Temple Guardian Utility Warden build.

[Eternalspirit 0]

I'll start by saying that I just read the TG Utility Warden build guide, but it left me with a few questions. Here is my build:

 

Bargaining - 75

Blacksmith - 75

Enhanced Perception - 75

Devout Guardian Focus - 75

Source Warden Lore - 200

Source Warden Focus - 75

Warding Energy Lore - 75

Combat Discipline - 122

Concentration - 75

Armor Lore - 75

 

Not necessarily in this order. Max SW Lore for as much damage, crit and casting speed as possible, then the rest into CD for the extra damage (could go into Warding Energy Lore or Concentration instead).

 

Everything into Stamina (need lowest possible CA regen).

 

CA mods:

 

T-Energy Shroud (Power, Reduction, Reflection)

Could do Derogate instead of POwer, since you'll be in close combat range the majority of the time with this build, but without Damage Lore, this isn't as effective as it could be.

 

Deathly Spears (Batter, Singe, Jab)

 

Combat Alert (Barricade, Riposte, Party Protection)

Party Protection could be swapped for Permanent instead, but halving all the bonuses + the regeneration time increase by making it a buff may not be entirely worth it. You won't be doing much of anything else anyways, so keeping this active won't be much of a hassle.

 

Primal Mutation (Combust, Helpless, Demolition)

Reducing the attributes of boss opponents will make them easier to kill, and make it harder for them to hit you.

 

Fiery Ember (Incinerate, Churn, Conservation)

Because of the amount of Stamina in this build, Conservation should not be necessary. The whole idea is to make the CA last longer than cooldown + regeneration, so that it can always be up.

 

Ice Evanescence (Icy Needles, Deep Frost, Conservation)

Same thing as Fiery Ember. Since they both cannot be active at the same time, using one as a debuffer and one as a damage dealer won't help much, so just use either one as the situation calls for it.

 

Untouchable Force (Mind Control, Paralyze, Crumble)

Use this as a debuffer. FE and IE will do the damage, use this to make sure the enemies can't hit you as they walk through your Area of Effect.

 

Charged Grid (Havoc, Unnatural Selection, either)

Don't really need the healing since you'll have the shield. For the last mod, it doesn't matter much. Use whatever suits your playstyle.

 

I noticed a few differences in the builds.

 

1. He puts everything into Intelligence instead of Stamina. This seems pointless to me, as Stamina will allow better regen times for CAs, and thus allow more rune eating for CAs. Am I wrong?

 

2. He takes Sustain instead of Conservation for FE and IE. Again, seems pointless.. Conservation = more rune eating = higher duration anyways due to higher theoretical maximum level of CA without hitting a regen wall. More rune eating also means more damage.

 

3. He takes Toughness instead of Enhanced Perception. Is this truly necessary? I am willing to move my Enhanced Perception for something else if necessary, but I'd prefer to keep it. Also, if I really did have to change Enhanced Perception, I'd sooner take Ancient Magic over Toughness, for the extra damage and resistance piercing.

 

4. Speaking of Ancient Magic.. would it be a good idea to take it instead of Combat Discipline? I figure the resistance piercing will more than make up for the loss of damage and regeneration time.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Eternalspirit

[gogoblender 3,070]

I'll start by saying ...

 

Welcome to Darkmatters

 

 

gogo

[Eternalspirit 0]

I'll start by saying ...

 

Welcome to Darkmatters

 

 

gogo

 

Why thank you, kind sir. I've known about this site for a while now, but I've been mostly posting in the official Sacred forums. Seems to be more active here.. hopefully I can get some help with my build. I'm early enough in the character's life that I can restart if something isn't right.

[Capt.Smack87 0]

I'll start by saying that I just read the TG Utility Warden build guide, but it left me with a few questions. Here is my build:

 

Bargaining - 75

Blacksmith - 75

Enhanced Perception - 75

Devout Guardian Focus - 75

Source Warden Lore - 200

Source Warden Focus - 75

Warding Energy Lore - 75

Combat Discipline - 122

Concentration - 75

Armor Lore - 75

 

Not necessarily in this order. Max SW Lore for as much damage, crit and casting speed as possible, then the rest into CD for the extra damage (could go into Warding Energy Lore or Concentration instead).

 

Everything into Stamina (need lowest possible CA regen).

 

CA mods:

 

T-Energy Shroud (Power, Reduction, Reflection)

Could do Derogate instead of POwer, since you'll be in close combat range the majority of the time with this build, but without Damage Lore, this isn't as effective as it could be.

 

Deathly Spears (Batter, Singe, Jab)

 

Combat Alert (Barricade, Riposte, Party Protection)

Party Protection could be swapped for Permanent instead, but halving all the bonuses + the regeneration time increase by making it a buff may not be entirely worth it. You won't be doing much of anything else anyways, so keeping this active won't be much of a hassle.

 

Primal Mutation (Combust, Helpless, Demolition)

Reducing the attributes of boss opponents will make them easier to kill, and make it harder for them to hit you.

 

Fiery Ember (Incinerate, Churn, Conservation)

Because of the amount of Stamina in this build, Conservation should not be necessary. The whole idea is to make the CA last longer than cooldown + regeneration, so that it can always be up.

 

Ice Evanescence (Icy Needles, Deep Frost, Conservation)

Same thing as Fiery Ember. Since they both cannot be active at the same time, using one as a debuffer and one as a damage dealer won't help much, so just use either one as the situation calls for it.

 

Untouchable Force (Mind Control, Paralyze, Crumble)

Use this as a debuffer. FE and IE will do the damage, use this to make sure the enemies can't hit you as they walk through your Area of Effect.

 

Charged Grid (Havoc, Unnatural Selection, either)

Don't really need the healing since you'll have the shield. For the last mod, it doesn't matter much. Use whatever suits your playstyle.

