Final 2 skills for my melee/shopper TG... Help!

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Hello all!

I really hope someone can help me with my melee TG shopper build... The possibilities on the last 2 skills are killing me! I want to be able to use deathly spears effectively and survive decently. As it stands, my first 8 skills are:

1. Enhanced Perception
2. Bargaining
3. Armor Lore
4. Hafted Weapons
5. Tactics Lore (better weapon damage, DS damage, and derogate damage)
6. Devout Guardian Focus
7. Warding Energy Lore
8. Combat Discipline (haven't taken this YET but it does make deathly spears better I hear)

So this leaves me with a few options for my last two skills. I am keeping combat alert as a castable which hopefully won't force cooldowns too hard on deathly spears and such. Anyways, I've devised a few options for skills 9 and 10:

Option 1: Toughness and Lost Fusion Focus (for modding jolting touch)

Option 2: Concentration (for 2 buffs) and Source Warden Focus (to mod and use the buff untouchable force)

Option 3: Toughness and Concentration (is untouchable force worth using unmodded?)

Option 4: Lost Fusion Focus and Concentration (again, is untouchable force really worth it unmodded?)

I find options 3 and 4 LEAST compelling. Option one seems legitimate to me but then I miss out on a bunch of potential stun from not having UF. Option 2 seems good but then I only have an unmodded jolting touch and I miss out on toughness. Can my TG make it by with just armor lore and warding energy lore?

I could always not take combat discipline, lose out on some DS damage (idk how much), and then come away with a little more options. Help.

PLEASE help! I would really appreciate it!!!

[gogoblender 3,068]

Here to welcome you to DarkMatters John!

And boosting up your topic today, so that hopefully one of the local Temple Guardian specialists can help you out. I never played through for TG, was more into Dryag, but I know there are some great Boss Killer builds here with TG, and apparently TG mechanics are nice and complex

 

 

gogo

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Thank you very much! I am waiting it out and playing my other character in the meantime.

As of right now I am leaning towards combat discipline, concentration, and source warden focus. If I chose these three though, I would lose out on toughness. However, I hear modded untouchable force could really help me out AND that combat discipline would increase my damage potential. I took derogate on my shield and I read that the damage increases with tactics lore and combat discipline, so maybe taking both would make derogate legitimate. I do worry about survivability, but I kind of hope armor lore and warding energy lore will be enough. Still, I'm not making a move really until someone (hopefully) helps me out! :]

Also I'm wondering what to do with attribute points. I know stamina is good for a TG, but if I skip toughness, maybe I ought to pump vitality for when my shield fails me?

Edited September 7, 2013 by ASleeplessWolf

[wolfie2kX 528]

Welcomed to DarkMatters.

 

 

First off... You DO want Concentration. And not because it gives you 2 buffs. It reduces the regeneration nerf from your combat arts. Remember, the faster you kill your opponents, the less chance they have to kill YOU. The lower the regen, the more you can spam your combat arts to accomplish that goal.

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Between SW focus and concentration, hypothetically (and devout guardian focus), my cooldowns would be exceptional. Still, I worry about lacking toughness. I'm thinking I should pump warding energy lore after I get mastery in other things if I go this route...

[wolfie2kX 528]

John...

 

Take Toughness AND Concentration, then.

 

As I said previously... The faster you can spam death onto your enemies, the less chance they have of killing you.

 

It is FAR better to keep your CA regen times reasonable and be able to use your CAs in a way you can use them quickly, than to eat every rune in sight for that CA and find yourself waiting as your enemies are pounding you into the ground..

 

It's also my understanding that Regen per Hit also works on the console... Get some of those and wear or socket them.

 

Yes, you will probably be sacrificing some defense - but you also need to think offense. There needs to be balance in the two.

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

So you're saying that concentration > combat discipline then? Offensively speaking?

I have 3 skills left to take. But if I take concentration, then I should take source warden focus so I can mod untouchable force. UF is likely next to useless unmodded.

