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Sacred Underworld - Is this the best Character level : Trade level ratio? How to Replicate and My Experience


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Hello everyone, long time Forum Stalker here - finally making my first post, which hopefully is in the right section.

There are Three and a half questions and a bit of a guide/experience in this post:
- (the half question) Does going over the 1:1 Character level to Trade level benefit us
    (it's only half a question because there was definitely a difference between going from 1:5 to 1:20 and further, but there's the possibility that I might just we looking to confirm my beliefs?)
- (Question 1) Is the Ratio of Character Level to Trading Level important (I.e. Relative difference) -or- is it the just the Absolute number of levels that the skill goes to after reaching a 1:1 ratio with the Character's lvl.
- (Question 2) I wonder if there's something that I might've missed in order to bring the ratio even higher? I'm also assuming the skills have a cap at 255, however, reading Wolfe's Lair section on Max Levels - there's an asterisk that states: *Even if you exceed the value shown in skill point screen you will still see the effects of additional points awarded through items in the actual stats that the skill effects
- (Question 3) Does Trading actually benefit from going over 255 and how much so?

For people that are not interested in the Context a Guide of Replication and my Experience, but rather want to compare notes and answer the question posed by the thread - here's the final ratio:

Spoiler

    1:33* - as in Level 1 Trader with +32 To All Skills.
    *Theoretically it could be 1:34 if you could find a 4 socket, single handed sword with +1 To All Skills, but that would be extremely rare.

Here's a picture:
spacer.png

A bit of context

As it happens every summer, I get an urge to install and dive into Ancaria once more, but time and time again as I start getting to
the end of Gold I find myself with less and less time, so I have to delete the game (don't worry I keep my characters in a big, well-named folder structure)
until the next Summer comes. As much as I love the characters that I've built, every time I install the game I always get the urge to start fresh - this time was no different.
Of course every start requires a proper setup.

The Setup and how to Replicate it

(I group the characters I play in two categories - one is Solo Self Found-like, where I don't pick up Trading and I don't mule equipment to them - and the other either 
 pick up Trading or I just build a dedicated Traded to equip them whenever the need arises - this discussion is centered around starting one such trader from scratch and 
 realizing that I this might be the best ratio of Character level to Trading Level (I seem to remember that the higher it goes, the better).

Of course, we're talking about a level 1 Dwarf that has had some money (around 2,000,000 to be safe) muled to them and another character has completed the Bravemart Delivery quest in a 
Local Multiplayer / Cooperative Game, and has saved it (otherwise the poor dwarf would be level 4/5 just from the completion of this quest). 
Now, considering that boots and belts can only be worn from level 2 onwards, our end goal is to somehow get every other piece of equipment with the maximum amount of sockets
and enough +x Trading or +x To All Skills Rings or Amulets to put in them.

Now, there's a catch if you just do that You will end up with:

Armor Type(max Sockets)
Helmet(3)
Armor(4)
Cannon(3)
Shoulder Pads(2)
Gloves (1)
One-handed Weapon(3)*
Shield(3)
+ 4 Rings 
+ 2 Amulets
------------------
+25 To All Skills @ level 1 
 (this totals to) +26 Trading

Which seems amazing, however, after reaching a certain Trade level you will start finding (even at level 1, which is crazy) items with full sockets and +1 To All Skills.
Now, unfortunately I cannot tell you where the 'breakpoint' is so I suggest splitting the acquisition of your super crazy lvl 1 Trading Suit into two stages.
Stage 1
a. You buy all max socket pieces of equipment
b. You buy enough Rings and Amulets to fill the sockets
c. Put 'em in.
Stage 2
a. You find all max socket pieces of equipment with a +1 To All Skills
    a* Here's a little something I didn't know - there is a single handed sword with 4 sockets. 
        Alternatively, you could always search for a 3 socket weapon with +1 To All Skills
b. Buy enough Rings and Amulets (Don't forget you could get one Socketable per item back from your previous suit)
c. You can now go to the top and Check the Spoiler Section and Provided Image :)

Aftermath | What changes I've noticed with this suit
   - A substantial increase in Gear pieces with max Sockets, +5 Chance to Land a Critical Hit and 20% Regeneration Special Move on rings and amulets, +%x WIDD and a lot more other funky things that 
     one might not expect to find at such a low level. (I, myself gathered 20x +5 Chance to Land a Critical Hit in Amulets and Rings and two Single handed Swords with 4 sockets each for a future DW build)

Conclusion and Use Case
   
- A good shop for a build that you've pre-planned can absolutely be enough (due to the amount of protection and general stats that you're getting from the Socketables) to take you through 
     Silver entirely, with another Shop at 20-25 just for Weapons.
   - If definitely feels a lot faster to shop for the rarer Item Properties and Bonuses saving a ton of time when starting as new build.

