Incandescent Skin: Gold mod

[glaglablarg 0]

I haven't seen any concrete proof that any choice should be better then the other, so I figured I'd reboot the subject with some input of my own.

 

 

Earlier, I was about to pick this mod for my HE when it occured to me that choice was not, like most mods seems to be, between two entirely different things. I reasoned that if one can assume that the ratio between a CAs regeneration time and damage does not change as more runes are added to the CA, the two mods will improve the character in similar ways.

 

If we for example assume that a CA has the damage X and the regeneration time Y:

 

- Should we pick reduced regeneration time, we'll add more runes until the CA reaches regeneration time Y again, thus increasing X.

 

- Should we pick increased damage, we'll not add more runes, keeping Y at the same value and thus increasing X.

 

This means that, as long as one are in possesion of the runes, skills and gear to support it, the two mods provide the same benefit. What I wan't to know here is, which one increases the CAs damage the most? I'm trying to get to a simplified answer with the math below. Once again, I assume that the ratio between damage X and regeneration time Y remains roughly the same as we add more runes.

 

 

If we pick Arrant Pyromancer Expertise:

 

The regeneration time of our CA becomes 0.7Y instead of Y. If the ratio remains the same, we can assume that the CAs damage will rise to X/0.7 = 1.428X when we have added enough runes to return the regeneration time to Y. This means that we can say that Arrant Pyromancer Expertise adds 43% increased damage, to compare with Fiery Ardor.

 

If we pick Fiery Ardor:

Two things may happen. My rather limited knowledge of the game prevents me from know which one is correct. (If you know the one, please tell me)

 

1: The damage incrase is additive

It is first added to any other possible damage increases, then this total damage increase is multiplied with the CA base damage. If this is the case, the total benefit will diminish the more of these damage increases the player has. It would be enough to have 20% from other sources to put the total benefit from Fiery Ardor at 0.5/(1+0.2) = 0.417 = 42% and thus have it be worse than Arrant Pyromancer Expertise.

 

2: The damage increase is multiplicative

It remains a 50% boost for all situations. Proven to be false

 

 

Similar math for the scaling parts of both mods:

 

 

For Arrant Pyromancer Expertise,

There are several possibilites aswell (Once again, please enlighten me)

 

1: The base regeneration time bonus is increased by 1% for every rune.

This would lead to a 100% reduction at CA level 70. Not likely.

 

2: A 1% reduction in regeneration times are added for every rune added to the CA.

If we assume a level 50 CA, the bonus is 1-(0.99^50) = 0.395 = 40%. This number would make the total bonus from the mod 1-(0.7*0.6) = 0.58 = 58%. Rewritten as a damage increase, it would be 1/0.42 = 2.38 = 138% damage increase. With the same formula the bonus at CA level 100 would be 1/(0.7*(0.99^100)) = 3.906 = 290% damage increase! More likely, but still very high.

 

3: The base regeneration time bonus is increased by 1% for every rune, but there is a hidden formula for diminishing returns.

Or, well, hidden for me atleast.

 

For Fiery Ardor

Once again two possiblities:

 

1: The increase is additive

Thus the increase will be 100% at CA level 50, 200% at 100 and so on, although suffering from the same form of diminishing returns as the base portion. If we consider having 50% increased damage from other sources, the bonus becomes 2.5/(1+0.5) = 1.667 = 167% damage increase at CA level 100. Plausible.

 

2: The increase is multiplicative

The damage increase will grow abnormally. For example, at CA level 100, the damage increase would be 1.5*1,02^100 = 10.867 = 1087% increased damage! Proven to be false

 

 

 

Please post your thoughts on the matter.

Edited July 8, 2009 by glaglablarg

[nilihanth 0]

Oh please someone explain this! And please, explain it in Stupid so that I may understand it.

 

I hope it's something simple like:

Fiery Ardor - Additionally increases fire damage. (50% + 2% per CA level increase)

Total fire damage output + (50+(2 x CAlvl))% in other words, fire damage output being 100 would then be 152 with the CA @level 1. That's about as complex as I can get my brain to go.

[spotmarkedx 0]

First, I have none of the math to back me up on this, so take anything I write after this with a grain of salt.

 

But another factor involved in your formula

If we for example assume that a CA has the damage X and the regeneration time Y

is the fact that "adding runes" does not always have the same effect on regeneration time, depending on how it is done. Is a rune eaten? Is it slotted into a bronze slot? Is +aspect or +all combat art jewelry worn/slotted?

 

All these will greatly effect that answer, and unfortunately also depend on a variety of factors (level, CA w/o penalty, focus). I tentatively put forward that lowering regen times may be better for ease of use at least, if only due to the fact that if you add/improve +combat art jewelry, your random pyromancy CA will then be effected by two increases and a decrease (+all CAs from the buff, +to regen time to the CA level increasing, - to Pyromancy from Incandescant Skin) instead of two increases and no decreases (just more damage).

[glaglablarg 0]

I suppose it is time to mention that I presumed no change in level, gear or skills for this math, only the increase in CA level. The basic point is to find a way to translate the gains of the two mods into the same resource, in this case damage. If we imagine a character, that has a complete gear set with no empty sockets, and we grant that character the Arrant Pyromancer Expertise mod, would we not increase it's damage by "eating" runes if the goal is to reach a point where the regeneration time has returned to where it was before?