From what I understand combat discipline not only increases cooldowns but also increases damage on things like deathly spears and t-energy shroud's derogate mod.

[wolfie2kX 528]

Well.. Concentration for sure.. Combat Discipline is good.. Toughness is also a good option.

 

But go for Source Warden Focus ONLY if you plan on using CAs from that aspect regularly on an offensive basis. It would be a wasted skill if you're not going to do much, if anything with the CAs there.

 

Look at what skills you use regularly and then work on boosting them. If you've got all the bases there covered, then look around and see what else needs to be bolstered.

Edited September 9, 2013 by wolfie2kX

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

This is taken from the sacred 2 wiki. It describes the mods for untouchable force. If I modded untouchable force through taking SW focus, I could gain an additional 5% chance to stun with the buff's pulses, a 30% decrease to all surrounding enemies attack speeds, and, finally, a 30% chance to deflect projectiles.

 

Do you not think that is worth SW focus alone?

[SX255 630]

Yes, SW focus alone is good if you only use Untouchable Force buff and maybe one other Source Warden art from time to time.

Most enemies prefer to get up-close and personal, others just lob thing at you like a tennis ball machines. Untouchable Force stun and projectile destruction will change that greatly. The stun in particular not only makes the enemies forget what they are doing for a second or two, but also gives you a break from their special routines like selfhealing, debuffing and so on.

And if you are worried that much about survivability, put points into vitality until it stops bugging you and keep more potions on you.

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

SX255--thanks for your opinion! The survivability thing only bothers me because I'd like to take this shopper into higher difficulties eventually. I think I can counteract the lack of toughness with a lot of vitality and warding energy lore. Additionally, I won't miss stamina too much since concentration and combat discipline both ought to help with cooldowns!

Wolfie--thank you for all your input as well. It helps to have a critical eye. :]

I think then I will start pumping vitality and for my 8th, 9th, and 10th skills I will take concentration, source warden focus, and combat discipline. All attribute points shall switch from stamina to VIT.

I will still keep the skill slots open just in case anyone has differing opinions. I know I will be missing out on modding jolting touch this way (unfortunate because it seems modded JT adds a fair amount of survivability), but I think I'd prefer to rock untouchable force modded. Let me know people and thanks again for the help! It deems Darkmatters is much more active still than the official sacred forums.

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Thinking about it now, would I be better off pumping willpower since I heard it boosts the energy shield?

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Also, I noticed that when I use deathly spears or dedicated blow, it delays my re-casting of combat alert... Will this be a problem? Should I make combat alert a buff so I don't have to worry about the forced cooldown phenomenon? Note: my devout guardian focus is only in the teens.

[SX255 630]

No idea on willpower and energy shield correlation. I put more points into dexterity than willpower. With battle recharge energy shield and Warding Energy Lore the shields should never run out during most battles.

 

 

As for Combat Alert, it depends on managing the cooldown and duration of the art.

 

Making it a buff is very usefull, but dont rush with it. Even if you make it a buff, you will need to be at least level 75 and put 75 skill points into Concentration to use all 3 buffs at the same time. Until then making it a buff, while relying more on the other 2 buffs, will make it useless. Also, it’s a buff, so it will add cooldown to the other arts.

 

I passed the silver difficulty at level 76 almost never using Combat Alert. But on gold I found Combat Alert buff (Battle Aura) very helpful.

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Okay, I guess I'll kind of wing it. I know I could hold my points and see if I really want the UF buff and combat aura buff depending on that whole forced cooldown situation, but I really want to take SWF and mod UF... So good luck to me I guess.

There's a very good possbility I will be using battle extension into higher levels (?) maybe... Because my only offensive moves will be deathly spears and dedicated blow which are all from the same tree. With that said maybe I should invest in strength... Still, I think willpower is necessary since I DIDN'T TAKE RECHARGE (I read it was next to useless in higher levels).

This is why I almost took lost fusion focus to mod jolting touch (because it helps with cooldowns and defense). But UF modded seems too cool to pass up.

