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To answer the question about whether BaseCombatArtLevel includes equipment bonuses or not (because I wasn't sure either), I made the following test: To summarize: We have a combat art level of 51 (HCALWP) and increase it by +6 through equipment, resulting in a final level of 54.2. If BaseCombatArtLevel is 54, then the calculation result becomes 35709.09 (1811.09 higher than the reference value) If BaseCombatArtLevel is 55, then the calculation result becomes 35071.42 (1173.42 higher than the reference value) If BaseCombatArtLevel is 56, then the calculation result becomes 34456.14 (558.14 higher than the reference value) If BaseCombatArtLevel is 57, then the calculation result becomes 33862.06 (35.94 lower than the reference value) If BaseCombatArtLevel is 58, then the calculation result becomes 33288.13 (609.87 lower than the reference value) Given that 57 is the closest to the reference value, I assume that it is the correct value and that BaseCombatArtLevel includes the bonus from equipment. For idbeholdME's case, it doesn't matter what the BaseCombatArtLevel is, because the part ceil(CharacterLevel / 3) would still be lower. Unfortunately, the difference between the calculated result and the reference value is bigger than I initially thought. Sometimes the result is lower, sometimes it is higher, but the difference becomes more pronounced as the numbers get bigger. It could still be due to rounding error(s), as small differences can have a compounding effect, but it bothers me. Edit: If we don't round down BaseSpellDamage, but instead use it as is (491.75), then we get 33913.79 (15.79 higher than the reference value). If we want to blame rounding errors, then our result needs to be higher than the reference value. The displayed final damage is 34390. If we remove the displayed damage bonus, we get 492. It is strange for a value to be rounded up. Using 492 in the calculation results in an even higher number than with 491.75.

Turns out it indeed is. Finally had some time for tests. 6 normal hits, 8 crit hits. Before: 684 STR, 347 bonus Double bonus, so 1365 (closest possible due to SB). 695 bonus. Achieved by dumping 516 points into STR, 684 STR: Normal - 17034, 18966, 17661, 20243, 17346, 17638: average 18148 Crits - 23748, 25070, 23245, 23879, 23943, 24598, 25124, 24537: average 24268 1365 STR Normal - 26735, 26806, 23642, 24932, 26799, 24044: average 25493 Crits - 29669, 30012, 30861, 31563, 29147, 28765, 28617, 30675: average 29913 Conclusion - dumping 516 points into STR, more than is available in the entire 200 levels your character can gain (401) netted a 40% (probably too high due to small sample size) increase in left click attacks and 26% increase in critical hits. Seemed about 20 or so % for Pelting Strike hits. Not as worthless as previously thought, but still extremely lackluster. EDIT: Larger sample size: 684 STR, 347 bonus: Normal - 20221, 19805, 22191, 18318, 19807, 21029, 17125, 20810, 16770, 16746, 17450, 21324, 20574, 19917, 16397, 20393, 17115, 20081, 21108, 20101 - 19364.2 average Crits - 24036, 24347, 24556, 24236, 24394, 25242, 23419, 24062, 25313, 24023, 25402, 24155, 23810, 24676, 24029, 24275, 24107, 24853, 23405, 23809 - 24307.45 average (Interesting note - for some reason, Critical Hits have a much tighter spread than normal hits. It would seem like a Critical Hit actually causes a bias to the damage roll, so that values closer to the maximum damage of the weapon are picked more often) 1365 STR, 695 bonus Normal - 25319, 26810, 24278, 24932, 27420, 24935, 26789, 26818, 23341, 24186, 22635, 26533, 27198, 22070, 26848, 22413, 23737, 25660, 24551, 25505 - 25098.95 average Crits - 30776, 29354, 30503, 31119, 29540, 30866, 31873, 28607, 29910, 29831, 30049, 29982, 28971, 29901, 29525, 29391, 28990, 30366, 30012, 29556 - 29956.1 average Doubling Strength bonus led to an increase of 29.6% for normal hits (higher most likely due to better armor penetration) and 23.2% for Critical Hits. Didn't do an extensive test for Pelting Strikes, but seemed to be about a ~20% increase by eye. The entire escapade required dumping 516 points into strength. Still will never put a point into STR or DEX unless I increase the attrWdam_fact value in balance.txt.

