Sacred 2 - Game Mechanics And Gameplay-Related Technical Questions

[Hooyaah 3,103]

42 minutes ago, Flix said:

Oh Lordy no.  That's way too complicated. But I appreciate your faith in me that I could pull off a miracle like that.  

What I'm suggesting is a way to perform a certain animation on demand.  The only non-essential, key-press animation I can think of is the SHIFT key.  So basically it's a way to force the character to assume a sitting posture wherever they may be situated.  It would be up to you (and the whims of chance) to find a suitable spot to "seat" oneself in a way that looked natural.

Ben, you have already pulled off (seemingly) endless Sacred 2 "miracles" and know you more about than the game and it's mechanics than anyone else working on it regularly, but for, perhaps, Dimitrius. I think that the Shift key would be okay, but then its other animation for defense would be lost. Is the Alt key used? There are some other unused/unassigned keys on a standard keyboard, aren't there? I do appreciate you considering this curious indulgence of mine. I think that it would be interesting. Besides, there is a nice place it could be used for a character to relax for a while. I'll post it in Funny/Interesting Sacred 2 Screenshots.

[ameaeth 54]

Hey friends!

I want to create a Spell Based Combat Art (SBCA) based DoT build and for that reason theory crafted with the help of good old wiki. A few things there confused me and I wanted to confirm with you all if I understand the below correctly.

Quote

Damage over Time (DoT)

Some percent of Combat Art's damage is inflicted upon a target for some time. Several DoT effects stack, so the target can be hit by different Damage Types at the same time, but as with Detrimental effects only one would be displayed. [SBCA based] DoT is not affected by target's armor [...]

Quote

Sacred 2:Damage over time: [Element]

This effect causes [Element] Damage over Time. It can be inflicted by the weapons and Combat Arts of opponents and the player. It is NOT caused by the Secondary Damage Effect of [Element] known as [Weaken, Freeze etc.].

Damage Lore skill mastery, Spell Resistance/Spell Intensity check and Willpower Attribute don't affect it.

Quote

Resistance

Damage Mitigation: {Element]+X%: modifier reduces DoT duration (as well as total damage: for example, if incoming DoT was to inflict [1]250 damage for 5 seconds it would be decreased by "Damage Mitigation:x +65%" to two seconds - 250 damage dealt by the first pulse and 187 damage a second later, summing up to 437 damage which is 35% of initial 1250). Modifier can stack with similar other without diminishing returns, so immunity can be achieved.

Spell Resistance skill mastery reduces the duration (as well as total damage).

Damage Over Time: Magic -X% reduces the duration (as well as total damage), modifier can stack with similar modifier without diminishing returns, so immunity can be achieved.

Okay so in summary for SBCA based DoT:

1. It ignores armor
2. It cannot be increased through Damage Lore (Is this confirmed? Wiki only mentions this for Magic and Ice DoT)
3. It does not account for Spell Resistance/Spell Intensity nor Willpower (Is this confirmed? Wiki only mentions this for Magic and Ice DoT)

 

In terms of Game Mechanics, any additional advice for maximized SBCA based DoT?

Cheers

[idbeholdME 436]

Gonna revive this as I have a Damage Lore question and the last ask here was also somewhat related to Damage Lore:

On 7/29/2021 at 2:11 PM, ameaeth said:

Okay so in summary for SBCA based DoT:

1. It ignores armor
2. It cannot be increased through Damage Lore (Is this confirmed? Wiki only mentions this for Magic and Ice DoT)
3. It does not account for Spell Resistance/Spell Intensity nor Willpower (Is this confirmed? Wiki only mentions this for Magic and Ice DoT)

In terms of Game Mechanics, any additional advice for maximized SBCA based DoT?

As far as I can tell:

1 -  is correct. Armor does not affect them in any way.

2 - Damage Lore only affects the 5 secondary damage effects, not innate spell DOTs.

3 - Also correct. The only way to mitigate damage over time from spells is damage mitigation, damage over time reduction, Spell Resistance Mastery and Recovery Potions. This is what makes spell DOTs one of the most dangerous things in Niobium at high levels. Enemies like Spitting Spiders and bosses, whose attacks often have built-in DOTs that scale massively with enemy level. The base damage of the spider's spit may be 1000, but it will then also tick 1500 poison on you every second for 5 seconds after that. Make that 5 spiders and you will melt insanely quick without any DOT damage reduction or a quick finger for spamming Recovery Potions.

 

And now for my Damage Lore related question:

For Wound, Burn and Poison, the effects are clear. Both the damage and duration of the effect will be increased at Damage Lore Mastery.

As far as Weaken and Freeze go, does DL Mastery only increase the duration of these or also the power of the effect (greater stat reduction/slow)?

Edited April 6, 2022 by idbeholdME

[Lindor 572]

Can we maybe merge these three topics?

Or would that be a bad idea?

Edited April 11, 2022 by Lindor

[gogoblender 3,406]

Its a good question.  

