Building a better mousetrap

[essjayehm 58]

So we've had a good influx of Sacred players over the last little while, and I had been mulling this over for a while now.... so I'd better put this out there:

 

How can the guides we're writing be easier to understand for new players? I know from being here a while now that some of the guides STILL confuse me. Posting within the specific topic can be fustrating (sometimes) as well.

 

I will be focusing on the consoles, mostly. Soooooooo confusing when I started reading left clicks/right clicks, white/blue/yellow modifiers, bronze/silver/gold mods, etc, etc. Not that I think that a guide should be platform-specific, but I guess that there are now enough differences that there are definitely some different choices that are "better" depending on which platform (PC / Console).

 

So, what do you YOU want to see in a guide, as a new player? Or as a veteran!

[SolomonGrundy 1]

GREAT Topic.

 

the things new players need to know (And usually don't understand)

 

1. although ALL the aspects may look appealing, but you need to focus on 1

2. making a character with bargaining - even if he/she is not your MAIN character will improve the game experience tremendously

3. this is a game where for the first 75 levels, each skill point is precious. The best builds leave a few skills at 1-5 points for a long time

4. Ancient Magic or Combat Discipline - every character should have 1 of them

5. At low level, high armor, defense, or HP are great protections. At high level, reflections, blocking, damage mitigation and evasion are helpful -your defense needs to be layered

6. Some classes are MUCH harder to play than others. not just a little harder

7. PLay with a Combat Art before investing in it - some of them are better (or worse) than you think)

8. Read the mods carefully (check the wiki) before choosing, since you cannot undo your choices later - some of them

9. Don't read ANY runes without a plan - save them

10. You need Focus before Lore.

[Nashed 0]

As a relatively new player myself, now coming to terms with the jargan and such..

I would have liked to see guides with less abbs, such as LL% and SB, whilst maintaining the highly detailed reasoning for choices.

For a game this advanced and in-depth, I am quite suprised there is not a guide for at the very least - basics.

I got the feeling of just being thrown head-first into the game, resulting in many throw away characters, thankfully there is no shortage of online aid for sacred related questions.

 

Nashed.

[essjayehm 58]

GREAT Topic.

 

the things new players need to know (And usually don't understand)

 

1. although ALL the aspects may look appealing, but you need to focus on 1

2. making a character with bargaining - even if he/she is not your MAIN character will improve the game experience tremendously

3. this is a game where for the first 75 levels, each skill point is precious. The best builds leave a few skills at 1-5 points for a long time

4. Ancient Magic or Combat Discipline - every character should have 1 of them

5. At low level, high armor, defense, or HP are great protections. At high level, reflections, blocking, damage mitigation and evasion are helpful -your defense needs to be layered

6. Some classes are MUCH harder to play than others. not just a little harder

7. PLay with a Combat Art before investing in it - some of them are better (or worse) than you think)

8. Read the mods carefully (check the wiki) before choosing, since you cannot undo your choices later - some of them

9. Don't read ANY runes without a plan - save them

10. You need Focus before Lore.

 

Thank you for your reply, Solomon! You've got some good points here... but some of the generalizations I don't like.

#4 - debatable. Ancient Magic is "needed" for pure casters, no doubt (except Temple Guardian). Combat Disclipline I've always been on the fence with. IF there's room, then it's usually one of the "choice" skills.

#10 - Not for a caster, no. Lore is more important to have higher level than Focus. It's a careful design by Ascaron to have the Focus as "secondary" skills, but Lore is primary; it gives you a damage multiplier, and your Combat Art's will not be very good past level 5 or 10 without the Lore upping the damage.

Edited March 31, 2010 by essjayehm

[locolagarto 15]

As a relatively new player myself, now coming to terms with the jargan and such..

I would have liked to see guides with less abbs, such as LL% and SB, whilst maintaining the highly detailed reasoning for choices.

For a game this advanced and in-depth, I am quite suprised there is not a guide for at the very least - basics.

I got the feeling of just being thrown head-first into the game, resulting in many throw away characters, thankfully there is no shortage of online aid for sacred related questions.

 

Nashed.

 

 

Well that is understandable. I was lost for a long time. but the SacredWiki is really the best sacred resource in the world. it can get a little difficult to navigate, but using the search panel was the best thing I ever did. and as for those Abbr. yes they take a while to figure out. the admins here have actually done a nice job of building in some autocomplete for many, which helps.

