Game Mechanics And Gameplay-Related Technical Questions

[SLD 523]

1 hour ago, Roderick said:

I think my brain refused the fact that cmp/EE shows % after all those iterations although it is a flat value. Oo I got it now. Sorry for being so dense. Calculations do work as you say. Thanks for the explaination (and your patience)!

Don't worry, you are still smarter than the cm patch team. After all the original game did show flat values for the weapon skills. You at least tried to figure out how the calculations worked, while the cm patch team obviously did not. But without even looking they were bold enough to edit in that "%" symbol
Ok, there were some mitigating circumstances... the "combat discipline" skill showed flat values originally and they fixed that to the actual "%" and while they were at it they saw the flat values on skills like "sword weapons" and thought... But they could have tested what we just did and chose not to. That just seems not very smart...
Well in the end it was a minor change and the cm patch certainly contains so many far more important changes that such tiny slip ups here and there could never ruin the whole.
They certainly deserve our
After all they "improved" what was originally created by an entire full time development studio...


oh and your idea that speedlore might be multiplicative is also not that far fetched because the description on the wiki page sounds like it is. Again some evil misleading info there.
Well I just went to the wiki and corrected that evil misleading info.
At least noone else will fall into that trap now.

[gogoblender 3,338]

3 hours ago, gogoblender said:

oooooh... soooo...what kind of build? Shadow Warrior?

gogo

Booyah...if that heart means yes, then hoping you'll post your *build forward* thread... Ric's Ranged Shadow Warrior has gotten me excited to look at S2's builds again (probably because its ranged and video ) , and SLD's going through a new EE BFG Build as well! 

 

 

gogo

 

 

 

[gogoblender 3,338]

2 hours ago, SLD said:

Well I just went to the wiki and corrected that evil misleading info.
 

Woot!

gogo

[SLD 523]

56 minutes ago, gogoblender said:

SLD's going through a new EE BFG Build as well!

no, that is a cm patch160 BFG Build. No EE there.

[gogoblender 3,338]

11 minutes ago, SLD said:

no, that is a cm patch160 BFG Build. No EE there.

ahhh, gotcha

gogo

[Roderick 61]

7 hours ago, SLD said:

oh and your idea that speedlore might be multiplicative is also not that far fetched because the description on the wiki page sounds like it is. Again some evil misleading info there.
Well I just went to the wiki and corrected that evil misleading info.
At least noone else will fall into that trap now.

I will test it with the next SW soon. It woulld be somewhat logical. One skill adds flat values, the other raises it percentuallly. Otherwise it would be two different skills with somewhat the same effect. 

6 hours ago, gogoblender said:

Booyah...if that heart means yes, then hoping you'll post your *build forward* thread... Ric's Ranged Shadow Warrior has gotten me excited to look at Sacred 2's builds again (probably because its ranged and video ) , and SLD's going through a new EE BFG Build as well! 

My lifelong goal is to reach level 200 without dying. If I would have a build with which I trust to achieve that, I would have posted it all around the internet. xD But at some point I am always dying. My record is around 150. Enemies are ~20 levels above my char and their attacks are ranging from "don't even feel that" to "Why is my SW lying on the ground, I didn't see that comming!". 
Since we are in a threat of game mechanics here, I'll throw in a thought: Combat Reflexes and Spell Resistance both are similar in the point, that they are reducing the anmies chance to crit. But they can't reduce it to zero. So in the end, you get hit by crits less often, but you WILL get hit by them and have to survive them. So for the sake of never dying, they are useless. What would you like more: Being used to drink a health potion when you got hit hard all the time... or not being used to and then you react to slowley when it occurs? Also you definitely have to have the HP to survive one or two crits for sure.
That's why  a second thought about Constituiton as skill. On level 75 it provides ~5000 HP and life reg during battle. Problem ist: The life reg thing is wrong. The moment you've got hit, life reg stops for a split second. So if you are getting hit often enough, no life is regenerating during a battle (like against bosses with damaging auras). The Grim Resilience of the SW with the first modification Fortify can provide much more hit points. So you might need Concentration to take it (if you use another buff) or Death Warrior Focus to get more levels of Grim Resilience. So it would be switching out Constitution for one of those, not saving you a skill slot, but getting "just" a bit more survivability. On the other hand, such a buff eats a bit of regeneration time, thus slowing your dps by having your attack CAs on a lower level/higher regeneration time.

This way I am having my "must have" skills, but switching around a lot of other skills just for the sake of a) getting durable enough but b) not laking dps. One test was just taking ALL defensive skills for becomming a absolut unit of a SW... but in the end he just didn't dish out enough damage and the levling in higher levels got a crawl I couldn't endure. xD

(Thus said, I probably died often enough due to being just unfocused, tired or too slow in my own reaction of drinking a potion...)

