SLD

I already linked that in the thread that lead to this one, so we are aware I prefered using the Piercing crossbow set go into flight mode and use the quick ranged attacks to slaughter stuff. That way being ranged helps defensively and I don't need any of the "dread"ed semi-buffs other than infernal power... Not sure if it runs out of steam at niobium levels... Knowing myself I probably never made it past 110 or so... My tests with the "divabombing" showed a) It takes very long until the combo regen is low enought to use it. and b) you need high level of the landing skill because otherewise the area will be so small that it's almost impossible to hit more than one enemy with it. That and the fact that Infernal Power crashes my current game setup made me stay away from diving into that build. At least this time I didn't start the off topic stuff

In your pictures you included the middle panel that says "Attributes" at the top. When you hover your mouse over the pictures/symbols up there like for instance the "heart" next to "Vitality" it shows you what the attribute currently does. In the case of vitality it shows an amount of maximum life added by vitality. One of the attributes should show a "weapon damage". In the case of empty fist I guess it's gonna be strength. For ranged weapons it's dexterity for staves its intelligence and in versions past the community patch it will be willpower for lightsabers. That weapon damage shown there is an average and its actual min and max damage values are added to the tooltip on the left panel without further multipliers. The damage type of that bonus damage is based on the damage type on the original weapon meaning in your test case it will be pure physical and I guess the combat art's conversion can't touch this either which is why no matter the amount of conversion an amount of physical damage always remains in that tooltip. Also know that this is all only about the tooltip! It does not accurately reflect the attribute's effect at all! Alternatively you could for your testing purposes set the value "attrWdam_fact" in "balance.txt" to "0". That should remove the effect the attributes have on damage entirely, which should make the tooltip accurately show the actual conversion values.

Of course you are right, that this mountain of work deserves our respect and gratitude. If my need to demolish every serious content on this forum has gone too far again, I apologize. I did not wish to devalue your post with mine. Though seeing that xeyp the wise reacted to it with "Haha" it can't have been that bad

That sounds very interesting. How large was your "attribute bonus damage" ? That one would probably not be converted in the inventory screen as it is also not being effected by damage increase mods there. So if for whatever reason 40% of your entire damage was fixed to look physical it would of course appear to max out at 60% conversion.

That was more about the thematical part, wether you approve of items like that being in ancaria etc.

Well that is not what your formula says... just calculate it for different calvls and you'll see. Those mod descriptions aren't calculated at all. They were handwritten. They are also not part of the base game as that usually doesn't list numbers there at all. Not sure what mod you're running but it's creator might be capable of telling you more about how he arrived at those numbers.

Just go on Sacredwiki, on the Sacred 2 character pages there are links to the cm patch class sets for example etc. You can look at the stuff that was added... You expect "rationale" from a pumpkin?

So I took a look at the Gladiator again and a woodelf as well. Both have a special double attack animation for some dagger type weapons. That makes more sense than "boxing" with them. And they hit twice as I expected. The Gladiator has a "boxing stance" for claws, knuckles, Gloves, which can be easily seen when turning "compatible" dual wield combos into "incompatible" ones. But holding lmb with a "compatible combo" doesn't lead to super fast hits. They aren't super slow either but he's just no claw king. The non dual wield boxing with aforementioned weapons results in 2 hits as he swings left and right. The Woodelf can't dual wield so the only thing I could test here were claws and knuckles and they were odd. They did only hit once per attack. But when I went unarmed I finally figured it out. The woodelf does only hits once when boxing. Her animation does swing left and right but only one hit appears. Well actually she doesn't just flail her arms around im pretty sure I've seen her throw in a half-hearted kick in between as well. So as a conclusion a woodelf in a fist fight looks like a helpless damsel in distress. but I don't want to test all the other character classes and the combat arts... Lazy>work Maybe someday someone else will do it for us. moo!

I've just done a couple posts that took some serious posting time again so I guess whatever you did was only a temporary fix... Edit: yep, this one liner took 4 seconds again, and it gets a lot worse when the post is longer... Edit2: Just had a post that took more than a minute to go through...

