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Sacred Underworld - What is the Attack Speed -% Stat/Modifier on Weapons? A Quick Question about a Stat in-game on Weapons


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Posted (edited)

Ok, I give up! :blush: You know way more about the game than I do. I'm not here to argue with you, we're family here. And if you like Sacred 2 more, that's absolutely fine with me, as I love it too. What I wanted to tell you is how hard the game gets is up to you. If it feels too easy, go higher difficulty. If it still feels too easy, do it hardcore! If still easy, get most of your runes through quests as it was intended instead of duping them! Maybe that won't make the game actually harder, but it will sure make you think about what combat arts you pick up, and plan ahead. If still too easy, forget about your stored items and use only the ones you find with that char. And IF after all this you still find it too easy, you can still try different states of mind to make it more challenging. But of course it's totally up to you, how far you take it.  I played my fair share of hack and slash games, and I wouldn't say Sacred 1 is among the most challenging, but it's not extraordinarily easy to beat either.

But how on earth did we get here? Look at what you started SilverStreak809!  :D I'm done with this topic. Good night guys! Happy hunting!

Edited by Sethi22
  • Like! 1
Posted
10 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

Ok, I give up! :blush: You know way more about the game than I do.

And I had hoped I'd learn something new :(
at least tell me what you meant with that "crappy leech shield" :)

10 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

I'm not here to argue with you

Neither am I.

I love it how your suggested path to raising the challenge takes all the way to step number three to consider "not duping runes" :)

10 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

I wouldn't say Sacred 1 is among the most challenging, but it's not extraordinarily easy to beat either.

As xeyp the wise has stated in his master's thesis, to beat the game might mean anything from finishing the bronze campaign to fulfilling your dream of bathing in niobium anducar's blood.
I mentioned lack of difficulty as reason for the "creative array of builds" because I was certain that while many of these characters may have been able to finish the bronze campaign, almost none of them ever bathed at all. :)  

  • Like! 1
Posted (edited)
On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

And that's where we get to see what kinds of odd stuff people play and that there's a "creative array of builds"

Best compliment I've received in a while. :blush: Odd is the new sexy haha.
 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

If Sacred where a "hard" game you'd only see a few "good" build guides and lots of people on the forum complaining that the game was impossible to beat because their throwing blades gladiator went bankrupt after accidentally throwing too many expensive weapons into the ocean...

Again, define good, what does good mean - does it bring more fun, is it the most effective DPS? 
In the Grim Dawn community there's a solution to this problem by using a late in-game metric. When browsing the builds in forums or an auxiliary site they're rated based on how many floors it can complete in a floor based end game activity, that only gets more difficult. And another one from a DLC that is based on waves of monsters that get progressively harder. Not all builds that can fully complete all floors can do all the waves and vice versa - additionally there are many, very highly rated builds (possibly the most Fun Per Second) that can't fully finish either. 

If Sacred build guides were measured using metrics like - "can finish Niob this and that" and even timing certain bosses known for their tankiness and giving accurate estimate of strength versus things that the build is strong against and those it isn't - you would see that the case is that there really are fewer and fewer builds that can compete at the highest levels. 
Like you I don't necessarily think they all should be able to do everything well.

After all that is the point of difficulty to be a filter(as you pointed out a little later), but to still allow you in the earlier ones to play and learn what works and what doesn't, so you can start again with improved knowledge and reach further next time, so little to no build should be viable to begin with and the requirements should only get more stringent. 
What we both are missing here is the perspective on how Niob scales, as I have a feeling from all of the information I've gathered, that the scaling is much harsher.
 @Sethi22 definitely adds to my suspicion. I also think that design-wise, we don't have 'cow level' or 'maps' or any other iteration of endgame content ( to be fair it would've been a shame given how gorgeous Ancaria is) but in an ARPG world dominated by 3 difficulties at that time we have 4+1, but if I had to fit them into diablo's Normal, Nightmare, Hell - I'd say bronze is Easy. So we have 3 difficulties + a bonus one for Challenge, I think Niob is our cow level.