[SLD 523]

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Otherwise it would be two different skills with somewhat the same effect.

like aspect lore, combat discipline and ancient magic?

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

My lifelong goal is to reach level 200 without dying. If I would have a build with which I trust to achieve that, I would have posted it all around the internet. xD But at some point I am always dying. My record is around 150. Enemies are ~20 levels above my char and their attacks are ranging from "don't even feel that" to "Why is my SW lying on the ground, I didn't see that comming!". 

Why do you make characters that at such high a level(150) still take damage? And what kind of enemies are you fighting there? I mean reaching level 200 is enormously time consuming, but other than that not very challenging. Though I must admit, for me time consuming and boring was reason enough to never make it that far.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Since we are in a threat of game mechanics here, I'll throw in a thought: Combat Reflexes and Spell Resistance both are similar in the point, that they are reducing the anmies chance to crit.

that statement is already being contested by Eru here:
https://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/22121-dev-diablo-2-fallen-mod-for-sacred-2/page/43/#comment-7146393

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

But they can't reduce it to zero. So in the end, you get hit by crits less often, but you WILL get hit by them and have to survive them. So for the sake of never dying, they are useless.

I would agree on that. However critical damage isn't that much larger than the normal one.
Base game factor 1.2
I think EE raises it to 1.5
and in both cases it doesn't affect attribute based damage.
 

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

What would you like more: Being used to drink a health potion when you got hit hard all the time... or not being used to and then you react to slowley when it occurs? Also you definitely have to have the HP to survive one or two crits for sure.

I'd certainly prefer never to drink a health potion and survive a hundred crits...

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

The moment you've got hit, life reg stops for a split second. So if you are getting hit often enough, no life is regenerating during a battle (like against bosses with damaging auras).

I've heard that one before, but never encountered this problem. Would love to hear more about those scenarios. What bosses can do that, other occurences. What is "being hit often". Roughly how many times per second do you need to get hit there?

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

The Grim Resilience of the SW with the first modification Fortify can provide much more hit points. So you might need Concentration to take it (if you use another buff) or Death Warrior Focus to get more levels of Grim Resilience. So it would be switching out Constitution for one of those, not saving you a skill slot, but getting "just" a bit more survivability. On the other hand, such a buff eats a bit of regeneration time, thus slowing your dps by having your attack CAs on a lower level/higher regeneration time.

You intentionally leave out buffs to get better regen times? What the hell are you doing? And what combat arts would do measurably less dps with another buff/higher reg? You say you don't take death warrior focus that leaves two potentially reasonable combat arts: frenzied rampage and spectral hand. But the second is instant so it never has regen issues. So you are shooting with frenzied? That would be the only remaining scenario where that argument might make sense. In that case however you won't need much damage as you do so many hits per time that you can rely on %leech even against non bosses, right?

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

This way I am having my "must have" skills, but switching around a lot of other skills just for the sake of a) getting durable enough but b) not laking dps. One test was just taking ALL defensive skills for becomming a absolut unit of a SW... but in the end he just didn't dish out enough damage and the levling in higher levels got a crawl I couldn't endure. xD

hmm, what is the problem with a sw that takes all defensive skills? Assuming you leave out Pacifism as it does absolutely nothing outside pvp, that leaves 6 defensive skills. You want to be tanky so concentration with double focus for the buffs is a must, the last skill is tactics lore. You wear a shield to get shield lore's effect, equip a low level lightsaber... Should hit like a truck... what did you do wrong there? I mean taking all 6 defensive skills is nowhere near needed but it shouldn't hurt your dps much at all.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

(Thus said, I probably died often enough due to being just unfocused, tired or too slow in my own reaction of drinking a potion...)

I am always slow and tired, that's why I build around not needing potions. And don't go into dangerous encounters if I want to survive.
I think you're "unfocused" on your goal of hitting lvl 200 without dying

[Roderick 61]

1 hour ago, SLD said:

like aspect lore, combat discipline and ancient magic?

Yeah, like that. If you have one skill providing 200% damage and then take another one providing 100%, as long as they do just add up their numbers, you get 300%. A third one with 100% would add up to 400%. So overall, the second skill only boosts by 50%, the third one by 33% overall damage. I am always hesitating to do such combinations. Especially when the amount of skill slots is limited.

 

1 hour ago, SLD said:

Why do you make characters that at such high a level(150) still take damage? And what kind of enemies are you fighting there? I mean reaching level 200 is enormously time consuming, but other than that not very challenging. Though I must admit, for me time consuming and boring was reason enough to never make it that far.

