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Enemy Resistances impact?


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We were getting offtopic so I rather created a new topic for this question.

3 hours ago, SupremeJoker said:
4 hours ago, Lindor said:

At first I was like:
VUT? Sometimes I wonder whether the OLKs play a different game than me. It was the same thing with enemy resistances, they found that it doesn't matter but in my game it has a huge impact and now they found that trading doesn't change prices but on my game it does?. :huh:

what do you mean ? let me give an example : if you are 216 with 95% survival bonus ,the dragon will have 234 level,the only thing that will help against him(I am talking for every sacred version:reborn.veteran,vanilla etc...)is poison ressitence (specially veteran mode ,were all the bosses have huge poison damage)the other's won t matter ,another thing ,the ressitences help against fire dragon for example ,yeah that's true ,but not against mele damage,you can have 1k ressistence or 1kkk doesn't matter,the dragon will hit with 17659 dmg per hit ,doesnt matter how much ressitence you have,I believe that's what Overlooker's said ,not just that,I ve tested this things myself,you can try it out yourself too and you will see.

I wasn't talking about hero character resistances, but about enemy resistances. This is a question that seems to occur frequently.

On 12/9/2020 at 11:39 AM, MetaL said:
On 11/28/2020 at 11:53 PM, Lindor said:

in Vanilla, physical damage also becomes less and less significant over time

No. In vanilla players may not care about enemy resistances 99% of the time. For most fighters best damage is physical, because it's easier to get than other damage types. Exception is only Dark Elf and in some cases Daemon.

 

On 12/5/2021 at 1:38 PM, SupremeJoker said:
On 12/4/2021 at 8:56 PM, idbeholdME said:
On 12/1/2021 at 7:59 PM, SupremeJoker said:

One more think,since you re playing vanilla sacred ,right? the damage type doesnt matter so much ,in the original version you can go full psyhical with no problem ,doesnt matter what char you play or what style ,since the ressitence are not so great on vanilla (reason I like to play reborn mode ) 

I am, although I have to say that even in Silver, it is noticeable when an enemy has high physical resistance. It definitely cuts down on the damage output. My hard hit currently hits for about 25K, but dragons take maybe half of that. Same for enemies. When I was fighting the Ice Elves for example, I definitely noticed my lack of Magical Resistance while I shrug off Physical hits like nothing.

beside poison ressitence(which helps you to stay alive,not getting slowed etc...)the others doesnt matter in sacred,I am an end game player,I play just niobium ,I ve tested multiple times,not just me ,the guys from overlookers clan too,doesnt matter how much ressitence you have,for eg in niobium at lv 216 the mele attacks from dragons  will deal around 17659 dmg per hit,it doesnt matter you have 10k resistence or 100k,so to escape their devastating blows,so you won t get one shot,you need hp ,at end game ,to ressit a region bosses you need at least 100k hp (and life leach to sustain the dmg you take from enemies),as for the ressintence you see at dragons and enemis,at end game if you socket just with Dragon slayer ring and great ring of concentration (eg for dwarf,vampire,gladiator etc....)you will nearly one shot every dragon ,in some cases like dwarf,the dmg will be so high you might reset dragons life :D (when I mean one shot ,I mean using the combat arts,like hard hit for eg,not simple attacks).

I created testing gear with an editor to settle this once and for all. It took me all my free time today, but I created gear for a seraphim that gives her only survivability boni and two weapons that deal exactly the same amount of damage every time, but on different damage types (Magical and Poison). The only thing influencing the damage is the natural gain of charisma / mental regeneration, but it's not a high difference there, especially compared to all the boni for all damage types.

Then I went for some enemies with different resistances and took screenshots of the damage. These are the test results:

Hero Stats:

Spoiler

DIyjw6H.jpeg

Magic Damage (D'Cay has not much Magic Resistance):

Spoiler

wX9QhjP.jpeg

Poison Damage (D'Cay has lots of Poison Resistance):
(in this picture you can also see D'Cays resistances)

Spoiler

UlKOStr.jpeg

My Findings are that enemy resistances have a huge impact. The conclusion would be that either the OLKs play a different game than me or there's something else going on which influences the testing results that I'm not aware of.

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Playing vanilla at the moment and the enemy resistances play a MASSIVE role. Playing a physical/fire Gladiator (about a 60/40 split), the area where Sirithcam is was especially painful as most enemies there take extremely reduced physical and fire damage. Fire trolls in particular are extremely durable compared to anything else in the game. Sirithcam also has main resistances Physical and Fire, which are my main damage types and killing him in Niob was a major pain, Hard Hit with about 270K listed damage hitting him anywhere between 10-40K, depending on crits. So enemy resistances definitely DO matter.