friends -> clique When I was young our clique did no lan parties, but swimming at ponds, had our own self build hut for campfires, ,,, Close(d) group of friends all from nearby countryside villages. The town kids had 3 hours a day more to spend because of way closer to school and no bus or train traffic. They lived close to cinemas, discotheques, ice halls, ... and internet access... They formed more loose groups. At our place we had to coordinate our spare time activities. The clique broke up when we went to different places after highschool.

Well I can say for sure that vitality and willpower do absolutely nothing on a character with 100% mitigation, which I would consider a very realistic scenario... Looking at the Video example: Weapon Damage is 604-853 thats 1457/2 average or ~728.5 The original 684 STR show a damage bonus of 347 which is about 0.507 dmg per point of STR STR is then being raised to 868 so it goes up by 184 points so STR damage Bonus is expected to rise by ~93.345 damage points CA dmg rises from 25355-33954 to 25433-34064 which is a change of 78-110 or an average of 188/2 = 94 hmm pretty close how much did it do now? Well I can't see the rest of the gear but if there were no added dmg rings outside your weapon: average base dmg goes up from 728,5+347=1031 to 1125 or in realtive terms 94/1031= ~9.1% multiplicative increase in damage. For spending only 139 attribute points. Doesn't look like nothing to me... And this is were I give up on you. Maneus and I have already told you that the tooltip dmg is WRONG! Your video shows again that you have done no testing at all with the actual damage done and only looked at the proven wrong tooltip to contradict our reality. Here again Maneus' findings: I hope the confusion is now finally cleared up. I don't know what else I could say to make it more clear.

@idbeholdME Just saw the edits thank you ! gogo

Lahn => LAN (local area network) They used to have some great parties!

Assuming we do have to use the runes read = BaseCombatArtLevel, which in the previous example would have been 125, we get a result (6723) that is further off from the tooltip in-game (6751). The original discrepancy is also maybe caused due to having a fractional CA level. The game is also finnicky when it comes to rounding those. It could easily be either 125.81 or 125.89. Simply in-the-field experience. At later levels with high level weapons, the damage increases from STR and DEX are basically meaningless, with the base value of attrWdam_fact being as low as it is. Try it yourself with the character editor. Give yourself 500 free points, pump strength and see how slowly the damage goes up when you have a character with level 150+ and have a 175+ level weapon. The lower level weapons actually do gain much higher attribute bonuses. As can be seen from the table, a level 1 weapon will get roughly 12 times more effective increase in damage from the relevant attribute than a level 200 one. Even then, due to the very low value of attrWdam_fact, the increases are still irrelevant. A single flat damage ring will give you the damage equal to a couple hundred strength points. There is no realistic scenario where putting that point into vitality, stamina or even willpower won't give incomparably more to your character. Here is a video from a level 200 character with a level 242 weapon (shown at the end of the video), where I dump over 100 points into strength. Strength goes up from 684 to 868 and the tooltip bonus goes up from 347 to 441 and the minimum damage of basic weapon attack goes up by a mere 78 points. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/w83l5zmsuz81w6wvqu0y4/Sacred-2-Ice-Blood-2024-06-25-22-03-17.mp4?rlkey=7sf2n3udm33559qtnolnbtt6o&st=qp4vgjb6&dl=0 Even tried removing the converter to check whether Strength only increases the physical damage or something but no, the damage increases at the same speed even without the converter. As for STR and DEX bonuses not being multipled by extra damage, performed a very easy check - Battle Stance with the Aggression mod, which currently gives my character +453.8% extra damage. The value of the STR bonus did not change before and after activating it. So no, they do not scale with % bonuses and are just added additively to the final result, not even the base weapon damage like rings, but just a flat + after all other calculations are done. Meaning irrelevant in the later stages of the game. This is at least how it works with the PFP. One of 2 things was done in Ice & Blood: 1) Either they disabled the attribute bonus scaling with % bonuses (most likely) 2) They somehow changed the formula for it. Either way, it used to be viable to put points into STR and DEX before Ice & Blood release and you could meaningfully increase damage with them. So much so in fact, that it was deemed worth nerfing (into oblivion) in the expansion.

