xeyp 47 Share Posted August 15 (edited) Hello Some of you may know me as I started posting in the Underworld part of the forum recently. I've put many hours in the original and bought the sequel on launch, I played a Shadow Warrior I think until the end of silver, and experimented with the other characters a bit and was in love, for all it's faults it really is a 'sacred' experience for me. (lol) What I did realize was that there were still some things I wanted to accomplish and figure out - and classes that I hadn't even touched, before I 'moved on' to Sacred 2 and spent and equal amount of time there, until a day arrives where I just boot up whichever one I feel like. It might seem a little weird, but I try to get in a certain headspace for ARPG's so I can memorize as many spells, set and item modifiers and other such moving parts in order to start seeing weird interactions I can turn into builds or just power up 'conventional' builds in a different, possibly better way. I found myself recently with a little bit of time on my hands and slowly came back to the original, wrote myself a bunch of builds to test for the purpose of picking one to go to Niob (for the first time) with and started playing. Now, in parallel I've started slowly going through the entries in the Sacred (2) wiki to remind myself of mechanics and other useful things in the game, after all the two are as much similar as they are different. Now there are some questions I have regarding the installation/ additional downloads and mods, the changes introduced by CM and EE and other bits and I hope that we can make this topic a more universal - 'FAQ/Need to know' for people, in order to make getting into Sacred 2 much easier for New and Returning players. In any case, please add to the questions (and also answer them if you can, or provide links to Wiki/Forum posts) if you can think of anything that may not be intuitive, downright hidden or can just stump said New or Returning players. I think it would be optimal if wherever possible the posts made here can provide at least a short answer to reduce having to jump around (and if a related topic or something in the wiki exists) a link as well. After getting some answers from you wonderful people I'll attempt to condense it all in a 'Start here' thread with all necessary links so we can more easily convert moar people to the Sacred religion, lol. Additionally, if such a topic already exists, please direct me to it. Here are some of my questions. I've numbered them so it's easier to provide an answer even without using quotes. (please bear in mind that I've not played Sacred 2 since release, so it's all a blur ) Single Player vs. Multiplayer 1. Let me start with a bit of an Underworld player confusion. Since there are no character exports/imports - what happens if you fail a quest in a certain difficulty, is it permanently failed? There are a lot of issues the Import/Export system could circumvent, I'm assuming you could just boot up freeplay/campaign if SP character or SP campaign if LAN character and redo the quest? 1a) What is the difference between LAN and Single Player characters? 1a-1) Is it that LAN characters cannot save their progress in Single Player Campaign, and Single Player characters cannot save their Multiplayer Campaign progress? 1b) Are the SP characters and LAN characters' shared stashes different? 1c) From what I understand, the game automatically 'Exports' your character and 'Imports' it every time you open whichever Game Mode you choose? 1c-1) If you want to test something I.e. skill/attribute point allocation - is the only way to do so to back-up the respective save in "%USERPROFILE% \Saved Games\Ascaron Entertainment\Sacred 2" and then overwrite it? 1c-2) Following this logic, duplicating items for tests or whatnot can be accomplished by backing up and then overwriting the .sacred2chest filer? 2. Unique mounts - there was something about only being able to get them in Single-Player, can you get them as a LAN character in a Multiplayer Campaign? Additional Downloads, what to get and what to avoid 3. Elite textures & PhysX 3a) Elite Textures - I found this topic, and the related: https://mega.nz/folder/UpMxUILY#prDhBn_AbrBtJSDpdZoMeA link to download them. Are these the 'latest' Elite Textures, I'm asking because I saw a link to a larger 'Trimmed Elite Textures' file in DIMITRIUS'S CM PATCH ADDENDUM - 2023 1.0.0. These are the 'high-resolution' textures *but fixed* of legend (at least for me) from back in the day. Here are some questions regarding them: 3a-1) Are they, specifically the trimmed ones, available w/ either the Community Patch or the Enhanced Edition - or do we need to manually download them and quoting the thread: dmitrius154: "Back up original graphics20 - graphics24.zip, then paste zips from the archive to the pak folder of the game(alternatively, use Generic Mod Enabler)." (in .../Sacred 2 Gold/pak) 3a-2) Does this visual bug still persist. (The solution is dimitrius154: "An unfortunate side effect of some peculiar dds misinterpretation by photoshop. Remove graphics24.zip\hq\maps\spells\mahlstrom\t_dm-mahlstrom_do.dds.") 3b) PhysX - Legacy Driver and PhysX.pak - what to get, what to avoid. 3b-1) PhysX.pak - this comment in the same thread mentions Legacy PhysX.pak At the same time the EE Change Log mentions "All PhysX particles removed in CM Patch 1.60 have been restored and optimized to prevent crashing." So, assuming one doesn't use the EE he might need to manually download them, but risk crashing the game - and if one does, they need not worry? 