 

I noticed a few differences in the builds.

 

1. He puts everything into Intelligence instead of Stamina. This seems pointless to me, as Stamina will allow better regen times for CAs, and thus allow more rune eating for CAs. Am I wrong?

 

2. He takes Sustain instead of Conservation for FE and IE. Again, seems pointless.. Conservation = more rune eating = higher duration anyways due to higher theoretical maximum level of CA without hitting a regen wall. More rune eating also means more damage.

 

3. He takes Toughness instead of Enhanced Perception. Is this truly necessary? I am willing to move my Enhanced Perception for something else if necessary, but I'd prefer to keep it. Also, if I really did have to change Enhanced Perception, I'd sooner take Ancient Magic over Toughness, for the extra damage and resistance piercing.

 

4. Speaking of Ancient Magic.. would it be a good idea to take it instead of Combat Discipline? I figure the resistance piercing will more than make up for the loss of damage and regeneration time.

 

This is my thoughts on your questions;1.Allways go with int. if you pick SW.Combo it with damage lore and ancient magic for max possible damage.2.By level 100 all of my combat arts are at or above the max combat art level and regen times low because of gear equipped and not from putting points into stamina.

3.Depending on the gear found toughness is awesome,the chest,leg,and shoulders all have damage mit. and toughness helps it even more.If you make a build with EP and bargaining you end up shopping or boss farming more and one skill tends to lose its worth.EP is good for getting larger amounts of gold faster to fuel spending it faster in the shops,thats about it.4.Go with ancient magic it has a support skill called damage lore that just works great together.

[essjayehm 58]

G'day, Eternalspirit! I saw your topic but forgot about it until the good Capn made his reply earlier... hope it's not too late for the answers, below in RED

 

I noticed a few differences in the builds.

 

1. He puts everything into Intelligence instead of Stamina. This seems pointless to me, as Stamina will allow better regen times for CAs, and thus allow more rune eating for CAs. Am I wrong?

Your main attacks, FE, IE and CG, all have cooldowns, which cannot be reduced in any way. Thus, Int as the maximized attribute instead of STA. You are correct... most casters will want lower regens but the other casters don't have that nasty "cooldown" attached to their spells.

 

2. He takes Sustain instead of Conservation for FE and IE. Again, seems pointless.. Conservation = more rune eating = higher duration anyways due to higher theoretical maximum level of CA without hitting a regen wall. More rune eating also means more damage.

In addition to the reason I stated above, longer duration nets more damage better than a couple of CA levels. IMO, as I didn't really test the math on that... but it seems correct, from my experience.

 

3. He takes Toughness instead of Enhanced Perception. Is this truly necessary? I am willing to move my Enhanced Perception for something else if necessary, but I'd prefer to keep it. Also, if I really did have to change Enhanced Perception, I'd sooner take Ancient Magic over Toughness, for the extra damage and resistance piercing.

I think Woody (this is his, isn't it?) played hardcore, so absolutely, yes, Toughness over EP. "Just in case" as the HC players say. Your observation is correct, for non-hardcore.

 

4. Speaking of Ancient Magic.. would it be a good idea to take it instead of Combat Discipline? I figure the resistance piercing will more than make up for the loss of damage and regeneration time.

Absolutely, yes. At the time the guide was written, AM was not a skill choice for the TG. Ice and Blood changed a LOT

[Eternalspirit 0]

Looks like I'm going to need to remake my character.. haha. Changes in red. What do you guys think?

 

Bargaining - 75

Blacksmith - 75

Devout Guardian Focus - 75

Source Warden Lore - 200

Source Warden Focus - 75

Warding Energy Lore - 75

Combat Discipline - 122

Concentration - 75

Armor Lore - 75

Ancient Magic - 75

 

All in on int.

 

CA mods:

 

T-Energy Shroud (Power, Reduction, Reflection)

Could do Derogate instead of POwer, since you'll be in close combat range the majority of the time with this build, but without Damage Lore, this isn't as effective as it could be.

 

Deathly Spears (Batter, Singe, Jab)

 

Combat Alert (Barricade, Riposte, Party Protection)

Party Protection could be swapped for Permanent instead, but halving all the bonuses + the regeneration time increase by making it a buff may not be entirely worth it. You won't be doing much of anything else anyways, so keeping this active won't be much of a hassle.

 

Primal Mutation (Combust, Helpless, Demolition)

Reducing the attributes of boss opponents will make them easier to kill, and make it harder for them to hit you.

 

Fiery Ember (Incinerate, Churn, Sustain)

Because of the amount of Stamina in this build, Conservation should not be necessary. The whole idea is to make the CA last longer than cooldown + regeneration, so that it can always be up.

 

Ice Evanescence (Icy Needles, Deep Frost, Sustain)

Same thing as Fiery Ember. Since they both cannot be active at the same time, using one as a debuffer and one as a damage dealer won't help much, so just use either one as the situation calls for it.

 

Untouchable Force (Mind Control, Paralyze, Crumble)

Use this as a debuffer. FE and IE will do the damage, use this to make sure the enemies can't hit you as they walk through your Area of Effect.

 

Charged Grid (Havoc, Unnatural Selection, either)

Don't really need the healing since you'll have the shield. For the last mod, it doesn't matter much. Use whatever suits your playstyle.

 

I'll keep Bargaining since I feel like shopping for super good accessories will be a lot more valuable than occasionally finding better gear. Mastered Bargaining will also make doing quests more profitable as well. Switching EP for AM to get the best of both worlds with AM and CD. This is non-hardcore, so don't need Toughness, I think.

 

Also looking for input as to where to put skill points beyond mastering skills.