marble brains -> Lahn The Lahn river runs through my birthtown Wetzlar. The marble from the area is world known because of its colours, The entrance hall of the empire state building is made from it for example. That happens when my posting got real life interupted by an emergency call

Careful there what you call "BaseSpellDamage" is actually what Maneus formulas would call "(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)", so your value is misleading even though you later use it correctly. You don't give any explanation as to how you get this. I guess you have bonus points. But you would have to use the full number of points pre reduction acording to this: so your calculation is off and as I don't know the number of bonus points you have I can't tell what the correct values would be. I do not understand how you can come to this conclusion. At higher Levels a character is expected to have access to higher attribute values. But also:Higher Level weapons have a higher base damage. So for attacks if you had no "diminishing returns" on the attribute effectiveness 1000 str would add the same relative amount on lvl 1 and a lvl 200 weapon yet its supposed to give about the same absolute amount. For the Spell Calculation the Character Level/ CA Level is used to "diminish" the relative value of Int. For easy example assuming the Spell Base Damage works like one of Maneus' examples: [BaseDamageperLVL=BaseDamage/2]: at a fixed Character Level of 200 and fixed ~800 Int you would always get around "10 Levels" of the CA added in Damage through Int so Ca Lvl 1 ->Dmg of Ca lvl 11 Ca Lvl 2 ->Dmg of Ca lvl 12 Int bonus remaining the exact same value until your CA LVL surpasses 67(I.e. charLVL/3). than the absolute Int effect slowly Increases to double at ca LVL 134 etc. So the relative effect in this scenario slowly went from a factor 11 to a factor 2 (from 1-67) and then reamains around the same (from 67-134) well now I do undestand your conclusion If you only look at the end portion of the scaling it reamins the same in relative bonus. And it actually increases in effectiveness if you allow combat arts over penalty levels or high CaLVL + low CharLVL scenarios. This however does not yet cover the question which one is "better" or any good at all. Because always adding like 20% of your Normal damage (relative) isn't necessarily better tha always adding an arbitrary absolute value. The absolute one could just be "diminishing" from relative 500% to relative 25%. And then there is also the fact while you can't scale SpellBaseDamage without raising the CA lvl and you don't want to limit your Character LVL it is still possible to raise the BaseWeaponDamage of a lowLVL weapon by socketing high LVL rings into it, bypassing all the diminishing effect while retaining some of the increase that comes with higher lvl weapons.In cases of very high attribute values this can significantly increase the dmage because of its absolute benefits. I have no access to a standard base game but the question of how "useful" attribute stacking is could be calculated in general by multiplying that slowly diminishing factor for weapon damage per Level with the base damage of wepons of the corresponding Lvl and then run some numbers on realistically achievable attribute values on certain character scenarios to compare the flat values of StrBonus with the weapon Base damage to calculate a relative value in endgame. This brings me back to the earlier example on the Int Spell Bonus. Its the same for weapon bonuses just that the section for (CALvL 1-67) is here for (weapon lvl 1-255). Just with the freak effect of underleveled weapons which you could call a bug. In all other terms its just the same, double Int gives double relative bonus, so does double strength. To determine whether the bonus of strength is "high enough" to matter in relative terms we need some exact values. So now that I've rambled on in written form for over 90 minutes I'll just post it and let others find out whether there is anything useful in here

Character editor. Also, the effectiveness of the attributes on weapons should be adjustable in balance.txt with attrWdam_fact, which is what the mods which increased the effect of attributes did IIRC.