Wiki vs forums

The Wiki was created as a matter of structure...things dont get put into it or created for its unless a concept that wishes to be published. 

here in the forum, especially with many many thousands of posts, we find ourselves swimming in an ocean of posts, all in modding general with some sweeping out into other places.. as Im not a modder at heart im a loss to know where to keep what kind of modding posts where and which new groups or groupings to make ? Kind of like a Wiki but only comprised of posts

I especially noticed this a few weeks ago when looking at Modding... Modding has so many levels of expertise within it, beginners guides, damage types , game mechanics, behaviors adjustments, ...

Guess what Im saying is rather not than us put all like topics together  is there a way to bring groupings to all the topics general modding so that when someone looks down, they can perhaps see an index and then drill down quickly to knowledge they need? This worked very well when we brought all info from forums to the wiki years go and it got it organized, and now years later seems like we have same thing here at darkmatters again

tons of high end reference material that can get lost if its not given order. How to organize this huge body posted knowledge into easily and eve progressively read reading?

I can give some advice to a project of this magnitude but unfortunately im not a modder at heart and I would be missing that talent needed to make all the modding data here at DarkMatters become easier to find, read and use it to synthesize more data with

If i went rambling sorry, just first cup

 

gogo

[Lindor 572]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:57 PM, gogoblender said:

Its a good question.  

Wiki vs forums

The Wiki was created as a matter of structure...things dont get put into it or created for its unless a concept that wishes to be published. 

here in the forum, especially with many many thousands of posts, we find ourselves swimming in an ocean of posts, all in modding general with some sweeping out into other places.. as Im not a modder at heart im a loss to know where to keep what kind of modding posts where and which new groups or groupings to make ? Kind of like a Wiki but only comprised of posts

I especially noticed this a few weeks ago when looking at Modding... Modding has so many levels of expertise within it, beginners guides, damage types , game mechanics, behaviors adjustments, ...

Guess what Im saying is rather not than us put all like topics together  is there a way to bring groupings to all the topics general modding so that when someone looks down, they can perhaps see an index and then drill down quickly to knowledge they need? This worked very well when we brought all info from forums to the wiki years go and it got it organized, and now years later seems like we have same thing here at darkmatters again

tons of high end reference material that can get lost if its not given order. How to organize this huge body posted knowledge into easily and eve progressively read reading?

I can give some advice to a project of this magnitude but unfortunately im not a modder at heart and I would be missing that talent needed to make all the modding data here at DarkMatters become easier to find, read and use it to synthesize more data with

If I went rambling sorry, just first cup

 

gogo

Sounds like a terrific but potentially useful project being born. I have couple random thoughts I want to bring in:

 

The main issue I can see is that there are basicall two, how should I call it, 'dimensions' for sorting modding topics. There is the game perspective (Example: "This ingame FX looks cool, which are the images related to it?") and then there's the file perspective (Example: "This image looks interesting, which are the ingame FX related to it?"). For my shader project e.g. I'm trying to get an idea on the ingame effect the files have. But for the spark at the beginning of the Reverse Polarity casting FX, I'm trying to find the files related to the FX. This duality holds true for all files, not just graphics related stuff. Usually people join the modding community to change/improve something specific of the game, but they stay to improve their general modding abilities without having a specific vision in mind.

 

I'd like to have a Sacred 2 modding subforum just for lists, you know me 

 

Sometimes I wish there was something like "community posts". The same way members are able to edit wiki pages, give everyone who is trusted enough the ability to edit the FX list leading posts, e.g. Likewise with Tutorials and other lists / collections. This way posts with important information don't die if the original poster quits from Sacred 2 modding.

 

Sometimes discussions take place in the wrong thread. An example would be this discussion right here. The thing is that it started off related to the forum, but it moved in a different direction. I have experience with a forum where the moderator moves every post that goes slightly offtopic into the correct forum. I can say that it's neither a pleasurable experience for the posters, nor does it reduce confusion for later readers, actually it's more the opposite because things get torn out of context. Actually the more I think about it, merging the 3 topics might've been a bad idea. Also creating a secoind kind of topics with the rule from the beginning that getting offtopic is not allowed is not a good idea imho, it restricts ideas and is a hindrance to creativity. I'd rather have this discussion here take place in this thread rather than not having it take place at all.

 

Now that I think about it, as you said a forum is not a wiki. But most of the information about Sacred 2 is scattered across the forum. To me it looks not like a solvable problem. Actually I've thought about it when organizing files on my PC: How is our brain able to find and access all of it's information so quickly while at the same time there seem to be so many random thoughts and memories flying through our minds? I think it's an illusion, our brain actually prepares those informations before we even start to think about searching for them. Let's take an example, a bicycle ride together with friends and one friend asks you about your first bicycle accident, and you suddenly have all the memories as if it happened just a couple minutes ago. I think it's the environment, you pumping the bicycle wheels, testing if the helmet's still fitting etc. which made the brain relate to those memories and already prepare them. Following that thought, I think the 'best' way of organizing files / forums threads is having an AI analyze our search patterns and automatically group up threads which are often called together by the same persons. This is already happening across the world, and it's absolutely terrifying how good it's working even at the most basic level. Man, we're so insanely manipulatable beings.

[Flix 5,215]

It might be useful to look at forums for other games that have a modding scene. Grim Dawn forums divide up their modding sub-forums like so:

I find them pretty friendly to use and browse.  I particularly like the Tutorials being split up from the published Projects. I know where to go for what I need.

