Item modifier DeathBlow - What it does

[Frisky 0]

I just started using deathblow yesterday on my SW on the 360 and noticed that...

 

Equipping one item with a 47.1% chance for deathblow yields

Chance for deathblow 47.1%

 

Equipping two items totalling 52.2% (30.2+22.0) yields

Chance for deathblow 41.7%

 

Equpping four items totalling 121.4% (47.1+30.2+22.1+22.0) yields

Chance for deathblow 65.4%

 

The 'yields' I mention are from right bumper stats page(s) when in overview.

 

If this mechanic is the same on pc, I am sure most of them know of it already but maybe some console users do not. Before I realized this I just figured it was capped off at some point.

I also noticed that 'opponents chance to evade -%' works similarly so there are probably numerous other modifiers that function like this.

 

If this is already posted somewhere on the WiKi then I apologize for the waste of topic =|

[gogoblender 3,066]

Great topic, and definitely good info. Dblow, and a lot of the item mods have diminishing returns, but noone has actually graphed them or had time yet to actually note the numbers. Would be great info.

 

And definitely has place on wiki

 

Pm sent to you Frisky ^^

 

 

gogo

[gogoblender 3,066]

I just put some info into a Dblow page here on the wiki. Frisky I put in your data directly into that page so that we can start tracking the diminishing returns. If anyone has more data points on this, please add it to the wiki or here on this thread and we can add it in after.

 

Maybe we can graph this later if we get enough data?

 

As well, I've dug up all the uniques that have dblow on them and documented them for that page.

 

 

gogo

[gogoblender 3,066]

Hey guys!

 

Soooooo...if anyone's bored here, would you be able to add to the data being collected for Death Blow Diminishing returns? You can post your data here in this thread, or add it directly to the wiki itself here:

 

 

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacre..._deathblow_X%25

 

 

gogo

[LordRaviel 0]

I have some time and my Seraphim has quite a few Deathblow items around so I will see what I can find.

 

 

Here are the items with Deathblow Items I have

 

Sword of Blood Dryads - 51.7% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Memtar's Protector - 50.6% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Ker's Scepter - 33.3% (Silver Slot Ring)

 

Gauntlets - 35.0% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Wings - 31.1% (Silver Slot Ring)

 

Ring - 31.0%

 

Ring - 24.9%

 

Tests

 

Combination 1 (2 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 = 102.3%

Actual Value = 67.7%

 

Combination 2 (3 Items)

35.0 + 33.3 + 31.1 = 99.4%

Actual = 59.4%

 

Combination 3 (3 Items)

50.6 + 31.0 + 24.9 = 106.5%

Actual = 64.4%

 

These first 3 I tried to make similar totals with different numbers of items and looked at the actual value, and found that there is definitely a bigger penalty for using a larger quantity of smaller value items.

 

Combination 4 (1 Items)

51.7 = 51.7%

Actual = 51.7%

 

Combination 5 (2 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 = 102.3%

Actual Value = 67.7%

 

Combination 6 (3 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 = 137.3%

Actual Value = 72.5%

 

Combination 7 (4 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 = 168.4%

Actual Value = 75.5%

 

Combination 8 (5 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 + 31.0 = 199.4%

Actual Value = 77.9%

 

Combination 9 (6 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 + 31.0 +24.9 = 224.3%

Actual Value = 79.4%

 

These 6 I just equipped each of my items from largest to smallest and checked the result after each.

 

Combination 10 (2 Items)

51.7 + 31.0 = 82.7%

Actual = 60.3%

 

Combination 11 (2 Items)

50.6 + 31.0 = 81.6%

Actual = 59.6%

 

Looking at 1, 10 and 11 it is clear that given a fixed number of items the total size of the deathblow affects the strength of the diminishing returns.

 

What I can say is that the strength of the diminishing returns depends on at least 2 factors, one is the number of items with deathblow equipped, the other is the total value of the deathblow mods.

[Frisky 0]

Nice work =)

Interesting to see what it took to get to about 80%

[gogoblender 3,066]

I have some time and my Seraphim has quite a few Deathblow items around so I will see what I can find.