 

Now, the only thing with picking INT over STA and Sustain over Conservation - wouldn't taking the STA and Conservation (and thus, substantially reducing regen times) allow for gear to be optimized more for damage rather than regen? With my current build (STA and Conservation), I'm finding myself trying to get my CA level to the max level before penalties (through +2 FE/+fire damage rings) because the regen time is so low. I also figure that at end game, the +% damage bonus from rings/amulets (for socketing) will be substantial - far more substantial than the extra ~40-50% more damage from going all in on INT over STA. I also read that Conservation has a base +50% regen time.. and 0.5% per CA level. So, theoretically, a level 60-70 FE will have 80-85% faster regen. Once again, this will just allow me to gear for damage more than regen, since it wouldn't be necessary to gear for regen as much, and thus being able to cast another FE just about when the last FE ends (since I'll have super low regen/super high CA level, and thus having the duration close to the CD + regen). Time to experiment!

 

Thanks for your input guys!

 

I think I might get this character to level 100 or so as it stands (with STA and Conservation), and then when I get there and get myself some phat lootz, see if I can compare to someone else's high level TG and compare damage figures.

[essjayehm 58]

I'll keep Bargaining since I feel like shopping for super good accessories will be a lot more valuable than occasionally finding better gear. Mastered Bargaining will also make doing quests more profitable as well. Switching EP for AM to get the best of both worlds with AM and CD. This is non-hardcore, so don't need Toughness, I think.

Sounds good. It seems people are either "shoppers" or "magic finders"... so Barg/EP is usually a preference choice. Keep your energy shield up and Toughness will be an after-thought.

Also looking for input as to where to put skill points beyond mastering skills.

I did miss something here... as a TG-player, I found Untouchable Force completely lacking. Don't get me wrong, it is good for a "cheap" buff (the regen penalty isn't high compared to other buffs) but the benefit it gives can be replaced. This offers a couple of benefits: opens up a skill choice (concentration is not needed); and you don't have to mod UF, so that gets FE and IE fully modified quicker. Shazaam! Now you can pick EP! IF you keep conc, and 2 buffs, then conc. only needs 1 point, ever. As for post-mastery, SW Lore is your #1. I would predict that Blacksmith may be your #2, but as a consoler, I never had the joy of actually using that skill (I did pick it, once Focuses, and Barg/EP (choose 1) would be your next most important skills to pump past 75. Combat Disc. stops at 75, pump AM over CD if you do decide you want more damage than just pumping SW Lore.

 

Now, the only thing with picking INT over STA and Sustain over Conservation - wouldn't taking the STA and Conservation (and thus, substantially reducing regen times) allow for gear to be optimized more for damage rather than regen? With my current build (STA and Conservation), I'm finding myself trying to get my CA level to the max level before penalties (through +2 FE/+fire damage rings) because the regen time is so low. I also figure that at end game, the +% damage bonus from rings/amulets (for socketing) will be substantial - far more substantial than the extra ~40-50% more damage from going all in on INT over STA. I also read that Conservation has a base +50% regen time.. and 0.5% per CA level. So, theoretically, a level 60-70 FE will have 80-85% faster regen. Once again, this will just allow me to gear for damage more than regen, since it wouldn't be necessary to gear for regen as much, and thus being able to cast another FE just about when the last FE ends (since I'll have super low regen/super high CA level, and thus having the duration close to the CD + regen). Time to experiment!

Experimentation! Probably your best bet. Download a level 200 toon and test out the various mods and attribute pumping... I am confident in my analysis

 

Thanks for your input guys!

 

I think I might get this character to level 100 or so as it stands (with STA and Conservation), and then when I get there and get myself some phat lootz, see if I can compare to someone else's high level TG and compare damage figures.

 

I think the download option will be faster... but you will learn a lot more by actually playing out a toon to 100 than to d/l the 200's (and equipment) and do a few "trivial" tests.

[Eternalspirit 0]

I'll keep Bargaining since I feel like shopping for super good accessories will be a lot more valuable than occasionally finding better gear. Mastered Bargaining will also make doing quests more profitable as well. Switching EP for AM to get the best of both worlds with AM and CD. This is non-hardcore, so don't need Toughness, I think.

Sounds good. It seems people are either "shoppers" or "magic finders"... so Barg/EP is usually a preference choice. Keep your energy shield up and Toughness will be an after-thought.

Also looking for input as to where to put skill points beyond mastering skills.

I did miss something here... as a TG-player, I found Untouchable Force completely lacking. Don't get me wrong, it is good for a "cheap" buff (the regen penalty isn't high compared to other buffs) but the benefit it gives can be replaced. This offers a couple of benefits: opens up a skill choice (concentration is not needed); and you don't have to mod UF, so that gets FE and IE fully modified quicker. Shazaam! Now you can pick EP! IF you keep conc, and 2 buffs, then conc. only needs 1 point, ever. As for post-mastery, SW Lore is your #1. I would predict that Blacksmith may be your #2, but as a consoler, I never had the joy of actually using that skill (I did pick it, once Focuses, and Barg/EP (choose 1) would be your next most important skills to pump past 75. Combat Disc. stops at 75, pump AM over CD if you do decide you want more damage than just pumping SW Lore.

 

Now, the only thing with picking INT over STA and Sustain over Conservation - wouldn't taking the STA and Conservation (and thus, substantially reducing regen times) allow for gear to be optimized more for damage rather than regen? With my current build (STA and Conservation), I'm finding myself trying to get my CA level to the max level before penalties (through +2 FE/+fire damage rings) because the regen time is so low. I also figure that at end game, the +% damage bonus from rings/amulets (for socketing) will be substantial - far more substantial than the extra ~40-50% more damage from going all in on INT over STA. I also read that Conservation has a base +50% regen time.. and 0.5% per CA level. So, theoretically, a level 60-70 FE will have 80-85% faster regen. Once again, this will just allow me to gear for damage more than regen, since it wouldn't be necessary to gear for regen as much, and thus being able to cast another FE just about when the last FE ends (since I'll have super low regen/super high CA level, and thus having the duration close to the CD + regen). Time to experiment!