 

GREAT Topic.

 

the things new players need to know (And usually don't understand)

 

1. although ALL the aspects may look appealing, but you need to focus on 1

2. making a character with bargaining - even if he/she is not your MAIN character will improve the game experience tremendously

3. this is a game where for the first 75 levels, each skill point is precious. The best builds leave a few skills at 1-5 points for a long time

4. Ancient Magic or Combat Discipline - every character should have 1 of them

5. At low level, high armor, defense, or HP are great protections. At high level, reflections, blocking, damage mitigation and evasion are helpful -your defense needs to be layered

6. Some classes are MUCH harder to play than others. not just a little harder

7. PLay with a Combat Art before investing in it - some of them are better (or worse) than you think)

8. Read the mods carefully (check the wiki) before choosing, since you cannot undo your choices later - some of them

9. Don't read ANY runes without a plan - save them

10. You need Focus before Lore.

 

Thank you for your reply, Solomon! You've got some good points here... but some of the generalizations I don't like.

#4 - debatable. Ancient Magic is "needed" for pure casters, no doubt (except Temple Guardian). Combat Disclipline I've always been on the fence with. IF there's room, then it's usually one of the "choice" skills.

#10 - Not for a caster, no. Lore is more important to have higher level than Focus. It's a careful design by Ascaron to have the Focus as "secondary" skills, but Lore is primary; it gives you a damage multiplier, and your Combat Art's will not be very good past level 5 or 10 without the Lore upping the damage.

 

lol we can start a Lore vs. Focus debate! both have there merit and in single aspect builds the ideal is to have both. but that really is a whole new thread on its own. .....hmm maybe I'll go start one.

[Shattered Rift 2]

As a relatively new player myself, now coming to terms with the jargan and such..

I would have liked to see guides with less abbs, such as LL% and SB, whilst maintaining the highly detailed reasoning for choices.

For a game this advanced and in-depth, I am quite suprised there is not a guide for at the very least - basics.

Yeah, guide writers would do well to simply spell everything out. It's less convenient for them, but it avoids confusion.

 

As for basics, I've been slowly skimming through the threads in this forum, and I think there were one or two in the stickies? I suppose it might be worth wondering if there's a way to create a comprehensive guide that has different "levels" of explanation (what newbies need to know, what beginners need to know, complex stuff, etc?)? The climb up the information ladder has been somewhat awkward, at least for me. (Then again, I pretty much started out reading character guides, which are generally aimed at the hardcore rather than casual players.)

 

 

Speaking of character guides, several of them just say "do this" without really considering the alternatives. It would be really nice if more of these explained why I'm not supposed to choose the other mod in a combat art or... I can't really think of another example off-hand.

 

There's also the suggestion of writing newbie-oriented guides. Like I said, I've stuck mostly to character builds, mostly because they're the only solid explanation I can get of how different characters are supposed to be used efficiently. Some generic character guides would be really nice, possibly grazing over the usual or most popular builds for each class.

[essjayehm 58]

 

Thank you everyone for the suggestions so far. I have a clear idea for a "style" for guides for people who are just starting the game, or have played for a little while and are still quite clueless about what is going on with this German Juggernaught.

 

Most of the guides here have been written "for" the long-time players who have good grasps on most of the mechanics; this I aim to avoid.

A lot of abbreviations are used, this cannot be avoided to some degree. Abbreviations will be used, but it should be very clear what they mean within the context of the sentence or paragraph.

Combat Art modifications - order and choices will be explained to the best of my abilities!

 

I feel a little write-up for playing the first few levels, attribute and skill point allocations "snapshots" at levels... 12, 25, 50, 75, etc.

 

Gah! I feel a little rushed with this (due to the influx of consolers in the past week or so); I am probably missing a couple of key points; so I am trying to elicit as much feedback as possible.

Thank you all for suggestions so far, please keep them coming!

[kriv 14]

I know this is class specific, but....."How do you get a BFG weapon?" Find the rune for it and cast the buff while not having a weapon equipped.

 

 

I was very confused by this when I tried to make my bfg seraphim as my first toon.

[Couze 0]

I know this is class specific, but....."How do you get a BFG weapon?" Find the rune for it and cast the buff while not having a weapon equipped.