I'd be willing to spend some time moving around and organizing threads.

[ameaeth 54]

Question about quest reward mechanics.

Someone once told me that per region (elf, human, orc etc) the chance to get set item rewards from quests increases with the number of quests that have already been completed in that same region. Can someone of the game mechanic gurus here confirm or debunk this?

If this is true I'd assume the number of completed quests in a region is part of a formula rolling for rewards, do we now this calculation?

Edited November 15, 2022 by ameaeth

[idbeholdME 436]

On 11/15/2022 at 12:05 PM, ameaeth said:

Question about quest reward mechanics.

Someone once told me that per region (elf, human, orc etc) the chance to get set item rewards from quests increases with the number of quests that have already been completed in that same region. Can someone of the game mechanic gurus here confirm or debunk this?

If this is true I'd assume the number of completed quests in a region is part of a formula rolling for rewards, do we now this calculation?

No specifics known, but it works cumulatively and resets. There is no global chance increase depending on how many quests you completed in a region.

Say there is a 6% chance to get a set item on quest completion. Every time you do NOT get a set item after quest completion, add another 6%. Repeat until the chance triggers, at which point, reset the set item chance from quest to base.

It was the same in Sacred 1. The 6% chance is a guess. Higher star quests also have a better chance of dropping sets. I used to use this method in Sacred 1 to prepare multiple quests for turn in, make a save, turn them in, hoping for a set drop and reload if it wasn't what I was after. Doable in Sacred 2, but you have to manually backup the save file and restore it if you don't get what you want.

There is also a cap on the chance. Meaning that if you turn in 5 quests and don't get a set drop, the chance remains at ~30% until you eventually get a drop. At least there was a cap in S1, so I assume there is one in Sacred 2 too.

So the original statement was partially true. The chance increases (the region doesn't matter) after every completed quest, but it resets the chance every time you get a set item from a quest.

Edited November 17, 2022 by idbeholdME

[ameaeth 54]

Question on potion and alchemy materials usage.

Is it possible to activate multiple potions and/or alchemy materials so their effects will be active at the same time or is there always only one effects that may be active and using other potions/materials would replace any prior active effect?

[chattius 2,696]

Multiple is possible and so useful:

attack speed, hit chance, physical armour,... and then just take a weapon with x%life leech

[Shinryuu 23]

Hey guys, good to see stuff is still (somewhat) active here. These are the things I've always wanted to know, and a lot changed from vanilla to Ice & Blood (I still remember bargaining would let you buy set items, haha!). All this is for Ice & Blood, not CM or vanilla, I'm familiar with a few changes.

Chance to reflect Melee/Ranged works on the initial hit? In fact this really goes for all the "Enemy -%". For some reason, I used to remember these things "debuffing" the enemy (like -def, -attack) but would not actually increase hit rate or some such unless you first managed to land a hit. Some of the wiki info, however, suggests this is not the case although it isn't explicitly clear. Say someone has -50% Enemy Chance to reflect, and the enemy has 100% reflect, would that basicly mean 50% chance of no reflection, or it wouldn't work?

Let's say you get 100% block (Shield mastery + Kira's wall or something), does this mean complete immunity to close combat/ranged? Do things like "chance enemy cannot evade attacks" work on this? The formula on the wiki clearly states that block chance is reduced by enemy chance to evade attacks, but does this also apply when block chance is 100%? Like, 30% of 0% is... 0%. Or does this work differently? I assume no other modifier works for getting past block (even non-100%?).

So far this was all theoretical, since I'm not aware of any enemy with reflect or 100% block, but this specifically applies to the White Griffon. If you have Chance to Reflect Combat Arts, will this prevent the lightning attack from debuffing? Some limited tests with a TG suggest it does, but the issue is higher level buffs might also be more resistant to debuff taking effect. What about Garanthropod and it's Reflect Combat Arts? Would, say, Black curse/Archimedes modded for debuff always work or get reflected a good amount of the time?

What about enemy warding absorption -%? That would work on gar colossus/guardians and basicly go directly to HP?

I'm asking this mostly because of curiousity, but also because I've had Vitality/Armor Lore/Toughness/Spell Resistance mastery characters get 1-shotted by stuff like Banshee, so I'm kinda interested in what's actually going on. I tend to avoid the exotic stuff without massive full channel damage mitigation and high block/reflect, but some (especially Banshee, I think?) might be really easy leveling if you can do it without dying.

[idbeholdME 436]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:34 PM, Shinryuu said:

Hey guys, good to see stuff is still (somewhat) active here. These are the things I've always wanted to know, and a lot changed from vanilla to Ice & Blood (I still remember bargaining would let you buy set items, haha!). All this is for Ice & Blood, not CM or vanilla, I'm familiar with a few changes.

If you are talking about Opponent's Defense/Attack value -X%, then yes, it applies a debuff on the enemy when you hit them with a weapon. So a hit is necessary.