Experimentation! Probably your best bet. Download a level 200 toon and test out the various mods and attribute pumping... I am confident in my analysis

 

Thanks for your input guys!

 

I think I might get this character to level 100 or so as it stands (with STA and Conservation), and then when I get there and get myself some phat lootz, see if I can compare to someone else's high level TG and compare damage figures.

 

I think the download option will be faster... but you will learn a lot more by actually playing out a toon to 100 than to d/l the 200's (and equipment) and do a few "trivial" tests.

 

Damn, you've given me even more to think about.. haha. The reason I got Concentration isn't just for Untouchable Force. It was more in preparation to turn Combat Alert into a buff. Even though CA loses a lot as a buff, the fact that I can instead just use a buffing suit to get it to as high a level as possible, cast it once and never worry about it again is useful. I'm not sure how high I'd be able to eat runes for it before that stops being beneficial (the cooldown + regen gets higher than the duration). I do see your point about Untouchable Force, however.. I haven't run into enough enemies that do enough damage with projectiles to really see much use for Crumble, the Stun is more convenient than useful (although it DOES work on bosses), and the lowered attack speed helps survivability, but T-Energy Shroud should theoretically make that irrelevant.

 

Dropping Conc also gives yet another reason to go the STA/Conservation build as well, since that's quite a bit of regeneration that I'd be missing out on. Moreover, someone on another board said that it's not really worth it to grab a skill if you're not planning on mastering it.. and I kind of agree with him.

 

Do you suggest putting 200 points into anything? The only skill I'd put 200 points into, is SW Lore. After that, I wanted CD/AM for more damage, or SW Focus to get a higher CA level. I never really thought about pumping the general skills higher than 75, since I figured I'd be creating suits for at least Smith and Bargaining. I could see pumping EP past 75, since creating a suit specifically for EP will severely hamper your damage output.

 

As far as STA and Conservation over INT and Sustain.. I guess the question that REALLY needs to be asked, is.. does STA give enough regeneration for your CAs that the amount of gear you have with regeneration being replaced with +damage instead outweigh how much damage all points into INT would give, without affecting the regeneration overall? I have never seen a ring or amulet that has -regen AND +damage, so that's a huge hindrance there. You can find -regen with +skills, but +skills, especially at higher levels of skills, won't give nearly as much damage as straight up +damage, simply because of diminishing returns. Moreover, I don't know how well +damage scales at higher levels, but if the progression is anything like I'm witnessing right now, at very high levels, I should be able to find rings with +20-30% fire damage, if not more. 2-3 of these replacing regen accessories (especially since they can come with +skills as well) will effectively outweigh mass points into INT, thus making points into INT over STA.. useless (since the spell intensity is basically useless for a SW TG). As far as Sustain, the only thing that does for you is extend the length of time that FE will be active. If you can get to the point, with Conservation, that you've pumped enough points into FE that the duration gets at or near the cooldown + regen, then Sustain becomes worthless.. since you'll be doing MORE DPS, and still being able to chain cast FE (I keep saying FE because that's going to be my main Area of Effect.. it has better synergies with DS and PM).

 

I'll continue on with this toon and see how it goes. Maybe I'm right, more than likely I'm wrong, but we'll see. ^^ The only potential mistake I can see in my build right now is taking Concentration. If I can get to the point where CA is at a very high level, with a duration that exceeds the CD + regen, AND still not have to replace +damage stuff with -regen to make up for the lost regen of Concentration, then it is indeed a wasted skill selection. Somehow, I don't think that's going to happen, however.

[Eternalspirit 0]

OK.. I will admit that Sustain is probably much better than Conservation (24 second FE compared to 21.6 regen + cooldown).. but INT is almost completely worthless. Level 90.3 FE goes from 1200 to 1287 damage with all in on INT.

[essjayehm 58]

Oh yeah... the attribute debate. IMO, it really doesn't matter which one you pump... the end results are small. You may as well go for WILLPOWER... that is where your base shield strength comes from, and it increases your spell resistance. Win/win for the TG (with Ice and Blood).

 

Hrm... forgot about Battle Aura... I usually play melee or melee-heavy so stacking Battle stances is "teh pwnge" as the kids say. But for a caster, it makes sense. With a buff-suit (as you said), you don't lose much except "forgetting to re-cast it", which is a good thing^tm. So you can choose between Concentration and EP as your last optional skill... I don't see any HUGE advantage one has over the other, unless you consider that you can download any set, unique or legendary you want and you can totally skip EP.

[Eternalspirit 0]

Oh yeah... the attribute debate. IMO, it really doesn't matter which one you pump... the end results are small. You may as well go for WILLPOWER... that is where your base shield strength comes from, and it increases your spell resistance. Win/win for the TG (with Ice and Blood).

 

Hrm... forgot about Battle Aura... I usually play melee or melee-heavy so stacking Battle stances is "teh pwnge" as the kids say. But for a caster, it makes sense. With a buff-suit (as you said), you don't lose much except "forgetting to re-cast it", which is a good thing^tm. So you can choose between Concentration and EP as your last optional skill... I don't see any HUGE advantage one has over the other, unless you consider that you can download any set, unique or legendary you want and you can totally skip EP.

 

I just ran a few tests, and the overall effects of Concentration aren't significant. The regeneration time went down by like 0.3 seconds. The biggest advantage of Concentration is being able to stack buffs.