Also, if purgatory-hybrid man CAN beat Niob's hardest bosses, but isn't exactly optimal to the last attribute point
that doesn't make him bad, just less efficient - however, consider that the hybrid build, while lacking in Damage Per Second,
may offer a much better Fun Per Second. And as the great saying goes - if it's stupid, but it works, it ain't stupid. 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

I must admit, I never thought about the possibility that someone could find joy in intentionally failing :) 

I almost have a belief that a presumption of possible failure and the challenges that would entail is almost a prerequisite to wanting to engage in the task anyway.
 

If you know with certainty that you CAN, why do it?
(I'm certainly not talking about survival stuff here, thankfully I don't have to question whether or not I can fix my next meal :D

 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

The opposite would be something like poe where I can have as much knowledge as I want and still won't beat it as the developers actively push that skill requirement in there that I might not be capable of overcoming.

Again, 'beating' PoE is loaded with ambiguity. Last time I played I watched a few guides, learned what ballpark of defensive and offensive stats I required and tried fixing up something that I wanted to play.
The result is I finished all of the acts and even started doing some starter maps. Was my build inefficient - absolutely, thankfully they have re-spec so I was able to fill some holes and get some gear to fill other holes - what happened is I managed to progress a few levels further into mapping, then a stone wall again, but stone walls usually have writing on them and you learn and adapt, but that's besides the point what I was trying to say is that I got nowhere near Uber bosses. Did I feel like I beat the game? Sure, I went through the whole campaign, which was my goal for this character. Next character might've had the goal to finish all map levels and maybe attempt and Uber boss. As you know much better than I, assuming I'm a little younger, 'Beating' as a term comes from a time where games had much smaller scope and were of mostly linear style - it is a synonym for completing / completion. You (theoretically can) but practically CANNOT complete modern ARPGS. That would entail slaying all monsters, collecting all possible permutations of loot, trying all characters and all possible combinations of builds, which is why people set particular, unambiguous goals. So if you brush on its mechanics slightly and set an achievable goal I definitely think you can 'beat' that goal and have fun doing it. What I don't personally like about PoE, thought, and why I love Sacred and have high hopes for PoE II is the blazingly fast pace of clearing. It's just not attractive, all character fantasy is lost, they're all just blazing blazers of the blaze, everything dies so fast it doesn't matter how, everything reacts so quickly it doesn't matter what mechanics were involved.
 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

As for the superfluous character configurations in your hypothetical, from my perspective we already have superfluous combat arts like "throwing blades"...

While for the specific case of 'Throwing blades' I agree absolutely - but every game has elements that are superfluous, game devs and designers simply cannot comprehend all of the
possible combinations that may arise and what combination can make something else irrelevant. What matters is the proportion of superfluous things to those that aren't.
Additionally, having been around ARPG communities enough, I can safely say that a lot of what is initially deemed superfluous could and does find 
viability, with enough creativity on the part of the builder. In fact I've seen superfluous turn into meta, the moment the perspective changes on how to approach builds.
Different types builds require different gear. 
 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

well usually I would start by asking myself wether it could be better when I did include a special move or spell.

And here's my point on that continuing from the last paragraph. Approaching the question of a character that uses no CA or Spell with 'it could be better if with CA or Spell' negates the whole thought experiment by way of simply ignoring it's premise. Yes, CAs scale offenses very well, we know that and the game definitely leans towards that direction, however that is a singular type of build. As you yourself said, building this way you simply look of + Regen Spell/Special move on all characters and + to the particular skill. 
Btw, why Fadalmar and not Orla-Isling, you are fighting groups of monsters most of the time. Maybe even have both :P

 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

I might miss out on build options that I misjudge but I can't just play everything and I'm certainly not motivated to play a build that I expect to be crap all the way to endgame just to prove that it is.