 

 

Here are the items with Deathblow Items I have

 

Sword of Blood Dryads - 51.7% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Memtar's Protector - 50.6% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Ker's Scepter - 33.3% (Silver Slot Ring)

 

Gauntlets - 35.0% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Wings - 31.1% (Silver Slot Ring)

 

Ring - 31.0%

 

Ring - 24.9%

 

Tests

 

Combination 1 (2 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 = 102.3%

Actual Value = 67.7%

 

Combination 2 (3 Items)

35.0 + 33.3 + 31.1 = 99.4%

Actual = 59.4%

 

Combination 3 (3 Items)

50.6 + 31.0 + 24.9 = 106.5%

Actual = 64.4%

 

These first 3 I tried to make similar totals with different numbers of items and looked at the actual value, and found that there is definitely a bigger penalty for using a larger quantity of smaller value items.

 

Combination 4 (1 Items)

51.7 = 51.7%

Actual = 51.7%

 

Combination 5 (2 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 = 102.3%

Actual Value = 67.7%

 

Combination 6 (3 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 = 137.3%

Actual Value = 72.5%

 

Combination 7 (4 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 = 168.4%

Actual Value = 75.5%

 

Combination 8 (5 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 + 31.0 = 199.4%

Actual Value = 77.9%

 

Combination 9 (6 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 + 31.0 +24.9 = 224.3%

Actual Value = 79.4%

 

These 6 I just equipped each of my items from largest to smallest and checked the result after each.

 

Combination 10 (2 Items)

51.7 + 31.0 = 82.7%

Actual = 60.3%

 

Combination 11 (2 Items)

50.6 + 31.0 = 81.6%

Actual = 59.6%

 

Looking at 1, 10 and 11 it is clear that given a fixed number of items the total size of the deathblow affects the strength of the diminishing returns.

 

What I can say is that the strength of the diminishing returns depends on at least 2 factors, one is the number of items with deathblow equipped, the other is the total value of the deathblow mods.

 

 

Great info! I'll add your research to the wiki asap but you can add it yourself to get your name on the contributor list of the wiki with it's history. Sent you a pm ^^. I''m curious about your mentionning of the blood dryads swords having deatblow though as I thought I had added all the blow uniques to the wiki ^^:

 

Here's the link to the wiki page on the sword:

 

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacre...he_Blood_Dryads

 

Do you have one that has dblow on it? If you do, would you be able to post a pic? And if the pix are different, wow...this is a big find Are you on console or pc?

 

 

gogo

[Frisky 0]

I have some time and my Seraphim has quite a few Deathblow items around so I will see what I can find.

 

 

Here are the items with Deathblow Items I have

 

Sword of Blood Dryads - 51.7% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Memtar's Protector - 50.6% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Ker's Scepter - 33.3% (Silver Slot Ring)

 

Gauntlets - 35.0% (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Wings - 31.1% (Silver Slot Ring)

 

Ring - 31.0%

 

Ring - 24.9%

 

Tests

 

Combination 1 (2 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 = 102.3%

Actual Value = 67.7%

 

Combination 2 (3 Items)

35.0 + 33.3 + 31.1 = 99.4%

Actual = 59.4%

 

Combination 3 (3 Items)

50.6 + 31.0 + 24.9 = 106.5%

Actual = 64.4%

 

These first 3 I tried to make similar totals with different numbers of items and looked at the actual value, and found that there is definitely a bigger penalty for using a larger quantity of smaller value items.

 

Combination 4 (1 Items)

51.7 = 51.7%

Actual = 51.7%

 

Combination 5 (2 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 = 102.3%

Actual Value = 67.7%

 

Combination 6 (3 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 = 137.3%

Actual Value = 72.5%

 

Combination 7 (4 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 = 168.4%

Actual Value = 75.5%

 

Combination 8 (5 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 + 31.0 = 199.4%

Actual Value = 77.9%

 

Combination 9 (6 Items)

51.7 + 50.6 + 35.0 + 31.1 + 31.0 +24.9 = 224.3%

Actual Value = 79.4%

 

These 6 I just equipped each of my items from largest to smallest and checked the result after each.

