SLD

not aware of anything, but I believe it to be a feature. I noticed something odd with the daemon claws as well. What I noticed is: In the inventory screen the claws only do half damage. So they also only benefit half from infernal power, rings etc. I linked that to "fist weapon" kind of mechanics. You swing both left and right in return, basically you do 2 half hits. Combat Gloves however somehow seem to do full damage even though they hit both left and right. I guessed it's because they are "two handed" weapons, so they are supposed to do more damage. My findings made enough sense to believe it's an odd decision but an intentional game mechanic. On the other hand, the use cases were so niche that I wasn't interested in doing more detailed research. Now you bring up daggers and hatchets and it immediately becomes a lot weirder. At least I've never heard of "hatchet boxing" before Looks like there'd be a lot more misterious melee attack mechanics to look into. If you want to test all the different weapon types on all characters to test this stuff further, the weapon speed article on wolfe's lair might also give some info about weapon type related stuff. https://nightwolfe.proboards.com/thread/2343/attack-speed-info-guide-characters While testing the double hit phenomenon, as that already requires hitting stuff with all the different wepons, one could also measure the attack speed in numbers, as the linked article is lacking in quality there. Are all the "fast"s similarly "fast" or whatever. I hate it that the accurate information, that was obviously gathered to write that guide was then thrown out of the window in favor of "slow" and "fast". Oh and don't feel pushed to doing this now. The info is just there to help do it right in one attempt, if someone ever choses to try and figure this out after reading this. I'm certainly too lazy to do this myself... Back to grazing

I have to cast some doubt on my own statement here. Was just playing around with a test vampiress(knight form) and found out that while her bow multi hit was working as described here, her hard hit did say 0.6 sec regen time but took more than a minute, so in case of hard hit there might only be a "visual bug", while multi hit has an "actual bug"

Oops I f*ed up again. The testing here only contains information on the "standard" damage numbers. I just found out that on top of that another damage number pops up with the set bonus that might also take effect on top of it, which would also bring us closer to the claimed factor 2.34. How could I miss that? The numbers are dark and I'm almost blind so I never noticed them at all... well, until now. Still can't read them though so that's that... Just wanted to warn everyone about my mistake.

I had no clue what you were talking about as I never play campaign or visit the nuk-nuk. And research on the wiki only shows empty pages etc. But I know someone who always does all the quests and knows everything about them. That guy would be the perfect candidate to fill in that stuff. hah, you just thornbushed yourself in the foot old man! You mixed up the letters here, I think you meant all that "drinking and whining" That's because of all the booze, which is also the reason why you have 2 spinning heads

Thanks. I tried my best not to break anything while I was there, but I must admit, I do not feel comfortable on those wiki pages. I have no clue how people don't constantly get lost in that code. Removing that single line already felt like an enormous task. I really don't think I'll be doing much on that wiki. But at least my respect for those who have has grown significantly

just leaving the info here that "someone" now has corrected that. Still not a nice page but at least the most blatantly misleading part is gone. moohoo

yes, you're right about that. It might just make me feel obligated to use that permission. Knowing my flaws doesn't necessarily mean I can change them. But yes I came to the same conclusion as you that I might have enough restraint not to kill myself over that new permission. thats why I changed my original answer to: see? Well I already looked up the wiki page I want to change first Edit: As Gogo hasn't created the user yet I can't do that right now so, Just so I don't forget about it, it's this one https://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Hybrid_Damage_Based_Combat_Arts

more like owch —> meowch (when you see the catapult the way I do and then look at chattius' profile pic )