Don't worry. While you kiss her you may be thinking about giving the fur shader Vertex Lighting and how to rearrange the combat arts for your mod but also about how much pressure you can safely apply to her lips... And she'll be glad that she's in there somewhere

again, the math checks out except for the last line. That's obviously 51.2 not 51.2% but I get what you meant there. This would however not result in anywhere near the 50% + 1% per level but rather 51% + 0.2% per level. What I can't say anything about is wether any of those formulas are representative of what the game actually does. I can say that the formula from the wiki token page seems really odd because in this instance it would result in 98%+ at calvl 1 and barely change at all with higher levels.

Had to look that one up... found out it's "Crom" So if my answer were "YES!" you want to prove it's "NO!"? ... that can't be it... Do you mean you want to prove that reborn has these roleplaying elements that Ascaron didn't use? For now I'm not up to testing that mod, but I'd love to hear from you what they changed for the better. A quick look at their Site sadly doesn't reveal that.

yeah, more delays

Oh I should have read more lines than Thanks again, you are of course correct. That however would make the resulting numbers from his "entry5" just far more insane in value. I guess "hope" blinded me here

I did take a look at that and it felt... dated. I mean if you like the gameplay of divine divinity or neverwinter nights etc armalion may be to your liking. But if you are more on the diablo/d2 side you would probably rather play sacred. It's just a question of where on the spectrum between a- and -rpg you want to end up on. And I just like the way Sacred turned out to be. For the more rpg side I'd rather go straight to gothic than stay in the arpg limitations... I'm glad those marketing tricks worked, made you stay with the game and got you stuck in a Sacred community

makes sense. there I also learned: "The values x and y are used in this list, where x is the second value and y the third from each entry." So he used those wrong why the formula gave me such odd results... So "entry5 = {"et_physical_to_poison", 500, 2, 2, 5 }" in formula 1-[1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/10)] for a combat art level one would actually have x=2 and y=2... and result in 1-[1/1.4]=0.28571428571 =~28.57% conversion which is reasonable and at calvl 100 that would be 1-[1/21.2]=0.95283018867 =~95.28% conversion which seems a bit "high" So either the token can have smaller than whole numbers for y or the formula still seems far to imprecise to make a reasonable scaling over 200 calvls possible... that's why I added extra [brackets] for him. I originally thought it was a brain fart wanting to add something like a damage range (not seeing the - as minus sign in the sense of the formula but basically "1 to 1"). Thanks for answering my call for help

Apocalypses usually don't protect much. Are you sure that thematically you want a protective buff in that aspect? But if you're going with the non friendly fire apocalypse things like storms or snowstorms surrounding ou or even meteors automatically impacting and stunning nearby enemies could work thematically. Earthquakes could slow stuff around you and would kinda match your stoneskin by theme. Turning into a living active volcano would match more a flameskin kind of skill. A smoke cloud resulting from some kind of disaster could also be considered apocalyptic. And though more fitting the void element there might also be potential defensive benefits from being stuck in some kind of black hole ore a gravitational distortion like a "maelstrom" that follows you around. Oh and in Ancaria there's always T-Energy that can turn into an apocalyptic disaster. Maybe that can be "defensive" debuffing/mutating stuff around you. The ancarian nuclear apocalypse - everything is full of t-energy Obviously I have no clue about the modding potential, just found the concept of an apocalytic defense so absurd I had to do some brainstorming... Wait, whats a brainstorm? Zombie tornado? Yeah, that's the downside of having my kind of brain

I have no clue where this is going but both your formulas have a missing ")". I guess it was supposed to be at the end. The second formula creates negative values then (still assuming x and y remain positive). What do you want to accomplish here? what you wrote there were "true" if you added the missing bracket from above and if "(1+(x+y*calvl)/10)" was actually the correct formula for the conversion and was supposed to give 51.2 as a result for 51.2% conversion. The formula from your last post was 1-[1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/10)] which for x=500 and y=2 and calvl=1 would be 1-[1/51.2]=~98% certainly this result doesn't make much sense here either... But I still don't know where the formulas are coming from, that you're bouncing around here. I also have no clue where x and y are actually coming from. Hopefully someone who has read this thread will come along soon and can actually help you. Both @Lindor and @idbeholdME are still sneaking around here sometimes and I guess they know more about the game modding stuff than I do.

