# How is Sacred 2 Weapon Damage Calculated

## Recommended Posts

While talking about direct damage I noticed that there is no information about how weapon damage is calculated.

I had only a few old values from pre Ice and Blood on some papers, but comparing these numbers with the damage numbers in Ice and Blood I saw differences which are probably due to a change how stat points are used. Sadly I lack the time to play Sacred2 to do the tests and my daughter is still at hospital. So what I want you to do is helping with tests following test patterns I am asking for.

The test I have done so far:

Using a level 1 character with different white weapons(no attributes on them) using different stats.

Playing bronze (there might be damage multipliers in other difficulties)

No tactic lore taken

Now adding pieces with x% damage and plotting the function. It shows that: damage= weapon-base*(1+x/100)+stat_damage fits very well.

It seems as if the lower value is always rounded down and the upper value always rounded up. All my tests could be explained with this rounding and the above formula.

So it looks as if pressing C and looking at the stat supporting the weapon: the damage is just added last to the formula.

In other words the damage you receive from stats is a fixed amount. However this fixed amount is diffrent for different weapon types.

So the first result is:

Step1: Damage part from the stat supporting the weapon

Different weapon-types - even sharing the same supporting stat - may have different damage-values added by the supporting stat.

This stat related damage part seems to be added after all other damage calculations are done (at least in bronze).

In the final formula step1 will be probably the last step

HELP WANTED!

For the second test pattern I need help from people playing Ice and Blood. Take a naked level 1 character in bronze and equip it with different white weapons.

Write down the character-class, the value of the supporting stat, how much damage it shows, which base damage your weapon has and which type it is (not just throwing weapon). There might even be a difference for the different images of a weapon, so if it is a shuriken write shuriken and perhaps how many points it has. I do not know if there is a difference, but if we add the stat related damage to wiki a list of weapon types would be nice.

So an entry should be like (just some fantasy values):

Dryad, 30 dex, +8weapon damage, 24-32 base-damage, 4-pointed shuriken, damage shown: 31-42

Even this first test made me re-considering my melee characters already. If the stat related damage part is just added last and not boosted by any x% damage stuff- should I stop to push the main stat of my weapon for Ice and Blood builds? Just all into vitality or stamina?

• 13 years later...
• Replies 79
• Created

#### Popular Days

Posted (edited)

I've been doing a lot of tests to figure out how the displayed damage translates into actual damage dealt. And the results are surprising.

In order to do these tests, I edited balance.txt to reduce enemy armor to 0. I also set the enemy health multiplier to a really high value in order to avoid killing anything - we want to avoid the "Damage against enemy type +X%" bonus. I've also been careful to account for changes from the Survival Bonus.

Here are the findings:

1) As long as you are fighting enemies close to your level (see points 2 and 3), and don't have any percentage bonuses (see point 4), then you deal exactly the same damage as displayed in the inventory screen.

Example 1:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 1, using fists

Damage in inventory screen: 9-9

Actual damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 9 for regular hits, 10 for critical hits

Example 2:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

Damage in inventory screen: 171-171

Actual damage dealt to level 200 enemies: 171 for regular hits, 196 for critical hits

Example 3:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists, ~4% survival bonus (increases the strength bonus by 1)

Damage in inventory screen: 172-172

Actual damage dealt to level 201 enemies: 172 for regular hits, 197 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 189 enemies: 172 for regular hits, 197 for critical hits

2) If you fight much lower level enemies than you, you receive an additional multiplier to your damage. If your character is level 5, and you fight a level 1 enemy, then you receive the maximum bonus of around +125% (multiply the total damage by 2.25).

Edit: The multiplier increases gradually as the level difference increases, up to a maximum of ~2.25. But how wide the level difference must be depends on your character level. For example, a level 200 character does not receive this bonus when fighting against a level 176 enemy.

This special bonus is not affected by the difficulty setting.

The bonus might actually be slightly higher, like 2.256. I'm not sure of the exact number.

Example 1:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 5, usings fists

Damage in inventory screen: 13-13

Actual damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 29 for regular hits, 34 for critical hits

Example 2:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

Damage in inventory screen: 171-171

Actual damage dealt to low level enemies: 386 for regular hits, 444 for critical hits

3) Similarly, there is a damage penalty when fighting enemies much higher level than you. But I haven't done any tests about this.

4) When it comes to actual damage dealt, the attribute bonus (from Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence) IS actually multiplied by any percentage bonuses you have.