Absolutely, I get your point in general - if you know something works, why change it(too much) and I certain feel that we simply have a slightly difference perspective about reaching the same goal.
You said that you feel like you haven't gotten out of chasing the meta, I wouldn't say I am not chasing 'a meta' I just think your approach is to stick to incremental improvement and min-maxing and I also assume you enjoy the 'manifestation' quite a lot, maybe a little more than myself perhaps.  I try shooting in different directions to try and find alternative methods to reach a meta and then by enriching my mechanical vocabulary, loop back around and see what I can combine from the 'traditional' meta and what I've learned along the way. This is definitely not an original approach, I always try to learn from people who are much better than I, and am always fascinated by seeing something so bizarre that you ask yourself 'How did they think of that?'. Many times it's obvious, which makes it even more fascinating.
I certainly wouldn't play something I EXPECT to be bad, let me rephrase myself:
- After some time the playerbase of any ARPG knows where it generally leans(biases) towards in terms of builds. For Sacred that would be the complete and utter focus on CA's and Spells as a means of scaling damage and keeping their cooldown as low as possible.
- Everything opposed to that general direction is more or less considered as un-optimal at best and unplayable at worst. 
Without any evidence of potential, there is no point in trying something you know is bad.
For example by playing you come across a certain type of item here and there and you start to see a pattern that could be exploited with so and so character class. If there's no potential and it's proven it's bad, there's no need to try it out until something changes - I'm an empiricist first, so I'll never deny the data. 
My personal belief is that, knowing what works and sticking to it, gives little to no reward ( in terms of knowledge ) you'll certainly not uncover something new by doing the same thing time after time. Testing a hypothesis about an idea you have on something that MIGHT work, however, is almost entirely reward - even when you fail you will learn for certain that something doesn't work.

For example, I am testing a character right now that isn't relying on spells or special moves offensively as I saw a pattern in the itemization ripe for exploitation and additionally a few weapons that are custom fit for the idea as a whole, one of which is easily obtainable and doesn't rely on RNG. I want to see whether it scales into the higher difficulties as I hope and whether it's a viable path for building for other characters, it would be an alternative to the 'type' of solely relying on CAs/ Spells for damage (I'm definitely not saying it will be better, just hoping it will be viable). What I am finding so far, after a really slow start - is that I can actually scale defense really well from the strategy and that I might start thinking about using it on CA based characters. Additionally, items that are very useful for this build are not considered very special by the game, due to it's design biases. I'd rather not go into detail, because I'd rather not contribute builds that work in gold and plat, but taper of in Niob.


 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

uff this one took me almost 5 hours. I hope it was worth it.

Whatever impression of structured thought you might have been left with, it came after at least 2 hours of re-writes.
But I think we both got our points across and believe we fully(should) understand each other's perspective. 
I, again, thank you for engaging with me, it's been a pleasure as always. :)

 

On 7/17/2024 at 3:52 PM, SLD said:

most of those ships probably didn't, but they still happily sailed across ancaria. :)

And that's what matters most! :) :) :)

- also on your post from next page, don't you use Sacred UW's auto pick (keybound to A)? Disable the pick-up animation from the settings and it's much faster. Sure it's not as fast as Sacred 2's if items are spread far apart, but usually they aren't. 

 @gogoblender you sir have missed a whole lot of words over here! :D

Edit: fixing wonky formatting after posting

Edited by xeyp
Posted
11 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

I'm not here to argue with you, we're family here.

I think arguing gets a bad reputation from screaming parents/ adults. 
I feel that we're simply presenting each other's points of view calmly and seeing what we can learn from one another I, xeyp the wise ;) , certainly am.
There's no way for me to know you guys and gals better without the exchange of ideas :) Either we find out we agree, but word things differently - or have 
a certain angle that is correct for both parties(and we get to know one another better), or someone is wrong - which ultimately means, especially if I'm wrong, that I get to learn something
and that's a 10/10 "master-thesis-was-worth-it" experience.
 I will definitely try to be as succinct as possible, but I'm afraid I'm not as good with verbal communication as I would like, so I
write longer posts, which I hope to be able to trim down in the future while still retaining the same message.
 

53 minutes ago, SLD said:

almost none of them ever bathed at all. :)  

Are you crazy, in this weather? :D 

Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, SLD said:


at least tell me what you meant with that "crappy leech shield" :)

 

Ok, I can't let you suffer. It's my bad, I said squishier characters lacking defensive skills. Of course I meant strong defensive combat arts, like Heroic Courage, War cry, Adrenaline, and so on. Compared to a Wood elf, who can only rely on her COTA or the RBOL of the Sera... Even my last poison trapper, who was by far the easiest char I've played (with his maxed out Adrenaline) had his moment, when a Nio Frazzler crept up on him from behind, while he was studying his inventory:) Oh man! I checked afterwards, the guy had 8% chance to hit me. But of course he did immediately, and the whole combo came through, resulting in like 50K damage. I was so happy I took riding and was on my mount! It would have been curtains if on foot. So I wouldn't call a game extraordinarily easy to beat, where one single creature, who's not even a boss, maybe not even a champion, just a regular guy in the endgame can oneshot you easily. And they of course come in hordes... Bosses are actually the easier part, it's cruising around in the Valley and the Ridge that was the most challenging part for me.

