Envenom confuses me

[deathmaster35 0]

I was trying to figure out if I should take the LL or Envenom for Frenzied Rampage, so I made a new character just to take envenom to see how much damage it added and what counted in to it.

 

I cant figure it out, the numbers I am seeing just dont make sense to me.

 

I looked at the tool tip with 5 different weapons and removed some pieces of gear that effected damage to see what changed as well as put on gloves with +2 frenzied rampage to see what happens.

 

I got to learn something new with this test and that is that str effects damage on different weapons differently.

 

 

With an executioners axe (gold weapon) the damage breakdown showed as Phy 223-347 mag 29-44 and poison 12-12 (weapon was +2 tactics so 21)

Skull Splitter (gold weapon) phy 253-361 poison 10-10

Elven Steel Great Axe (yellow weapon) phy 254-362 magic 51-59 poison 10

Blade Of Mutiny (gold weapon) phy 142-179 poison 11-11

Steel Clever of Violent Reign(yellow weapons) phy 160-212 fire 11-13 poison 11

 

If I remove an item that is giving +11% damage the poison damage on the Clever drops to 10, removing the 11% damage and a +1 tactics lore amulet drops the executioner axe from 12 to 10 (either item changed nothing, had to remove both for the damage to change and it changed 2 points)

 

when I put on a pair of gloves with +2 FR everything got even screwier

 

Exe axe phy 239-372 mag 32-49 poison 21-21 (remove 11% damage drops to phy 229-355 mag 31-45 and poison still 21, remove one point on tactics drops to 20 poison

Skull Splitter phy 272-388 poison 21, remove 11% damage drops to 260-370 and 19 poison

Elven steel great axe phy 273-390 mag 52-64 poison 20, remove 11% damage drops to 261-372 52-61 and 19 poison

Blade of Mutiny phy 136-170 poison 23, removed 11% damage item drops to 129-161 and 21 poison

Steel Clever of Violent Reign phy 169-244 fire 11-14 poison 20, remove 11% damage drops to 163-215 11-13 and still 20 poison, remove 1 tactics lore drops to 19poison.

 

 

I just cant make sense of what is being used to determine the damage, the one handed sword had the highest poison damage and a two handed axe had the second highest even though its base damage was lower than another weapon I had.

From the str to damage standpoint (in case that will tell anyone something about the weapons) the Elven steel great axe and the executioners axe got the most damage at +108, the blade of mutiny got +55, the skull splitter got 97 and the clever got 60.

 

 

any insight on how this works would be appreciated

[deathmaster35 0]

Anyone with a high level shadow warrior done any testing to give me a clue on what the game uses to determine envenomed damage?

[colif 36]

Try taking all your Armour off and see what poison damage is. I have a feeling the damage from envenom doesn't show on the weapon, it just adds extra damage in combat. The life leech bonus isn't added that way, it doesn't show in the equip stats at all. I am not sure how its calculated.

 

 

Are the gloves the type that convert physical to fire % or just +2 fire? If +2 fire, the damage bonus will only increase your damage if the weapon in question has a built in fire bonus. The stats of the gloves you swapped them with may have played into the stats you got.

[chattius 2,520]

In the following thread it was discussed if envenom and similar modifiers for other combat arts raise the base damage of a weapon combat art the same as if you would wear a damage x-x ring. (or as in envenom: poison damage x-x)

 

Discussion about base damage of combat arts

 

It looks as if envenom gives x+y*CA_level poison base damage.

Edited March 29, 2010 by chattius

[idbeholdME 387]

Reviving this as I've been wondering about it for a while now.

The definitive answer to this is, that the damage is flat. So in case of FR, 2.8 + 1.4 Poison Damage per level, then multiplied by damage modifiers (Tactics, +damage% etc.). Tested by:

1) Picking the mod with Frenzied Rampage at level 8 - CA tooltip said 48 poison damage.