The formula becomes:

For fists:

FinalDamage = (BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

For weapons:

MinFinalDamage = (MinWeaponDamage + SumFlatBonuses + MinAttributeBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

MaxFinalDamage = (MaxWeaponDamage + SumFlatBonuses + MaxAttributeBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

Example 1:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 1, using fists

I used CharacterEditor to add Tactics Mastery, level 75, which provides a bonus of +180.8%

Damage in inventory screen: 23-23

Expected damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 23 for regular hits

Actual damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 25 for regular hits, 29 for critical hits

If we use the formula to calculate the damage shown in the inventory screen, we get:

BaseFistDamage = 8

StrengthBonus = 1

FinalDamage = ((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + StrengthBonus

FinalDamage = ((8 + 0) * (1 + 1.808)) + 1

FinalDamage = (8 * 2.808) + 1

FinalDamage = 22.464 + 1

FinalDamage = 23.464 (Reference value is 23)

But the actual damage is calculated as:

FinalDamage = (BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

FinalDamage = (8 + 0 + 1) * (1 + 1.808)

FinalDamage = 9 * 2.808

FinalDamage = 25.272 (Reference value is 25)

Example 2:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

+180.8% from Tactics Mastery, level 75

Damage in inventory screen: 404-404

Expected damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 909 for regular hits (404 multiplied by 2.25)

Actual damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 1083 for regular hits, 1246 for critical hits

If we use the formula to calculate the damage shown in the inventory screen, we get:

BaseFistDamage = 129

StrengthBonus = 42

FinalDamage = ((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + StrengthBonus

FinalDamage = ((129 + 0) * (1 + 1.808)) + 42

FinalDamage = (129 * 2.808) + 42

FinalDamage = 362.232 + 42

FinalDamage = 404.232 (Reference value is 404)

But the actual damage is calculated as:

FinalDamage = (BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

FinalDamage = (129 + 0 + 42) * (1 + 1.808)

FinalDamage = 171 * 2.808

FinalDamage = 480.168

Multiplied by 2.25 we get 1080.378 (Reference value is 1083)

Example 3:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

+180.8% from Tactics Mastery, level 75

+200 flat damage from rings

Damage in inventory screen: 965-965

Expected damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 2171.25 for regular hits (965 multiplied by 2.25)

Actual damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 2345 for regular hits, 2760 for critical hits

If we use the formula to calculate the damage shown in the inventory screen, we get:

BaseFistDamage = 129

StrengthBonus = 42

FinalDamage = ((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + StrengthBonus

FinalDamage = ((129 + 200) * (1 + 1.808)) + 42

FinalDamage = (329 * 2.808) + 42

FinalDamage = 923.832 + 42

FinalDamage = 965.832 (Reference value is 965)

But the actual damage is calculated as:

FinalDamage = (BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

FinalDamage = (129 + 200 + 42) * (1 + 1.808)

FinalDamage = 371 * 2.808

FinalDamage = 1041.768

Multiplied by 2.25 we get 2343.978 (Reference value is 2345)

Example 4:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

+180.8% from Tactics Mastery, level 75

+85% Physical Damage (from rings)

Damage in inventory screen: 514-514

Expected damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 1156.5 for regular hits (514 multiplied by 2.25)

Actual damage deal to level 1 enemies: 1412 for regular hits, 1624 for critical hits

If we use the formula to calculate the damage shown in the inventory screen, we get:

BaseFistDamage = 129

StrengthBonus = 42

FinalDamage = ((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + StrengthBonus

FinalDamage = ((129 + 0) * (1 + 1.808 + 0.85)) + 42

FinalDamage = (129 * 3.658) + 42

FinalDamage = 471.882 + 42

FinalDamage = 513.882 (Reference value is 514)

But the actual damage is calculated as:

FinalDamage = (BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

FinalDamage = (129 + 0 + 42) * (1 + 1.808 + 0.85)

FinalDamage = 171 * 3.658

FinalDamage = 625.518

Multiplied by 2.25 we get 1407.4155 (Reference value is 1412)

5) Critical Hits. For spell-based combat arts, they increase the total damage by 20%. But for left-click attacks (and probably weapon-based combat arts) they don't increase the damage as much.

From the above examples:

Given a regular hit of 25, we expect the critical hit to be 30. But it is only 29.

Given a regular hit of 1083, we expect the critical hit to be 1299.6. But it is only 1246.

Given a regular hit of 2345, we expect the critical hit to be 2814. But it is only 2760.

Given a regular hit of 1412, we expect the critical hit to be 1694.4. But it is only 1624.