 

If we consider empty socketets/gear upgrades, I would imagine that it favors Arrant Pyromancer Expertise as we would be able to add twice as much damage to the CA before the regeneration time has reseted. Although I think that it is hard to apply this sort of comparison on that situation.

[Zinsho 0]

2 things worth noting:

 

1) Damage increases are additive, including damage from "Enraged player +X%"

2) Not all arrant CAs are Pure fire damage, therefore any non-fire damage will not benefit

[glaglablarg 0]

1) Damage increases are additive, including damage from "Enraged player +X%"

Exactly the kind of info I am looking for, thanks.

This also means that some of the possibilities that I listed are invalid. I'll correct that.

 

2) Not all arrant CAs are Pure fire damage, therefore any non-fire damage will not benefit

This is indeed a good argument and one of the reasons why I am leaning more and more towards declaring Arrant Pyromancer Expertise as the better choice, as it provides full benefits to all fire CAs.

Edited July 8, 2009 by glaglablarg

[chattius 2,520]

I had similiar problems when deciding how I should modify my magic coup in bronze: Sure hit or hard damage.

I solved it by comparing rings on level 5,35,65,95,125 ( thats the levels our shoppers are placed).

Sure hit is like 30% +.2% per level , while damage is 20% +2% per level. And you can find both on rings.

I found out that around level 95 when my magic coup is around level 50 the turning point was arrived.

If magic coup is below level 50 then you need less sockets for damage than for sure hit.

At level 50 the number is equal and above level 50 choosing hard damage would be better because you would need more sockets to get the damage than the sure hit.

 

If it is not pure melee sure hit is better, because damage rings would work on both: spells and magic coup.

 

On Topic:

So the best way to solve the discussion would be: compare rings with fire damage and rings with -regeneration time. And look how much sockets you will need. But you will have the problem that fire focus will affect regeneration malus from the buff. So not as 'easy' to do the maths than for the magic coup modifier.

 

I do all my calculations in sockets: Level 150 shield lore: 7 sockets with block gear, Level 150 fire skin: 5 sockets with reflect, so playing a lancer elf with crystal skin would need 12 sockets to get the defense my shield/sword elf with fire skin has. Than polearms do more damage, so I can substract damage sockets from the calculation, but since swords are overkill already....

I value skills and modifiers with a virtual socket currency. So I sell defense for offense, starting from a build which I know that it works.

[glaglablarg 0]

So the best way to solve the discussion would be: compare rings with fire damage and rings with -regeneration time. And look how much sockets you will need. But you will have the problem that fire focus will affect regeneration malus from the buff. So not as 'easy' to do the maths than for the magic coup modifier.

While I agree that this can be a good idea for most comparisons, it doesn't quite get that simple. While Fiery Ardor indeed retains the value of +50% fire damage from any source, Arrant Pyromancer Expertise cannot really be measured that way. First of all, the way -%regeneration time stacks means that we cannot just add say, three -10% regeneration time rings, and consider them equal. We'd say that it is equal to, for example a -%15 and a -18%, or, a -5% and a -26%, but as you can see, the total value differs and we cannot quite put a definitive "socket value" on the mod, only a rough value. It should also probably be mentioned that due to the multiplicative stacking, Arrant Pyromancer Expertise is always worth another 30% off, which means that you do not really "replace it" with rings, in any case, while it is possible to do that with Fiery Ardor.

[Llama8 8]

2 things worth noting:

 

1) Damage increases are additive, including damage from "Enraged player +X%"

2) Not all arrant CAs are Pure fire damage, therefore any non-fire damage will not benefit

3) The % fire damage increases at higher CA levels.

[andy 0]

I'm also torn between which one to choose for the gold mod of incandescent skin.

I read through the thread and I am still undecided. I did notice that the two popular builds from these forums both suggest that the gold mod be the -regen one.

 

I'm reading a lot of posts on HE and everyone seems to say regen doesn't become a problem once you get to a higher level (100+).

 

Any input from a high level HE? one that chose the -regen mod vs one that chose fiery arbor mod?

 

Thanks.

[glaglablarg 0]

3) The % fire damage increases at higher CA levels.

I covered this in the first post...

 

I'm also torn between which one to choose for the gold mod of incandescent skin.

I read through the thread and I am still undecided. I did notice that the two popular builds from these forums both suggest that the gold mod be the -regen one.

 

I'm reading a lot of posts on HE and everyone seems to say regen doesn't become a problem once you get to a higher level (100+).

 

Any input from a high level HE? one that chose the -regen mod vs one that chose fiery arbor mod?

 

Thanks.

By the information provided in this thread I would go as far as to say that Arrant Pyromancer Expertise is better, mostly because Fiery Ardor scales badly with other %damage multipliers. I picked the mod for my own HE and by what I can see so far, there's no regretting it (Thou I should say that I have NOT tried the other option).

 

The "Regen is not a problem" -concern is a bit moot, since we can just consume or socket more runes.

[ka243 3]

Have you done any more research on this or gotten any interesting results from your own character? I opened a topic to discuss several fire mods and would like to get your opinion as well: http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=12401

Edited September 7, 2009 by ka243