As for player resistance, I am not entirely sure there, but I think they do matter, at least for normal enemies. Bosses still chunk me extremely hard (about 11K HP when the dragons are in the 165-170 territory) even though I have 6.5K+ physical resistance at level 135. And if the trend continues, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 17659 damage at the level cap.

Edited by idbeholdME
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1 hour ago, Lindor said:

I wasn't talking about hero character resistances, but about enemy resistances. This is a question that seems to occur frequently

sorry I missunderstood it ,yeah it s true ,in the endgame ,enemy ressitences doesnt matter,if you know to build properly your hero you can easy one shot everything with a physical build ,sry for missunderstanding ! :D

Edited by SupremeJoker
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/8/2022 at 11:05 PM, SupremeJoker said:

sorry I missunderstood it ,yeah it s true ,in the endgame ,enemy ressitences doesnt matter,if you know to build properly your hero you can easy one shot everything with a physical build ,sry for missunderstanding ! :D

Coming back to this, mainly to ask, whether the level difference between a character and an enemy plays a role in the damage calculation. Because I'm at level 155, my Hard Hit has 464K-595K (260K-312K Physical, 147K-200K Fire, 44K-68K Magical, 12K-14K Poison) listed damage and a non-critical hit on a Hell Golem Warrior on Niobium deals about 10% of that listed damage(38-52K). The HGW is level 189 and has 22 327 combined resist, Physical and Magic being the greatest.

Also, a non-critical hit on a a Champion Shadow Guard at level 191 with 22 612 (high physical, medium fire and poison, no magical) resistance hits for over 100K regularly. Why do these 2 enemies take so drastically different amounts of damage when they have nearly the same resists?

According to some explanations of how resistance and damage works in this game, 22K resistance against hundreds of thousands of damage should have little effect. How is it possible that a HGW only takes 10% of the listed damage? Level difference is the only thing I can think of but if that was the case, the Shadow Guard would also take drastically reduced damage. Honestly makes no sense.

Even if it was just the minimum physical damage portion of the Hard Hit damage (260K Physical) and we also assume that the HGW just had 23K Physical resist, according to this: 

The resulting damage should be reduced by about 9%.

260K/(260K/283K) = 0,919

So even just the physical portion should be doing about 239K damage. Can anyone explain this?

Edited by idbeholdME
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well ,depends of what gear you have ,if you are 155,that means you play niobium ,so from what I know you will need a niobium gear,close to your level,not just that ,depdens very much on how you socket your gear,not just the shield or weapon,armor too 

Here is an example from Metal (member of overlooker's clan) ,dont forget his build is for veteran ,so for normal game ,vanilla ,maybe you just need 50% of what he have there 

 

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3 hours ago, SupremeJoker said:

well ,depends of what gear you have ,if you are 155,that means you play niobium ,so from what I know you will need a niobium gear,close to your level,not just that ,depdens very much on how you socket your gear,not just the shield or weapon,armor too 

Here is an example from Metal (member of overlooker's clan) ,dont forget his build is for veteran ,so for normal game ,vanilla ,maybe you just need 50% of what he have there 

 

I'm not really well versed with mods as I've been playing pure vanilla, so not really sure what to take out of that vid.

I'll continue levelling and check back once my hard hit has about a million listed damage. My gear is definitely far from optimized (especially the weapon), but it still seems weird that a HGW takes barely 10% out of my listed damage.

Also, a level 186 Cerebropod with 18.6K total resistance takes even less than a HGW. About 23K or so, meaning about 5% of my listed damage (464K-595K) on a non-critical hit. There must be some other factor at play besides damage vs resistance.

Edited by idbeholdME
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let's say Veteran mod is a vanilla upgrade(every monster have great ressitence and dmg)so as I say ,that build work more than perfectly on Vanilla sacred,in some casse's as you see ,the dmg is so high it's gonna turn negattive and heal the boss (in berserk mode ) ,hope I helped

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19 minutes ago, SupremeJoker said:

let's say Veteran mod is a vanilla upgrade(every monster have great ressitence and dmg)so as I say ,that build work more than perfectly on Vanilla sacred,in some casse's as you see ,the dmg is so high it's gonna turn negattive and heal the boss (in berserk mode ) ,hope I helped

I can see that in the vid, but from what I'm seeing in my game, (enemies taking 90-95% less damage than they are supposed to), that state doesn't seem achievable in an unmodded game. I will continue levelling and monitor how it progresses. Just dinged 156.