The reason appears to be that the attribute bonus is not multiplied by the critical hit multiplier. I think this is the correct formula:

For fists:

FinalDamage = (((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * CriticalHitMultiplier) + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

For weapons:

MinFinalDamage = (((MinWeaponDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * CriticalHitMultiplier) + MinAttributeBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

MaxFinalDamage = (((MaxWeaponDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * CriticalHitMultiplier) + MaxAttributeBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

Where:

- CriticalHitMultiplier = 1.2

Example 1:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

Damage in inventory screen: 171-171

Fighting against a level 200 enemy to avoid the 2.25 damage multiplier.

Actual damage dealt to level 200 enemies: 171 for regular hits, 196 for critical hits

Lets apply the formula from above:

BaseFistDamage = 129

StrengthBonus = 42

FinalDamage = (((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * CriticalHitMultiplier) + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

FinalDamage = (((129 + 0) * 1.2) + 42) * (1 + 0)

FinalDamage = 154.8 + 42

FinalDamage = 196.8 (Reference value is 196)

Example 2:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200, using fists

+85% Physical Damage (from rings)

Damage in inventory screen: 280-280, but the actual is 317-317

Fighting against a level 200 enemy to avoid the 2.25 damage multiplier.

Actual damage dealt to level 200 enemies: 317 for regular hits, 364 for critical hits

Lets apply the formula from above:

BaseFistDamage = 129

StrengthBonus = 42

FinalDamage = (((BaseFistDamage + SumFlatBonuses) * CriticalHitMultiplier) + StrengthBonus) * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)

FinalDamage = (((129 + 0) * 1.2) + 42) * (1 + 0.85)

FinalDamage = (154.8 + 42) * 1.85

FinalDamage = 196.8 * 1.85

FinalDamage = 364.08 (Reference value is 364)

Enough for today

Edited by Maneus
Improve explanations and formulas
• 1
• The title was changed to How is Sacred 2 Weapon Damage Calculated
Posted (edited)

The level difference bonus depends mostly on the color of the circle the enemies have under them. The paler the circle, the higher the damage bonus, reaching max when it becomes fully white. Same the other direction and deep purple. The acutal levels for the min and max vary depending on character level.

As for attribute bonuses, do a test with weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if fists were a special case scenario and the behavior was different for actual weapons. I am 99% sure it's just additive. Even just tested. Pumped 100 points into Strength, the Weapon damage bonus increased by 68 and the tooltip damages went up by basically the same amount. Slightly more for Pelting Strikes, so if anything, Strength bonus gets multiplied by the et_mult_weapondamage of a given CA. Definitely not % bonuses, because I tested on a character with nearly a 1000% bonus to damage.

Although..... I'm on the PFP patch. If you arrive at a different conclusion in the full vanilla game, then it's yet another thing that is different. Eagerly awaiting results.

Edited by idbeholdME
• 1
Posted (edited)
On 6/17/2024 at 4:25 PM, SLD said:

Thank you for all the great and detailed work. Now all we need is the attribute question answered for spell CAs. Is it only the tooltip or is the int bonus really multiplicative as you suggested above? I think your Seraphim could "shine some light" on that, I mean on a test enemy that is.

I've taken the liberty of editing some of my old misconceptions and linked to your work there. Just in case someone stumbles upon my ramblings, they'll now be solidly informed by your magnificent data.

It's so nice to have a research scientist join the community

Thank you very much, SLD

In the coming days I plan to go through most of the combat arts to see if my conclusions still hold. There are still some things that the above examples do not cover. I'll certainly take a deeper look into the spell-based combat arts.

On 6/17/2024 at 6:02 PM, idbeholdME said:

The level difference bonus depends mostly on the color of the circle the enemies have under them. The paler the circle, the higher the damage bonus, reaching max when it becomes fully white. Same the other direction and deep purple. The acutal levels for the min and max vary depending on character level.

Yes, the bonus is gradual. And yes, the level difference needs to be higher at high character levels.

Examples:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 5

Damage bonus from strength: 2

Damage in inventory screen: 13-13

Actual damage dealt to level 5 enemies: 13 for regular hits, 15 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 4 enemies: 13 for regular hits, 15 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 3 enemies: 13 for regular hits, 15 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 2 enemies: 20 for regular hits, 24 for critical hits (About 1.538 times higher than normal)

Actual damage dealt to level 1 enemies: 29 for regular hits, 34 for critical hits (About 2.23 times higher than normal)

More examples:

Spoiler

High Elf, level 200

Damage bonus from strength: 43

Damage in inventory screen: 172-172

+5.8% Damage against High Elf

Actual damage dealt to level 189 enemies (high elves): 182 for regular hits, 209 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 177 enemies (high elves): 182 for regular hits, 209 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 176 enemies (high elves): 182 for regular hits, 209 for critical hits

I don't think I can find lower level enemies in niobium. So I went into platinum:

Actual damage dealt to level 121 enemies (high elves): 410 for regular hits, 471 for critical hits

Actual damage dealt to level 134 enemies (high elves): 410 for regular hits, 471 for critical hits

I'll need to go deep into platinum to find higher level enemies, but maybe another time.