Time is no problem. Sacred 2 has some unique features no other hack&slash has. I probably will play Sacred 2 until that piece of software can't be run anymore. In contrary to that, I don't like leveling slowly.... if that makes any sense. So my equipment has a lot of +%xp in it where it could have other helpfull stats. xD
Considering the damage and the deathes... I actually don't know. I particulary remember one beefy SW fighting in the orc territory. He didn't take damage until he just dropped dead. I know the orc champions do crit a lot so I just assume I am getting critted from several sources at the same time. Since orcs do only physical damage it couldn't have been a resistance issue like having the wrong reliques slotted. I do remember some deathes which where definitely due to player issues on my end.... like getting stunned in several Area of Effect which did massive fire damage and I forgot to slot in the fire reliques. Couldn't hit spacebar faster then the different Area of Effect triggered... xD 

 

1 hour ago, SLD said:

I'd certainly prefer never to drink a health potion and survive a hundred crits...

I would prefer that too. Never achieved that, though. 

1 hour ago, SLD said:

I've heard that one before, but never encountered this problem. Would love to hear more about those scenarios. What bosses can do that, other occurences. What is "being hit often". Roughly how many times per second do you need to get hit there?

Its a while ago since I tested it, so for exact values I would have to re-do hat. Everything I write now might be not quite correct.
On principle, you have a base hp regen per second. You can check that number in the menu. If you get hit, this number is just reduced to 0. I think after some seconds it is backup again. That is your "hitpoint regeneration out of combat" (as described in the wiki). You are basicly considered in combat if you get hit and need some seconds not getting hit to be "out of combat". Which isn't quite correct since YOU can shoot at your enemies with great delight and still regen hp, afaik.
Also, items with + hp regen I think will "work" in combat in terms of only your base hp regen gets set to 0. Like if you have 30 base regen and +2 via items, as soon as you got hit you still have 2 hp regen. Theoretically.
One SW had Constitution at mastery and unlocked "Increases Hitpoint Regeneration rate during combat by converting all your out-of-combat hitpoint regeneration into in-combat hitpoint regeneration.". In short, you base hp regen isn't set to 0 in combat. Additionally, Grim Resilience has a mod to increase hp regen. That SW had somewhat around 1k hp regen. Basicly invulerable even when taking a bath in a horde of goblins. But after some crits there was a hp loss.... which just didn't heal as long as he was fighting (meele, no life leech). As soon as he didn't get hit anymore, the hp regenerated. So I assume there is a splitsecond after getting hit, where the hp regen is newly calculated and only after that is done, the regen actually hits in. And that's happening after every hit?

I can re-do that if you want.... will just make a new SW with Grim Resilience and go gather some  enemies around and will see what happens.

1 hour ago, SLD said:

You intentionally leave out buffs to get better regen times? What the hell are you doing? And what combat arts would do measurably less dps with another buff/higher reg? You say you don't take death warrior focus that leaves two potentially reasonable combat arts: frenzied rampage and spectral hand. But the second is instant so it never has regen issues. So you are shooting with frenzied? That would be the only remaining scenario where that argument might make sense. In that case however you won't need much damage as you do so many hits per time that you can rely on %leech even against non bosses, right?

Isn't that principle how it works? I have a SW with three buffs. If they are active, Spectral Hand has regen time of almost a second. Without them it is 0.1 sec. Which doesn't matter since the execution time is longer than the regen time. xD But all CAs have higher values on higher levels, so if I would rely on Spectral hand, I could level it much more and still spam it if I hadn't those buffs. So I don't know what "measurably less dps" is in your eyes, for me it is just less dps and therefor a reason to consider when thinking about doing as much damage as possible. 
And I don't shoot. I play meele as it is the most fun for me in hack/slash games.

2 hours ago, SLD said:

hmm, what is the problem with a sw that takes all defensive skills? Assuming you leave out Pacifism as it does absolutely nothing outside pvp, that leaves 6 defensive skills. You want to be tanky so concentration with double focus for the buffs is a must, the last skill is tactics lore. You wear a shield to get shield lore's effect, equip a low level lightsaber... Should hit like a truck... what did you do wrong there? I mean taking all 6 defensive skills is nowhere near needed but it shouldn't hurt your dps much at all.