 

The overall effects of the attributes aren't hugely significant either. The biggest change I saw from INT was Primal Mutation getting about 1000 extra damage.. but when you're already doing over 15000, that doesn't make a big difference. FE gained about 150 damage with INT.. not that much at all. STA seemed slightly better, as pumping everything into STA reduced the regeneration of FE by about 2 seconds or so.. and considering that eating runes adds more to the CA regeneration than stacking CA levels with skills, this is probably quite important.

 

The absolutely funniest thing I saw was that with all this end game gear, I have no problem getting FE up to over level 100 just with gear alone.. and that's without socketing anything. At that point, I'd probably just end up fitting my gear with +all skills, +fire damage rings (the scaling was even more ridiculous than I thought.. +~50% extra fire damage from a level 250 ring). This would give me the overall benefits from the all skills, and the crazy amounts of damage from the fire damage mod. Either that, or run speed/fire damage.

 

As for EP, I was planning on making an EP HE anyways, since I wanted to remake my HE without Bargaining.. so I'll just go with Concentration/all in on STA (I get your point about WP, but a mastered WEL with no gear to buff my shield netted me a shield with almost 40k power), and Sustain. Going to have to remake my toon because of the last point, haha. I didn't realize just how good Sustain really was until I did these tests.

 

Also, do end game TGs tend to use their sets? If I end up eating a lot of runes, the bonuses on the sets that give Combat Art levels would become a hindrance more than a boon, and I'm finding that storebought rares and such can come with much better overall mods. The set bonuses are nice, but I can replace those easily with storebought stuff as well.

[essjayehm 58]

The absolutely funniest thing I saw was that with all this end game gear, I have no problem getting FE up to over level 100 just with gear alone.. and that's without socketing anything. At that point, I'd probably just end up fitting my gear with +all skills, +fire damage rings (the scaling was even more ridiculous than I thought.. +~50% extra fire damage from a level 250 ring). This would give me the overall benefits from the all skills, and the crazy amounts of damage from the fire damage mod. Either that, or run speed/fire damage.

 

As for EP, I was planning on making an EP HE anyways, since I wanted to remake my HE without Bargaining.. so I'll just go with Concentration/all in on STA (I get your point about WP, but a mastered WEL with no gear to buff my shield netted me a shield with almost 40k power), and Sustain. Going to have to remake my toon because of the last point, haha. I didn't realize just how good Sustain really was until I did these tests.

 

Also, do end game TGs tend to use their sets? If I end up eating a lot of runes, the bonuses on the sets that give Combat Art levels would become a hindrance more than a boon, and I'm finding that storebought rares and such can come with much better overall mods. The set bonuses are nice, but I can replace those easily with storebought stuff as well.

I dunno about end-game... I get sickandtired of playing a toon for more than about 70-100 hours... so I don't typically get to over level 100.

 

Ice and Blood limited rune-eating to 200 per CA. Bonuses from equipment DO become relevant, IMO... but to use sets or bargained equipment has always been debated.

 

I don't think a 40K shield is strong enough. Depends on what Absorbtion amount you run... if you go 100% will be getting dropped all the time, and without constitution or pumping vitality running only 80 or 90% will still be iffy. I think you are getting close to glass cannon territory, without the cannon part. If you are inclined enough to test some more... go shop 3 amulets with "shield strength +x%" and see where that gets your shields (over 150K is getting "better")... then pump WP until you get close to the 150K mark (@ level 200).

[Eternalspirit 0]

The absolutely funniest thing I saw was that with all this end game gear, I have no problem getting FE up to over level 100 just with gear alone.. and that's without socketing anything. At that point, I'd probably just end up fitting my gear with +all skills, +fire damage rings (the scaling was even more ridiculous than I thought.. +~50% extra fire damage from a level 250 ring). This would give me the overall benefits from the all skills, and the crazy amounts of damage from the fire damage mod. Either that, or run speed/fire damage.

 

As for EP, I was planning on making an EP HE anyways, since I wanted to remake my HE without Bargaining.. so I'll just go with Concentration/all in on STA (I get your point about WP, but a mastered WEL with no gear to buff my shield netted me a shield with almost 40k power), and Sustain. Going to have to remake my toon because of the last point, haha. I didn't realize just how good Sustain really was until I did these tests.

 

Also, do end game TGs tend to use their sets? If I end up eating a lot of runes, the bonuses on the sets that give Combat Art levels would become a hindrance more than a boon, and I'm finding that storebought rares and such can come with much better overall mods. The set bonuses are nice, but I can replace those easily with storebought stuff as well.

I dunno about end-game... I get sickandtired of playing a toon for more than about 70-100 hours... so I don't typically get to over level 100.

 

Ice and Blood limited rune-eating to 200 per CA. Bonuses from equipment DO become relevant, IMO... but to use sets or bargained equipment has always been debated.

 

I don't think a 40K shield is strong enough. Depends on what Absorbtion amount you run... if you go 100% will be getting dropped all the time, and without constitution or pumping vitality running only 80 or 90% will still be iffy. I think you are getting close to glass cannon territory, without the cannon part. If you are inclined enough to test some more... go shop 3 amulets with "shield strength +x%" and see where that gets your shields (over 150K is getting "better")... then pump WP until you get close to the 150K mark (@ level 200).

 

With a level 40 T-Energy Shroud, level 136 Warding Energy Lore, the buff goes from ~37k shield to ~51k shield when going all in on WP. I was previously mistaken about STA as well.. the difference is nigh unnoticeable.. a mere 1.3 seconds. This is with 3 Second Rings, a Lord Wynne's Amulet (w/e it's called), and the full T-Energy set.. nothing socketed anywhere.

 

I imagine that with a proper buffing suit, T-Energy Shroud closer to level 100-150 would be extremely powerful with full WP. I'm curious.. would going all in on WP also pave the way to get the second Power mod on TES rather than Reflection? Since WP would increase spell resistance by that much..