Another thing I wanted to point out is that level 189 enemies have a white-green circle below them, and level 177 enemies have a completely white circle below them, but I still don't receive the damage bonus. So I don't think the color of the circle is an accurate indication of when the bonus is applied.

On 6/17/2024 at 6:02 PM, idbeholdME said:

As for attribute bonuses, do a test with weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if fists were a special case scenario and the behavior was different for actual weapons. I am 99% sure it's just additive. Even just tested. Pumped 100 points into Strength, the Weapon damage bonus increased by 68 and the tooltip damages went up by basically the same amount. Slightly more for Pelting Strikes, so if anything, Strength bonus gets multiplied by the et_mult_weapondamage of a given CA. Definitely not % bonuses, because I tested on a character with nearly a 1000% bonus to damage.

I'm curious, did you look at what is displayed in the inventory screen, or the actual damage - the floating numbers when you hit enemies? My tests above suggest that there is a difference between the two. In the inventory screen, yes, the attribute bonus is not multiplied by any percentage bonuses (Tactics Lore, +X% damage rings and whet blacksmith arts, the % bonus from pelting strikes, etc.). It might be multiplied by the et_mult_weapondamage - I will do more tests with combat arts to figure these things out. But when it comes to actual damage dealt, the floating numbers suggest that the attribute bonus is multiplied by all of the percentage bonuses. Unless the floating numbers are misleading too, which is something that I plan to test too.

As for testing with weapons instead of with fists - I'll post some results soon

Edited by Maneus
• 1
Posted (edited)

Here come the weapon tests

Note: The testing is not very thorough as it is very tedious and time-consuming.

High Elf, level 200, starting with 10.6% survival bonus that grew to 20% over the course of the tests

Fighting against a Scarab, level 203

Example 1: No bonuses, just the weapon

Spoiler

Case 1:

Using fists

Damage bonus from strength: 44

Damage in inventory screen: 173-173

Actual damage dealt: 173 for regular hits, 198 for critical hits

Case 2:

Using a dagger with a base damage of 19-22 (The starting dagger from bronze difficulty)

Damage bonus from dexterity: 84

Damage in inventory screen: 97-113

Actual damage dealt: Between 98-113 for regular hits, (116, 110, 110, 112) for critical hits

Case 3:

Using a desert saber with a base damage of 324-388

Damage bonus from strength: 161

Damage in inventory screen: 471-564

Actual damage dealt: Between 472-560 for regular hits, (618, 630, 634, 628, 620, 614, 627, 637, 635) for critical hits

Example 2: Same weapons, but now with added 200 flat damage from rings

Spoiler

Case 4:

Using fists + rings with 200 flat damage

Damage bonus from strength: 44

Damage in inventory screen: 373-373

Actual damage dealt: 373 for regular hits, 439 for critical hits

Case 5:

Using the dagger + rings with 200 flat damage

Damage bonus from dexterity: 85

Damage in inventory screen: 298-313

Actual damage dealt: Between 298-313 for regular hits, (347, 347, 354, 357, 355) for critical hits

Case 6:

Using the desert saber + rings with 200 flat damage

Damage bonus from strength: 163

Damage in inventory screen: 672-766

Actual damage dealt: Between 673-761 for regular hits, (864, 874, 876, 882) for critical hits

Example 3: Same weapons, but instead with added +85% physical damage from rings

Spoiler

Case 7:

Using fists + rings with +85% physical damage

Damage bonus from strength: 44

Damage in inventory screen: 282-282 (MISLEADING)

Actual damage dealt: 320 for regular hits, 368 for critical hits

Case 8:

Using the dagger + rings with +85% physical damage

Damage bonus from dexterity: 85

Damage in inventory screen: 114-132 (MISLEADING)

Actual damage dealt: 205 (Crit), 185, 206, 193, 190, 198, 192, 192, 206, 193, 204, 198, 183, 182, 202, 205, 195, 185, 195, 211 (Crit), 205, 203 (Crit), 190, 186, 183, 195, 203 (Crit), 189, 188, 194

Attribute bonus should be: 79-92

Expected damage range: 181.30-210.90

Case 9:

Using the desert saber + whet blacksmith arts for +86.4% (we can't use the physical damage rings because the desert saber has a magic component)