Well, for one a weapon lore is missing. Killing mobs 20 levels above my char makes them drop items 20 level above my char or even more in case of uniques or set items. Those weapons have higher damage numbers and I actually like to use them when I find them and not starring at them in my storage for 10 levels until I can wear them with a penalty to attack speed. A light saber afaik gets bonus damage from intelligence, which doesn't scale well with a SW f.e., so I don't really use them (and I don't like Star Wars...). Considering dps I admit I had runs where I didn't find anything with %life leech and having high level items of those in the storage won't help until you reach those levels... so I really look out for damage over time by weapon damage. So a weapon lore helps with attack speed, too. Then it comes to preferences, I guess? I like Enhanced Perception for the boost in magic find, so that needs slots. Combat Discipline reduces regen time by 20% on mastery, which can be huge help to further increase CA level for doing more damge.... additional to the damage boost that skill provides. Chance to hit is also something you either slot in your equipment or you want those slots for more xp gain and take something like Speed Lore.
All in all, that SW with all defensive skills at good levels was a slow slogfest. I don't know what you picture of "it shouldn't hurt your dps much at all" is, but a character with an all defensive build does dish out a lot less damage over time than an aggressivly build one. 

2 hours ago, SLD said:

And don't go into dangerous encounters if I want to survive.

Well THAT might be an issue... because I clear Ancaria of its enemies along the main quest, so there is no going around some bosses. 

[SLD 523]

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

So my equipment has a lot of +%xp in it where it could have other helpfull stats. xD

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

I do remember some deathes which where definitely due to player issues on my end

sounds more like all of them

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

I would prefer that too. Never achieved that, though. 

Didn't you say something about orc champions? The end part of my recently uploaded bfg sera video shows what or champions should look like and what threat they should pose...

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

So I assume there is a splitsecond after getting hit, where the hp regen is newly calculated and only after that is done, the regen actually hits in. And that's happening after every hit?

I can't speak for what the constitution mastery does here, but for item bonuses and the buff bonus you get that regen permanently, in combat or not. And having someone like Gahanka pummel a low level char you can see every hit takes your hp down but it also constantly regenerates, so you are unkillable. Your version would suggest that getting some kobolds to help gahanka would suddenly turn off your entire regen, or even more insane, you could leave gahanka out and still die. I can't believe that, as I rely on regen with many builds and never had such a problem occur. Now there might be a problem with constitution mastery, as that one is a bit different, but I wouldn't know as I never used that.
Btw. you do have a very small in combat regen without any bonus, not just an out of combat regen. Both are based on your maximum life afaik.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

I can re-do that if you want.... will just make a new SW with Grim Resilience and go gather some  enemies around and will see what happens.

Yes, please try reproducing this effect. Once regen turns off basically anything in the starting area should be able to kill you, but with a functioning leveled grim resilience almost nothing should(get the runes from sp start chest in the unsaved campaign).

 

 

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

But all CAs have higher values on higher levels, so if I would rely on Spectral hand, I could level it much more and still spam it if I hadn't those buffs

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

And I don't shoot. I play meele as it is the most fun for me in hack/slash games.

But melee has "regen per hit" to solve all regen problems. You can eat all 200 runes and still not get in trouble with both defensive buffs. The skeletons are useless and when you use the invisibility you don't need defense at all so there are no triple buff shadow warriors.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

So I don't know what "measurably less dps" is in your eyes, for me it is just less dps and therefor a reason to consider when thinking about doing as much damage as possible. 

Well, if you can oneshot an enemy more damage is not getting you anywhere further. Against bosses your actual damage doesn't matter much as %leech will be far more effective here. unless you really do sick amounts of damage. And for the champions in between you'd still need to reduce the number of hits needed to actually see a difference from increased damage.
Most of the damage bonus from attack CA's is in form of a normal +%damage bonus that gets watered down by tactics lore and gear etc. It does still do something but not that much. On top of that, the CAs scale really inefficiently beyond the penalty so wether you eat 100 frenzied rampage or 200 is only a tiny increase in effect, but a huge increase in regen time. Up to that point however the CA does still do quite a lot for your overall damage, so I agree with trying to keep regen times low. I just would never consider throwing a powerful buff away for that.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Well, for one a weapon lore is missing. Killing mobs 20 levels above my char makes them drop items 20 level above my char or even more in case of uniques or set items. Those weapons have higher damage numbers

That is some serious uderestimation of attribute damage. The low level weapon with high damage sockets will do a lot more damage and not require a weapon lore, which is why I suggested using that.
Here is a link to my recent guides:
https://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/72710-an-easy-character-for-a-returning-sacred-2-player/page/3/#comment-7146227
Part 1 is the relevant one for attribute damage.
No those were never really meant as a guide just some stuff I tried to help someone with who disappeared before I could write it all
 

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

A light saber afaik gets bonus damage from intelligence

No, Lightsabers in anything CM-patch and beyond(like your EE) are scaled by willpower of which you can have tons when using grim resilience. There is a guide on a Lightsaber SW in that link above as well
 

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

I don't like Star Wars

Well, I won't "force" you to play it
 

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Considering dps I admit I had runs where I didn't find anything with %life leech and having high level items of those in the storage won't help until you reach those levels.

no leech set?, no leech weapon? How about using the unlock code for tom felde's? I think I'ts in my SW guide...
Alternatively there's always a throwing star for the desperate. EE should have a unique one as a fixed quest reward.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

So a weapon lore helps with attack speed, too.