3b-2) PhysX Legacy Drivers This wonderful Steam Post: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1254244510 Mentions downloading a Legacy PhysX driver. What is the general opinion on that, does it work, is it needed etc. ( this is the link they provided: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/physx/physx-9-13-0604-legacy-driver/ ) 4. Mods I'm looking through Nexus mods, and besides CP,EE and Purist, which we will discuss later - I'm curious which mods the Veterans recommend and why. Here are some I've found useful/beautiful and wanted to ask your collective opinion about. (also if there are any mod conflicts / mod induced instabilities, please let me know) - Reduced Fog \ Reduced Fog (DarkMatters) - Looks like an absolute visual necessity. - Grass Mod (The Ancaria Beautification Project) - I find the added variety(compared to the regular Grass mod that just desaturates), very visually appealing. That being said they're not Sacred 2 original textures so: - Realistic Grass mod \ (realistic) Grass Mod (DarkMatters) - Sacred Font - Sacred 2 Character Editor CP, EE, Purist (and Vanilla Drops for Community Patch) Before starting to write this post, I sat down and read the final Change-Logs for both the Community Patch 1.60 and the Enhanced Edition 3.2. Judging by the amount of work and bugfixes I assume that Ascaron left Sacred 2/Blood & Ice in a finished, but quite unpolished state, so something like the Community Patch, I feel, is more of a mandatory download, which is why it's in a different section in this post. What I'm trying to understand is where the Enhanced Edition/ Purist mod fit in. Here are some considerations I have. 5a) What is the most common configuration among players? I'm asking because I believe some people, at least myself, are interested in experiencing multiplayer again and a particular configuration of mods may allow for a bigger 'player' pool to choose from. Is CE-only the most common, is it CE + EE, how do people feel about the Alternate Spells module, is it widely accepted as 'cannon' now? 5b) Other players prefer a 'fixed' vanilla experience, what is the best solution for that? Let me explain myself a bit here. In Underworld you either have PureHD, which is largely just a fix for widescreen with a few bonuses -or- you have ReBorn, which is more of a total overhaul. Now, I think ReBorn might've solved a lot of issues, like spell damage capping at ~65k damage before Crit and WIDD and have added some QoL, but also in my opinion changed the game too much.From my limited understanding of Sacred 2 and having read the Change Logs for the CP and EE, at most there are tweaks to the balance and general fixes, rather than a full-blown overhaul/re-balance, is that assumption correct or is CP / EE a more radical departure from vanilla. (that being said, Underworld, I feel was in a lot more mature place when they stopped updating it versus Sacred 2, for obvious reasons and I assume some more 'radical' (but obvious/ still in the spirit of the game design's original intent) changes needed to be made to fix some oversights that would've been addressed in future patches, had Ascaron continued to exist. 5b-1) Here's the technical bit for this question, what configuration should one, aiming for the vanilla experience choose, but with an added twist! What would you recommend and why, please explain. -What are the implications of the tweaks and rebalances of the CP and EE, what was the Good, Bad and Ugly in Vanilla Sacred 2's original balance even after the bug fixes? -In other words, would you consider Vanilla as compared to CP or CP+EE worth the time of someone who hasn't yet gotten into the game, are they so different from the Vanilla experience to warrant an additional playthrough? (that being said, I've yet to see a recent Sacred 2 gameplay video w/o the Community Patch at least, so in a sense that is the Community's Vanilla, lol) Let me quote Flix/ster from the Purity FixPack Nexus Mods' page: "Sacred 2 is a game sorely in need of rebalance, and I still believe that the Community Patch + Enhanced Edition is still the best way to experience the game. However, I also believe that people deserve to be able to play the game that the developers intended, as bug-free as possible. That way the player can decide if they want to then try a more streamlined and robust mod like Enhanced Edition." Do you believe that pouring 100s of hours trying the 'Vanilla-as-possible' version of the game worth it, especially considering you'd possibly have to start from scratch when moving on to non-Purist CM+EE? My personal opinion on having read the Change-Logs and also having checked all of the changes made in the Alternate Spells module is that it all makes sense, it's not a radical departure from what was but really bringing up lagging parts up to the rest and removing superfluous/dysfunctional CA/Spells in exchange for something that is useful and can create more build options, but that comes from a very good understanding of the original and not-so-good understanding of the sequel - so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the feeling really is that of Streamlining as Flix/ster eloquently put it. - Purist Fix Pack \ Purist Fix Pack (DarkMatters) - all bug fixes from CP 1.60 and EE 3.2, but none of the fan-added content. - Community Patch + Vanilla Drops for Community Patch (all fan-made items disabled) - Community Patch + Enhanced Edition (Flix recommends. I assume this would be the answer to 5a - as the most common configuration?) - Community Patch + Enhanced Edition + Vanilla Drops for Community Patch (does that configuration even work? This seems like a middle-ground as you get all relevant fixes, tweaks and rebalances with minimized 'fan-impact' but you could also enable non-vanilla drops at any time w/o a risk of conflicts I would assume. EDIT: I forgot to mention what seems to be a very useful video of the Installation process for the CP and EE. Youtube// Cheeser: Sacred 2 - 2022 Setup Gameplay related 6a) Regarding this post Is level 200 even attainable? Is experience gain really that slow and punishing? Has this been addressed in either CP or EE to make maxing characters actually doable in a non-life-consuming way? (hopefully, without feeling like you're cheating) I realize this post is from 2024 and the last update of EE seems to be from 2023, but I'm unaware of which configuration of Sacred 2 w/ mods they're talking about. 