Damage bonus from strength: 165

Damage in inventory screen: 753-903 (MISLEADING)

Actual damage dealt: 903, 955, 954, 1027, 908, 1047, 912, 964, 1029, 899, 906, 1193 (Crit), 914, 996, 925, 932, 949, 1182 (Crit), 1157 (Crit), 1036, 910, 921, 930, 995, 913, 1036, 903, 1153 (Crit), 966, 1026, 1192 (Crit), 1191 (Crit), 955, 987, 1027, 931, 972, 980, 1160 (Crit), 1035, 965, 958, 1024, 1037, 900, 928, 945, 1166 (Crit), 1153 (Crit), 930 ... 1049 ... 892 ... 1050 ... 889 ... 1052

Attribute bonus should be: 150-180

Expected damage range: 883.54-1058.75

Quick summary:

In example 1 and example 2, we can see that whatever is stated in the inventory screen is the actual damage dealt (according to the floating numbers). In example 3 we can see that once we add a percentage bonus, then a discrepancy appears between what is shown in the inventory screen and the floating numbers.

Also, since the dagger has a very low base damage, there is barely any difference in damage between regular hits and critical hits. This is a very extreme example which shows us that the attribute bonus is not multiplied by the critical hit multiplier.

The sample size is very small and we cannot use that to draw conclusions about specifics, but I think it is enough to illustrate the points I'm trying to make.

Edited by Maneus
• 1
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Maneus said:

I'm curious, did you look at what is displayed in the inventory screen, or the actual damage - the floating numbers when you hit enemies? My tests above suggest that there is a difference between the two. In the inventory screen, yes, the attribute bonus is not multiplied by any percentage bonuses (Tactics Lore, +X% damage rings and whet blacksmith arts, the % bonus from pelting strikes, etc.). It might be multiplied by the et_mult_weapondamage - I will do more tests with combat arts to figure these things out. But when it comes to actual damage dealt, the floating numbers suggest that the attribute bonus is multiplied by all of the percentage bonuses. Unless the floating numbers are misleading too, which is something that I plan to test too.

As for testing with weapons instead of with fists - I'll post some results soon

Just the tooltip. Couldn't really do mild tests because because it was on my fully built level 200 character. So wouldn't really notice a difference between 60K damage and 60.3K damage with the big weapon spread.

But it seems like it'd be pretty easy to test. Just pump Strength to ridiculous levels through character editor, equip some % damage bonuses and then check whether the damage went up by the difference on the attribute tooltip or a lot more.

Also, there is a hidden level scaling for the effectiveness of the attribute bonus based on the weapon level. The higher the weapon level, the less effective the damage bonus from the attribute. Theoretically, if you equipped 2 weapons which were exactly the same other than item level, the higher level item would get lower damage bonus from the attribute. IIRC, this change was introduced in Ice & Blood. In vanilla Sacred 2, the attribute bonuses to weapon damage did actually scale.

It is also possible that the PFP adjusted some weapon calculation logic when it comes to the tooltips and the tooltips actually show the correct values. I know for certain that putting points into Strength or Dexterity for the purposes of weapon damage has next to no effect on the overall damage, even with massive damage bonuses equipped, which made me pretty sure the bonus is just flatly added after all calculations.

Edited by idbeholdME
• 1
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, idbeholdME said:

Now this is breaking some new ground. Don't think it was ever specifically documented, how the various balance.txt parameters affected the weapon and attribute damage calculations.

Looking at the itemLevelMultiplier table, it's no wonder attribute scaling does next to nothing in the late game.

IIRC, in vanilla Sacred 2, without Ice & Blood, the attribute scaling was much better in general. Could probably be interesting to compare the values of these parameters between the versions. I think the itemLevelMultiplier was not present at all before, so it was probably 1 for all item levels. Or the values got massively lower in I&B due to some formula change.

Indeed. As the item level goes up, the bonus from each individual point of strength and/or damage goes down. When testing with fists, it is common to see the bonus damage drop after a level-up. Especially in the early levels. This is because the base fist damage does not increase on every level. Well not that common actually, since the attributes naturally increase too. I forgot I was testing with a constant value

It appears that weapons with high base damage for their item level (typically two-handed) receive the biggest bonus to damage.

Still, the overall sentiment remains the same.

Next, I'll be looking into spell-based combat arts and how intelligence affects them

Edited by Maneus
• 1
6 hours ago, Maneus said:

Another breakthrough! Thank you, idbeholdME, for telling me about attrWdam_fact - that was key!

