplicative The damage increase will grow abnormally. For example, at CA level 100, the damage increase would be 1.5*1,02^100 = 10.867 = 1087% increased damage! Proven to be false Please post your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks a bunch, I think I got my build all planned out now. I'll be sure to return whenever I am in need of help. Thanks again, and hopefully I won't forget to sleep this time around...

Hi guys! I recently started playing this game, it really has me hooked now and I am looking to start going through the campaigns with a friend starting tomorrow. (I haven't even been outside Tyr Lysia yet ) So, after poking around a bit with the various classes and builds I decided to play Pyro HE while my friend plays as SW. Moving on to the point, I am way to lazy to find out for myself what the best build is, so I decided to go with this one. However, being a nogood know-it-all kind of messerschmidt, I refuse to conform to following guides blindly, so here a a few quick questions to get me started: 1: What are the exact benefits of Bargaining? The gain displayed in your charts seems ridiculous. 2: I'm not really into getting Cobalt Strike, mainly because I don't consider the spell "fun". Is it needed in certain situations, or just a flavor? If the latter does that mean that I can grab some other skill then Delphic Arcania Lore? 3: Why should I not get Combat Discipline? It seems useful, could you enlighten me on the subject? 4: The Gold mod on Incandescent Skin, what does it do? does it increase the damage Incandescent Skin deals, or all Fire damage while the buff is active? Thanks in advance!