 

 

I was very confused by this when I tried to make my bfg seraphim as my first toon.

you can have a weapon equipped to a slot as the game states you just need an open action slot You get 12 in total on consoles triangle ¤ X o then u have L&R + triangle ¤ X o

eat a BFG rune cast buff n it will appear on the open slot

[gogoblender 3,070]

I like the idea of having a guide like this. If you publish on this forum, Schot has installed some very nice bb code. For example, if you write a skill or Combat Art out then click on Insert Special Item then highlight the word then click on Insert Sacred 2 Wiki from the drop down... the word will transform into a written out word with the game's pic and link to the SacredWiki.

 

Dang...knew we forgot to write for everyoen about this A couple of peeps from here have caught on to this and have used this Sacred 2 forum feature in their guides:

 

http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11545

 

As well, I have complained about the use of Acronyms rampant with this game

 

Sacred 2 Combat Art Names - Disaster

 

 

..someone went off the deep end with their creativity regarding the Combat Art names... and because of this, I have felt now for a while that the dissemination of information with Sacred 2 was never quite as good as it was with the original game because of all the ER's, SF's, DA's etc appearing in guides, explanations and answers to players.

 

 

gogo

[essjayehm 58]

I like the idea of having a guide like this. If you publish on this forum, Schot has installed some very nice bb code. For example, if you write a skill or Combat Art out then click on Insert Special Item then highlight the word then click on Insert Sacred 2 Wiki from the drop down... the word will transform into a written out word with the game's pic and link to the SacredWiki.

 

Ooooh, yeah! I was going to PM you guys how to do that! Many thanks!

 

testtime

 

Ancient Bark

Edit1: Hrm... no icon... let's try a skill

Bargaining

Edit2: still no icon like in the Shadow Warrior guide you linked... 8(

 

Ahhhhhhhh.... Help with icons, please!

 

at least I know what the code looks like for getting this started in Notepad.

 

 

p.s. by gogoblender check this code out here by pressing edit on this post and you can see how it is working "-

 

Ancient Bark

 

SuperninjaicanseethefutureEdit: Thanks, Gogo!

Edited April 7, 2010 by essjayehm

[gogoblender 3,070]

oops lol, sorry there are two methods of getting links...both coming from the drop down...the one if you want images is the insert special item then Icon

 

Ancient Bark

 

 

Check your post above to see how it's done... so two choices...using wiki drop down link to just produce a link to wiki...and then the one I just did which will, as well, produce image plus link.

 

Have fun!

 

 

gogo

[TimRobbins 0]

I've met a couple of you, but I'm brand new to this game. I wanted to say that out of all the builds I read through, I thought This Seraphim Guide was one of the best for beginners (like me). Lots of detail, explanation of what skills to use, and how to level them. It also explains why to choose each skill. The combat arts modifications are explained with personal favorites, as well as other options for a different playstyle. I also like all the sacredwiki links. Last but not least, a leveling guide to best take advantage of the build. I know advanced players will never need all this info, as they will adapt the build according to personal playstyle, but I don't have one! Reading complete and absurdly detailed builds like this is the best way for me to learn the game (Along with this beginner's guide).

 

Also: Combat Art was the only abbreviation!

 

Edit: It auto-edited my above abbreviation to spell out "Combat Art" - nice feature!

Edited April 9, 2010 by TimRobbins

[essjayehm 58]

I've met a couple of you, but I'm brand new to this game. I wanted to say that out of all the builds I read through, I thought This Seraphim Guide was one of the best for beginners (like me). Lots of detail, explanation of what skills to use, and how to level them. It also explains why to choose each skill. The combat arts modifications are explained with personal favorites, as well as other options for a different playstyle. I also like all the sacredwiki links. Last but not least, a leveling guide to best take advantage of the build. I know advanced players will never need all this info, as they will adapt the build according to personal playstyle, but I don't have one! Reading complete and absurdly detailed builds like this is the best way for me to learn the game (Along with this beginner's guide).

 

Also: Combat Art was the only abbreviation!

 

Edit: It auto-edited my above abbreviation to spell out "Combat Art" - nice feature!

 

Dobri's Seraphim Guide was my first guide, as well. I had been playing 4 or 6 months and couldn't get past the Gar'Colossus in Gold difficulty at level 75. Then I found Dark Matters and the Wiki, and it was like in the cartoons with the light bulb over the head!

 

Re-rolled Dobri's BFG, and was in Platinum at level 56. What a difference a little know-how makes!