How the bonus damage from strength is calculated:

The formula is:

DamageBonus = Strength * AverageBaseDamage * attrWdam_fact * ItemLevelMultiplier / BasepointsMultiplier

Where:

- DamageBonus - The value shown in the tooltip when you hover over the strength attribute (Weapon Damage +X)

- Strength - The total strength value (after Survival Bonus).

- AverageBaseDamage - The base fist damage OR the average base damage of the weapon.

- attrWdam_fact - From balance.txt. Default value is 250 (unmodded game).

- BasepointsMultiplier - From balance.txt. Default value is 500 (unmodded game).

- ItemLevelMultiplier - A special multiplier that involves the item level and TopLevelCalc from balance.txt. For fists the item level is equal to the character level. See the table below:

ItemLevelMultiplier table

Reveal hidden contents

How to get these numbers:

Reveal hidden contents

I'm sure the values from the table above are produced from a mathematical function, but I'm not that good at math to find it. It certainly involves the value TopLevelCalc from balance.txt (default value 200). Changing that value produces drastically different results for ItemLevelMultiplier.

Some other notes:

BasepointsMultiplier does not affect fists damage, but it does have a big effect on weapon damage. Setting it to 0 is no different than setting it to 1. I assume this is done to avoid division by 0.

The ItemLevelMultiplier table is not affected by character class or difficulty setting.

The calculated damage bonus can contain a fractional part (e.g. 10.8), but it is shown as 10 in the tooltip. In other words, it is rounded down. But this might be just for presentation. Will have to test.

There are a few very specific cases, where there is a discrepancy between the calculated result and the value shown in-game. For example:

Reveal hidden contents

Enough for now

Edit: The formula for dexterity or intelligence is absolutely the same! Just use dexterity or intelligence instead of strength.

Maneus, thank you for this break neck pace (friend you must have the BEST coffee!!  )  on Sacred 2 Calculations!

I was thinking about getting your work into a area that has even more reach... if you want i can change you into an editor for SacredWiki and you can contribute, copy paste your work into the wiki in the section for for Player Contributed guides...

https://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Sacred_2_Player_Contributed_Guides

and at the bottom of that wiki page you can put in a link linking to your latest work here on this forum.

Would that be okay

gogo

• 1
15 minutes ago, gogoblender said:

Maneus, thank you for this break neck pace (friend you must have the BEST coffee!!  )  on Sacred 2 Calculations!

I was thinking about getting your work into a area that has even more reach... if you want I can change you into an editor for SacredWiki and you can contribute, copy paste your work into the wiki in the section for for Player Contributed guides...

https://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Sacred_2_Player_Contributed_Guides

and at the bottom of that wiki page you can put in a link linking to your latest work here on this forum.

Would that be okay

gogo

Thank you, gogo. That sounds really cool . I do have some ideas... Well, all in good time. Right now I'd like explore more mechanics and do more testing. I'll message you when I think something is worthy enough to put on a wiki

• 1
Posted (edited)

Here are some examples. I'm making a new post because the previous one is too big for comfortable editing.

Example 1: Shadow Warrior, level 1, Skeletal Fortification, level 1

Spoiler

Total intelligence 22

Skeletal Fortification, level 1, no modifications

Spoiler

PhysicalDamage = (700 + (CombatArtLevel * 350)) / 40

PhysicalDamage = 26.25

PhysicalDamage = 26 (Rounded down)

BaseSpellDamage = 26 Physical

No percentage bonuses

attrSdam_fact = 334

IntelligenceDamageBonus = Intelligence * floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) * attrSdam_fact * 0.00004 / (min(BaseCombatArtLevel, ceil(CharacterLevel / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 22 * floor(26 * (1 + 0 )) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(1, ceil(1 / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 22 * floor(26) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(1, 1) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 7.64192 / (1 + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 7.64192 / 2

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 3.82096 (Reference value is 3)

FinalDamage = floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + IntelligenceDamageBonus

FinalDamage = floor(26 * (1 + 0)) + 3

FinalDamage = floor(26) + 3

FinalDamage = 29 (Reference value is 29)

Reference value for combat art level 2 is 40.