That one is correct. So that would be missing from the 6 defensive skills bs character.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

I like Enhanced Perception for the boost in magic find, so that needs slots.

I like that one as well, but I don't take 6 defensive skills with it

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Combat Discipline reduces regen time by 20% on mastery, which can be huge help to further increase CA level for doing more damge

So it will allow raising the combat art level by around 25%. If you are already in the penalty area, that will do nothing, if not it might do anything up to 25% more damage. On top it gives some %dmg increase as well. But you were playing melee so regen doesn't matter and in that case combat discipline is a really bad choice.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Chance to hit is also something you either slot in your equipment or you want those slots for more xp gain and take something like Speed Lore.

Now it is getting ridiculous. Speed Lore has no place in any build. Attack value is such a bad stat to scale. It does basically nothing compared to the other hitchance affecting modifiers.
And well, the xp gain stuff is a choice that makes characters weaker. Why use 6 defensive skills when you don't want a strong character. If you want to socket everything with +xp just make the invisible sw build... On second thought, that might not work in EE anymore, don't know.

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

All in all, that SW with all defensive skills at good levels was a slow slogfest. I don't know what you picture of "it shouldn't hurt your dps much at all" is, but a character with an all defensive build does dish out a lot less damage over time than an aggressivly build one. 

So far all we sacrificed was:
-combat discipline which is only the %bonus as regen doesn't matter on melee
-sword lore or dual wield, for the attack speed
-potential extra xp sockets...

Yes there is some damage lost, but I never claimed 6 defensive skills are a good idea. All I said was it should be doable, as my SWs usually have enough space for 3 or 4 green skills and picking yellow ones instead shouldn't make much of a difference. I usually would pick a weapon skill but no combat discipline so technically all my characters do "less damage" than yours. But on the other hand including attribute damage a normal lvl200+ weapon ends at like 1000 damage while my nice lvl 10 lightsaber might make it past 8000... depends on patch version again, but I think EE is a good one for my approach.
 

2 hours ago, Roderick said:

Well THAT might be an issue... because I clear Ancaria of its enemies along the main quest, so there is no going around some bosses. 

Yeah, I'm currently trying the campaign on my bfg sera. Platinum has already been reached and at least she'll never die of orc champions... But she's still in dire need of gear upgrades. From what I can tell, the campaign is not a good way to get to LVL 200 without deaths

So as a summary, you like to play a lot of Sacred 2 but not a lot of Sacred 2,
you are patient enough to play forever, but not without xp bonus,
you want to reach level 200 but do everything you can to not make that happen,
so you build your character for maximum dps and risk your life on campaign bosses.
That makes so much sense now

[Roderick 61]

1 hour ago, SLD said:

So as a summary, you like to play a lot of Sacred 2 but not a lot of Sacred 2,
you are patient enough to play forever, but not without xp bonus,
you want to reach level 200 but do everything you can to not make that happen,
so you build your character for maximum dps and risk your life on campaign bosses.
That makes so much sense now

First sentence is contradicting and therefor pretty useless.
I play with xp bonus to get more chars to high levels in the time I play Sacred 2.
Third sentence is a weird theory of yours. I wouldn't be here if that was true.
No, I don't build for that. I build for gaining levels and fighting the way through Ancaria as fast as possible without dying, which is quite the balancing. Especially if they should be able to beat bosses. What use would a char have when it couldn't fight the bosses? Looking pretty?
But I have a feeling we don't understand each other on anything of that. 

Edited October 15 by Roderick

[SLD 523]

3 hours ago, Roderick said:

What use would a char have when it couldn't fight the bosses? Looking pretty?

You can fight bosses, just not ones that are still dangerous. That's how I think of it.

3 hours ago, Roderick said:

First sentence is contradicting

It is all contradictory, that was the point.
You want to reach high level and build tanky to ensure that but on the other hand you want to trade tankiness for speed.

3 hours ago, Roderick said:

I build for gaining levels and fighting the way through Ancaria as fast as possible without dying, which is quite the balancing.