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9 minutes ago, SupremeJoker said:

(in berserk mode )

FYI if he says Berserk he means WIDD. I don't know where that comes from, most people use WIDD as abbreviation. But I find it nice, brings some variety :). It's a very fun playstyle, SupremeJoker has more than one video about that. I think Schot and gogoblender were the originaly ones who discovered the WIDD-Pain-synergy. I think the highest single hit attack is a high-level Dark Elf's Bottomless Pit. Combine it with high damage boni and WIDD and you will see the negative Damage bug SupremeJoker is talking about.

Cerbropods are hard enemies, best way to fight them is constant damage sources. Icons + Fadalmars, Icons + Orla-Aislings (if you're brave enough and trust your pc to handle it lol), Burning Bones Set Bonus (from Byleth's Fervent Furor or Huron's Assassination), and buffs like RBoL or Dagger Stare. Also Spell Resistance helps but the bonus is capped or at least has a significant fall off, doesn't matter if you have 100, 1000 or 10000.
Another possibility is building a character which doesn't use any combat arts, a pure leftclicker. It is possible, but it is not easy to figure out how and requires some knowledge.

 

As for your original question, it is good to see this kind of ingame reverse engineering, if it is true what you say then yes there must be something else going on. The OLKs made some bosses immune against some damage types. Maybe there is some hardcoded percentage based channel damage reduction for some enemies or even each enemy and they simply increased it to 1, would be an explanation. I know there are people around here who know a lot about the games code, maybe someone knows better. :lindor:

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2 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

I can see that in the vid, but from what I'm seeing in my game, (enemies taking 90-95% less damage than they are supposed to), that state doesn't seem achievable in an unmodded game. I will continue levelling and monitor how it progresses. Just dinged 156.

in the near future I will make a build and video to show you ,what are you curently playing ? so I can make that hero to show you what I mean

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On 1/26/2022 at 7:16 PM, SupremeJoker said:

in the near future I will make a build and video to show you ,what are you curently playing ? so I can make that hero to show you what I mean

Thanks for the vid. I'm playing a Gladiator. My gear is far from optimal and I am far from the listed damage in the video (currently sitting at about half a million listed damage), but I was just surprised by the huge difference between listed damage and the actual damage dealt.

Videos like these are cool to watch, but it has to be said that 99.5% of the players, if not more, will never reach that point. Hell, I'm at level 160 with 67% bonus XP from kill and levelling has been slowing down quite a bit anyway. I also don't really dupe items, so I won't ever have 8 copies of the same ring available without playing for thousands of hours :P. I don't know if the vastly reduced amount of damage enemies are taking is due to resistances or something else, but it has to have a reason. If it is because of the resistances, than the statement should be "resistances don't matter in the hyper-uber, perfect gear lategame" and not a genereal statement.

On 1/26/2022 at 4:59 PM, Lindor said:

FYI if he says Berserk he means WIDD. I don't know where that comes from, most people use WIDD as abbreviation. But I find it nice, brings some variety :). It's a very fun playstyle, SupremeJoker has more than one video about that. I think Schot and gogoblender were the originaly ones who discovered the WIDD-Pain-synergy. I think the highest single hit attack is a high-level Dark Elf's Bottomless Pit. Combine it with high damage boni and WIDD and you will see the negative Damage bug SupremeJoker is talking about.

Cerbropods are hard enemies, best way to fight them is constant damage sources. Icons + Fadalmars, Icons + Orla-Aislings (if you're brave enough and trust your pc to handle it lol), Burning Bones Set Bonus (from Byleth's Fervent Furor or Huron's Assassination), and buffs like RBoL or Dagger Stare. Also Spell Resistance helps but the bonus is capped or at least has a significant fall off, doesn't matter if you have 100, 1000 or 10000.
Another possibility is building a character which doesn't use any combat arts, a pure leftclicker. It is possible, but it is not easy to figure out how and requires some knowledge.

 

As for your original question, it is good to see this kind of ingame reverse engineering, if it is true what you say then yes there must be something else going on. The OLKs made some bosses immune against some damage types. Maybe there is some hardcoded percentage based channel damage reduction for some enemies or even each enemy and they simply increased it to 1, would be an explanation. I know there are people around here who know a lot about the games code, maybe someone knows better. :lindor:

Yeah, I'm not really looking into the berserk playstyle.

About Cerebropods, I've tried running around with some spell resistance and it did nothing. Even now, I'm running around with 44 (31%) SR and every time a Cerebropod hits me before I land with Stomping Jump, it means a couple of seconds of kiting 100% of the time.

