Modifying Combat Arts and understanding Flags - spells.txt

[SLD 335]

3 hours ago, iskoeby said:

If I take away that bonus physical damage

130 - 30 = 100

Then the 51 poison damage is almost 51% of that, but that may just be a coincidence.

interesting, but it would also be just ~33% of the whole ca damage. What I noticed however, is that it would also match almost perfectly your non ca base damage 82-30=52. Just as possible that this is a coincidence again, but there are too many coincidences here for my taste  

Can you make a copy of the character and then for a test spend those 66 attribute points on strength to prove I was right about the converted amount not changing in that case? We expect Phys dmg go up, CA phys dmg go up, but ca poison damage stay at the same value.

[iskoeby 5]

Hello,

Has anybody any suggestions how I can increase the enemy's max attack speed / attack speed limit ?

"et_attackspeed_limit" ---> but for creatures.

 

Thank you.

Edited August 22 by iskoeby

[iskoeby 5]

On 8/21/2024 at 3:18 PM, SLD said:

Can you make a copy of the character and then for a test spend those 66 attribute points on strength

Hello,

Sadly the save has been deleted, but I can do what you suggest once I get a char to that level again.

 

Thank you.

Edited August 22 by iskoeby

[SLD 335]

1 hour ago, iskoeby said:

Sadly the save has been deleted, but I can do what you suggest once I get a char to that level again.

Thanks for offering but please don't feel obliged to investigate this further. At least not for my sake. I always show up with more questions to help uncover mechanical details, but I just want you to know that I have no personal stake in this one meaning the details of the conversion tokens can stay as unknown as they were before for all I care. I'm currently not trying to build anything around them.
You already laid some nice groundwork to throw some doubt on the formulas from the wiki token page. Anyone can pick it up from here.

As "damage conversion" is certainly a part of damage calculations, I also would guess that if he's not running out of steam @Maneus might someday figure out the details to this... in a far more precise way than we ever could. In case you want a taste of his glorious work, it's over here:
https://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/18511-how-is-sacred-2-weapon-damage-calculated/
 

1 hour ago, iskoeby said:

Has anybody any suggestions how I can increase the enemy's max attack speed / attack speed limit ?

"et_attackspeed_limit" ---> but for creatures.

Sadly I can't help you here either. I'm such a noob at the inner workings of the game
But I'm pretty sure engame monsters in D2F can hit far too fast for the normal attack speed cap. So I guess @Flix would know how to do this.
Though I have tried summoning him in a far more "elaborate way" in the recent past and that did not work out yet either, so it might take a while...

[Maneus 145]

On 8/22/2024 at 9:32 PM, SLD said:

As "damage conversion" is certainly a part of damage calculations, I also would guess that if he's not running out of steam @Maneus might someday figure out the details to this... in a far more precise way than we ever could.

Yes, I will look into damage conversion very soon.

But, since I'm not following this thread, I don't know what exactly the discussion is about. What is the exact question? Could anyone summarize it for me?

Edited August 23 by Maneus

[Lindor 536]

I didn't plan to go online today but since there seems to be more and more interest accumulated here:

The speed cap can be adjustet in balance.txt.

There are multiple posts somewhere in this forum from both Flix and me which explain it in a little bit more detail.

[gogoblender 3,206]

3 hours ago, Lindor said:

I didn't plan to go online today

whaaaaaaaaaaaaa....heresy!!

gogo

[SLD 335]

15 hours ago, Maneus said:

But, since I'm not following this thread, I don't know what exactly the discussion is about. What is the exact question? Could anyone summarize it for me?

The current discussion is only one and a half pages long. Starting with a post on 08/19/2024 01:07PM. It was specifically about the "et_physical_to_poison" token and its effects. The wiki Token page lists a formula for that, that given the values from spells.txt doesn't make any sense to me at all. (These odd formulas were put into the wiki by a guy named "pugi" who hasn't been around for many years. His Source was as far as the search function told me not a discussion on this forum)

[Edit:
link to said wiki token page: https://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Tokens
]

If you don't want to read up on the details of this thread, you wouldn't have to as dealing with conversion and the related tokens with your scientific method building the knowledge from the ground up would also lead to all the information needed here and therefore @iskoeby can just be sent to your results for answers.

I hope my summary put everything here in a useful perspective.