Well I guess that takes quite some skill. Skill I would never have, so that is something I can't give advice on. You're right about that. I build characters for their endgame goal, you build for the way there. Those are two very different things. You want to beat the game quickly, I want my character to beat the game for me. So our build goals are different. On the game mechanics side however I can only suggest you learn about all the mechanical ideas I use, so you can find out which of them might help in your playthroughs. Some of them are quite important, like the attribute damage.

3 hours ago, Roderick said:

But I have a feeling we don't understand each other on anything of that. 

Honestly I really would like to understand your approach, how you go through the game and how you deal with the games difficulties. I am certain, that from a gameplay perspective you are far better at this game than I am. I can't beat hard bosses, I just make them easy with build and gear.
I'd love to see a build guide from your perspective. What choices you make and why. I want to hear about all the things that get you through the game faster.
As I have learned from @xeyp the wise, understanding comes with time and effort.

[gogoblender 3,338]

11 hours ago, Roderick said:

 

My lifelong goal is to reach level 200 without dying.

Woo Hoo! Love the goal... I remember Slevein's builds... all 200's and in closed HC... are you actually trying to build a HC toon that has never died ... ooooor...something that doesnt die a lot..but still feels awesome to play with ?

Also ...wow there's a TON of posts that went up while I was sleeping!  lol you guys are sacred 2 fanastics! 

Roderick, how bout I split this topic and start it into your build forward topic?  This way we wont take this one supremely off topic. Got a topic title i can put in for you ?

I've been excited about playing lately and I've actually been looking at some of my old dusty builds... dang, that Dryad is looking good again...I just gotta ressurect Sacred 2 on comp and make a wish ( or a number) to see if it comes alive!

gogo

[xeyp 53]

@SLD if y'all are talking about hardcore leave me out, I want none if it. That being said I find no difference in building for leveling or end-goal, unless it's a very specific one. Only difference is when you pick something. Due to the Atk/def system Sacred as a series (I.e. 1&2) has a bit of a dumbing down of defense mechanics - complexity is lost due to the inherent superiority of stacking def over any other type of defense layer. Why mitigate, when you can avoid entirely, add to that a small amount of life leech and you're immortal. All of your other resources can be spent on damage, classes that have multipliers for defense (buffs etc) have an inherent advantage, though one must carefully balance flat and % increases. Now I'm mostly talking about my experience w/ S1, but I don't remember that system being any different in Sacred 2. 

So if the goal is to survive and do damage, I don't see how it varies between a 'leveling' and an 'end game' build whatever that is - just find any way to increase your def and dump the rest in Atk and dmg, please correct me if I'm wrong @SLD and @gogoblender .

The real fun is with self imposed challenges like doing a certain flavour of build where you can't use everything else it will break the fantasy of the class etc. and Sacred is kind enough to allow a lot of these builds to make it into the high difficulties, some better than others of course.

[SLD 523]

6 minutes ago, xeyp said:

Why mitigate, when you can avoid entirely,

You cannot really avoid in Sacred 2 and have a lot more ways for mitigation than in Sacred 1.

7 minutes ago, xeyp said:

stacking def over any other type of defense layer

will just get you oneshot by a spell.

7 minutes ago, xeyp said:

Now I'm mostly talking about my experience w/ S1, but I don't remember that system being any different in Sacred 2. 

Sacred 1 has no proper mitigation. There is nothing else to scale there than def rating, life and resists. In sacred 2 you have life, some have energy shields and flat mitigation, theres still armor and def but also dot reduction, mitigation, certain block, reflect and evade mechanics, high amounts of regeneration. And I'm sure I missed something in that list...

12 minutes ago, xeyp said:

So if the goal is to survive and do damage, I don't see how it varies between a 'leveling' and an 'end game' build whatever that is

The levelling build takes skills that are useful along the way but might become obsolete in the end.

14 minutes ago, xeyp said:

please correct me if I'm wrong

I hope I did. Even though only on a superficial level, for now.

15 minutes ago, xeyp said:

The real fun is with self imposed challenges

And now we have a third way of enjoying the game. Isn't that great

[gogoblender 3,338]

1 hour ago, xeyp said:

@SLD if y'all are talking about hardcore leave me out, I want none if it. That being said I find no difference in building for leveling or end-goal, unless it's a very specific one. Only difference is when you pick something. Due to the Atk/def system Sacred as a series (I.e. 1&2) has a bit of a dumbing down of defense mechanics - complexity is lost due to the inherent superiority of stacking def over any other type of defense layer. Why mitigate, when you can avoid entirely, add to that a small amount of life leech and you're immortal. All of your other resources can be spent on damage, classes that have multipliers for defense (buffs etc) have an inherent advantage, though one must carefully balance flat and % increases. Now I'm mostly talking about my experience w/ S1, but I don't remember that system being any different in Sacred 2. 