 

As for reflect reduction, it causes a relative decrease to the chance an enemy has. There are very few enemies in the game that can reflect attacks and it's mostly limited to melee. For example Elite turtles have a buff that reflects or all the Ice creatures in the Seraphim expansion area have a small chance. For example, if an enemy has 40% chance to reflect and you have opponent's chance to reflect melee damage -75%, then the enemy would be left with 10% chance to reflect. The usefulness of this bonus is mostly limited to PVP, because player characters can reach quite high chances of reflect. It is not really necessary when playing the game normally.

 

As for block, you have separate chances to block melee, ranged and spells, same as reflect. If you reach 100%, then yes, you become immunte to that type of attack. Shield Mastery gives only melee block, so you probably won't reach 100% in ranged and spells. Chance opponents cannot evade only lowers chance to evade, which is a speparate check. It has no effect on block. So even if an enemy had 100%, you'd still be able to block/reflect those attacks. Keep in mind there are some attacks that can't be blocked/reflected at all, mostly ground attacks, like Dragon Breath, traps and DoTs.

Regarding your Griffon question, yes. If you succesfully reflect/block the spell, it won't remove your buffs. Same for Elite Furies in Northland.

Garganthropod, I'm actually not sure but I don't think I've ever seen him reflect debuffs back on me, only damaging spells. The buff removal mods only remove permanent buffs, not temporary ones. Garg's reflect is temporary, so Annul or Dispel have no effect on it.

Enemy warding absorbtion - X% reduces the ratio which the enemy shield absorbs, effectively increasing the damage that goes to HP instead of shields. Useless in single player, only a couple bosses have shields and they're tiny compared to their HP pools so you will still always break the shield first.

And finally Banshee, she hits extremely fast and extremely hard in melee (several times a second). One of the more dangerous bosses to be honest. If you think she is bad, try Poison Lord in Niobium 

Edited October 18, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Shinryuu 23]

Thank you so much. I've read plenty of your older posts and there was a lot of info there too.

Most of my extreme caution comes from losing a niob char once (level 160+). This was many patches ago, but I still tend to be really boring until my char is nearly invincible. Other (less traumatizing) lessons include getting a level 60 or so 1-shot by the werewolf boss thanks to it's rage damage buff, and just melting when fighting the banshee on an unlucky day.

The niob char at level 160 died due to what could only have been a reflected CA, at least that's what I think these days. When it happened I just felt cheated as I was not aware of enemies reflecting CAs. I've had many issues other times with garganthropod not doing anything special but suddenly losing nearly all HP out of nowhere. I'm assuming all those situations were simply getting a CA reflected, rather than some super rare attack that does that much damage. Since I rather recently learned he has a buff that reflects CA's/Ranged... So I'm just wondering,what other tricks are there that might lead to unexpected and immediate death? Luckily the game files show everything, since looking at those I know where to watch out. Just wasn't aware of the particular mechanics surrounding -enemy reflect, chance enemies can't avoid, etc.

Anyway, it seems 100% block is clearly better as there is no chance of enemies getting through the reflect or perhaps some bosses having -Chance to reflect. Kira's wall has mondo "Block projectiles", I think if you slot it with the right jewelry you can easily go above 100%. Still, it's probably not worth it (well... it ain't that hard to bargain +all skills/+block Projectiles...) since projectiles are probably the least common and dangerous attacks out there.

I've also been careful to make sure stuff like Combat Alert and Paralyzing Dread aren't dispelled, as I've never had it happen but always assumed it to be possible.

What exactly do the elite turtles reflect? I assume it's CC? Never had any issues with turtles. Most melee chars go to orc cave so not too much experience with those and turtles. Whereas trying to sometimes smack them with a source warden leads to way more misses than I would imagine from hit-rate, but since he hits like a pansy compared to his HP/Defense it hasn't caused any damage I would notice when in brain-dead grindmode.

I think it's this: enemy_shield_spikeshield

        entry0 = {"et_duration_boost", 500, 5, 0, 8 },
        entry1 = {"et_friendfactor", 500, 0, 0, 8 },
        entry2 = {"et_chance_reflect_CC", 295, 5, 0, 41 },
        entry3 = {"et_chance_reflect_missile", 295, 5, 0, 41 },
        entry4 = {"et_range_area", 1500, 0, 0, 4 },

So CC/Ranged. Seems it also gives reflect to allies? Interesting, unless this isn't the turtle buff. Big range too.

Finally there's the issue of the wiki being wrong on many cases, or perhaps it's my version (IB 2.65)? Like, it says that the burning mod on Furious Emblazer is built-in DoT, but both the game files and my experience tell me it's simply an increase in burn chance. I've found all the Built-in DoT mods, but none of them are fire-typed (Poison/Magic/Ice/Phys only afaik).

[idbeholdME 436]

On 10/19/2023 at 2:24 PM, Shinryuu said:

Thank you so much. I've read plenty of your older posts and there was a lot of info there too.

Most of my extreme caution comes from losing a niob char once (level 160+). This was many patches ago, but I still tend to be really boring until my char is nearly invincible. Other (less traumatizing) lessons include getting a level 60 or so 1-shot by the werewolf boss thanks to it's rage damage buff, and just melting when fighting the banshee on an unlucky day.