Edited by Sethi22
  • Haha 1
Posted (edited)

But you know what, @SLD? I really respect your knowledge about this game, although I find it a bit sad that you don't play it any more and also that you don't want to drink with me (Just please don't quote this drinking part again, because I can already feel the ever watchful eye of @gogoblender upon us! I can feel his anger growing! Sooner or later he will surely strike at us with his unearthly powers, lifting this whole topic into the "The Daily Grind: Real life right here" section, (and then anybody interested in the AS mod on the Hack sword will never find it! :D))

But what I wanted to ask you is this: Remember the overflowing numbers thing you said to me a while ago? About the damage cap on single element damage? Now THAT was some really interesting stuff, that I think every sacred player should know!  If there's a topic for it already, I've never read it. Could you point me to one, and if there is none, and if you have the will and the time, could you start a new topic about that and explain that in details? I've been thinking about that ever since, as it's really game changing information I had absolutely no clue about! :resp:

Edited by Sethi22
  • Like! 1
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, SLD said:


Well I have played Niob to at least past clvl 170, but It has been a long time ago. To me it felt no different at all back then. Wether less powerful builds would feel the differnence more I don't know. My gSethi22 claims that the last 30 levels change things but also hasn't answered wether he ever reached them at all.u

 

No. My bad again, I misunderstood your initial post about the "last 30 levels". My highest char is I think 165. But I stay now in platinum Valley at least until level 150, and so in all of niobium I only do like 15 levels till the end. So it's definitely my "last 30". But what I wanted to say there is, that after finishing platinum, the start of niobium doesn't feel or play much different, and you can feel, you have what it takes. I never died in niobium main campaign. The beginning of Underworld is fine too, maybe the nuk-nuks can be a problem, but nothing too serious. After leaving the pirate island and going to the dryads is the point, where it can start to get hairy. Those guided arrows really hurt! Have two of them on you, and you're toast (Well, with my reflexes, you're definitely toast. Maybe you would survive them...) And then the ridge and the valley. That's where I lost all my "hardcore" characters. So it's the absolute endgame, I found challenging, it was pretty smooth sailing until then.

Edited by Sethi22
Posted
2 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

(Well, with my reflexes, you're definitely toast. Maybe you would survive them...)

I wouldn't bet on my reflexes being better than yours. Unless you have some undisclosed illness or are very old, you should have a significant advantage here. As I said before, I have no player skill all I have is knowledge of the game mechanics and I got to admit Sacred might be one of those games where that may not be enough at the end. Thats why I like Sacred 2 and its D2F mod where I can make invulnerable characters :)

2 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

And then the ridge and the valley. That's where I lost all my "hardcore" characters. So it's the absolute endgame, I found challenging, it was pretty smooth sailing until then.

You are describing exactly what I meant as well. There is a difficulty bump from platinum valley to niobium valley, but there is not much difference between a lvl 150 hellgolem and a lvl 180 or lvl 210 hellgolem. Thats a smooth scaling that your character usually outpaces. The difficulty bumps are basically there to help the monsters catch up.

2 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

My highest char is I think 165. But I stay now in platinum Valley at least until level 150, and so in all of niobium I only do like 15 levels till the end.

Maybe that is the problem. Assuming your character would still outpace the enemies levelling you might have an easier time if you managed to level to 190-200 before approaching the valley or something. We have no clue what level the developers were trying to balance those places around. Of course levelling to such a high level would take forever, so I can understand that dying might at some point feel like the better choice :)

  • Haha 1
Posted

Okay, I'm back, real-life scheduling changes can't stop me anymore. haha
@SLD
First of all, hard-agree on the Quality of guides. I think I just misinterpreted 'a good build guide' from your previous post as a 'good build guide' ,rather than a 'good build guide'.
As for the Context, meaning where this build slots compared to others, unless the 'builder' has had experience with most others it would be hard to - that's why I consider having varied in-game accomplishments
be the power/survivability metric as the ideal way to rank builds up or down. 