2) Equipping a flat damage ring. If the damage was % based, equipping a flat damage ring would also increase the poison damage. However, it stayed the same, even across different weapons, meaning it's a static damage bonus.

 

All the confusion seems/seemed to stem from the wiki descriptions. As all of these mods have the same definitions in the spells.txt, (et_weapondamage_poison/fire/ice) they must then logically all behave the same. Yet there is still this description disparity on the wiki. where there are percentages for Demonic Blow and Frenzied Rampage.

 

Current status of wiki descriptions for mods which add a bonus damage of a certain element:

Ruthless Mutilation - wiki says "3 + 1.5 per CA level fire damage (+damage modifiers)"

Mortifying Pillory - wiki says "6 + 2 per Combat Art level poison damage (+damage modifiers)"

Demonic Blow - wiki says "4% + 1% per CA level"

Frenzied Rampage - wiki says "2.8% + 1.4% per CA level"

Spectral Hand - wiki says "4 + 1 per CA level, modified by Astral Lord Lore"

 

the percentages should be removed for Demonic Blow and Frenzied Rampage and the info that damage modifiers work on it should be added.

So for Frenzied Rampage specifically, you have a choice of 2+1 Life Leech Damage per level which only gets increased by Tactics Lore but is unresistable and heals you vs 2.8+1.4 poison damage per level which gets increased by Tactics Lore, % damage bonuses, % bonus poison damage and all other mods that work on normal damage but is if course resisted by enemy armor. The poison will also give your Frenzied Rampage an innate chance to cause poisoning (could be useful for a build with Damage Lore in it). So the poison mod will win out on raw damage and can be pumped much higher than the life leech but will be vastly worse against anything that has a high poison armor. The life leech will always be consistent, no matter the enemy. One of the hardest mod decisions in the game to be honest.

The only exception here is Spectral Hand, which as a Hybrid CA, does not benefit from Tactics at all so the ice damage mod is only increased by Astral Lord Lore.

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by idbeholdME

[Flix 5,116]

1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

the percentages should be removed for Demonic Blow and Frenzied Rampage and the info that damage modifiers work on it should be added.

As shocking as it may be, the Wiki is written by fallible folk like you or me (in the case of the per level info on the CA pages, it's me).  You can trust my PFP/EE/D2F tooltips over the wiki at this point.  But PLEASE feel free to sign up as a Wiki editor and tweak this stuff.  Even just one or two small adjustments like this a week have a cumulative effect on improving it.

[gogoblender 3,068]

1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

Reviving this as I've been wondering about it for a while now.

The definitive answer to this is, that the damage is flat. So in case of FR, 2.8 + 1.4 Poison Damage per level, then multiplied by damage modifiers (Tactics, +damage% etc.). Tested by:

1) Picking the mod with Frenzied Rampage at level 8 - CA tooltip said 48 poison damage.

2) Equipping a flat damage ring. If the damage was % based, equipping a flat damage ring would also increase the poison damage. However, it stayed the same, even across different weapons, meaning it's a static damage bonus.

 

All the confusion seems/seemed to stem from the wiki descriptions. As all of these mods have the same definitions in the spells.txt, (et_weapondamage_poison/fire/ice) they must then logically all behave the same. Yet there is still this description disparity on the wiki. where there are percentages for Demonic Blow and Frenzied Rampage.

 

Current status of wiki descriptions for mods which add a bonus damage of a certain element:

Ruthless Mutilation - wiki says "3 + 1.5 per CA level fire damage (+damage modifiers)"

Mortifying Pillory - wiki says "6 + 2 per Combat Art level poison damage (+damage modifiers)"

Demonic Blow - wiki says "4% + 1% per CA level"

Frenzied Rampage - wiki says "2.8% + 1.4% per CA level"

Spectral Hand - wiki says "4 + 1 per CA level, modified by Astral Lord Lore"

 

the percentages should be removed for Demonic Blow and Frenzied Rampage and the info that damage modifiers work on it should be added.