9 hours ago, gogoblender said:

Go back behind your door, Butcher! Androids don't have "fresh meat".

Edited August 24 by SLD

[Maneus 145]

Hello, @iskoeby

Here are some calculations that will hopefully shine some light on what is going on with those numbers.

Dryad, level 55
Strength = 157 (144 + 13)
Base weapon (fist) damage is 47
Attribute bonus from strength is 19
Weapon damage in the inventory screen is 66

 

Ravaged Impact, level 1, with the Envenom modification

CombatArtMultiplier = 1202

Spoiler

entry1 = {"et_mult_weapondamage", 1200, 2, 0, 9 },

CombatArtMultiplier = InitialValue + FLOOR(ValuePerLevel * FinalCombatArtLevel)
CombatArtMultiplier = 1200 + FLOOR(2 * 1)
CombatArtMultiplier = 1202

PercentageBonus = 500

Spoiler

entry3 = {"et_damage_any_rel", 400, 100, 0, 5 },

PercentageBonus = InitialValue + FLOOR(ValuePerLevel * FinalCombatArtLevel)
PercentageBonus = 400 + FLOOR(100 * 1)
PercentageBonus = 500

ConversionMultiplier = 0.3377483443708609 (33.7% to poison)

Spoiler

entry5 = {"et_physical_to_poison", 500, 10, 2, 5 },

ValueOfBonus = InitialValue + FLOOR(ValuePerLevel * FinalCombatArtLevel)
ValueOfBonus = 500 + FLOOR(10 * 1)
ValueOfBonus = 510

ConversionMultiplier = ValueOfBonus / (ValueOfBonus + 1000)
ConversionMultiplier = 510 / (510 + 1000)
ConversionMultiplier = 510 / 1510
ConversionMultiplier = 0.3377483443708609

PhysicalWeaponDamage = 31

Spoiler

PhysicalWeaponDamage = FLOOR(PhysicalDamage * (1 - ConversionMultiplier))
PhysicalWeaponDamage = FLOOR(47 * (1 - 0.3377483443708609))
PhysicalWeaponDamage = FLOOR(47 * 0.6622516556291391)
PhysicalWeaponDamage = FLOOR(31.12582781456954)
PhysicalWeaponDamage = 31

PoisonWeaponDamage = 16

Spoiler

PoisonWeaponDamage = CEIL(PhysicalDamage * ConversionMultiplier) + SumNonPhysicalDamage
PoisonWeaponDamage = CEIL(47 * 0.3377483443708609) + 0
PoisonWeaponDamage = CEIL(15.87417218543046)
PoisonWeaponDamage = 16

PhysicalBaseDamage = 55

Spoiler

BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR((WeaponDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses / 1000)) * (CombatArtMultiplier / 1000)) * (CriticalMultiplier / 1000)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR((31 + 0) * (1 + 500 / 1000)) * (1202 / 1000))
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR(31 * (1 + 0.5)) * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR(31 * 1.5) * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR(46.5) * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(46 * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(55.292)
BaseDamage = 55

PoisonBaseDamage = 28

Spoiler

BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR((WeaponDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses / 1000)) * (CombatArtMultiplier / 1000)) * (CriticalMultiplier / 1000)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR((16 + 0) * (1 + 500 / 1000)) * (1202 / 1000))
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR(16 * (1 + 0.5)) * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR(16 * 1.5) * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(FLOOR(24) * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(24 * 1.202)
BaseDamage = FLOOR(28.848)
BaseDamage = 28

CombinedDamage = BaseDamage + AttributeBonus

In the inventory screen, the attribute bonus is calculated solely based on the on-weapon stats. Conversion, percentage bonuses, combat art multiplier - nothing is taken into account. So we can use the value from the tooltip directly.

PhysicalCombinedDamage = PhysicalBaseDamage + PhysicalAttributeBonus
PhysicalCombinedDamage = 55 + 19
PhysicalCombinedDamage = 74 (Reference value is 74)

PoisonCombinedDamage = PoisonBaseDamage + PoisonAttributeBonus
PoisonCombinedDamage = 28 + 0
PoisonCombinedDamage = 28 (Reference value is 28)

Total 102

This is not the same result that is shown in your screenshot. The third value of the entry et_physical_to_poison is different (2 instead of 10). But this shouldn't matter in this case because the numbers are too small. You appear to have a percentage bonus to physical damage. Could you tell us what it is? It's either that, or the parameters that determine the attribute bonus are different (I think).

Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, the more suspicious I become of your attribute bonus. Could you tell us what the values of the following prameters in balance.txt are:
- attrWdam_fact
- TopLevelCalc
- damBasepoints
- basepointsMultiplier

Edited August 25 by Maneus

[idbeholdME 434]

On 8/21/2024 at 4:18 PM, SLD said:

interesting, but it would also be just ~33% of the whole ca 

I think that might be correct. A lot of the game's math uses 1000 as base and adds any bonuses to that base. Combine 1000 physical and 500 poison portions and out of that total, you get exactly one third poison damage. The game uses this method in places where it doesn't want you to reach 100% values, e.g. diminishing returns, like for cooldown reductions. The only real exception to this is damage mitigation, which always stacks additively up to and over 100% (for the purposes of interacting with Ancient Magic Mastery).

I assume that if the conversion token value was 1000, it'd result in 50% conversion. 2000 would result in 66.6% conversion. 3000 in 75% conversion and so on.

Wiki used to be full of this. Someone looked at the token, saw 500 and wrote absolute 50%, when in reality, it's 33% relative. Fixed that for most Shadow Warrior and Seraphim CAs when I was playing them.

Edited August 27 by idbeholdME

[SLD 335]

9 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

I think that might be correct.

9 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

I assume that if the conversion token value was 1000, it'd result in 50% conversion. 2000 would result in 66.6% conversion. 3000 in 75% conversion and so on.

Maneus has already posted the formula above:

On 8/25/2024 at 7:01 PM, Maneus said:

ConversionMultiplier = ValueOfBonus / (ValueOfBonus + 1000)

So, the details are already there and as far as I can tell all of Iskoeby's questions here are already solved. 

[gogoblender 3,206]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:17 AM, SLD said:

 

Go back behind your door, Butcher! Androids don't have "fresh meat".

But dont they dream of electric sheep?

gogo

[SLD 335]

5 hours ago, gogoblender said:

But dont they dream of electric sheep?

gogo

Maybe they do, but electric sheep don't have fresh meat either. The important part is that the butcher remains locked behind the door on cathedral level 2 so that the 3 cows of tristram are safe.

Edited August 28 by SLD

[idbeholdME 434]

On 8/27/2024 at 11:49 PM, SLD said:

Maneus has already posted the formula above:

So, the details are already there and as far as I can tell all of Iskoeby's questions here are already solved. 

Oh, missed that one. That's what I get for responding on a phone. Especially quoting gets quite cumbersome on a phone on these forums.

Edited September 3 by idbeholdME

[Maneus 145]

On 8/25/2024 at 8:01 PM, Maneus said:

Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, the more suspicious I become of your attribute bonus. Could you tell us what the values of the following prameters in balance.txt are:
- attrWdam_fact
- TopLevelCalc
- damBasepoints
- basepointsMultiplier

By the looks of it, iskoeby is using the EE mod. In that mod, attrWdam_fact is set to 400 (instead of 250). That makes the attribute bonus 30 (instead of 19).

This makes the left-click damage become 77-77 and the CA damage become 113-113 (85-85 physical, 28-28 poison). This is also what I see in-game.

But that is one more physical damage than what is shown in the first screenshot. Seeing how the following screenshots show different stats, I assume that iskoeby had less points in strength at the time he took the first screenshot.

Edited September 5 by Maneus

[gogoblender 3,206]

8 hours ago, Maneus said:

By the looks of it, iskoeby is using the EE mod. In that mod, attrWdam_fact is set to 400 (instead of 250). That makes the attribute bonus 30 (instead of 19).

This makes the left-click damage become 77-77 and the CA damage become 113-113 (85-85 physical, 28-28 poison). This is also what I see in-game.

But that is one more physical damage than what is shown in the first screenshot. Seeing how the following screenshots show different stats, I assume that iskoeby had less points in strength at the time he took the first screenshot.

Dang, Maneus... I'm gonna have to put in a *spectacular sleuth" for posts... Bravo on the detective work to help out Sacred Fans!

gogo

[SLD 335]

5 hours ago, gogoblender said:

Dang, Maneus... I'm gonna have to put in a *spectacular sleuth" for posts... Bravo on the detective work to help out Sacred Fans!