The niob char at level 160 died due to what could only have been a reflected CA, at least that's what I think these days. When it happened I just felt cheated as I was not aware of enemies reflecting CAs. I've had many issues other times with garganthropod not doing anything special but suddenly losing nearly all HP out of nowhere. I'm assuming all those situations were simply getting a CA reflected, rather than some super rare attack that does that much damage. Since I rather recently learned he has a buff that reflects CA's/Ranged... So I'm just wondering,what other tricks are there that might lead to unexpected and immediate death? Luckily the game files show everything, since looking at those I know where to watch out. Just wasn't aware of the particular mechanics surrounding -enemy reflect, chance enemies can't avoid, etc.

Anyway, it seems 100% block is clearly better as there is no chance of enemies getting through the reflect or perhaps some bosses having -Chance to reflect. Kira's wall has mondo "Block projectiles", I think if you slot it with the right jewelry you can easily go above 100%. Still, it's probably not worth it (well... it ain't that hard to bargain +all skills/+block Projectiles...) since projectiles are probably the least common and dangerous attacks out there.

I've also been careful to make sure stuff like Combat Alert and Paralyzing Dread aren't dispelled, as I've never had it happen but always assumed it to be possible.

What exactly do the elite turtles reflect? I assume it's CC? Never had any issues with turtles. Most melee chars go to orc cave so not too much experience with those and turtles. Whereas trying to sometimes smack them with a source warden leads to way more misses than I would imagine from hit-rate, but since he hits like a pansy compared to his HP/Defense it hasn't caused any damage I would notice when in brain-dead grindmode.

I think it's this: enemy_shield_spikeshield

        entry0 = {"et_duration_boost", 500, 5, 0, 8 },
        entry1 = {"et_friendfactor", 500, 0, 0, 8 },
        entry2 = {"et_chance_reflect_CC", 295, 5, 0, 41 },
        entry3 = {"et_chance_reflect_missile", 295, 5, 0, 41 },
        entry4 = {"et_range_area", 1500, 0, 0, 4 },

So CC/Ranged. Seems it also gives reflect to allies? Interesting, unless this isn't the turtle buff. Big range too.

Finally there's the issue of the wiki being wrong on many cases, or perhaps it's my version (IB 2.65)? Like, it says that the burning mod on Furious Emblazer is built-in DoT, but both the game files and my experience tell me it's simply an increase in burn chance. I've found all the Built-in DoT mods, but none of them are fire-typed (Poison/Magic/Ice/Phys only afaik).

The reflected damage from enemies in general is quite low in Ice & Blood. Although I did nearly kill my character on the ice creatures in the Seraphim expansion area. Was hitting extremely hard with a polearm and was chunking myself repeatedly for like 15-20% of my HP. But reaching the amount of damage to one shot yourself seems impossible (maybe if you really neglect your HP pool).

In general, enemies with the rage buff can be quite dangerous, especially when near death. Pay extreme attention when fighting the Elite Harbinger of Death at the end of the Crypt quest chain in Blood Forest. Might be the hardest hitting enemy in the game.

Garganthropod has an extremely huge attribute debuff on one of his attacks that doubles in power every 10 levels. It's when he throws sand and pebbles at you. If you get hit by it, It reduces all your attributes by 80%+ on higher levels in Niobium. His tail attack also inflicts a severe poison DoT. If he hit you with the debuff and then immediately with the tail, it can do way more damage than you would expect due to your lowered HP pool because you lose almost all HP that Vitality provides.

As for very dangerous hidden mechanics - Small Red Dragons and Elite Ranged Temple Guardians have Ancient Magic at Mastery level. Meaning they massively reduce any damage mitigation you might have and can chunk you hard even if you have 100%+ damage mitigation.

Regarding block, all sources of it stack multiplicatively. Same for reflect. Meaning you will never reach 100%. The only reason block close combat is possible is because the bonus from Shield Mastery is the only source that stacks additively with the block chance you already have.

As for temporary buffs like Combat Alert or Dashing Alacrity, the only thing in the game that can cancel those is Expulse Magic. And only very few select enemies have it (mummy boss in Swamp and a mini-boss in Seraphim expansion area). Otherwise, only the permanent buffs are cancellable.

Turtles do indeed have a chance to reflect all weapon attacks. Safe to attack them with spells though. But again, the reflected damage is not that dangerous (I think it used to be much higher before Ice & Blood). But it might interfere if you rely on regen per hit and such. Some enemies also have an innate chance to reflect.

And lastly, built-in DoTs seem to be documented correctly here: https://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php/Sacred_2:Damage_over_Time

The first section lists CAs with built-in DoTs. The 2nd section is a mix of mods that provide either a built-in DoT or an increased chance for a regular DoT/secondary effect (those can happen even without picking the mod). Regular DoTs are subject to Willpower and Damage Lore (except Wound effects). If you want a list of CA mods that actually provide a built-in DoT, those would be:

Baneful Smite - Electrocute

Gust of Wind - Poison Mist

Clustering Maelstrom - Gash

Dislodged Spirit - Torture

Eruptive Desecration - Plague

Edited October 21, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Shinryuu 23]

You are correct about the DoT's listed, It does kind of clearly state all percentages are secondary damage effect chance increase, but I always assumed that list to be a comprehensive "Built-in DoT" list. A bit confusing how all the effects are mixed in 1 list, considering how different built-in DoT is. I wouldn't have expected mods like Greek Fire to actually show up in that list.