I feel awful because it was my part of an emotional conversation that now noone will ever hear... no it was professionally executed user error yes, I'll take a look at the wiki when I feel like "throwing up" again yes, I agree, he certainly kept me busy and brought up some interesting stuff to talk about. Without people like him this forum would have nothing but an off topic section So, what where the things tat got lost... (This covers about all of it with some less emotion and some more structure, yay ) 1. My reason for not wanting to do too much wiki stuff. I'm worried because the recent surge of interesting forum activity, that pulled me in to spend more time here as well, has already taken multiple hours each day to deal with. I love spending time with this community, but when there are days, where I do nothing else anymore, it seems a bit much. After all I do have very short days and take a lot of time for all this reading and writing stuff. 2. Debunking Sethi22's claim my "knowledge" makes me better for writing wiki stuff. Example a) Wiki page on the damage cap can be written by anyone. Information is all in this thread. But it requires some writing and structuring sckill to make the wiki page readable. Then one has to read this entire thread (not a good fit for me...) and making sure all the important stuff ends up on the wiki. At the end you link this forum thread as source on the wiki and if you want to, you throw a link to the wiki page into this thread so that those who know what they're talking about can read it and tell you what you got wrong But the main important part on the wiki page is basically a link to this thread. It's the bare minimum. A text that summarizes and explains the results of this thread would of course be a nice addition, but again none of that requires "secret" knowledge. It's all in this thread. Example b) I already wrote that in my summary/memory post. Again something that is freely accesible in a forum thread. No secret knowledge there either... Example c) In this thread we also uncovered how the "special damage" mods from sets work. I've tested the numbers on a woodelf so that information can already go to the woodelf's set page. But if I wanted to add that info to all 6 special damage sets I would actually have to test all 5 of the other ones, meaning one test character each finding a oiece of the set that I can swap out without affecting damage and then doing the tests hitting stuff with every one of them with and without the bonus, on every difficulty in the game. A lot of work, that could of course be done but I'm not to keen on doing that right now... So in this case I can't write the wiki entries because I don't have the knowledge. Example d) I noticed that the spell CAs in the wiki list damage types but no damage numbers. The dirty solution would be to make a new lvl 1 char for each class and read 2 runes of each ca and then input the damage values for lvl 1 and 2 into the wiki. Already quite some work. If you want to make it more precise you'd have to eat like 100 runes just incase the original values aren't whole numbers. Already a lot more work. And then there would be the "correct" way of figuring out exactly how the attributes affect the ca damage so that the starting attributes of the characters can be calculated and removed from the ca base damage values. Well, I'm not Maneus and he's currently busy doing that kind of stuff for Sacred 2. So again an example where I know the wiki could use some more information, but I don't have that "knowledge". So 2 ecamples of where my knowledge isn't required because it's already publicly available and 2 examples of my knowledge not helping because it's lacking. My knowledge doesn't make me any good at writing wiki stuff. So how do you fill a hole in the wiki? You start with a topic to discuss or a question and make a forum thread. People come and tell you there thoughts, misinformation pops up left and right, gogo mixes up left and right (click), people who might know better start correcting the early ideas and after some back and forth everyone ends up on the same page about this topic. If there are still questions open people might do further testing and sharing their results. When all is said and done a wiki page can be created with a link to the thread as source and a summary of its results. What we really need for the wiki is someone who is good at communication and highly motivated to read forum threads and write wiki pages. So basically we need a community manager Why can't we just modify some of these and make them smarter, so they can do all the work for us? They are already highly "mootivated"

I just lost 2 hours of stuff I wrote here explaining stuff on how the wiki doesn't require my "knowledge" and why I am afraid of doing too much etc. I feel awful right now and don't have the strength to rewrite all of that... Short list of original content -damage cap stuff can go on wiki, just dump in what this thread says and link thread as source. -from the crit thread https://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/72687-sacred-underworld-chance-to-land-a-critical-hit-a-handy-reference/ formula could be dumped into the crit and Spell resistance, stun resistance and the chance to banish undead pages -and gogo can give me the wiki access just don't expect me doing much I had 2hours worth of text explaining all of that and a lot more, but right now I'm just so frustrated and angry, I'm just dumping the most important thoughts here so I don't forget about them. Sry for the mess...

No, I have already enough problems with reading and writing as much as I am on the forums right now. I don't want to expand to working on the wiki as well. Use that on Sethi22, make him do the wiki stuff To quote my inspiration for this: There is a big difference between a "moose" and a bunch of "moos"