And yes. It almost seems like different enemies have some inherent % damage reduction stat or something that does not show in the resistances. As I said, a Shadow Guard in Valley of Tears takes over 100K on the regular. HGW takes around 40K, Cerebropod about 20K. One of the variants of the Shadow Guard (Fervent) takes even slightly less damage than a HGW, while other Shadow Guards take 100K+. All enemies with similar-ish resistances, yet taking wildly different amounts of damage. I am still fighting enemies 30+ levels above my character level. Will se what happens once I get within the normal Survival Bonus range (18-20).

 

And one last thing on a different note. There seems to be a death failsafe. Every so often, I can get Cerebropoded and immobilized by a Shadow Guard. Enemies swarm me, bring my HP to 0, but I still live for a couple of seconds. I have a "stun" effect above my character and can still drink potions/retreat to safety. If enemies bring my HP to 0 again shortly after that, then I die. It was the same with Anducar. His spikes pretty much one shot me when I was there on Silver, but could kill him thanks to this mechanic. How does it work exactly?

Edited by idbeholdME
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36 minutes ago, idbeholdME said:

I have a "stun" effect above my character and can still drink potions/retreat to safety. If enemies bring my HP to 0 again shortly after that, then I die. It was the same with Anducar. His spikes pretty much one shot me when I was there on Silver, but could kill him thanks to this mechanic. How does it work exactly?

This depends on your Survival Bonus. The higher your survival bonus, the more often you can get "killed" without actually dying.

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18 minutes ago, Lindor said:

This depends on your Survival Bonus. The higher your survival bonus, the more often you can get "killed" without actually dying.

Interesting. I'm currently sitting at 95% and any unforeseen incidents so far have been saved by this. It helps that the enemies stop attacking you as long as the effect remains above your head. So the higher the SB, the less of a cooldown it has? Or is it just a higher chance?

Edited by idbeholdME
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I'm don't know actually. I always thought it's a fixed number per gamesession, dependend on the SB you have on load-in. But I'm not sure, it's just a guess. What I do know is it depends on the SB.

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22 hours ago, idbeholdME said:

Thanks for the vid. I'm playing a Gladiator. My gear is far from optimal and I am far from the listed damage in the video (currently sitting at about half a million listed damage), but I was just surprised by the huge difference between listed damage and the actual damage dealt.

Videos like these are cool to watch, but it has to be said that 99.5% of the players, if not more, will never reach that point. Hell, I'm at level 160 with 67% bonus XP from kill and levelling has been slowing down quite a bit anyway. I also don't really dupe items, so I won't ever have 8 copies of the same ring available without playing for thousands of hours :P. I don't know if the vastly reduced amount of damage enemies are taking is due to resistances or something else, but it has to have a reason. If it is because of the resistances, than the statement should be "resistances don't matter in the hyper-uber, perfect gear lategame" and not a genereal statement.

The reason I've switch to veteran mode ,back in the day and today I play reborn ,for the experience,in reborn mode ,with prepared gear and 4 players on ,it takes like 1:30-2 hours to reach from 1-216,also I didint farm all that rings ,I've farm like 4 and after that I just multiply them with save\load glitch ,I did the same for every ring or amulet ,but now adays I dont do that anymore,I've just made banks with rings,runes,items,etc...When I need something ,I just drag the Hero.pax into a folder take what I need and close it ,if I need something I again ,I just drag the old hero ,not the current one ,with proper knowledge ,it s not that hard to reach peak at sacred,the single problem can be ,the yellow items ,it depends on everyone luck ,for example I've farm 1 year and half for a good cobra blade for my dark elf,while a friend of my mine get the luck to drop it the first 10 hours of gaming at level 216,depdens on how much you wanna play the game and how far you wanna get,I m hardcore player ,hope I helped you !

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@SupremeJokerI wonder: did you ever manage to build a Seraphim who only uses heavenly magic? I mean these combat arts:

rXiJoTw.jpeg

It's the only build that I can't get to work, I always end up using BFG or standard weapon. But I never managed a pure heavenly magic spellcaster seraphim to survive hell's ridge or valley of tears in niob, lvl216. She either dies too quickly or doesn't do enough damage.