For once I have to disagree.
Maneus does so much "work to help out Sacred Fans" but this is not among those things. He just showed that his "actual work" can be applied to this case and now that he downloaded pfp EE and who knows what, he just got the numbers he needed to put into his formulas to figure this out.
It does "help" absolutely noone on earth to know what game version Iskoeby has chosen to play...

Also, I have noticed that Iskoeby didn't actually "play" EE at all. In EE it is not possible to play a character to a point where you are past level 50 but only have 5 skill points...
Can I join the detectives club now?

Ok fine, I'll praise maneus' detective skills as well:
Maneus, you're a better detective than me. 
Because I actually had to fire up the game client to find out,
why it had to be EE and could not have been the Addendum.

[Maneus 145]

9 hours ago, SLD said:

Because I actually had to fire up the game client to find out,
why it had to be EE and could not have been the Addendum.

Now that you mention it, the Addendum appears to incorporate the EE mod. So why couldn't it be the Addendum? That's a genuine question. I have no experience with the mods, so I wouldn't be able to tell the difference 

[Flix 5,167]

9 hours ago, Maneus said:

Now that you mention it, the Addendum appears to incorporate the EE mod. So why couldn't it be the Addendum? That's a genuine question. I have no experience with the mods, so I wouldn't be able to tell the difference 

The fixes are shared between the two projects, while balance changes like attribute effects and all manner of creative decisions are independent and usually quite different unless by coincidence. 

[SLD 335]

5 hours ago, Flix said:

The fixes are shared between the two projects, while balance changes like attribute effects and all manner of creative decisions are independent and usually quite different unless by coincidence. 

The two number sets relevant are exactly identical and different from the base game. I highly doubt coincidence with an attrWdam_fact of 400 and the phys to poison conversion mod on the dryad's "hard hit" whatever its name may be... 
 

15 hours ago, Maneus said:

Now that you mention it, the Addendum appears to incorporate the EE mod. So why couldn't it be the Addendum? That's a genuine question. I have no experience with the mods, so I wouldn't be able to tell the difference 

The addendum renames the aspects, changing both the aspect name on the right side of the screenshot and the name of the corresponding focus

[Flix 5,167]

11 minutes ago, SLD said:

phys to poison conversion mod on the dryad's "hard hit" whatever its name may be.

Dates back to the earliest iterations of the Community Patch, which is the foundation of both mods.

11 minutes ago, SLD said:

an attrWdam_fact of 400

Interesting, didn't know that had been adopted into Addendum.

[SLD 335]

16 minutes ago, Flix said:

Dates back to the earliest iterations of the Community Patch, which is the foundation of both mods.

"Dryad: A faulty modifier of "Envenom"-Mod in "Ravaged Impact" has been corrected. (It caused Weapons to only distribute poison damage.)"

What exactly was changed there? As far as I know at most phys and poison damage would remain.

The modifer change from "500, 10,...  " to 500, 2,..." was the thing I was referring to, which just leads to a horribly low scaling of that mod...

[Maneus 145]

35 minutes ago, SLD said:

"Dryad: A faulty modifier of "Envenom"-Mod in "Ravaged Impact" has been corrected. (It caused Weapons to only distribute poison damage.)"

What exactly was changed there? As far as I know at most phys and poison damage would remain.

The modifer change from "500, 10,...  " to 500, 2,..." was the thing I was referring to, which just leads to a horribly low scaling of that mod...

Interesting. I wonder what the reasoning was. Maybe a hidden bug?

In the unmodded game, you also have:

Magic Coup
entry4 = {"et_physical_to_magic", 500, 20, 0, 5 },

Archangel's Wrath
entry3 = {"et_physical_to_fire", 900, 100, 0, 5 },

Mortifying Pillory
entry1 = {"et_physical_to_poison", 900, 100, 0, 5 },

Dedicated Blow
entry3 = {"et_physical_to_best", 500, 50, 0, 5 },
entry4 = {"et_physical_to_best", 500, 50, 1, 5 },

Primal Mutation
entry4 = {"et_physical_to_fire", 500, 20, 1, 5 },
entry5 = {"et_physical_to_magic", 500, 20, 2, 5 },

Ravaged Impact appears to have the lowest scaling, even before the change.

Anyway, I just realized that Primal Mutation (a spell) has a built-in damage conversion mod. I'll need to look into it. Hopefully, there are no surprises

Edited September 6 by Maneus