 

As well, isn't the buff's power kind of insignificant anyways? The Riposte mod on Combat Alert/Battle Aura reflects melee damage, which will be the majority of the damage that is taken.. and most of it will get reflected because of Battle Aura, especially after activating it with a buff suit.

 

The reason I'm concerned about +combat art bonuses on equipment being a hindrance is that if I eat a lot of runes (and thus eating the full hit of regeneration penalties rather than half from increasing via gear), I'm going to get to the point where I'm severely increasing the CA well past the maximum level allowed by my Focus skill. This is extremely inefficient and bloats the regeneration time by a lot. Won't this essentially not be worth it in the long run?

 

Anyways, judging from these results, the order I'd likely rank pumping stats is WP = INT > STA. The STA bonuses are incredibly underwhelming, a whole 1.3 second regeneration bonus. It probably helps more if you're eating the runes rather than increasing the CA level via gear, but even eating runes still probably won't get it to the point where the regen + CD overtakes the duration. I mean, it'll have to overcome about an 8 second difference between the CD and duration (duration at level 103 is about 25 seconds.. the CD + regen was about 17.5 with 2 buffs active). I'll probably hold off spending any attribute points on my new character. These results aren't the best because the character isn't fully geared yet, so it remains to be seen just how much of an effect each stat has. I can probably wait until like level 100 before spending any stat points, then saving and trying out different combinations, since I can just end the process from the task manager to avoid saving the changes entirely.

 

Very curious to see where this goes.. this has been an excellent discussion!

 

EDIT: I should also point out that all of these results were with about a 3% survival bonus.. so the regen before pumping attributes, damage, and all that stuff will be even higher. Adding points will also be more effective. These level 200 toons don't have much survival bonus.. haha.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Eternalspirit

[essjayehm 58]

With a level 40 T-Energy Shroud, level 136 Warding Energy Lore, the buff goes from ~37k shield to ~51k shield when going all in on WP. I was previously mistaken about STA as well.. the difference is nigh unnoticeable.. a mere 1.3 seconds. This is with 3 Second Rings, a Lord Wynne's Amulet (w/e it's called), and the full T-Energy set.. nothing socketed anywhere.

Yeah... that 1.3 seconds could make a difference if there wasn't any cooldown on your SW combat arts... wow on that TES increase just from the 400 or so points in WP!

 

I imagine that with a proper buffing suit, T-Energy Shroud closer to level 100-150 would be extremely powerful with full WP. I'm curious.. would going all in on WP also pave the way to get the second Power mod on TES rather than Reflection? Since WP would increase spell resistance by that much..

My toons all played with both power mods - but on console it's a bit different. Ice and Blood spells and DoT's (damage over time) actually do damage a lot more than console so you have to consider what you're getting: Spell resistance gives a chance to halve incoming spell damage (also reduces the "duration" of DoT). The reflection mod gives 15% + 1%perCA level of reflecting spells.... so when the spells really start to hurt in the higher-difficluties, you should be able to get close to 100% reflection (which comes at TES at level 85). IMO, it's a no-brainer and you should go with the Reflection over Power for the gold mod.

 

As well, isn't the buff's power kind of insignificant anyways? The Riposte mod on Combat Alert/Battle Aura reflects melee damage, which will be the majority of the damage that is taken.. and most of it will get reflected because of Battle Aura, especially after activating it with a buff suit.

On console, Riposte is the be-all end-all of defence for the TG. IMO, you can go without the TES buff if you keep stacked alerts active all the time. Not exactly the case with Ice and Blood, as I said above the spells and DoT's got some teeth with the expansion.

 

The reason I'm concerned about +combat art bonuses on equipment being a hindrance is that if I eat a lot of runes (and thus eating the full hit of regeneration penalties rather than half from increasing via gear), I'm going to get to the point where I'm severely increasing the CA well past the maximum level allowed by my Focus skill. This is extremely inefficient and bloats the regeneration time by a lot. Won't this essentially not be worth it in the long run?

For FE and IE, the short answer is no. IIRC, duration increases more than the regen increase so once your SW focus (and other regen-reducing factors) get to a certian point, you can "go infinite"... er well up to the 200 rune-eating limit.

 

Anyways, judging from these results, the order I'd likely rank pumping stats is WP = INT > STA. The STA bonuses are incredibly underwhelming, a whole 1.3 second regeneration bonus. It probably helps more if you're eating the runes rather than increasing the CA level via gear, but even eating runes still probably won't get it to the point where the regen + CD overtakes the duration. I mean, it'll have to overcome about an 8 second difference between the CD and duration (duration at level 103 is about 25 seconds.. the CD + regen was about 17.5 with 2 buffs active). I'll probably hold off spending any attribute points on my new character. These results aren't the best because the character isn't fully geared yet, so it remains to be seen just how much of an effect each stat has. I can probably wait until like level 100 before spending any stat points, then saving and trying out different combinations, since I can just end the process from the task manager to avoid saving the changes entirely.

The above paragraph can be summed up with:

 

Very curious to see where this goes.. this has been an excellent discussion!

Oh most definitely! I don't think there hasn't been a detailed post-Ice and Blood discussion for SW TG's...

 

EDIT: I should also point out that all of these results were with about a 3% survival bonus.. so the regen before pumping attributes, damage, and all that stuff will be even higher. Adding points will also be more effective. These level 200 toons don't have much survival bonus.. haha.

[Eternalspirit 0]

With a level 40 T-Energy Shroud, level 136 Warding Energy Lore, the buff goes from ~37k shield to ~51k shield when going all in on WP. I was previously mistaken about STA as well.. the difference is nigh unnoticeable.. a mere 1.3 seconds. This is with 3 Second Rings, a Lord Wynne's Amulet (w/e it's called), and the full T-Energy set.. nothing socketed anywhere.