Edited by xeyp
  • Appreciation 1
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  • The title was changed to Sacred Underworld - Is this the best Character level : Trade level ratio? How to Replicate and My Experience
23 hours ago, xeyp said:

Hello everyone, long time Forum Stalker here - finally making my first post, which hopefully is in the right section.

There are Three and a half questions and a bit of a guide/experience in this post:
- (the half question) Does going over the 1:1 Character level to Trade level benefit us
    (it's only half a question because there was definitely a difference between going from 1:5 to 1:20 and further, but there's the possibility that I might just we looking to confirm my beliefs?)
- (Question 1) Is the Ratio of Character Level to Trading Level important (I.e. Relative difference) -or- is it the just the Absolute number of levels that the skill goes to after reaching a 1:1 ratio with the Character's lvl.
- (Question 2) I wonder if there's something that I might've missed in order to bring the ratio even higher? I'm also assuming the skills have a cap at 255, however, reading Wolfe's Lair section on Max Levels - there's an asterisk that states: *Even if you exceed the value shown in skill point screen you will still see the effects of additional points awarded through items in the actual stats that the skill effects
- (Question 3) Does Trading actually benefit from going over 255 and how much so?

For people that are not interested in the Context a Guide of Replication and my Experience, but rather want to compare notes and answer the question posed by the thread - here's the final ratio:

  Reveal hidden contents

A bit of context

As it happens every summer, I get an urge to install and dive into Ancaria once more, but time and time again as I start getting to
the end of Gold I find myself with less and less time, so I have to delete the game (don't worry I keep my characters in a big, well-named folder structure)
until the next Summer comes. As much as I love the characters that I've built, every time I install the game I always get the urge to start fresh - this time was no different.
Of course every start requires a proper setup.

The Setup and how to Replicate it

(I group the characters I play in two categories - one is Solo Self Found-like, where I don't pick up Trading and I don't mule equipment to them - and the other either 
 pick up Trading or I just build a dedicated Traded to equip them whenever the need arises - this discussion is centered around starting one such trader from scratch and 
 realizing that I this might be the best ratio of Character level to Trading Level (I seem to remember that the higher it goes, the better).

Of course, we're talking about a level 1 Dwarf that has had some money (around 2,000,000 to be safe) muled to them and another character has completed the Bravemart Delivery quest in a 
Local Multiplayer / Cooperative Game, and has saved it (otherwise the poor dwarf would be level 4/5 just from the completion of this quest). 
Now, considering that boots and belts can only be worn from level 2 onwards, our end goal is to somehow get every other piece of equipment with the maximum amount of sockets
and enough +x Trading or +x To All Skills Rings or Amulets to put in them.

Now, there's a catch if you just do that You will end up with:

Armor Type(max Sockets)
Helmet(3)
Armor(4)
Cannon(3)
Shoulder Pads(2)
Gloves (1)
One-handed Weapon(3)*
Shield(3)
+ 4 Rings 
+ 2 Amulets
------------------
+ 25 To All Skills @ level 1 
 (this totals to) +26 Trading

Which seems amazing, however, after reaching a certain Trade level you will start finding (even at level 1, which is crazy) items with full sockets and +1 To All Skills.
Now, unfortunately I cannot tell you where the 'breakpoint' is so I suggest getting splitting the acquisition of your super crazy lvl 1 Trading Suit into two stages.
Stage 1
a. You buy all max socket pieces of equipment
b. You buy enough Rings and Amulets to fill the sockets
c. Put 'em in.
Stage 2
a. You find all max socket pieces of equipment with a +1 To All Skills
    a* Here's a little something I didn't know - there is a single handed sword with 4 sockets. 
        Alternatively, you could always search for a 3 socket weapon with +1 To All Skills
b. Buy enough Rings and Amulets (Don't forget you could get one Socketable per item back from your previous suit)
c. You can now go to the top and Check the Spoiler Section and Provided Image :)

Aftermath | What changes I've noticed with this suit
   - A substantial increase in Gear pieces with max Sockets, +5 Chance to Land a Critical Hit and 20% Regeneration Special Move on rings and amulets, +%x WIDD and a lot more other funky things that 
     one might not expect to find at such a low level. (I, myself gathered 20x +5 Chance to Land a Critical Hit in Amulets and Rings and two Single handed Swords with 4 sockets each for a future DW build)

Conclusion and Use Case
   
- A good shop for a build that you've pre-planned can absolutely be enough (due to the amount of protection and general stats that you're getting from the Socketables) to take you through 
     Silver entirely, with another Shop at 20-25 just for Weapons.
   - If definitely feels a lot faster to shop for the rarer Item Properties and Bonuses saving a ton of time when starting as new build.