So if the goal is to survive and do damage, I don't see how it varies between a 'leveling' and an 'end game' build whatever that is - just find any way to increase your def and dump the rest in Atk and dmg, please correct me if I'm wrong @SLD and @gogoblender .

The real fun is with self imposed challenges like doing a certain flavour of build where you can't use everything else it will break the fantasy of the class etc. and Sacred is kind enough to allow a lot of these builds to make it into the high difficulties, some better than others of course.

Heya xeyp!
Yes! everyone plays for their own reason... as long as everyone gets along theres loads of room for gaming, 

embrace and let diversity shine!

I love what you said about *flair* I call them theme builds.... as long as its kill speed is good (unless im playing a supporting character... paaaaaaaaass :P)  I'm in for lovely new kit  

RE HC ... yaaaah..its kinda tricky ... well see what interest is like for this game at the end of the month.. if its still around we can discuss what most players want and find an Ancarian  panacea re servers

I remember friends in the old days using HC for 4 party pvp  vs 4 party groups...only up to level 5 or 10 I think? delightfull and ingenious. 

 

gogo

 

[xeyp 53]

I was glad to be corrected by @SLD, gives me all the more reason to look forward to booting Sacred 2, when I get to it somewhere next year. (Irl got real busy). Hope you're all well. 

For the other stuff keep me in the loop gogo, would love to know what the community is doing

 P.s. @SLD love the jumping pumpkin-o-cow.

[SLD 523]

4 minutes ago, xeyp said:

P.s. @SLD love the jumping pumpkin-o-cow.

It is a gift from Gogo and Schot. I love it as well

[Maneus 236]

To @SLD and @Roderick

Strength gives 0.8 Attack Value per point. The total is then rounded down.

Dexterity gives 0.3 Attack Value per point. The total is then rounded down.

The Seraphim (and only the Seraphim) receives additional Attack Value as explained here. This bonus appears to be unchanged in EE.

The Weapon Lore skills give a flat bonus to Attack Value. The skills, at least Sword Weapons, appear to be unchanged in EE. So Sword Weapons at level 1 will give +9 Attack Value.

Add together the above, plus any Attack Value +X item modifiers, to form the base attack value.

Speed Lore gives a percentage bonus to attack value. This percentage stacks additively with Attack Value +X% item modifiers. In EE the skill is modified to provide a larger bonus.

Original:

Spoiler

mgr.createSkill {
    skill_name = "skill_speed_lore",
    advance_level = 75,
    min_level = 1,
    mean_value = 150,
    advance_mean_value = 225,
    skillgroup = "SKG_ATTACK",
    adv_skill_name = "skill_speed_mastery",
}

EE version:

Spoiler

mgr.createSkill {
    skill_name = "skill_speed_lore",
    advance_level = 75,
    min_level = 1,
    mean_value = 250,
    advance_mean_value = 325,
    skillgroup = "SKG_ATTACK",
    adv_skill_name = "skill_speed_mastery",
}

So the values in the wiki will not be correct for EE.

Add the total percentage bonus to the base attack value to form the final attack value. The result is then rounded down.

I haven't explored other interactions, like attack value reduction from combat arts. But the above should be enough for now.

Also, the item modifier Attack Value +X% is subject to precision loss in the tooltips. So each individual item modifier could be 0.1% higher in practice. In the bonus overview, the Attack Value +X% item modifiers are summed up (using their actual values), but then the sum itself (as a whole) is subject to precision loss.

 

On 10/13/2024 at 8:46 PM, SLD said:

My BFG Sera as example:
289 str giving 231 AR
315 dex giving 94 AR
but her base says 398 which is somehow 398-325=74 too high. It's not her exact level but I'd guess she gets some base as per her creature values...

+AR% 58.4% from BFG gun
177.8% from BFG buff

179 ramged lore giving 259 AR

So expected would be

(398+259)*(1+1,778+0,584)=
657*3.362= 2208.834 ingame it says 2206 close enough

Ranged Weapons at skill level 179 (unmastered) should give you exactly 258 Attack Value.

The base Attack Value then becomes 656.

If you also increase the total percentage bonus by 0.1% or 0.2% (because of precision loss in the tooltips), then you will get exactly 2206 Attack Value.

I will need more information, like the character's level, the combat art level and more, for precise numbers.