well, @alfchaval already dealt with that part better than I ever could. So you're claiming their german humour got out of hand and you would have rather wanted to have a more immersive and realistic role playing game. I can understand those wishes, but that doesn't mean the game doesn't have content that took work to put together. The content they chose was their choice and if you consider it a good or bad choice is certainly an opinion you're entitled to. You talk about Franz Stradal and his "old rpg-team" which sounds like you know a lot more about the history there than I do. If a portion of the original developers of the base game would have done better or not, is something we will probably never know. Only the developers could tell us, If the original rpg design plans were significantly different. If they did do so somewhere publicly available I don't remember seeing it. If you have any non-public information on this, share away. Otherwise I guess I'd be to cautious about calling the ascaron management malicious. "Sacred1 is filled up with silly stuff. With crosslinks to entertainers, scientists, comic figures, movies, tv-shows, fastfood restaurants... It's a nightmare!" Yes, they even continued the nightmare with sacred 2. I liked both a lot and their odd mix of humour made their games stand out. "I mean, you got the .de version I assume." How did you know? Did you notice that my english wasn't the yellow from the egg? Edit: there were some posts squeezed in while I was writing sry...

So it sounds more like an unrelated problem that appeared as coincidence. Maybe the reinstall will tell us more. I have no clue wether it was an evil joke to make players hunt down all that lore they put a lot of work into creating, or just an oversight or even a feature that had to be cut late and they just left the references in. No, sadly I don't. Sounds dangerous I would have to disagree here. The ascaron guys, from my perspective and the contents of your post, did not do anything bad or wrong to the community. They had absolutely no benefit in making players play more back in the day. And pushing players to take a look at all you created not just a part of it doesn't sound like an evil marketing tactic either. An imperfect game balance is also probably not a marketing tactic. It would rather be an accidental side effect of imperfect game designers... It could however also be a clever way of giving players of all different skill levels challenges to beat, by making some character classes harder than others. And don't start with dos-games. We had enough of those without any end or the game just ending when you finish it and nothing happens

FIrst I admit I didn't bother to look up where the original came from to understand it, but the math makes sense on its own. Assuming we're talking about a CA converting phys to poison I would guess x is a base value and y is the increase per level for that mod. Assuming those are positive values "(1+(x+y*calvl)/10)" would be ever growing with ca level. so "1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/10)" would be ever shrinking. We do however want the conversion to grow therefore we subtract that shrinking portion from 1. 1-[1/(1+(x+y*calvl)/10)] gives us for x and y =0 an exact 0 as result which means at a mod value of 0 nothing will be converted. with and infinite mod value on the other hand 1/inf would be ~0 and you would get 1-0=1=100/100=100% as the converted amount. Therefore I conclude the "percent" in the quoted sentence is a double up(the formula's result already is given in percent). therwise the formula makes a lot of sense mechanically allowing for values from no conversion all the way to "almost" full conversion. I hope that cleared it up for you.

I guess that change is also what made him "unfarmable" via the cave. Oh, no! Don't hurt Flix with things that I said! When I talk about balance issues everything always sounds completely broken and that might demotivate him... we need him to create more stuff I wasn't asked and have not played pfp, but I did play vanilla so I thought I share my thoughts here as well. "something a non-bust Ascaron could've also implemented" doesn't necessarily mean improvement either. They made the vanilla game after all and all kinds of weird game mechanics decisions. That said the CP was quite a Ascaron style patch I would say. Also the community added items and sets, though they sometimes don't fit something ascaron would make thematically they mostly do so in their stats. So just as with the original game, with CP 90%+ of all set and unique items are garbage you would at best wear when you did not have anything better(and having something better can end up being an amazingly low bar). But to return to the balance part of this some new sets make mechanics like "life leech %" which in Sacred 2 is "take those % of the enemy max life do that much as damage and heal yourself by that amount" more available and in greater amounts. Which is obviously a massive boss killer mod that again shifts the balance towards attacks as it doesn't work with spells. So basically the community items alone are a big balance shift but not directly because they are all busted but because some are useful(and when I say that it always means op ) and the rest are useless clutter. And to make it perfectly clear: That is exactly how ascaron made the original vanilla version and its items as well. It is in line with ascaron style "balancing" and I don't think cp creates more problems it just doubles down on existing ones. So to llne up one of the most impactful balance combos: step1) CP items give higher % life leech. step2) CP skill balance gives "attack" type combat arts more projectiles per use with ranged weapons like energy staves (these combat arts fire all those shots in a quick sequence at a single target). Original proj count 2 now 4. step3) EE maybe increases the 4 projectiles even further when chosing the double hit mods. step4) EE raises speed cap for those combat arts by a factor of 3 relative impact of step1 varies on build but step2 multiplied by step4 already gives a factor 6 on our dps. And remember it is based on the enemies base hp%. So grilling more than 100% of any enemies hp with CP and EE can take far less than a single second. Only with attacks of course... From that example the game may look absurdly broken. But you don't start with such a build and the journey there can still be a challenge, also with certain challenge modes the enemies in EE can be quite op as well. So I don't think the game get's trashed by utilizing all these mechanics to make a great character build. I'm just saying that the disparity between casters and fighters that always existed got a bit out of hand here. I would rather want casters to achieve the same with proper build choices than to nerf all the fighter stuff away again... The addendum actually started playing around with adding fighter specific mod's effects to spells. Yet only at a chance which in my opinion isn't really good enough yet, but sadly dimitrius is missing since january... I hope he's well and can some time return to us. I think this one will be the easiest for a seasoned modder to address. Sadly I'm not one of them The formula that reduces xp gain from monsters past lvl 100 is almost guaranteed to be linked to some easily editable value in balance.txt meaning once someone tells you which value to change you can make that curve more or less behave however you like it. You wouldn't need a "mod" for that, you'd basically create your own. so I hope I didn't make it worse here and that flix will still appear again to answer all your questions from his perspective. I'll just try to summon him through a mirror: Flixmoo! -> ||