I read your other post on enemies with notable passives, so I already am keeping an eye on those. Never had any issue apart from when I was running the campaign that I was kind of surprised at how hard those dragon fireballs were hitting, but generally the hits are slow and predicted so not easy to die if you pay attention. The Elite TG traps are things I always avoided like the plague, simply because traps hurt like hell on all levels. Thanks for the elite harbinger of death, I'll be careful there as I am planning to run the I&B questline for experience in niob, maybe even plat.

The attribute debuff and DoT has never been an issue on the scorp I'm pretty sure, considering I've never fought it with anything less than like -80% DoT and DME. He basicly does no damage except for the hard hit, I generally pump damage like crazy for fast leveling. Works perfectly fine if normal enemies can't damage you due to block/reflect, but is a bit of an issue when you get massive damage reflected. I still don't know for sure, but the issue only happened very rarely and as far as I know he loves to do his tail poison attack as well as kicking up a sandstorm, and those never caused issues. Just a rare random occurance of sudden death or damage spikes that maybe happens once every 10 fights or so.

I really want to farm the great machine now for uniques, but not sure if risking my blacksmith is such a good idea. Also don't want to get nuked by traps while porting in. My computer being way too unstable is also one of the reasons I need to be able to take quite a beating before venturing out.

Edit:

Also I've been meaning to ask this before, but in your "top-experience spots" post, you mentioned the mentor potion extending statue buffs +100% experience, On 2.65 IB I've tried this many times, and it does not work. They stack, which is weird since I thought one effect would replace the other. So it works like get statue, +100% experience, get Mentor Potion, still +100% experience, but when the statue runs out I still get +50% experience for the remainder of the mentor potion. Very odd as normally wearing gear with +experience would simply not have the statue work at all. Not sure what version you use, but unfortunately I'm stuck with getting over +100% experience at minimum ASAP. Also, sounds odd, but running Orpheus can give some pretty impressive experience if you got huge Area of Effect. It's not as great as wiping out 30 mobs with a statue buff, but I can do it faster and get decent quest experience. Good for when you still rely on statues/potions.

Finally about stacking mods, are you sure that stacking an amulet with say +10% Block Projectiles into a shield with +90% Block projectiles doesn't simply get added? Maybe I haven't gone high enough, but with -aspect regen I've found a gold slot -10% regen to get translated exactly to -11.5% when socketing, unlike wearing the amulet and gear piece separately, where you quickly lose like 4-5%.

% to kill undead does stack with potions directly, btw. Never have skellies been a pain since I decided to equip +10% banish undead as the potion pushes it to 100% and they never get back up while the potion is running. In Plat/Niob you need +15% I think but by that time it's easy to get that.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Shinryuu

[idbeholdME 436]

3 hours ago, Shinryuu said:

Edit:

Also I've been meaning to ask this before, but in your "top-experience spots" post, you mentioned the mentor potion extending statue buffs +100% experience, On 2.65 IB I've tried this many times, and it does not work. They stack, which is weird since I thought one effect would replace the other. So it works like get statue, +100% experience, get Mentor Potion, still +100% experience, but when the statue runs out I still get +50% experience for the remainder of the mentor potion. Very odd as normally wearing gear with +experience would simply not have the statue work at all. Not sure what version you use, but unfortunately I'm stuck with getting over +100% experience at minimum ASAP. Also, sounds odd, but running Orpheus can give some pretty impressive experience if you got huge Area of Effect. It's not as great as wiping out 30 mobs with a statue buff, but I can do it faster and get decent quest experience. Good for when you still rely on statues/potions.

Finally about stacking mods, are you sure that stacking an amulet with say +10% Block Projectiles into a shield with +90% Block projectiles doesn't simply get added? Maybe I haven't gone high enough, but with -aspect regen I've found a gold slot -10% regen to get translated exactly to -11.5% when socketing, unlike wearing the amulet and gear piece separately, where you quickly lose like 4-5%.

% to kill undead does stack with potions directly, btw. Never have skellies been a pain since I decided to equip +10% banish undead as the potion pushes it to 100% and they never get back up while the potion is running. In Plat/Niob you need +15% I think but by that time it's easy to get that.

I'm playing with the PFP, but the statue prolongation was possible even in vanilla Sacred 2, IIRC. Use statue and then drink mentor potion before it expires. You should be getting +100% until the potion runs out and can be maintained indefinitely as long as the potion effect stays on. All the community patches/mods also fix a bug where sources of extra XP did not stack and only the highest would work (so extra XP mods on CAs were useless) if you had even a single piece of gear with extra XP). If you are wearing gear with extra XP, it's possible that is what's interfering.

If you are playing the game in vanilla, then it's not your PC at fault in regards to stability, but the game itself. The unpatched game is highly unstable and if you're using Elite Textures, will usually crash within minutes.

As for stacking mods, yes. It will show up with full value on the bonus screen, but sources of the same bonus that are in % stack multiplicatively. Same for reflect, block, detrimental effect reduction etc. Otherwise, it would be somewhat easy to get -100% regen to an aspect. Again, the only exception is melee block from Shield Mastery, which is why the skill is actually pretty relevant, when Mastered.