 

Combination 10 (2 Items)

51.7 + 31.0 = 82.7%

Actual = 60.3%

 

Combination 11 (2 Items)

50.6 + 31.0 = 81.6%

Actual = 59.6%

 

Looking at 1, 10 and 11 it is clear that given a fixed number of items the total size of the deathblow affects the strength of the diminishing returns.

 

What I can say is that the strength of the diminishing returns depends on at least 2 factors, one is the number of items with deathblow equipped, the other is the total value of the deathblow mods.

 

 

Great info! I'll add your research to the wiki asap but you can add it yourself to get your name on the contributor list of the wiki with it's history. Sent you a pm ^^. I''m curious about your mentionning of the blood dryads swords having deatblow though as I thought I had added all the blow uniques to the wiki ^^:

 

Here's the link to the wiki page on the sword:

 

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacre...he_Blood_Dryads

 

Do you have one that has dblow on it? If you do, would you be able to post a pic? And if the pix are different, wow...this is a big find Are you on console or pc?

 

 

gogo

 

None of those weapons has DB on it pre-socketed. I think he means that he put a ring in the gold slot of a Blood Dryads Sword when he writes - (Gold Slot Ring)

[LordRaviel 0]

None of those weapons has DB on it pre-socketed. I think he means that he put a ring in the gold slot of a Blood Dryads Sword when he writes - (Gold Slot Ring)

 

Indeed, I find quite a few deathblow rings with ~400 Bargaining Mastery at level 111, so I added two of the three ~47% deathblow only ones I had to a couple of weapons to see how much I could get. I had a third one but I traded my lower level Sword of the Blood Dryads with someone and kept it forged in the Gold Socket. Shame I don't find more Experience, Combat Arts or Skills + with double bonuses like that.

 

 

Speaking of double bonuses, I can find 30-35% deathblow rings/amulets but occasionally I find ones where the only bonus is about 50% Deathblow. I guess the 50% comes from a double deathblow bonus, I.e. there are two 30-35% bonuses on one item and the 50% is the actual amount given once the penalty for multiple bonuses is taken into account.

Edited July 6, 2009 by LordRaviel

[Nadakuu 0]

just a thought,

I dont think effects like death blow can go over 100%

hence its percentage would work like probability, though there is still a dimishing return rate that I have to factor in somewhere.

 

I think the formula would be closer to :

50% chance 1 item

2nd item of 50% chance....

50% chance of 50% that 1st occurance did not happen hence 25%

3rd item of 50% chance..

50% chance of 25% chance that first 2 occurances did not happen..hence 12.75%

 

though there does seem to be an added % diminishing as the data ihad for the 3 items added together ended up with a different x factor, hence there is something else affecting deathblow perhaps an attribute?

 

either way my method gives a much closer value as the factor hovers around 1.1-1.6

may conduct own experiment later when I have death blow items .

[Zinsho 0]

The value is some sort of diminishing returns formula, however it's not a "vs previous probability" type of effect.

 

By looking at the double deathblow rings (50% with 2x 35% making it up...) that implies that ~65-70% Deathblow should provide ~50% in game.

 

By following this logic then items are already affected by diminishing returns when you see the value (they are modified as if they are the only item with Deathblow, hence if you only equip one item the value is accurate).

 

Assuming you work backwards from this... 2x35 = 50%, 20+30 = ~40% (from first set of data on this thread), so 70=50, 50=40... already giving possible projections. So if you took 2x 40% rings, they should provide the same amount of deathblow as 2x 20% + 2x30%... Therefore the underlying deathblow value on a 40% ring is 50%+, since the 20s and 30s are already modified downwards as well...

 

What we really need is the value from the data files that will give an approximate 'initial' value at lowest level, or the specific value from a set/unique (since those are fixed at given levels)... once we have the value from in the data files, it can be compared to the value in game... especially if you take it at say... 5 data points.