 

The beginners guide you linked is awesome! Good find.

 

Many thanks, Sir Tim!

[bigpapa 0]

I've only had the game a couple of weeks but I've logged about 100 hours with various characters. One of the things that really accelerated my learning curve was simulating HC mode. If I die, I delete the character and start over, with only enough runes to grab the important Combat Arts early on in my chest. This has really forced me to pay attention to my build and make sure I keep my armor and weapons updated every 5 or so levels.

 

The awesome builds that people have shared on the boards are great for starting out, but I found that I've started to enjoy the game alot more now that I'm at the point where I understand the mechanics enough that I don't have to follow one.

[gogoblender 3,070]

One of the things that really accelerated my learning curve was simulating HC mode. If I die, I delete the character and start over, with only enough runes to grab the important Combat Arts early on in my chest. This has really forced me to pay attention to my build and make sure I keep my armor and weapons updated every 5 or so levels.

 

Hey Bigpapa

 

You said that really well, hit the nail on the head. HC does increase our focus on details and dangers. When you have your life on the line, even a ringing phone or yowling of parents is all moot.

 

 

gogo

[BlackJAC 3]

As a relatively new player myself, now coming to terms with the jargan and such..

I would have liked to see guides with less abbs, such as LL% and SB, whilst maintaining the highly detailed reasoning for choices.

For a game this advanced and in-depth, I am quite suprised there is not a guide for at the very least - basics.

I got the feeling of just being thrown head-first into the game, resulting in many throw away characters, thankfully there is no shortage of online aid for sacred related questions.

 

Nashed.

 

 

There is, it's called the game manual that comes packaged inside the box.

 

Surely half the fun with Sacred 2 is learning through actual experience, which like any game of its kind, involves discarding a few characters along the way?

 

Too many console players unwilling to put the time and effort into learning a game that has a steeper learning curve than the likes of Gears of War etc.

[SolomonGrundy 1]

I think the hardest thing for me to come to grips with is the diminishing returns of point investment, AND the effect that +all skills has on skill points (at least for the first hundred levels).

 

There are three meaningfull skillpoint investments: 1, 5 (to unlock a skill), and 75 (mastery) - any other point investments only make sense in terms of unlocking mods and so have limited applicability

[LastLivinSoul 0]

I was very frustrated when I started... the main thing is research research and RESEARCH! That is if you hate starting over at 20+ hours of gameplay

[SolomonGrundy 1]

I was very frustrated when I started... the main thing is research research and RESEARCH! That is if you hate starting over at 20+ hours of gameplay

 

 

lol at 20. I have dumped 4 temple gurdians already. and 1 shadow warrior, and 1 delphic arcana high elf.

probably 20 in each.

[LastLivinSoul 0]

I was very frustrated when I started... the main thing is research research and RESEARCH! That is if you hate starting over at 20+ hours of gameplay

 

 

lol at 20. I have dumped 4 temple gurdians already. and 1 shadow warrior, and 1 delphic arcana high elf.

probably 20 in each.

 

I don't have the time or patience and I couldn't stand to do this -.-

[essjayehm 58]

I was very frustrated when I started... the main thing is research research and RESEARCH! That is if you hate starting over at 20+ hours of gameplay

 

 

lol at 20. I have dumped 4 temple gurdians already. and 1 shadow warrior, and 1 delphic arcana high elf.

probably 20 in each.

 

I don't have the time or patience and I couldn't stand to do this -.-

 

 

I don't think you guys want me guessing how many toons and how many levels I've had going, needless to say I stopped counting after finding Dark Matters! So many builds to try, tweak, etc (esp. because I am on PS3, playstyles can differ greatly because of the mouse on PC).

 

Hrm... after Dark Matters, I can remember 4 seraphim, 5 Temple Guardian, 2 HE, then I wiped my harddrive, and have played 5 dryads since. Average level about 50 for each. Knowing where to farm, etc greatly reduces real-life playtime since that counts the most, IMO. Levels can really fly with a good bargaining network!

 

Haha! I abberviated Dark Matters and the forum auto-corrected it to Dragon Mage! Edited.

Edited April 16, 2010 by essjayehm

[dreeft 9]

It makes me laugh when people are concerned about re-rolling. It's much more logical to start over when you realize something is wrong then to try and push a flawed character through the higher levels.