Most of the % bonuses work this way. With no bonus, it's 1000/1000 meaning no bonus. Any bonuses add to the 2nd number. All the percentages you see are in reality a flat number, that is added to the 2nd number in that formula. But the game always shows a % equal to if the base formula was still 1000/1000 and doesn't account for existing sources. Example:

You have a gear piece with 20% regen bonus to an aspect. That in reality means, the regen time now gets multiplied by 1000/1250, which is 0.8. Now you add another 20%. It changes the formula to 1000/1500, because the 20% still equals 250 for the 2nd number. So now you get 1000/1500. Which is not 0.6, but 0.66. A lot of the game's math is this simple formula at its core (regen times, % bonuses etc.) This means that a single very high bonus will be much more effective than many smaller ones. 60% for example makes the formula 1000/2500. But if you stack 3x20%, that makes it 1000/1000+(3x250), resulting in 42.86% reduction in regen time instead of 60% in case of a single bonus.

In your example, stacking a 90% with a 10% would result in this:

1000/10000 for the 90% bonus (equals 0.1). Then if you added 10% to that, you would get 1000/10111, which would move the 0.1 to 0.0989. So basically nothing.

Even when socketing the same bonus into an item that already has it, you will get a much lower gain. Socketing a 20% chance to evade into an item that already has 50% evade will not result in 70% chance to evade. That is actually a spot where the game shows you the correct math.

The purple potions, it's possible they're additive. Never tested that as I find the potion alone sufficient most of the time

Edited October 21, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Shinryuu 23]

Ok... I read the "regen times mechanics" (It was done by a Russian modder I think, also on this forum). This showed that regen formula follows like Base Cost *0.25 (Stamina mod) * 0.66 (if you have -34% regen from say, concentration) * 0.66 (Expert touch), etc etc. Buff modifiers, -% item, etc all is calculated like this. This is incorrect? Because the 1000/1000 method is how I think Sacred 2 worked (Didn't S1 work exactly like that?) hence why I never put much value on concentration except for extra buffs. However, after testing I found that picking concentration as last skill and reaching like -43% regen due to +all skills nearly halved my regen times. I can understand if items (even if socketed) are applied layer-wise. but skills and other mods do seem to work differently (Whereas in sacred 1 it seemed 1000 regen simply reduced regens to 10% or so).

Edit:

Ok wait it could work that way? So -100% regen even on a single item is fun and all, but merely reduces regen times by -91%? Cause 1000/1430 = 0.7 so... could be correct? I thought it was more but can't double-check now. Well I can take off items and put them back on and see if the math works like that.

Just checked. No mount, no buffs. Took off the 1 -regen item I had.

1100+- Regen (obviously can't see more)

undressed:

2100+- Regen

Skills: Focus + concentration was at 65.9% and 45.4%. undressed they were at 51.4% and 19.4%

So 2100 / 1000/1807 = 3794+-

1100 / 1000/2412 = 2653+-.

So this ends up with a totally different base cost. The cost we are looking for is 600 + (300*9) = 3300 (level 9 radiant pillar, no +CA, only runes read), although it should be higher due to stamina.

looking at 2100 / 0.486 / 0.806 = 5361

1100 / 0.341 / 0.546 = 5908

They don't add uo due to armor, hard to find exactly but it went from roughly 85% to 100% undressed so 5908 * 0.85 = 5022. The percentage should be 5361 / 5908 = 91%. The bar definitely shows near to 85%. But 2653 / 3794 = 70%. That's much further off. Plus the cost is lower than base cost, it's impossible. Also, the bar is divided into 25% groups, and regen is above 75% mark. I've tried looking for a tooltip showing the exact value of armor penalty, but couldn't find it.

So maybe my math is totally off? Or I misinterpreted what you meant? You meant only items are layered like this? (Including amulets)?

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Shinryuu

[idbeholdME 436]

1 hour ago, Shinryuu said:

So maybe my math is totally off? Or I misinterpreted what you meant? You meant only items are layered like this? (Including amulets)?

 

Only items I think, yes. Skills are applied independently and do exactly as stated. Focus at 80%, concentration at 50% and 20% from Combat Discipline Mastery will result in a 92% reduction. Then the rest is further reduced by bonuses from items as I described above. Armor modifier comes in last and multiplies the result. Same for buff penalties.

Edited October 22, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Shinryuu 23]

Ah only items. So even if you get 100 it's just 91% decrease. Awww, too bad. Wish it could at least go to like 99.95% hahaha.

[Shinryuu 23]

Probably asking too much here already, but I've been shopping a bit too much and I think I'm losing my mind.

Is there any idea on how the merchants generate items? On 3 separate occasions have I bought an item, and then a bit later the same item (quality, most properties, appearance) appears again. This is quite good as on all those occasions I was able to immediately upgrade the item I bought. Like I went from 0 sockets, double all element mitigation armor (and some crappy mods) to 2 sockets, double all element mitigation armor. I don't want to waste money but I can always grind more and buying near-perfect items to get a chance at a better one would be nice... but I guess it could just be randomness.