You did WHAT? I'm out of words here so I'll use your own: "this is an absurd amount of work you've take upon yourselfves and you've left me in literal awe." Jokes aside you are preparing quite well for your journey of rediscovering Sacred 2. Independent on Flix's answer wether he wants to do something about those bugs, I would argue in favor of posting them to at least make others aware of them.

with "all my builds" you mean all characters that ate a full book collection? And with start from scratch you don't mean a new character? I just still want to make sure we have a connection between "eating all books" and "something happens", as even if the "something" seems odd and bugged it might still be a part of the actually intended "something" that was supposed to happen, for which noone could confirm so far that it was ever actually implemented.

I did watch the vid and at 0.25x speed with lots of stopping on top. Man is it hard to see anything there, but that's not your fault... Now that I knew more I went into making a new test run. I took a lvl216 daemon and went shopping for test weaponry. I found the dagger type you used in the vid at 0:45+ and confirmed its single swing double hit behaviour. I had an axe that to me looks identical to the 2x2 axe in your vid but I could not reproduce the behaviour. I guess there are two very similar looking ones and mine is just the wrong type. I also got brass knuckles this time and they work exactly like claws on the daemon including the dual wield compatibility. The "walk" and "grip" parts are certainly related to each other meaning her overall body "stance". They are basically 1. the open handed "boxing stance" she uses with empty weapon slots, boxing gloves, brass knuckles and improperly gripped claw and dagger type weapons etc. 2. the closed hands properly gripping a weapon "fighting stance". Stance 1: Always has One click -> two hits ... and the odd dagger(and probably your hatchet) are the only weapons here, where the animation doesn't look like boxing. All exceptions to a double hit I would just guess are missed hit checks. Which also tells us that both hits roll hit chance separately. Stance 2: Always has One click -> one hit. Watch the vid. Niow that I have I know about that dagger making a slicing animation for two hits. Which proves me half wrong. She's boxing but we can't see that Yes! That's why I'm not calling it Quadruple! It's one attack / animation causing a double hit and then another single attack / animation causing another double hit. Sadly "No!" would have been the right answer. Now it's gonna get confusing I'll get more into that stuff later... Can we please abandon that "cross" entirely it is completely irrelevant and unconnected to "double hits". With max attack speed and a single unbugged, properly gripped axe I got the "cross" too. It just means: enough damage numbers in quick enough succession that the "single column" display style is filled. The game just creastes displaced columns next to that. It is not tied to a specific game mechanic, it always happens when you create lots of numbers. As I have proven with the axe example it is also no useful indicator in the double hit question as it happens all the time, double hits or not. Attack speed also shouldn't increase the "likelihood of consecutive double strikes". Attack value might but attack speed shouldn't have anything to do with it. As far as I can tell the likelihood of normal(non dual wield) double hits is always 100%. I'll get to dual wield later... Ok here we get to dual wielding. As my first test results showed dual wield does hit with left and right wepon once. (I still ignore where the dmg actually comes from. that remains untested here) So like boxing it does One click -> two hits. Wether you use a normal grip combo or the special double claw combo(and brass knuckles(the 1x1 size weapons) work as well) doesn't matter here at all. As long as you only do a single click as I did in my first testing round. If you however hold down the attack vutton there is some odd stuff happening that I absolutely could not measure properly, but you are right that the improper grip combos lead to sick amounts of hits per time compared to the non bugged ones. Wether the attacks here execute faster than the animation or the animation sometimes creates more hits than it should I have no clue. So I can't quantify its variance. I guess however that it is the first thing. You actually attack significantly faster than the animation. So single click->no anomaly but holding down->lots of