Helloooooooo and good morning xeyp!!

Its 730 AM here in Montreal and were here off to a sunny :sun: morning of weekend gloriousness! Seeing your combo Introduction/question/guide with its beautifully formatted colors and organization is worthy of it journeying to becoming a true, and useful  DarkMatters Sacred game guide! :hooyaah:.

Thank you for finding our little Sacred hole here in the universe.  And, as well,  coming to us from long-time-stalker-status land. Its one of my favorite expressions because its so meaningful :D

The concept of introduction  and its section here was created  some 20 years ago at Erialc's insistence that people here should  come first, and that its only proper *British* manners :4rofl:

It quickly became my favorite and most often re-read section of our forum :heart: 

Meeting new people who are not only interested in the game but possessed of the same ,aligned,  generous spirit is a magnificent way to start the day :cow: 

Enjoy the boards friend, and welcome to DarkMatters

:dance2:

gogo

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11 hours ago, SLD said:

I can't come up with anything better than your dwarf's approach. If no +trading/+">1 to all skills" items can be bought that's probably it. It should help to do the shopping in niob difficulty which you can reach by joining a dedicated gameserver but not pressing start yet and then changing the difficulty to niob on the gameserver(gameserver.exe in the sacred underworld folder).

Woah, I had no idea about that, that's a huge tip, thank you! Now I gotta check what's the difference between Bronze and Niob shopping at level 1, lol. :) 

11 hours ago, SLD said:

Though the Skill never shows a higher number than 255 you can have ~255 bonus points to a skill(but not more) that add to whatever actual skill level you have from hard points. meaning the actual cap is around 471 as you can only put in points up to your level. That the effects scale beyond 255 can be proven for skills like weapon lore that do state numbers. Does it work on trading? All we can do is guess. What I can say with almost absolute certainty is that you will never beat the lvl1 dwarf trading "ratio". That now already covered question 3 as well.

Again, didn't know that 471 is the actual cap, going to write that down in my notes asap :P 
Now, assuming that it does work for trading, I've a question that you might have and answer for:
    - Can you get +470 to trading / all skills (total) at 216?
    (Unfortunately I've always stopped somewhere around level 80-100 due to the schedule I've had at the time, so I don't know how item bonuses scale at that level)

I'm asking, because here's my train of thought (please correct me if some of my beliefs / experiences seem to be incorrect)
- When considering Skills and Skill Point distribution for a build, my experience has led me to believe that 
  the higher the character level, the less actual impact the skill selection has relative to the equipment ( especially when the diminishing returns are taken into account)
  and because trading directly affects equipment, it might be argued that it is actually the best skill to take for Defense, Offense and General Utility.
  Also, given that rarely do builds depend on all 8 Skills, again - my experience leads me to conclude that the last one or even two Skills have the lowest impact.
  Meaning that even if people who argue against Trading for reasons among the lines of:  'You could source your gear via loot or dedicated Trader and it could've been another useful skill instead"
  can't really argue against it (especially if the choice left is Disarming / Riding etc.).
     Now assuming my experience somehow lines up with the truth, it only confirms Skill selection and not the Skill Point distribution part of the process.
     Because while one can pick Trading on all Characters that have it for little to no cost to the build - pumping 215 points into it is another matter.
  Given that I generally don't plan for going over 100 in Build-enhancing-but-non-critical Skills that would mean that the cost of Trading is more than 
  two Skills, which is a BIG cost and can heavily affect the build. That being said I do have a Wood Elf with a somewhat standard Explosive Arrow build 
  that has picked trading, but has a dedicated trading suit that keeps it well above her level, so the convenience factor is absolutely there with absolutely no cost
  to the build. If the answer is yes, that'd open the door for very exciting dual-purpose builds and significantly raise the weight of Picking, but not necessarily investing in
  Trading for my builds going forwards.

---
 

4 hours ago, gogoblender said:

Helloooooooo and good morning xeyp!!

Its 730 AM here in Montreal and were here off to a sunny :sun: morning of weekend gloriousness! Seeing your combo Introduction/question/guide with its beautifully formatted colors and organization is worthy of it journeying to becoming a true, and useful  DarkMatters Sacred game guide! :hooyaah:.