So for Frenzied Rampage specifically, you have a choice of 2+1 Life Leech Damage per level which only gets increased by Tactics Lore but is unresistable and heals you vs 2.8+1.4 poison damage per level which gets increased by Tactics Lore, % damage bonuses, % bonus poison damage and all other mods that work on normal damage but is if course resisted by enemy armor. The poison will also give your Frenzied Rampage an innate chance to cause poisoning (could be useful for a build with Damage Lore in it). So the poison mod will win out on raw damage and can be pumped much higher than the life leech but will be vastly worse against anything that has a high poison armor. The life leech will always be consistent, no matter the enemy. One of the hardest mod decisions in the game to be honest.

The only exception here is Spectral Hand, which as a Hybrid CA, does not benefit from Tactics at all so the ice damage mod is only increased by Astral Lord Lore.

 

Echoing what @Flix mentionned, the Wiki is open dbase and loves to be loved!

...if you'd like I can add you to the wiki editors list and you can add your edits to help out this awesome game.

gogo

[idbeholdME 387]

1 hour ago, gogoblender said:

Echoing what @Flix mentionned, the Wiki is open dbase and loves to be loved!

...if you'd like I can add you to the wiki editors list and you can add your edits to help out this awesome game.

gogo

Why not. I also noticed that some CAs on the wiki are missing some of the inner details, like attack rating bonus per level or damage bonus etc, while others have them. Could go over the weapon based CA's and add the info the the Stats Chart section, like it is on the Pelting Strikes page for example.

Edited February 20, 2022 by idbeholdME

[gogoblender 3,068]

11 minutes ago, idbeholdME said:

Why not. I also noticed that some CAs on the wiki are missing some of the inner details, like attack rating bonus per level or damage bonus etc, while others have them. Could go over the weapon based CA's and add the info the the Stats Chart section, like it is on the Pelting Strikes page for example.

And... done! I've PM'd you with your login and password

Thanks Mr.Crow and welcome to the Wiki Team!

gogo

[idbeholdME 387]

Went over the weapon CAs of the Shadow Warrior and added the relevant info. Adjusted the mod explanations (Envenom, Poisoning and Hurl) and listed the base attack rating bonus, weapon multiplier bonus, damage bonus and how they scale with levels. Also listed how the various damage mods increase these values.

Edited February 21, 2022 by idbeholdME

[gogoblender 3,068]

9 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Went over the weapon CAs of the Shadow Warrior and added the relevant info. Adjusted the mod explanations (Envenom, Poisoning and Hurl) and listed the base attack rating bonus, weapon multiplier bonus, damage bonus and how they scale with levels. Also listed how the various damage mods increase these values.

nice work on the additions, thanks !

 

[idbeholdME 387]

Also, additional note about mods that add flat damage to weapon based CAs.

If you are using a damage converter in the weapon, all the damage added from mods like Envenom is completely converted to the given type. Meaning it increases the effectiveness of damage conversions.

Say a Frenzied Rampage hit does 600 physical damage. You pick envenom, which adds another 100 poison damage. Now use a 40% damage conversion into Ice and the total amount of converted damage will be 340 (40% of 600 and the full 100 from the mod), resulting in ~57% of the damage being dealt as Ice instead of 40%.

Now take an energy weapon that deals 600 damage split into physical (200), magic (200) and fire (200). You use it with Frenzied rampage envenom mod that adds 100 poison damage, bringing the total to 700 split between 4 damage types and then put in a 40% Ice Crystal.

With Envenom, the result will be (roughly) 120 physical damage and 580 Ice damage, almost 83% conversion into the desired type.

Without the poison damage from Envenom, it would result in 120 Physical damage and 480 Ice damage, total conversion of 80%.

 

Converters convert the stated % of physical damage and all the other damage types completely.

And even when not using converters, the flat damage from the mods can trigger the secondary effects. This can be very relevant in any build that uses Damage Lore as it gives you a free source of another damage type, meaning another potential secondary effect.

Edited March 14, 2022 by idbeholdME