 

That would give a preliminary curve, which then can be used to include other values that you see from items... fleshing the curve out and giving it more definition. Given enough data points we can actually plot the equation used.

 

With that equation a spreadsheet/program could be created to calculate deathblow values needed to obtain a given %.... since you'll know that a ring of XX.X% is really YY.Y% underlying. You determine what underlying value you need, then figure out how many rings you'll need to reach that point.

[Dragon Brother 619]

The value is some sort of diminishing returns formula, however it's not a "vs previous probability" type of effect.

 

By looking at the double deathblow rings (50% with 2x 35% making it up...) that implies that ~65-70% Deathblow should provide ~50% in game.

 

By following this logic then items are already affected by diminishing returns when you see the value (they are modified as if they are the only item with Deathblow, hence if you only equip one item the value is accurate).

 

Assuming you work backwards from this... 2x35 = 50%, 20+30 = ~40% (from first set of data on this thread), so 70=50, 50=40... already giving possible projections. So if you took 2x 40% rings, they should provide the same amount of deathblow as 2x 20% + 2x30%... Therefore the underlying deathblow value on a 40% ring is 50%+, since the 20s and 30s are already modified downwards as well...

 

What we really need is the value from the data files that will give an approximate 'initial' value at lowest level, or the specific value from a set/unique (since those are fixed at given levels)... once we have the value from in the data files, it can be compared to the value in game... especially if you take it at say... 5 data points.

 

That would give a preliminary curve, which then can be used to include other values that you see from items... fleshing the curve out and giving it more definition. Given enough data points we can actually plot the equation used.

 

With that equation a spreadsheet/program could be created to calculate deathblow values needed to obtain a given %.... since you'll know that a ring of XX.X% is really YY.Y% underlying. You determine what underlying value you need, then figure out how many rings you'll need to reach that point.

And if thats not a mouthful I dont know what is. BUT...it makes alot of sense...it just seems like a lot of work...

[Zinsho 0]

It was meant as a mouthful.

 

However... it's the only way to account for the fact that:

 

A) 1 single deathblow item provides exactly what is listed.

B) If you socket a deathblow ring into an item with deathblow, the increase is less than is listed on the ring (I.e 30% Dblow gloves +20% ring = 40% gloves)

C) Multiple sources are added together to provide diminishing returns, and the same result stems regardless of order, which would appear to contradict A.

[Nadakuu 0]

what exactly does it mean x% for opponent level death blow.

and

what does death blow do exactly ?

[Viper007 0]

When the enemies hp hits a certain %, deathblow kicks in, and you 2x damage.

[Blokeymon 0]

When the enemies hp hits a certain %, deathblow kicks in, and you 2x damage.

Holy poopsicles, no wai?!?

 

So say, for instance, I have 2 weapons with 25% DB each, and two pieces of armour with 25% DB each (totalling 100%), then does this mean I'll deal 2x damage all of the time, or will it deal 2x damage for the first hit and then revert back to 1x damage for the remainder (the remainder being less than 100% health)?

 

The answer to this might just change the way I play my Seraphim....

[Arperum 3]

nope, you'll have diminish returns on the % then you'll have 60-80% deathblow then I think.

 

but deathblow gives you double damage as long as the enemie you're bashing on has lower hp then the percentage shown in your bonus overview (sigma sign on the pc).

so every hit hits for double the damage, for that reason is this mod damn good against bosses

Edited July 20, 2009 by Arperum

[leadboots5 0]

You can see some examples of %s if you look on the wiki. No one knows how item stacking works however AFAIK

[Blokeymon 0]

Now, I've just taken a look at the whole Deathblow % thing posted on the SacredWiki, so let me see if I get this right....

 

My DB level = 80%

 

Start attacking enemy at 100% HP

 

Between 100% HP and 81% HP, I do regular damage.

 

Between 80% HP and 0% HP, I do double damage.

 

If thats correct, then I'm going shopping ASAP!