Also, do shoulders ever spawn with all element damage mitigation without Armor lore Mastery? I want to get double mitigation like on armor, but I've only gotten the armor lore mastery mitigation property on shoulders, and only physical mitigation seems to spawn. Got some double phys mitigation/single for rest mitigation shoulders since I don't think it's possible. Tried looking at blueprint for this info but it would take me a bit too much time and someone smarter probably already figured it all out.

Edit: Forgot to ask this, does bargaining continue to scale after unlocking quality 12 items? As in more higher quality items? Just wondering if it's worth getting even more bargaining items despite my bargaining being high enough to unlock top quality.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Shinryuu

[idbeholdME 436]

16 hours ago, Shinryuu said:

Probably asking too much here already, but I've been shopping a bit too much and I think I'm losing my mind.

Is there any idea on how the merchants generate items? On 3 separate occasions have I bought an item, and then a bit later the same item (quality, most properties, appearance) appears again. This is quite good as on all those occasions I was able to immediately upgrade the item I bought. Like I went from 0 sockets, double all element mitigation armor (and some crappy mods) to 2 sockets, double all element mitigation armor. I don't want to waste money but I can always grind more and buying near-perfect items to get a chance at a better one would be nice... but I guess it could just be randomness.

Also, do shoulders ever spawn with all element damage mitigation without Armor lore Mastery? I want to get double mitigation like on armor, but I've only gotten the armor lore mastery mitigation property on shoulders, and only physical mitigation seems to spawn. Got some double phys mitigation/single for rest mitigation shoulders since I don't think it's possible. Tried looking at blueprint for this info but it would take me a bit too much time and someone smarter probably already figured it all out.

Edit: Forgot to ask this, does bargaining continue to scale after unlocking quality 12 items? As in more higher quality items? Just wondering if it's worth getting even more bargaining items despite my bargaining being high enough to unlock top quality.

Your observations seem correct. I only ever saw double full mitigation on chest armor. Can't check the blueprints, but it's safe to assume shoulders can't have both full mitigation bonuses.

Although, it is possible for jewelry to spawn with double + All Skills. So maybe it could potentially roll the same bonus twice? But I am not that knowledgeable about the internal workings of bonus spawning on items, so can't tell why that is possible on jewelry. Also got jewelry with double Stamina rolls or a couple other bonuses. Jewelry seems somewhat buggy in general. Many times, rare pieces drop with only a single bonus, including uniques. Other items seem to work normally though, so probably a quirk of just jewelry.

As for bargaining, from observation, I think it does increase the probability of that tier showing up more if you overkill it. You can maintain access to 12 until about level 120-130, then the requirements become too high. At the highest levels, 10 is the max you can get to. Luckily, +All Skills is in the rarity tier 10, so you can always shop for it.

The merchants do seem to use some sort of seed to generate items. I also shopped numerous time for near exact +All Skills jewelry. Once got 3 Amulets with +All Skills and basically the same + Stamina in a single session over many, many reloads.

Edited October 25, 2023 by idbeholdME

[Shinryuu 23]

I think the issue is that either shoulder don't spawn multi element (the non-Armor mastery kind) OR that once they hit around level 72, the multi-element bonus gets replaced by the armor mastery one. I could've sworn I saw the non-armor mastery full element mitigation on lower level shoulders many times before, but I could be wrong... In case it is possible on shoulders, I haven't seen ANY in shopping for like 40+ hours total at level 75. I was shopping with 180+ bargaining minimum so def hitting the top quality. Now it's 230. Good to know it doesn't get any better than the double slotted stuff I got already, so only TG/SE/DR/DW shoulders left... But getting double mitigation armor for all classes will be an even bigger pain lol. Well... probably fine with skipping HE/DR and going with a ton of armor there.

 

[Shinryuu 23]

Alright... so plenty of shopping later, I have not seen Dryad shoulders with armor mastery DM, same for Inquisitor armor. I was interested to figure out if it even spawns on any, and on which types. Got quite a bit of info out of the blueprint.txt. Unfortunately, I can't find where the random items are defined as to what they can have, or I'm doing something wrong. I already quadruple checked.

Armor mastery DM appears from level 70, needs item quality 5 and Gold minimum difficulty. Cool to know.Normal DM appears at level 15, bronze and needs item quality 11. Already knew this. Nice to confirm.

The code for armory mastery DM seems to be 551. It appears in bonus groups 753 (all on it's own) and 191/195/199/200/205. 753 appears for Gruma's Talisman and the unique SW belt. The others are unused. Which tells me that the script for random item generation is in another file. But which? Anyone know?

I checked all script text files in my game folder, but none of them have what I'm looking for, I'm guessing it's somewhere hidden in a wall of text and probably missed it. This is extremely frustrating as I have it pretty much figured out but run into the "I'm sorry Mario, but the script you are looking for is in another file"-wall.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Shinryuu

[Flix 5,215]

Quote

It appears in bonus groups ... 191/195/199/200/205.

...

The others are unused. Which tells me that the script for random item generation is in another file. But which? Anyone know?

The file you're looking for is scripts/shared/typification.txt.  This file is how basic skill-unlockable bonuses are assigned to items. Not by blueprint, but by their itemtype classification.

For example you can see that 191 is assigned to any items with the classification "CLF_SHOULDER".

Hope that helps.