If anyone has additional advice... I'd appreciate it.

[wolfie2kX 528]

John..

 

Don't be such a worry wart.. Just go in and have fun with it. If you make a mistake - it's not the end of the world. Learn from it and do better next time. It's half the fun of the game - learning new things like what works and how.

 

And some things are best learned from experience.

[DaveO 88]

If you use more than a few Combat Arts, then Combat Discipline will help the damage of all of them. If you rarely use more than a handful of Combat Arts then I'd avoid Combat Discipline. I do believe that Concentration is a good pick. You may want to think about Source Warden Focus or Lore along with Lost Fusion Focus/Lore. The only reason to choose all three depends on whether you want all of the trees available rather than two. Warding Energy Lore bumps up the shield points much more than only Willpower.

 

You'll definitely want your shield to have a lot of power since you are not choosing Constitution as a skill.

Edited September 11, 2013 by DaveO

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Wolfie--thank you. I understand about not worrying but I wanna maximize my odds for success since I'm working with a co-op partner on a limited schedule.

Dave: Well I have already taken concentration, so I have incentive to use 2 buffs... That means that I'm partially committed to SWF. It wouldn't be a waste still if I turned battle aura into a buff. Then again, concentration is arguably useful without buff consideration. Anyways, I was looking to take combat discipline so that derogate mod on my shield would do more damage (along with tactics lore). Additionally, combat discipline supposedly aids deathly spears damage-wise. Aren't those reasons enough to take CD?

[Little Faith 24]

Combat Discipline only helps skills if you put them into a combo. Last time I checked you could not stuff T-Energy Shroud into a combo it being a buff and all.

 

Also regarding your tribulations Devout Guardian TG's are probably the most gimped characters at low levels. Stop caring about Deathly Spears, it'll become awesome in time but during all of Silver and most of Gold it'll hardly do a thing. Dedicated Blow will become a viable (actually very good) CA by the point it becomes "spammable". What are you supposed to do until then? Normal attack stuff, that's what you'll be doing. Hell, I rode a horse through most of Silver Thylysium with my Devout Guardian.

[wolfie2kX 528]

What Little Faith said is true. Dedicated Blow rocks the house especially at lower levels.

 

And for the record, if you've got Concentration early on in the game, it can be highly spammable and effective by say level 20 or so. More so if you have Regen per Hit socketed or worn somewhere.

[Aegis 256]

Combat Discipline helps any combat art regardless of whether you put it in a combo or not. Your damage will go up regardless, while the 10% or 20% regeneration reduction applies only when you place a combat art in a combo. So, yeah, CD does have its uses outside of combos.

 

Other than that, I very much agree with all other points otherwise. TGs in general are slow to get up and running unlike a seraphim or shadow warrior, but even then I wouldn't start to sweat it till you reach, at best, well late into gold. Until you reach those levels, you're not gonna see a whole lot of progression in a number of areas in your build's life. As also mentioned, DS in general takes a lot of time to get going whether you choose CD or not, so I wouldn't obsess over it. I would prioritize getting DB to spammable levels first before considering DS or BE. If I were doing this build, I would think little of CD, and be more concerned with defence like adding toughness, just in case things happen to my shield (things like debuffs, said shield runs out somehow, or I start in the wasteland before hitting the great machine where you have no buffs and everyone wants to hurt you all at once).

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

Thanks again. It's nice to know the board stilll has some active users!

Anyways, I heard that combat discipline affect combo skills, but also that you can put skills in combos by themselves for the cooldown and damage bonus. It could bolster DB, DS, and derogate on my shield. Seems like a good 10th skill.

Also, can anyone clarify for me--why exactly is a weapon skill so necessary? I feel like I could've gotten by without it so far if I just decided to use dedicated blow (I've been rocking battle extension). Does hafted weapons lore affect dedicated blow's accuracy or something?

Also as I said, at this point, when I "spam" dedicated blow, the cooldown for combat alert keeps increasing slightly. Maybe that problem isn't a real big problem and it'll go away.