yes cota is affected by armor. Test char that wasn't skilled into magic at all got ~12.5k without the set bonus and ~13.5k with it. So on the enemies I used for testing the bow doesn't seem to do much, on other enemies it might however do a lot more. Arrgh, he's done it again yes and "spell" in this case is basically everything that doesn't calculate its damage based on the weapon. don't forget the survival bonus and technically the vampiresses "claw charge" though she doesn't have any skills that would ever get close enough to cap. The +% damage vs monster type (demons etc.) may or may not work. I have no clue. There is also the life loss modifier "Each hit drains own life energy". As far as I know it originally did reduce your life by that % when you hit something and added the lost life to the damage hit with which you subsequently could leech the lost life back, That resulted in op battle mages hitting many times with "ice shards" and a 99% life loss modifier. Their life was always full but they could hit an enemy with a single cast for like 20 times the battle mages life pool which in endgame would be at least a million damage Obviously this did not last long and the modifier was reworked. The wiki states, that it now only reduces your life but I'm not sure that is correct. If it still does do something on its own to increase damage that effect would also be expected to happen after the cap. I'm out of ideas now so I guess that would be all of the possible ways to scale damage beyond the cap.

there is currently no right place for this so I'm slapping this information on here: Spell resistance, stun resistance and the chance to banish undead mods all follow the same formula as crit. The "Shock opponent" mod is different (Example value 28->9%)

Yes, you're just an "amateur" compared to those speedrunners. They are "professional" cheaters

You misunderstood the "certainty". Maybe I worded it wrong so I'll try to clarify. My test showed that resistance if at all only barely affected the damage from cota. So this bow character's lvl 255 cota with no magic lore etc doing like 13k dmg or something did around that much damage to my niobium "test subjects". Resists didn't seem to matter here and therefore the bow lowering the resists wasn't "needed". It is possible, that on more resistant foes elsewhere the bow would have some benefit. It might however be possible that cota ignores resistances, than the bow would be useless. I didn't look for this specifically, but you can test this with any cota build, just check wether the damage on enemies is exactly the same as in the inventory screen. Like all spells cota has no damage variance.

Ah, ok. It's just a translation problem. As a german, no wonder I did not know that. Always happy when my ramblings lead to more knowledge

While I was testing around with the other stuff I also looked at the Woodelf you had built there, to finally see the mysterious EttolRahc Notwen Set in action. So in order: -"you have high level exploding arrow": yeah that does damage. No surprise here -"On top of that you have high level Multi Shot, granting additional damage and arrows.": Well the overall damage might be higher but it's not more damage and more arrows. It's more arrows each doing significantly less damage but all combined they do more. -"On top of that you have the EttolRahc Notwen Set, which finally lets the damage the enemy receives explode.": This one kinda seems to do exactly what it says, lowering the enemy effective physical resistance or at least lowering something related to resistance(can't say for sure if it's just physical). So on bronze enemies with no resistances it seems to do nothing and on niobium mobs with some resistances it seems to do quite a bit. The actual odd part here however is not that it would do so much but that the resistances would have such a great impact on those huge attack damage numbers. So I did some testing with call of the ancestors and it seems like they aren't measurably reduced by resistances at all even though they have far lower damage values. In return the ettolRahc notwen set doesn't seem to change anything for call of the ancestors either. So basically it seems like weapon based attacks are somehow more effected by resistances than spells. And also the EttolRahc notwen set does never do more than reduce resistances, therefore it will never create damage numbers greater than the ones shown in the inventory. It will only help to get closer to them. It is now sadly not that mysterious anymore and wether it is op depends on the impact the enemy armor resistances otherwise would have had on your build. Was kinda off topic, but it came up in this thread so I decided to finish it here as well

Yeah, instead of those useless Landmines they should have just given him the reverse mortar grenade. It's like mortar grenade just that the dwarf fires his cannon towards the ground and the dwarf becomes the "grenade". Kind of a rocket jump. That would have been cool. We know he's not afraid of flying after all he escaped from the underworld using a hel(l)icopter

I could have sworn that she once had one. I remember vampiresses with lots of Sun amulets farming the spirit forest back in the day. After all she was the go to mfer before underworld. Maybe they just socketed other character's amulets... I couldn't find the character I'm sure I had one of those somewhere... Why does mfer sound so rude?