It's my pleasure, privilege and honor to be greeted by a legend such as yourself :) I've been lurking here on and off for a long time and have come to expect your name to pop up in every important post.
Please don't flatter me so for I have a long way to go before anything I post can be considered valuable enough to go there. Sacred for me was the first ARPG that I really dug into mechanistically and the guides in Wolfe's Lair the Wiki and DarkMatters for me are like gospel, they are the holy word! :D 

 

5 hours ago, gogoblender said:

The concept of introduction  and its section here was created  some 20 years ago at Erialc's insistence that people here should  come first, and that its only proper *British* manners :4rofl:

It quickly became my favorite and most often re-read section of our forum :heart: 

Meeting new people who are not only interested in the game but possessed of the same ,aligned,  generous spirit is a magnificent way to start the day :cow: 

Enjoy the boards friend, and welcome to DarkMatters


I swear I went over the Rules and Posting Principles before my first post (checked it again just to make sure I didn't miss anything)
but I didn't see anything about Introducing myself here - I'll do so ASAP, as I do have some questions that I didn't know where to ask and doing so here
would have gone against the Rules and Posting Principles :D 
Thank you again for the warm welcome an I hope that I can add my spark to this wonderful fire!

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55 minutes ago, xeyp said:

Woah, I had no idea about that, that's a huge tip, thank you! Now I gotta check what's the difference between Bronze and Niob shopping at level 1, lol. :) 

Again, didn't know that 471 is the actual cap, going to write that down in my notes asap :P 
Now, assuming that it does work for trading, I've a question that you might have and answer for:
    - Can you get +470 to trading / all skills (total) at 216?
    (Unfortunately I've always stopped somewhere around level 80-100 due to the schedule I've had at the time, so I don't know how item bonuses scale at that level)

I'm asking, because here's my train of thought (please correct me if some of my beliefs / experiences seem to be incorrect)
- When considering Skills and Skill Point distribution for a build, my experience has led me to believe that 
  the higher the character level, the less actual impact the skill selection has relative to the equipment ( especially when the diminishing returns are taken into account)
  and because trading directly affects equipment, it might be argued that it is actually the best skill to take for Defense, Offense and General Utility.
  Also, given that rarely do builds depend on all 8 Skills, again - my experience leads me to conclude that the last one or even two Skills have the lowest impact.
  Meaning that even if people who argue against Trading for reasons among the lines of:  'You could source your gear via loot or dedicated Trader and it could've been another useful skill instead"
  can't really argue against it (especially if the choice left is Disarming / Riding etc.).
     Now assuming my experience somehow lines up with the truth, it only confirms Skill selection and not the Skill Point distribution part of the process.
     Because while one can pick Trading on all Characters that have it for little to no cost to the build - pumping 215 points into it is another matter.
  Given that I generally don't plan for going over 100 in Build-enhancing-but-non-critical Skills that would mean that the cost of Trading is more than 
  two Skills, which is a BIG cost and can heavily affect the build. That being said I do have a Wood Elf with a somewhat standard Explosive Arrow build 
  that has picked trading, but has a dedicated trading suit that keeps it well above her level, so the convenience factor is absolutely there with absolutely no cost
  to the build. If the answer is yes, that'd open the door for very exciting dual-purpose builds and significantly raise the weight of Picking, but not necessarily investing in
  Trading for my builds going forwards.

---
 

It's my pleasure, privilege and honor to be greeted by a legend such as yourself :) I've been lurking here on and off for a long time and have come to expect your name to pop up in every important post.
Please don't flatter me so for I have a long way to go before anything I post can be considered valuable enough to go there. Sacred for me was the first ARPG that I really dug into mechanistically and the guides in Wolfe's Lair the Wiki and DarkMatters for me are like gospel, they are the holy word! :D 

 


I swear I went over the Rules and Posting Principles before my first post (checked it again just to make sure I didn't miss anything)
but I didn't see anything about Introducing myself here - I'll do so ASAP, as I do have some questions that I didn't know where to ask and doing so here
would have gone against the Rules and Posting Principles :D 
Thank you again for the warm welcome an I hope that I can add my spark to this wonderful fire!

hah.. no worries! and thank you for the especially kind, and supportive words :blush2:... Just read them to Schot right now and were like... waaaaaaaaaaaaah :bounce:   hahhah, I only mentioned the introduction section as a reference...I think you've done a marvelously skillful bit of writing here with your first post, and you've already met @SLD who is a wiz with math and can offer great perspective on numbers, craft and magic, which is all this game is about :schot: 

Again, thanks for finding us, enjoy your new home and stay smiley!