[MTTaz 0]

OK here goes. Based on the postings I have dug through the relationship between final deathblow percentage is not linear or even fractional (probabibilty based). Instead it is a very non-linear system that is greatly dependent on two primary factors.

 

1. Number of items being used.

2. Percent value of each item compared to each other.

 

For those into heavier math it is something in the vein of

 

Sum [ B * (n + 1 - I) / sum (n) * ( 1 - A / 100 / I) ] for I equal to 1 to n

 

A = Sum [ xj ] for j equal to 0 to I

 

x = deathblow percentage on item

I = number of deathblow items

B = 'fudge' factor

I=1 is the item with the highest deathblow percentage

I=n is the item with the lowest deathblow percentage

* really need an equation editor for this darn stuff!

 

As I said, rather deep on the math on this. I had to include the 'fudge' factor in my equation as I didn't have enough data to get the growth pattern of it, but it seems to be multiplicative in terms of growth (eg. 2, 3, 6, 18....). As for the idea of using Excel or someother basic spreadsheet for calculating the equation, I hope you know how to program in VB, because the only trends Excel does really well are linear or basic curves (power, log, exponential) which this is definitely NOT!

 

Simply put you get the best bang for your buck using fewer items with larger bonuses or those items with similar bonuses.

 

Would be happy to keep plugging away at this if I find more data.

 

Regards,

MTTaz

[gogoblender 3,066]

Very nice info and explanation. I enjoyed this read this morning with my coffee. Thank you. When I get home tonight, I'll run tests and get a bunch of data for us. I've no hopes for making a calculator out of this, but instead possible a listing of data in a table to give peeps a rough idea of what they'll have to socket and how to get the kind of yield they're looking for in their builds.

 

btw, welcome to DarkMatters MTTaz

 

 

gogo

[Zinsho 0]

That actually fits quite loosely with what I'd said/predicted a few posts up. I hadn't gone and worked out the math for it but if you combine the two you get what I suspect would be a slightly greater amount of detail, especially since multiple socketings into 1 item will show the trend.

 

LD = RD * f

 

where

LD = Listed Deathblow

RD = real Deathbow

f = Diminishing Returns Factor

 

of course it could be, which could be all the more likely:

LD = RD^1/f

 

where f ~~ 2

Actually having tested that just now with the values that people provided that comes out pretty close on a lot of the equations (the ones that it doesn't tend to have very high values of DB on an individual item, I'm suspecting that those might have been dual-mod DB rings considering what the other rings tested with were, if that's so then you've actually got 2 underlying values, not just 1)

 

So the equation would become:

 

LD = sum(RD^.5) for every instance of RD

 

To work back out to this:

LD^2 = RD (per item), then sum the resulting values, which if you compare to LD^2 for the sigma value you will get a fairly accurate value.

 

To point out the ones that are fairly close to accurate with f = 2

The 2 by Frisky

Combinations: 2,3, 10, 11 by Raviel

 

if f=2.5 combos 6-9 by Raviel become quite accurate. I'm wondering if that is because at some breakpoint the factor jumps, or because of the dual rings fudging my values. The other possibility stemming from the fact that all the valid ones fell between 33 and 66% DB, the ones that worked with 2.5 are >66. It's possible that there's some calculation that increases diminishing returns at a certain point. Just not sure where... I suspect the first since the second honestly seems quite odd to me.

 

Of course I'm working with end results right here, if I worked piece by piece adding them and seeing how the curve progressed it might be something like:

 

LD = 0

For I = 1 to n, 1 being largest DB item, n being smallest

if LD < X

f = 2

if LD > X

f = 3

...

...

LD = LD + RD^(1/2)

 

For those less programming inclined, LD = LD + RD^(1/2) means new value of LD equals the previous value plus RD^(1/2)

for example:

LD = 2

LD = LD + 3

LD now equals 5

 

 

I know I haven't quite got it yet, since I don't know the breakpoints, but this seems to be *close* to what the equation is, at least as far as <66%, above that it seems to change.

 

oops... fixed one mistake in how I treated f since I was using it as 1/f instead of f.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Zinsho