I don't think so. Call of Death should certainly happen after the cap. So for the Demoness' non spell combat arts: All 3 on my list scale with weapon lore and +%dmg but not +%spelldamage They all scale with different attributes... I got poison demon's poison nova to ~51k dmg at calvl 312. Cap should be reachable with better gear... I got energy demon's charged bolts to ~53k dmg at calvl 311. Cap should be reachable with better gear... I got fire demon's wall of flames to ~40k dmg at calvl 357. lvl 255 infernal power raises this to supposedly 133.8k. So I'ts hitting for ~60k without infernal power and ~91k with. Why only 91k I have no clue, seems a bit low but it definitely proves it'S capped. for her spells I got Abysmal Choir at calvl 332 doing ~12k damage with each damage type... reaching cap with that seems far out of reach... using energy demon allows conversion of the physical portion to magical, but it doesn't happen on the CA symbol only in the inventory screen, so I guess that would happen after the cap.... I got Tentacles at calvl 331 doing ~12k with highest damage type... again the cap is far out of reach... I got Hell Sphere at calvl 329 doing ~20k with each damage type. With lvl 331 infernal power the fire damage goes down to 10k on the CA so an obvious overflow. The effective damage on enemies goes from ~60k without to ~127k with infernal power (asuming 97k fire 30k magic) so it's obviously capped again. I got Blazing DIsc at calvl 287 doing ~28k with highest dmg type (fire). With lvl 331 infernal power the fire damage goes to ~40k which I believe to be a wrap around again(meaning it's actually far more than 65535; I tested with lower values and proved the wrap around there). The effective damage on enemies goes from ~78k without to ~134k with infernal power (assuming again ~97k fire damage and ~37k physical) so again obviously capped. As for the Basic attacks with infernal power, I could only reach around 104k fire damage. With other damage types present I can't say for sure wether it is capped... with 8752 maximum physical damage and 750 maximum poison damage (0 magic damage) against enemies in bronze that have basically no resists, I managed to hit them for more than 112k which would suggest there is no cap. But if someone wants to test this further there's a lot of room to increase the fire damage further with better gear. While I had so much base damage I also tested some flying demon "landings". Even though my inventory tooltip claims it could do up to 6.2 million damage I only managed to get to around 4.6 million. Secondary targets only take around 1.7 million. A crit of more than 11.1 million was also no problem I have no clue why the damage isn't as high as it should be. Something to look out for if someone ever creates a build with more damage. Maybe there is a limiting factor in there somewhere. So far it doesn't feel like there is a cap (you would always reach the same number then) more like the "landing" just does less damage than it should. That was enough testing for me now... Thanks @Lindor for the testing characters that made all of this possible.

Fine, I downloaded Lindor's test characters... Woodelf Thornbush visibly rolls over (pun intended) so I had a "3 dmg" thornbush. Effectively it did ~97k meaning it is capped. I also pushed it by another 18k damage to be sure. So Thorn Bush is capped. Call of the Ancients and Poison Tendrils only reached around 16k and 10k respectively on their highest damage types. They can cetainly reach at least twice of that with proper gear but that would still just get them halfway towards cap. So without cheating we'll never know if they are capped and it won't matter anyway. For recuperation I couldn't even get my woodelf's hp high enough to properly test that. I can say it can heal at least around 45k when it says 68k+ so we know it doesn't roll over. It should be possible, with proper gear, to find out wether it's capped. I don't think it matters much. I used the chance to test the woodelf's "special damage" set. As expected it applies after the cap. To my surprise however Lindor's source might be correct in that the amount seems to have nothing to do with the 14% on the set bonus. It increases ~97.9k damage supposedly to 206k damage. And spells with lower damage numbers confirm with their number of hits needed, that this ~double damage is accurate. So no healthbar screenshots but confirmation anyway. It is however less than a factor of 2.34 in this case closer to 2.1. This also excludes a 2.34 additive with survival bonus' effect. So I have no clue how exactly it is being calculated. The multiplier of ~2.1 remains the same when tested with a second combat art. A quick test in bronze shows the her 6% set bonus turns ~98k damage into 88k. Lower damage? Silver: 8% set bonus give 98k-->118k dmg Gold: 10% set bonus give 98k-->147k dmg Platin 12% set bonus give 98k-->176k dmg So from bronze to niobium the set actually gives a ~(0.9/1.2/1.5/1.8/2.1) multiplier surprisingly linear added 30% per diffictulty. So the 12% from Platinum set bonus is actually exactly double the 6% from bronze It's just not a bonus but absolute in nature. freaky... Attacks have not been tested at all here only spells. So nuch for the Woodelf then. Vampiress Her 3 "damage spells" are not affected by skills, +%damage or +%spell damage only SB seems to work. The strongest one of them does around 20 damage per ca lvl... no need to cheat this to a potential cap. Noone will ever use these skills at all. That's it for the vampiress... Dwarven Land Mines: First of all I found out that on the right side of combat arts only the cannon skills benefit from +all special moves... My level 298 Landmines reached ~27k damage on their highest element. With +Landmine levels and more damage scaling one might be able to barely reach cap. No clue if it is capped but without cheating it again won't matter at all in normal gameplay. Also to note Landmines are in damage scaling: I reached (without SB) Landmine: 51757 dmg Mortar Grenade: 856441 dmg Flamethrower: 388196 Cannon Blast: 721353 Without damage cap the cannon dwarf would destroy everything also found out, while darkelf traps scale with +%spelldamage dwarven cannon skills and Landmines don't. So much for the dwarf Gladiator's Dagger Stare: Does scale with Weapon Lore and strength, but sadly neither with +%dmg nor +%spell damage so the limited gear only got me to calvl 406 with ~30k damage(thats at maxed out 471 weapon lore and 1263 strength). Hitting cap in normal gameplay again seems very unlikely. So much for the gladiator... That leaves from my list above only basic attacks and the demoness to test which I don't wanna do right now because I want to post ths before I start repeatedly crashing my game with infernal power...