Yeah... that 1.3 seconds could make a difference if there wasn't any cooldown on your SW combat arts... wow on that TES increase just from the 400 or so points in WP!

 

I imagine that with a proper buffing suit, T-Energy Shroud closer to level 100-150 would be extremely powerful with full WP. I'm curious.. would going all in on WP also pave the way to get the second Power mod on TES rather than Reflection? Since WP would increase spell resistance by that much..

My toons all played with both power mods - but on console it's a bit different. Ice and Blood spells and DoT's (damage over time) actually do damage a lot more than console so you have to consider what you're getting: Spell resistance gives a chance to halve incoming spell damage (also reduces the "duration" of DoT). The reflection mod gives 15% + 1%perCA level of reflecting spells.... so when the spells really start to hurt in the higher-difficluties, you should be able to get close to 100% reflection (which comes at TES at level 85). IMO, it's a no-brainer and you should go with the Reflection over Power for the gold mod.

 

As well, isn't the buff's power kind of insignificant anyways? The Riposte mod on Combat Alert/Battle Aura reflects melee damage, which will be the majority of the damage that is taken.. and most of it will get reflected because of Battle Aura, especially after activating it with a buff suit.

On console, Riposte is the be-all end-all of defence for the TG. IMO, you can go without the TES buff if you keep stacked alerts active all the time. Not exactly the case with Ice and Blood, as I said above the spells and DoT's got some teeth with the expansion.

 

The reason I'm concerned about +combat art bonuses on equipment being a hindrance is that if I eat a lot of runes (and thus eating the full hit of regeneration penalties rather than half from increasing via gear), I'm going to get to the point where I'm severely increasing the CA well past the maximum level allowed by my Focus skill. This is extremely inefficient and bloats the regeneration time by a lot. Won't this essentially not be worth it in the long run?

For FE and IE, the short answer is no. IIRC, duration increases more than the regen increase so once your SW focus (and other regen-reducing factors) get to a certian point, you can "go infinite"... er well up to the 200 rune-eating limit.

 

Anyways, judging from these results, the order I'd likely rank pumping stats is WP = INT > STA. The STA bonuses are incredibly underwhelming, a whole 1.3 second regeneration bonus. It probably helps more if you're eating the runes rather than increasing the CA level via gear, but even eating runes still probably won't get it to the point where the regen + CD overtakes the duration. I mean, it'll have to overcome about an 8 second difference between the CD and duration (duration at level 103 is about 25 seconds.. the CD + regen was about 17.5 with 2 buffs active). I'll probably hold off spending any attribute points on my new character. These results aren't the best because the character isn't fully geared yet, so it remains to be seen just how much of an effect each stat has. I can probably wait until like level 100 before spending any stat points, then saving and trying out different combinations, since I can just end the process from the task manager to avoid saving the changes entirely.

The above paragraph can be summed up with:

 

Very curious to see where this goes.. this has been an excellent discussion!

Oh most definitely! I don't think there hasn't been a detailed post-Ice and Blood discussion for SW TG's...

 

EDIT: I should also point out that all of these results were with about a 3% survival bonus.. so the regen before pumping attributes, damage, and all that stuff will be even higher. Adding points will also be more effective. These level 200 toons don't have much survival bonus.. haha.

 

Yeah, the 1.3 seconds would be nice without a cooldown. The problem is, the duration owns the cooldown + regen, so I can still chain cast FE. I can't see an SW build that could really take advantage of STA. Maybe DG hybrid that relies more on Deathly Spears instead of Primal Mutation for bosses?

 

Noted on the gold mod for TES.

 

Riposte doesn't work on spells, AFAIK. It says it reflects close combat damage, which I assume means melee.

 

I figured that might be the case with duration vs. regen. Concentration + SW Focus + Combat Discipline + whatever I have from gear..

 

I'd like to have a more detailed discussion about raising skills past mastery. I like that idea for SW Lore, because it gives a nice combination of bonuses (don't know if you can get execution speed, crit AND damage anywhere else). After that, I'm thinking of dumping the rest into SW Focus, just to get the maximum possible CA level. I think that might outweigh the damage gained from putting more points into AM or CD. Bargaining is another option, I suppose.

 

Looking at the full tables from the Wiki, SW Lore past 150 gets some pretty heavy diminishing returns. From 150-200: 52% damage, 2.6% crit, 10.5% execution speed. Looking at, for example AM, 75-125 gives 55% extra damage and 11.8% immunity piercing. Hmm.. SW Lore seems better. CD, 75 to 125 gets 82.3%, quite significant. I suppose this would be a valuable discussion if I wasn't going to have over +100 skills by end game.. haha. My skills are going to be at a point where extra levels probably won't do much anyways. SW Focus might be the way to go, since the max level increase doesn't suffer from diminishing returns (AFAIK anyways). Bargaining, ultimately might be the best choice, just so I can get as close to tier 12 items from shops as possible. Thoughts?

[essjayehm 58]

Yeah, the 1.3 seconds would be nice without a cooldown. The problem is, the duration owns the cooldown + regen, so I can still chain cast FE. I can't see an SW build that could really take advantage of STA. Maybe DG hybrid that relies more on Deathly Spears instead of Primal Mutation for bosses?

 

A trick I employed with FE and IE would be to gather a group, and then cast one... move "a screen" or whatever area the spell covers, then cast the other. That stategy doesn't try to "balance" regen+cooldown=duration, so I had never really put any effort into that. Stamina pumping is for LF TG's, if I assume correctly.

 

Noted on the gold mod for TES.

 

Riposte doesn't work on spells, AFAIK. It says it reflects close combat damage, which I assume means melee.

On console, spells and Area of Effect are essentially toothless. Not so on PC with the expansion (or CM-patches), so Riposte on console, is the be-all-end-all.