[gogoblender 3,068]

Thanks again. It's nice to know the board stilll has some active users!

Yahoo, we're alive!

 

 

gogo

[ASleeplessWolf 2]

And aegis--sorry I did not see your post before I posted! Well you seem knowledgeable about this...

If you were me, would you take toughness over combat discipline? I already took concentration as my 8th skill. I COULD just run t-energy shroud and UNMODDED untouchable force and then be able to take both toughness and combat discipline... Would you do that? Or would you go for modding UF with source warden focus? I am just thinking that spears and derogate could become so awesome with both tactics lore and combat discipline... Keep in mind that modded untouchable force lowers enemies attack speed by 30 percent, allows 30% reflect projectiles, and gives 5% more chance to stun (15% total). I am mainly looking into it for the attack speed debuff and stun. I was hoping that could kind of make up for toughness' absence but maybe not... What do you think?

I am level 40-ish btw, keeping bargaining at level and mixing it up between armor lore, tactics lore, and devout guardian focus with the rest of my points. I shouldn't have put 20 points in enhanced perception so early, but live and learn. I am also using chance to find valuables gear (+50% total). I am starting to level willpower. Willpower does raise my shield on console right?

[Aegis 256]

Well, I don't know about knowledgeable, plus I'm still working on my own TG builds, so don't take it as gospel. Here's my thing. Other than tactics lore or an aspect lore, I am of the mentality of defence first, hence one reason for toughness over combat discipline, especially at mastery when it mitigates a lot of damage. Combat discipline I have personally found to be a skill that is good to have if you have the room for it after you put in all the necessary skills you need, as there are plenty of other ways to increase your damage and lower your regeneration. Seraphim is a particularly good example: thanks to battle stance, a duel wielding seraphim can already rip her opponents to shreds without the need for combat discipline. I've seen it, and still could not believe how fast bosses went down. So far, those builds which I have combat discipline, I pretty much left it there at about one to five points up to at least platinum because I found myself getting all the damage I needed up to that point.

 

There's also the fact that I don't like using combos save for the semi-buffs like combat alert (unless nodded into battle aura). Combos I find are hardly worth the effort especially given the number of times it doesn't fire off. I'd rather fire off a semi-buff and then spam my single damaging CA than throw together some kind of combination that may or may not work. Doesn't help that consoles get a bugged version of combat discipline.

 

Toughness in comparison is a skill I make it a point to apply to every character capable of using it given how much survivability it has added. My shadow warrior, for instance, can fight enemies who reflect attacks back at me, especially combat arts, and not be worried about getting killed by his own attacks. It's a passive skill that works really well.

 

UF is no replacement for toughness. Both do different things. UF is there in hopes of stalling your enemy from hitting you while doing tiny little damage. Toughness is there when those hits get through. Given almost everything can never reach the hundred percentile like chance to stun, I would not take my chances. And as I said, there are moments where you could be caught with your buffs off. That would be fighting enemies that debuff, or starting on a save point possibly full of monsters. Until you reactivate your buffs, toughness would be one of your backups. Personally, while I have had thoughts of running UF as a second buff, I've ultimately come to the conclusion that neither of my builds will bother with it. It helped me in the early going but otherwise I was never particularly fond of using it. That, however, is just me. So, concentration for you would be used mainly to reduce regeneration times. You do not have to be devoted to a second aspect just because of concentration.

 

As for choosing a weapon lore, you don't have to bring one to mastery or even put much points into it, but you should invest into one assuming your main method of attack is through your weapon, like yours. It gives you access to higher level weapons and raises your attack value and speed for said weapon. In the early difficulties like silver, it is no big deal not to have one. Later difficulties is another story, where lack of a weapon lore means you're slower, and probably will whiff more often, including against targets that are ten times your size. Tactics Lore may be the more crucial skill in your offence, but your melee loses something if you don't at least put a point in a sword lore or a hafted lore.

 

As for willpower raising shields on console, honestly I have no clue. If that is the case for PC, then I would assume it's the same for console.