Example 2: Shadow Warrior, level 1, Skeletal Fortification, level 49 (Requires Astral Lord Mastery, level 200)

Spoiler

Total intelligence 22

Skeletal Fortification, level 49, no modifications

Spoiler

PhysicalDamage = (700 + (CombatArtLevel * 350)) / 40

PhysicalDamage = 446.25

PhysicalDamage = 446 (Rounded down)

BaseSpellDamage = 446 Physical

No percentage bonuses

attrSdam_fact = 334

IntelligenceDamageBonus = Intelligence * floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) * attrSdam_fact * 0.00004 / (min(BaseCombatArtLevel, ceil(CharacterLevel / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 22 * floor(446  * (1 + 0)) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(49, ceil(1 / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 22 * floor(446) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(49, 1) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 131.08832 / (1 + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 131.08832 / 2

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 65.54416 (Reference value is 64)

FinalDamage = floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + IntelligenceDamageBonus

FinalDamage = floor(446 * (1 + 0)) + 64

FinalDamage = floor(446) + 64

FinalDamage = 510 (Reference value is 510)

Reference value for combat art level 49.6 is 516

Example 3: Shadow Warrior, level 200, Skeletal Fortification, level 1

Spoiler

Total intelligence 462

Skeletal Fortification, level 1, no modifications

Spoiler

PhysicalDamage = (700 + (CombatArtLevel * 350)) / 40

PhysicalDamage = 26.25

PhysicalDamage = 26 (Rounded down)

BaseSpellDamage = 26 Physical

No percentage bonuses

attrSdam_fact = 334

IntelligenceDamageBonus = Intelligence * floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) * attrSdam_fact * 0.00004 / (min(BaseCombatArtLevel, ceil(CharacterLevel / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(26 * (1 + 0)) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(1, ceil(200 / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(26) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(1, ceil(66.666)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 160.48032 / (min(1, 67) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 160.48032 / (1 + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 160.48032 / 2

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 80.24016 (Reference value is 80)

FinalDamage = floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + IntelligenceDamageBonus

FinalDamage = floor(26 * (1 + 0)) + 80

FinalDamage = floor(26) + 80

FinalDamage = 106 (Reference value is 106)

Reference value for combat art level 2 is 106 (The same as level 1)

Example 4: Shadow Warrior, level 200, Skeletal Fortification, level 98 (Requires Astral Lord Mastery, level 200)

Spoiler

Total intelligence 462

Skeletal Fortification, level 98, no modifications

Spoiler

PhysicalDamage = (700 + (CombatArtLevel * 350)) / 40

PhysicalDamage = 875

BaseSpellDamage = 875 Physical

No percentage bonuses

attrSdam_fact = 334

IntelligenceDamageBonus = Intelligence * floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) * attrSdam_fact * 0.00004 / (min(BaseCombatArtLevel, ceil(CharacterLevel / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(875 * (1 + 0)) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(98, ceil(200 / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(875) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(98, ceil(66.666)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 5400.78 / (min(98, 67) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 5400.78 / (67 + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 5400.78 / 68

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 79.4232 (Reference value is 78)

FinalDamage = floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + IntelligenceDamageBonus

FinalDamage = floor(875 * (1 + 0)) + 78

FinalDamage = floor(875) + 78

FinalDamage = 953 (Reference value is 953)

Reference value for combat art level 98.9 is 962

Example 5: Shadow Warrior, level 200, Skeletal Fortification, level 3, +85% physical damage

Spoiler

Total intelligence 462

Skeletal Fortification, level 3, no modifications

Spoiler

PhysicalDamage = (700 + (CombatArtLevel * 350)) / 40

PhysicalDamage = 43.75

PhysicalDamage = 43 (Rounded down)

BaseSpellDamage = 43 Physical

+85% physical damage from rings

attrSdam_fact = 334

IntelligenceDamageBonus = Intelligence * floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) * attrSdam_fact * 0.00004 / (min(BaseCombatArtLevel, ceil(CharacterLevel / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(43 * (1 + 0.85)) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(3, ceil(200 / 3)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(43 * 1.85) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(3, ceil(66.666)) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * floor(79.55) * 334 * 0.00004 / (min(3, 67) + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 462 * 79 * 334 * 0.00004 / (3 + 1)

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 487.61328 / 4

IntelligenceDamageBonus = 121.90332 (Reference value 121)

FinalDamage = floor(BaseSpellDamage * (1 + SumPercentageBonuses)) + IntelligenceDamageBonus

FinalDamage = floor(43 * (1 + 0.85)) + 121

FinalDamage = floor(43 * 1.85) + 121

FinalDamage = floor(79.55) + 121

FinalDamage = 79 + 121

FinalDamage = 200 (Reference value is 200)

Reference value for combat art level 4 is 214.

Edited by Maneus
• 1
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, SLD said:

You don't give any explanation as to how you get this. I guess you have bonus points. But you would have to use the full number of points pre reduction acording to this:

so your calculation is off and as I don't know the number of bonus points you have I can't tell what the correct values would be.

Assuming we do have to use the runes read = BaseCombatArtLevel, which in the previous example would have been 125, we get a result (6723) that is further off from the tooltip in-game (6751). The original discrepancy is also maybe caused due to having a fractional CA level. The game is also finnicky when it comes to rounding those. It could easily be either 125.81 or 125.89.