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17 minutes ago, Lindor said:

@SupremeJokerI wonder: did you ever manage to build a Seraphim who only uses heavenly magic? I mean these combat arts:

rXiJoTw.jpeg

It's the only build that I can't get to work, I always end up using BFG or standard weapon. But I never managed a pure heavenly magic spellcaster seraphim to survive hell's ridge or valley of tears in niob, lvl216. She either dies too quickly or doesn't do enough damage.

well I have something similar,my hybrid seraphim ,but it s for Reborn mod,not normal sacred,but if you wish ,I can try some test's to see how to get it on Vanilla sacred

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50 minutes ago, SupremeJoker said:

I can try some test's to see how to get it on Vanilla sacred

How kind, that would be very cool, thank you:D

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12 minutes ago, Lindor said:

How kind, that would be very cool, thank you:D

okay I will make one in one of these days,would you mind if I dont edit it ? I believe you will understand what I will show without edit 

EDIT:it will take more time if I have to edit it ,because of the render time and things...

Edited by SupremeJoker
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16 minutes ago, SupremeJoker said:

okay I will make one in one of these days

Very nice, thanks again!:)

17 minutes ago, SupremeJoker said:

would you mind if I dont edit it ? I believe you will understand what I will show without edit 

yes I think I will understand what you show without edit

15 minutes ago, SupremeJoker said:

it will take more time if I have to edit it ,because of the render time and things...

Take your time, I'm not in a hurry and I'm not going away:D

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@Lindor,tonight I've tested the build and I realise the reason why back in the day the Magician seraphim didint work,as you can see the spells,traps and everything beside combat arts have a limitation on Sacred Vanilla ,what I mean by this is that doest matter the level of the art ,the max dmg will be around 60k,after that the dmg will reset ,so you can have a celestial light at lv 200 with 60k and you think if you get it 255 will be higher ,but wrong ,maybe at 255 the dmg will be around 20k(this problem im talking about here for example have been solved in reborn mod).So I've tried anyway to see if it works ,everything works fine against (D,cay ,Anducar and forest god ,even if you dont one shot ,you can beat them pretty easy ,like 1 minute or so),but when I got to Valley of tears ,the problems start,because of the dmg limitation and green golems,cerebropod and others creature's from underworld ,having strong magic ressist,I couldn't do anything ,you see if the dmg didint have a limitation,that wouldn't be a problem ,with proper gear ,you will get the spell dmg so high their ressistence wouldn't matter,but having dmg limitation and monster's with high magic ressitence,result in a failure ,that's the reason most of the hardcore player's for Sacred Vanilla are playing with combat art's,the combat art's dont have dmg value ,it has multiplier's (I hope I said it right ) ,what I mean if you have 100k magic dmg with attack that dmg will be multiplied like 3000% ,no limit ,so from my point of view ,Caster\magician Seraphim is not good in Vanilla ,im sorry if you didnt know this ,but this is the sad true and the ressult from my search and test for the build.

 

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11 hours ago, SupremeJoker said:

,what I mean by this is that doest matter the level of the art ,the max dmg will be around 60k,after that the dmg will reset ,so you can have a celestial light at lv 200 with 60k and you think if you get it 255 will be higher ,but wrong ,maybe at 255 the dmg will be around 20k(this problem im talking about here for example have been solved in reborn mod).

I did not know that, thx for the information, that is sad news :/

11 hours ago, SupremeJoker said:

everything works fine against (D,cay ,Anducar and forest god ,even if you dont one shot ,you can beat them pretty easy ,like 1 minute or so),but when I got to Valley of tears ,the problems start

Yes I've made the same experience.

11 hours ago, SupremeJoker said:

because of the dmg limitation and green golems,cerebropod and others creature's from underworld ,having strong magic ressist,I couldn't do anything ,you see if the dmg didint have a limitation,that wouldn't be a problem ,with proper gear ,you will get the spell dmg so high their ressistence wouldn't matter,but having dmg limitation and monster's with high magic ressitence,result in a failure

Yes!

This explains why enemy resistances have so drastically different impacts on our damage, it depends on our playstyle! When talking about Spells, Enemy Resistances DO mean a lot. But on weapon damage based combat arts it's insignificant because you can always get to very high damage.

11 hours ago, SupremeJoker said:

the spells,traps and everything beside combat arts

Traps too? In my playthroughs the dark elf traps had astronomically high damage?

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1 hour ago, Lindor said:

Traps too? In my playthroughs the dark elf traps had astronomically high damage?

yes they have,but even the traps have the same limitation,the difference is that they have more dmg type on Art,like poison mist (physical and poison = 120k dmg at best )the same work for every other trap,but most of the seraphim spells have just magic dmg .

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Almost all Abilities have a damage limit of 65535 (2 bytes) for each damage type. After this limit, damage is no longer taken into account!

Only the traps of the Dark Elf do not have this bug!

It is important to understand that 65535 is not the final damage, but the damage of the Ability, so it will still be increased by global damage multipliers

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