Can it be raised by gear bonuses? Otherwise I don't see much use for this. There aren't many combat arts that do anything of value without increasing their level. Oh wait, the infernal power demoness with crossbow would certainly benefit from a multi-hit combat art if that's possible. For melee versions Fist of the Gods or vehemence might be useful for their area damage. Depending on how the poison demon's damage conversion works it might benefit some testosterone using dark elves. Would Vampire transformation work on other characters? I guess transferring combos instead of combat arts won't work, right? Now I'm running out of ideas. At least it was fun to think about it. Thanks for sharing the method. Oh and for @Sethi22 we now actually know how to put Thorn Bush on a Seraphim

Where did you get that information? Did you test the remaining spells? So far the confirmed capped skills are: -All Battle Mage Spells (Lindor) -All Seraphim Spells (Lindor) -The Seraphim's BFG(which is not a spell) (SLD) -None of the dark elf traps (Lindor) -All dwarf cannon skills (SLD, partially Sethi22) we are still missing confirmation on: -All woodelf spells (namely "Call of the Ancestors", "Poisoned Tendrils" and "Thorn Bush" one could also check "Recuperaion" for its healing effect) -All vampiress skills (namely "Blood BIte", "Blood Kiss" and "Claw Jump". I don't think we need to test Vampire Transformation's self burn in the sun ) -the dwarven "Landmines" -All demoness spells (namely "Blazing Disc", "Hell Sphere", "Tentacles" and "Abysmal Choir") -All demoness non spells (namely "Charged Bolts", "Poison Ring" and "Wall of Flames") -Gladiator's dagger stare? (The damage description there is very odd but it's a non weapon based ca so should be on this list) -and of course the left click basic attack also still needs confirmation (-technically also Fadalmar's and Orla-Aisling's triggered set bonus skills and the Icon set's footprints but those don't seem to be scalable in any way that would bring them anywhere near the cap.) So with 3.5 character's done and 3.5 character's not done the gladiator and basic attack tipp the balance towards there's more we don't know than we do know. Did I miss something?

I can't say anything towards the design decisions. That's something you will have to decide. But as you mentioned the potential effects on the "release", I guess it would help to think about what the planned purpose of that "release" is. We already know that it won't be "finished". It won't resemble anything even remotely like what the final version is planned to look like (assuming you do intend to continue working towards your ambitious goals). So as far as I can tell all this release might get you is some more engagement from the community, feedback and inspiration from that and probably more importantly feedback on wether the things you already implemented actually work the way you think they do. Making sure there are no fundamental flaws/mistakes in your modding approach. So from that perspective it doesn't matter wether you implement the potential dragon and fireskin changes etc, before the release or at a later time. If you keep going for a couple more years it's basicallyguaranteed, that changes like that will come up again. So you don't necessarily have to make that decision before the release at all. The only thing you'll lose is feedback towards that specific feature. Just my rambling thoughts again... you decide wether anything of value was in there

And I thought everyone knew that. The more I read stuff like this the more I wonder what else I know that might not be common knowledge.