16 hours ago, SLD said:

I do not understand how you can come to this conclusion. At higher Levels a character is expected to have access to higher attribute values. But also:Higher Level weapons have a higher base damage. So for attacks if you had no "diminishing returns" on the attribute effectiveness 1000 str would add the same relative amount on lvl 1 and a lvl 200 weapon yet its supposed to give about the same absolute amount.

Simply in-the-field experience. At later levels with high level weapons, the damage increases from STR and DEX are basically meaningless, with the base value of attrWdam_fact being as low as it is. Try it yourself with the character editor. Give yourself 500 free points, pump strength and see how slowly the damage goes up when you have a character with level 150+ and have a 175+ level weapon.

The lower level weapons actually do gain much higher attribute bonuses. As can be seen from the table, a level 1 weapon will get roughly 12 times more effective increase in damage from the relevant attribute than a level 200 one. Even then, due to the very low value of attrWdam_fact, the increases are still irrelevant. A single flat damage ring will give you the damage equal to a couple hundred strength points. There is no realistic scenario where putting that point into vitality, stamina or even willpower won't give incomparably more to your character.

Here is a video from a level 200 character with a level 242 weapon (shown at the end of the video), where I dump over 100 points into strength. Strength goes up from 684 to 868 and the tooltip bonus goes up from 347 to 441 and the minimum damage of basic weapon attack goes up by a mere 78 points.

Even tried removing the converter to check whether Strength only increases the physical damage or something but no, the damage increases at the same speed even without the converter.

As for STR and DEX bonuses not being multipled by extra damage, performed a very easy check - Battle Stance with the Aggression mod, which currently gives my character +453.8% extra damage. The value of the STR bonus did not change before and after activating it. So no, they do not scale with % bonuses and are just added additively to the final result, not even the base weapon damage like rings, but just a flat + after all other calculations are done. Meaning irrelevant in the later stages of the game. This is at least how it works with the PFP.

One of 2 things was done in Ice & Blood:

1) Either they disabled the attribute bonus scaling with % bonuses (most likely)

2) They somehow changed the formula for it.

Either way, it used to be viable to put points into STR and DEX before Ice & Blood release and you could meaningfully increase damage with them. So much so in fact, that it was deemed worth nerfing (into oblivion) in the expansion.

Edited by idbeholdME
• 1
18 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

There is no realistic scenario where putting that point into vitality, stamina or even willpower won't give incomparably more to your character.

Well I can say for sure that vitality and willpower do absolutely nothing on a character with 100% mitigation, which I would consider a very realistic scenario...

18 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Here is a video from a level 200 character with a level 242 weapon (shown at the end of the video), where I dump over 100 points into strength. Strength goes up from 684 to 868 and the tooltip bonus goes up from 347 to 441 and the minimum damage of basic weapon attack goes up by a mere 78 points.

Looking at the Video example:
Weapon Damage is 604-853 thats 1457/2 average or ~728.5
The original 684 STR show a damage bonus of 347 which is about 0.507 dmg per point of STR
STR is then being raised to 868 so it goes up by 184 points so STR damage Bonus is expected to rise by ~93.345 damage points
CA dmg rises from 25355-33954 to 25433-34064 which is a change of 78-110 or an average of 188/2 = 94 hmm pretty close

how much did it do now? Well I can't see the rest of the gear but if there were no added dmg rings outside your weapon:
average base dmg goes up from 728,5+347=1031 to 1125 or in realtive terms 94/1031= ~9.1% multiplicative increase in damage. For spending only 139 attribute points. Doesn't look like nothing to me...

18 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

As for STR and DEX bonuses not being multipled by extra damage, performed a very easy check - Battle Stance with the Aggression mod, which currently gives my character +453.8% extra damage. The value of the STR bonus did not change before and after activating it. So no, they do not scale with % bonuses and are just added additively to the final result, not even the base weapon damage like rings, but just a flat + after all other calculations are done. Meaning irrelevant in the later stages of the game. This is at least how it works with the PFP.

And this is were I give up on you. Maneus and I have already told you that the tooltip dmg is WRONG! Your video shows again that you have done no testing at all with the actual damage done and only looked at the proven wrong tooltip to contradict our reality. Here again Maneus' findings:

On 6/16/2024 at 10:02 PM, Maneus said:

4) When it comes to actual damage dealt, the attribute bonus (from Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence) IS actually multiplied by any percentage bonuses you have.

I hope the confusion is now finally cleared up. I don't know what else I could say to make it more clear.

• 1