 

:hugs:

gogo

 

ps and now that you've made your first post, you have won yourself the power to add an avatar.... WOOOOOOOOOOOO  :dance2:

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3 hours ago, SLD said:

It's also a bug abuse so it gives op items at low levels but doesn't neccessarily add more fun to the game.
 

First of all, thank you engaging in this topic so thoroughly I'm learning a ton. :)

Yeah, Bug abuse definitely isn't my thing, but it's fun to know that there is such a possibility if for some reason there is something that I'd like to try that might require a manoeuvre like that.
What it might be the most useful I think is being able to quickly create 'stash' characters and being able to send them to all difficulties to mule items for your other characters instead of having to level them to 
the appropriate levels. 

 

3 hours ago, SLD said:

There is a maximum from bonus points somewhere around 250

Now this is something that I was so not aware of - so much so that you mentioned it in the previous post and it went over my head. 
But I'm not going to take it as something entirely bad :D because this combined with the knowledge of the Unique Amulet that can help you reach max Bonus actually
makes for a more nuanced way of looking at things. As there is both value in a 'Pure trader' with hard capped trading and a 'Casual Trader' taking it as an auxiliary skill and spending no points on it.
Maybe the Pure trader will be able to more fully equip a character with pieces that as you say are hard-to-impossible to replace, where the Casual trader may be able to 'plug' any holes in the equipment with decent enough gear until better drops come - and in that way make sure that the build doesn't fall apart in any point of a playthrough.

 

4 hours ago, SLD said:

I hope that helps putting into perspective which skills trading would have to compete with, how little diversity buids crafted for perfection actually have etc.

Oh, absolutely, I should've worded it differently, more like "...rarely do build that I make use all 8", the Meta builds in any game usually look all the same in their conceptual exploitation of the mechanics and usually reach the same playstyle as everything just dies instantly making any gameplay differences largely irrelevant. That is why I have a preference for Off-Meta or even 'Anti-Meta' where I feel that (especially based on the individual build) the skills are weighted differently in terms of importance. 
I just love figuring out how odd a build can be and still work even if(sometimes especially if) it requires forgoing some defenses and relying on manual operation instead of face-tanking. 

 

4 hours ago, SLD said:

Example would be the famous crossbow gladiator. There's a guide for it though the writer of that guide had no clue about these things and never understood why his build was so op :) 

Haha, yet another thing you've opened my eyes to, amazing. Thank you so much - I'm like a kid at Christmas that was already happy with what he got and then got some more. 

 

4 hours ago, SLD said:

Another thng to consider however is that by chosing trade you will be standing in town for a lot of time instead of actually playing the game. It also kinda devalues drops as you will basically never find something better than what you've bought. So in the long run it's quite an anti-fun mechanic as well.

There's the thing and I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I love trading and getting to see what type of item the game can create. After the first 10 minutes in Bravemart, once I'm warmed up it absolutely starts feeling like that scene in the Matrix - you stare at a screen of numbers and then suddenly start to understand the system. So for me it is a fun-fun mechanic. 
I, however, agree that it devalues drops somewhat - that's why I think it's great that you can't find Uniques and Set items in the shops and some Uniques are really build defining, some builds can also rely on a certain Set to be as strong as they can, but most importantly having multiple characters definitely still brings some joy to loot if you're keeping in mind what you need for each one when parsing through loot.
Again on the other hand, some off/anti meta builds that I've made and tested are so out there that there's almost like a certain equipment requirement for it to function and that without Trading is an absolute pain, especially in the early levels when you don't have a lot of Magic Find or Survival Bonus

---
And again, thank you for the discourse SDL, this is the most I've talked about Sacred with someone in probably over a decade. 

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My apologies, SLD.
Touch typing has its benefits, but sometimes I do swap the places of letters and fail to notice it, especially on names and abbreviations that don't trigger spell check.

Yeah, I've heard about that SB trick, but I'm always actively doing something on the computer unfortunately.

6 hours ago, SLD said:

Just drop the items in a campaign game and save it

To be fair, I've mostly only muled from low level traders to toons just starting out as the time spent versus the 'reward' is better than for toons at higher levels and I don't especially enjoy the whole process too much(which is why I was trying to figure out if I can't just boost trading fully through equipment and forgo a dedicated trader and the muling that it entails).
I just remember that Csaszar's "POSSIBLE PREPARATIONS BEFORE STARTING A NEW CHAR - GUIDE" mentioning that you need Mules at level 60, 100, 140 to encompass all difficulties, but that might've been for (non-LAN) multiplayer, so I've just be setting aside separate exports of my toons at certain levels whenever I start fresh. 

Okay, time to go implement all I've learnt, test a few build ideas and hopefully produce a guide or two that are at the very least entertaining. :)

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