Would love a cow walking guide haha.

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

Less efficient is bad. The character oneshotting goblins and the fireball mage that does 1 damage per cast to a 1000hp goblin with a 3minute regen time that runs in circles while he waits for the next fireball are not comparable builds. Was the example extreme? Of course, but what can I do when purgatory hybrid isn't extreme enough for you to get it. You are right about different builds that are close to each other offering different benefits, but when the builds are far enough apart saying "it works" is quite a stretch.

Very extreme yes, but I agree about having builds that are enough apart that it makes a significant difference in gameplay. I was more-so referring to the fact that in ARPGs in general, some of the meta builds are so overtuned in terms of damage that they create a large amount of overkill. If you imagine that amount as a range, you can start taking away some of the damage over-tuning and replace it with QoL stuff for the build, or introduce variety and at the end of it, you would've exhausted a part of said overkill range, but you'd still be in it - but that in your definition wouldn't be that far apart. 
 

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

I finished the campaign once, not because I thought I could fail, but because I wanted to know the rest of the story. I usually play characters to find out where my build goes in terms of power, how things work etc. It's often rather a curiosity thing than a achievement thing. The other way around is also true. I'm now curious to see wether Purgatory-hybrid man can actually go all the way to niob but I don't want to suffer thorugh the process of getting there so I will never know. So failure would be possible but it doesn't motivate me at all.

Yeah, sorry that was an assumption on my part for me difficult things make me curious whether or not I can accomplish them and where my limits lie - and about what I can learn doing it. 
Curiosity is a hell of a motivator, one of the best in my opinion. 

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

it happens when you focus the action side of arpg. I would actually not be able to stand it the other way around, the full rpg of making quest choices with permanent consequences or starting your character by chosing a detailed lineage and basically writing a book about their background story.
Btw. Poe did not start out that fast. Like everything it grew driven by human greed. And everyone would still want the double pace or triple pace league :)

Oh don't get me wrong I am the same. It's just the pace of combat is too fast and they have acknowledged that by slowing it quite a lot in PoE 2. From what I understand the game designers also dislike it very much. But yeah, it definitely didn't, oh the days of the open beta haha.

 

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

I disagree on beating=completing=experiencing every possible build combination etc. From my perspective games like poe have "content" like the campaign, endgame maps, uber bosses etc. "Beating" the game from my perspective, means engaging successfully with all "content" of the game, or at least all content you are interested in. Should you have succeeded in beating the current content you can still do so with different builds etc so the "beaten game" is not over or anything like that. Again thismight just be a linguistic or philosophical difference here. I understand the concept of setting a goal for yourself and then achieving it. It is usually something that happens more along the way of improving my character like trying to get certain gear pieces etc.

Fair enough. 
 

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

Not sure if I would understand the example, depends on what game it comes from, but maybe you can give me a hint. Usually in a game that doesn't change the perspective doesn't change, just as "throwing blades" suddenly becoming meta seems quite unlikely :)

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

The ultimate middle finger towards the balance team, "I made the worst build imaginable and still beat the game" mentality. It will take longer to achieve your goals it will be harder to achieve your goals, it mikght work, but it's still stupid :) 

This is usually early in a game's life or after a significant update - where the game designer has had one idea of how and from what things should scale, but has overlooked unorthodox interactions.
I think the ultimate middle finger to the game design/ balance team is to make a build that is opposed to how the game is supposed to be structured and beating the game better than more 'conventional' builds.
A little specific example: 
A game I played recently had a piece of equipment, meant for Fire-based builds that would give you a lot of critical damage on the condition that the target was Burning, at least double the average.
There are also Ice builds, that do DoT ice damage by cooling the air rapidly in an Area of Effect, which is a 'world effect' meaning it exists in the world - and then it disappears after 4 seconds. 
There's a weapon that can create these Ice world effects on crits and it hits really fast, so it's not meant for you to be able to scale both the critical chance + damage and the ice damage, which would count as 
elemental, which is why the weapon is not considered very optimal for ice builds as if you build for the ice damage, the chance of triggering it becomes much lower. 
It is an intermediary weapon of sorts until you get to the higher tier. 
Lastly, there are effects, like healing upon the disappearance of the Ice Area of Effect / or / added vulnerability when an enemy is within its confines. 
So in this case, you'd just take the weapon, pretend you're not doing Ice damage, massively invest in crit chance and damage, find a way to set your opponents on fire (of which there are ways) to benefit from 
a massive increase in critical damage and have the benefit of healing/vulnerability. Additionally, looking at it from the PoV of a crit-only weapon its high attack speed can help trigger some crit-related effects from other crit equipment and turn them from a 'slow but powerful build-up effect' to an almost instant large increase in power.
Looked at conventionally - an ice weapon with some promise, but also serious drawbacks. Looked at a little less conventionally, if we scale based on what is considered a drawback - wonderful crit weapon that synergizes well with things it's not meant to. 