 

For Roderick's cases... I'm not sure what is going on. The provided information seems unreliable. But it would be interesting to see if there is something else at play here. I hope he comes back and gives us more detailed cases.

Edited October 24 by Maneus

[SLD 523]

2 hours ago, Maneus said:

The Weapon Lore skills give a flat bonus to Attack Value. The skills, at least Sword Weapons, appear to be unchanged in EE. So Sword Weapons at level 1 will give +9 Attack Value.

2 hours ago, Maneus said:

Ranged Weapons at skill level 179 (unmastered) should give you exactly 258 Attack Value.

Hmm, interesting. It seems like the ingame tooltip besides the wrongful "%" also always(sometimes?) shows a value 1 higher than it should. At least in these 2 cases it does.

2 hours ago, Maneus said:

The base Attack Value then becomes 656.

If you also increase the total percentage bonus by 0.1% or 0.2% (because of precision loss in the tooltips), then you will get exactly 2206 Attack Value.

I will need more information, like the character's level, the combat art level and more, for precise numbers.

Thanks, I don't need the uber precision, most of my offset is explained by the 1 extra base attack value I calculated with. The nose is wide enough to adjust to some uncertainty
I'm just glad I basically did everything correctly.
 

3 hours ago, Maneus said:

For Roderick's cases... I'm not sure what is going on. The provided information seems unreliable. But it would be interesting to see if there is something else at play here.

I'm glad to hear that it wasn't my failure.

Thank you for all the detailed work. It's always nice to see you here Maneus

[Maneus 236]

18 hours ago, SLD said:

Hmm, interesting. It seems like the ingame tooltip besides the wrongful "%" also always(sometimes?) shows a value 1 higher than it should. At least in these 2 cases it does.

The tooltips show the correct values on my end (unmodded game). Maybe someone familiar with the mods (and the changes to the DLLs) can help. 

[gogoblender 3,338]

On 10/24/2024 at 3:56 PM, Maneus said:

To @SLD and @Roderick

Strength gives 0.8 Attack Value per point. The total is then rounded down.

Dexterity gives 0.3 Attack Value per point. The total is then rounded down.

The Seraphim (and only the Seraphim) receives additional Attack Value as explained here. This bonus appears to be unchanged in EE.

The Weapon Lore skills give a flat bonus to Attack Value. The skills, at least Sword Weapons, appear to be unchanged in EE. So Sword Weapons at level 1 will give +9 Attack Value.

Add together the above, plus any Attack Value +X item modifiers, to form the base attack value.

Speed Lore gives a percentage bonus to attack value. This percentage stacks additively with Attack Value +X% item modifiers. In EE the skill is modified to provide a larger bonus.

Original:

  Reveal hidden contents

mgr.createSkill {
    skill_name = "skill_speed_lore",
    advance_level = 75,
    min_level = 1,
    mean_value = 150,
    advance_mean_value = 225,
    skillgroup = "SKG_ATTACK",
    adv_skill_name = "skill_speed_mastery",
}

EE version:

  Reveal hidden contents

mgr.createSkill {
    skill_name = "skill_speed_lore",
    advance_level = 75,
    min_level = 1,
    mean_value = 250,
    advance_mean_value = 325,
    skillgroup = "SKG_ATTACK",
    adv_skill_name = "skill_speed_mastery",
}

So the values in the wiki will not be correct for EE.

Add the total percentage bonus to the base attack value to form the final attack value. The result is then rounded down.

I haven't explored other interactions, like attack value reduction from combat arts. But the above should be enough for now.

Also, the item modifier Attack Value +X% is subject to precision loss in the tooltips. So each individual item modifier could be 0.1% higher in practice. In the bonus overview, the Attack Value +X% item modifiers are summed up (using their actual values), but then the sum itself (as a whole) is subject to precision loss.

 

Ranged Weapons at skill level 179 (unmastered) should give you exactly 258 Attack Value.

The base Attack Value then becomes 656.

If you also increase the total percentage bonus by 0.1% or 0.2% (because of precision loss in the tooltips), then you will get exactly 2206 Attack Value.

I will need more information, like the character's level, the combat art level and more, for precise numbers.

 

For Roderick's cases... I'm not sure what is going on. The provided information seems unreliable. But it would be interesting to see if there is something else at play here. I hope he comes back and gives us more detailed cases.

Welcome back Maneus! 

gogo

[AlexGriffin 5]

Is there a way to see what my real skill levels are without having to take off all my gear?

[Maneus 236]

8 hours ago, AlexGriffin said:

Is there a way to see what my real skill levels are without having to take off all my gear?

Hello, AlexGriffin.

Unfortunately not.