extra hits. So in the dual wield case we absolutely don't get each weapon "double hitting" making a quadruple but we do get something else that creates lots of hits in quick succession. So I would abandon the display issues as explained above and also the Double-Double term entirely as it is confusing. In all "single weapon scenarious" so far double hits are either "never happening" or "always happening". And in dual wield we have what appears to be the standard dual wield mechanic that is however internally sped up beyond the animation speed for "wrong grip" weapon couples. Well I disagree on the weapon categories. There has to be a "uses fist fighting animations" category. Brass knuckles, boxing gloves, unarmed combat, the claw weapons and probably the small darkelf "fist blades"(untested!) probably all fall into that same category. And I believe that is intentional. Though it may not make sense to swing left and right fist when you have only one "brass knuckle" or "claw" item equipped I guess the devs where too lazy to make another set of animations for that. You have to remember this classification also leads to different animations with combat arts etc. So the gladiator "attack" CA depends on that item category to decide what animation to use and even how many hits that combat art is gonna have. So in our case the weapons not being "gripped" properly is just an indicator that the daemon got set to boxing mode, becuase she's wearing a weapon that falls into that category. Now your experience with the double hitting dagger and axe landing somewhere in between hitting like boxing gripping like boxing but not swinging like boxing that one is definitely odd which probably means that the category "boxing" is not a single flag. And those weapons "in between" and also things like the "medusa staff" are certainly bugged. But the half tooltip damage is a specific mechanic that appears on all weapons that are fully categorized as boxing except for the two handed boxing gloves and I would say that smells a lot like a design decision. You get two hits with one brass knuckle which is kinda cheating as it should only be on one hand, so they wanted it to do half damage. And they wanted the two handed boxing gloves to give full damage because they are like a two handed weapon here so more damage is ok. The tooltip not= reality problem is of course a bug again. Now what happens with the attack speed when dual wielding fist type weapons that somehow retain their "fist qualities" despite dual wielding, that I would argue is a bug again. I remain with the argument that double hits for fist style animations should happen, as they match the animation. Also how would you want the brass knuckles' animation to be otherwise. Swinging both arms with only one hit would definitely make less sense. I don't disagree here. The daemon uses her "unarmed" boxing animation with the claw floating in her hand. She also uses her unarmed boxing animation with boxing gloves. The claw however shows the half damage tooltip because it's a one handed weapon and therefore wasn't supposed to do the same damage as the two handed boxing gloves. After all two one-handed claws could be equipped to kinda match the boxing gloves. (Yes I know there would still be damage calculation inconsistencies as dual wield wpuld be worse for added damage than the gloves... But you also have to remember that mechanical inconsistencies aren't that surprising... afaik the dual wield damage calculations changed over the lifetime of the game and as for fist style weapons: there once actually where bugged one handed boxing gloves, looked the same as our current two handed ones ) I hope I covered everything for now. I also hope we got at least closer on our mechanical understanding of the phenomena described and tested on the daemon. I do however believe that we might still be at odds about what we believe to be bugs and what we see in our crystal balls about what the developerss wanted or not I suggest further investigation into other character classes and also combat arts could give us a better understanding of the general mechanisms behind this and maybe also reveal more clues about what the devs might have wanted... For today I'm done testing but I will keep the character and weapons this time so I can continue this later... For now I first want to get through everything else that happened on the forums today as I suspect I'm gonna be quite busy there as well... Definitely looking forward to your response to this to find out how different our views still are