 

I figured that might be the case with duration vs. regen. Concentration + SW Focus + Combat Discipline + whatever I have from gear..

 

I'd like to have a more detailed discussion about raising skills past mastery. I like that idea for SW Lore, because it gives a nice combination of bonuses (don't know if you can get execution speed, crit AND damage anywhere else). After that, I'm thinking of dumping the rest into SW Focus, just to get the maximum possible CA level. I think that might outweigh the damage gained from putting more points into AM or CD. Bargaining is another option, I suppose.

 

Unfortunately, I really don't have any experience with "past mastery" skills... your comments here hold water with everything I have read on this site. SW Lore and Focus, for sure, are beneficial. AM > CD, for the immunity reductions. Armour and WEL don't really need anything past mastery, and as you say below, Barg. kinda needs the points if you intend on leaning on it in the later levels.

 

Looking at the full tables from the Wiki, SW Lore past 150 gets some pretty heavy diminishing returns. From 150-200: 52% damage, 2.6% crit, 10.5% execution speed. Looking at, for example AM, 75-125 gives 55% extra damage and 11.8% immunity piercing. Hmm.. SW Lore seems better. CD, 75 to 125 gets 82.3%, quite significant. I suppose this would be a valuable discussion if I wasn't going to have over +100 skills by end game.. haha. My skills are going to be at a point where extra levels probably won't do much anyways. SW Focus might be the way to go, since the max level increase doesn't suffer from diminishing returns (AFAIK anyways). Bargaining, ultimately might be the best choice, just so I can get as close to tier 12 items from shops as possible. Thoughts?

 

I believe there are 2 main arguments: balance or min/max. I am a 'balanced' player so I'd pump most of my skills to 100 or 125. Min/max players will probably go all-in on damage, so lore/focus to 200, rest into AM, if I guess correctly.

[Eternalspirit 0]

Yeah, the 1.3 seconds would be nice without a cooldown. The problem is, the duration owns the cooldown + regen, so I can still chain cast FE. I can't see an SW build that could really take advantage of STA. Maybe DG hybrid that relies more on Deathly Spears instead of Primal Mutation for bosses?

 

A trick I employed with FE and IE would be to gather a group, and then cast one... move "a screen" or whatever area the spell covers, then cast the other. That stategy doesn't try to "balance" regen+cooldown=duration, so I had never really put any effort into that. Stamina pumping is for LF TG's, if I assume correctly.

 

Noted on the gold mod for TES.

 

Riposte doesn't work on spells, AFAIK. It says it reflects close combat damage, which I assume means melee.

On console, spells and Area of Effect are essentially toothless. Not so on PC with the expansion (or CM-patches), so Riposte on console, is the be-all-end-all.

 

I figured that might be the case with duration vs. regen. Concentration + SW Focus + Combat Discipline + whatever I have from gear..

 

I'd like to have a more detailed discussion about raising skills past mastery. I like that idea for SW Lore, because it gives a nice combination of bonuses (don't know if you can get execution speed, crit AND damage anywhere else). After that, I'm thinking of dumping the rest into SW Focus, just to get the maximum possible CA level. I think that might outweigh the damage gained from putting more points into AM or CD. Bargaining is another option, I suppose.

 

Unfortunately, I really don't have any experience with "past mastery" skills... your comments here hold water with everything I have read on this site. SW Lore and Focus, for sure, are beneficial. AM > CD, for the immunity reductions. Armour and WEL don't really need anything past mastery, and as you say below, Barg. kinda needs the points if you intend on leaning on it in the later levels.

 

Looking at the full tables from the Wiki, SW Lore past 150 gets some pretty heavy diminishing returns. From 150-200: 52% damage, 2.6% crit, 10.5% execution speed. Looking at, for example AM, 75-125 gives 55% extra damage and 11.8% immunity piercing. Hmm.. SW Lore seems better. CD, 75 to 125 gets 82.3%, quite significant. I suppose this would be a valuable discussion if I wasn't going to have over +100 skills by end game.. haha. My skills are going to be at a point where extra levels probably won't do much anyways. SW Focus might be the way to go, since the max level increase doesn't suffer from diminishing returns (AFAIK anyways). Bargaining, ultimately might be the best choice, just so I can get as close to tier 12 items from shops as possible. Thoughts?

 

I believe there are 2 main arguments: balance or min/max. I am a 'balanced' player so I'd pump most of my skills to 100 or 125. Min/max players will probably go all-in on damage, so lore/focus to 200, rest into AM, if I guess correctly.

 

If you master every skill you take, you can only get 200 into one skill, and about 122 in another. I really believe in mastering every skill that gets taken, even Devout Guardian Focus (raise the maximum that you can buff TES with) and Concentration (I believe that extra buff + mastery bonus will be better than further points into other skill with diminishing returns). I don't care much for min/maxing, I just want something that works. The only real reason that I even restarted this toon was because Conservation instead of Sustain was a crippling choice.

 

I might put 200 into Bargaining (not sure yet, AT LEAST mastered, and see where +skills take it the rest of the way), and spread the other points around. Probably focus more on SW Lore and Focus, not so much the others.

 

By the way, I've discovered a pretty easy way to level up my toon in the early game. Early game SW SUCKS BALLS, but I found that if I stack Whet into my sockets and try to get as much +attack value as possible, I do pretty well as a hybrid using Dedicated Blow and Fiery Ember on large groups. I'm starting to take a lot of damage because my armor rating is so low, but very soon I'm going to start using TES instead of UF.. just gotta mod it and off I go.

 

By the way, I see what you're saying about Riposte on consoles. Since ranged and magic attacks do almost nothing, you can safely ignore them!

Edited October 1, 2011 by Eternalspirit