 

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

ou think you caught me, he? Wrong! :)

Absolutely not, haha, just asking as I've never found either to alluring to try. Thanks for the great information I'll definitely be more wary of Orla from now on haha. 
 

On 7/25/2024 at 6:10 AM, SLD said:

Same, I just wish for that magical hug that lets us exchange all our thoughts in an instant so that we don't have to put so much work into this tedious and imprecise form of communiction. :)
 

Definitely, I find that people are a lot more like-minded than they think they are and the most substantial disagreement, when communicated enough, turns out to be a disagreement in how they agree on the particular topic, in other words to be a little clearer - they have the same beliefs and wants, but communicate them in a particular way and expect everyone who holds these same beliefs to express them in the same way.

It's too bad Scared does not have an active studio behind it, maybe if it did it would have more accessibility and be less straining for you to engage with. 

Now, I consider this topic officially closed. Else, gogoblender will ban me to the Underworld and back. 

 

Posted
2 hours ago, xeyp said:

This is usually early in a game's life or after a significant update - where the game designer has had one idea of how and from what things should scale, but has overlooked unorthodox interactions.

I agree, that when things change not all might be immediatly known/figured out. People may find new strategies. But with Sacred being out for two decades with no major changes, the chances for finding something new are slim. The only reason that chance isn't non-existant is because sacred has never been tzaken apart as thorougly as stuff like diablo 2 and poe and a lot of community knowledge also disappeared with the loss of the official forums and almost all fansites.

2 hours ago, xeyp said:

Definitely, I find that people are a lot more like-minded than they think they are and the most substantial disagreement, when communicated enough, turns out to be a disagreement in how they agree on the particular topic, in other words to be a little clearer - they have the same beliefs and wants, but communicate them in a particular way and expect everyone who holds these same beliefs to express them in the same way.

Very few have the will, patience and restraint to commit to communication until understanding is achieved. "Xeyp the wise" was not an overstatement. You have a very valuable gift.

2 hours ago, xeyp said:

Now, I consider this topic officially closed. Else, gogoblender will ban me to the Underworld and back. 

The Underworld isn't that bad, it's got the best levelling spot in the entire game. If he permanently banished us to bronze however that would really suck. After some time progress would get so slow that you might just as well go push :cow: :cow: :cow:

  • Haha 1
  • 3 weeks later...
Posted
On 7/25/2024 at 5:10 AM, SLD said:

Is there hope yet? Actually I have to admit, you did catch me here. A way to scale the damage of orla-aisling could potentially solve the problem and make it even far better than fadalmar.

I just did some testing into this and have to say, I was wrong. The low damage alone is not the problem of Orla-Aisling. I actually think its damage would be high enough. I think the crash comes more from the fact that the massive amount of projectiles don't properly dissappear. When they hit walls etc they stick around for a while. That way you can easily crash the game in valley even at quite a distance to enemies. It seems to work fine in the bellevue area but I don't think scaling damage would have a chance at solving this one.

Accidentally found a different non CA build however. It doesn't even need a skill. The Icon set doesn't turn off the darkelf's waterform set bonus. So he remains invisible while doing Icon damage. Icons do mostly physical damage and maybe some tiny bit fire. They can be scaled with +%phys/all dmg, Strength and widd but not +%spelldmg or weapon lore magic lore etc. It took quite a while to kill endgame niobium mobs with it but I had no proper widd so it could get from "super-slow" to "slow"... at least it's immortal :) btw phys demon can scale it well but won't be immortal....

Just wanted to slap this info here where we already talked about such stuff... Off topic madness for the win :cow:

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