6b) Expert touch - I'm ashamed to admit, every time I come back to Sacred 2, I've forgotten what this was for and I always have to search for an explanation. Here's the best one I've found: What does expert touch mean? The last conclusion by chattius really simplifies and sums it up, so I'll dare to quote it here: "So my conclusion so far is: Use old regeneration system if you use single combat arts of several aspects in a random order. Use expert touch if you play only one aspect or if you always use combinations. RpH works on all three channels. Which favours expert touch too. If the last Combat Art in a combination is a weapon attack with RpH expert touch really shines." --- Please add things you feel like I might've missed, especially to the gameplay related part which I barely touched - which mechanics are poorly explained and even going through DarkMatters might leave Newbies in the Dark (hehe)? With this first post I really just wanted to get the initial setup of installing and modifying out of the way w/ some good to know 'on character creation' questions answered, which is why I asked about LAN vs SP and added the Expert touch at the end --- Thank you for being awesome and keeping this game and the nostalgia of my childhood alive, please help navigate me and (hopefully) many others back into it easily <3 --- Edited August 15 by xeyp Formatting x3 + missed info & link. 1 Link to comment
SLD 335 Share Posted August 15 First of all I have to protest against the use of invisible ink. Second I fear that this thread can't work. If there is any debate on some of these questions, there are so many of them, the thread will be derailed in so many directions. So should we have any community engagement here we probably have to rip this apart somehow. Now for the answers: 1, 1a and 1a-1: A yes to 1a. General info: Sacred 2 has 3 Game modes on multiplayer servers and one on singleplayer. MP and SP use afaik the same client server system so SP isn't mechanically that much different from MP. The three modes all save the character data on leaving a game and at certain points in time/certain actions ongame/pressing F7. "Campaign" and "Quest" progress is only saved in Campaign games of the corresponding type (at the same time as char data). MP characters save MP campaign game progress yet don't save SP campaign progress and vice versa for SP characters. The characters can enter each campaign mode but the "wrong" one will always start at the beginning. There is no "save/load" feature like in s1 therefore every campaign quest step is permanent for that character for campaign games of that type and difficulty once it is saved. In multiplayer there are also FreeGame and Playerkiller modes that contain all the no-main quests to complete as often as you like. These two modes only save char data and differ only in the obvious "playerkiller" feature of being able to attack other players. In single player a difficulty setting beyond silver can only be chosen if the main quest line of the previous campaign has been completed by that character. For all multiplayer games reaching a certain lvl can also allow a higher difficulty but both methods are usable here. Another thing aboutcampaigns. Unlike S1 the campaigns here only save quest states. Nothing about monsters or items on the ground. And as a reminder all of this is for unmodded games and not using glitches to bypass some restrictions here. 1b) no. 1c-1) yes 1c-2) yes, or you can stick stuff in the chest and overwrite the character. Whatever is more convenient 2) Special mounts are not campaign specific. There is a vendor that unlocks after a quest chain but it's not linked to the main quest line so you can get special mounts in freegame mode etc... 5a) The most common configuration is not playing at all... Sry, but I don't think there "is" much of a community other than the few people on this forum and there are probably even less people interested in playing "multiplayer" as both Sacred titles are not very multiplayer friendly. Mechanically there are arguments for having more than one person in a game but basically none for having two players in close proximity. So only the "roleplaying" and "fun" crowd would actually want to play together. You can probably mod the game and change the mechanics but currently I haven't seen anyone attempt that. 5b) The pfp is probably the closest to a fixed vanilla game, as that was it's purpose. I've never tested it but you already linked info telling me that the goal of the pfp was also slightly missed with the f*ed up xp values. I have no clue what the cm-patch + vanilla drops combo would do in comparison. But those would probably be the two most vanilla options beside actually playing vanilla. 5b-1) The good, bad and ugly of sacred 2 are present in all mod combinations and also in the addendum and D2F. Everything I've seen so far was "sacred 2" sometimes more bad or more ugly also some more good here and there. I feel like there is neither the place to put all the mechanical nuances here nor does it seem worth it trying to explain those to soemone who knows little about sacred 2's game mechanics in general. I can only say that sacred 2 is not a "well balanced" game, and none of the mods/ combinations mentioned objectively purely move it closer to that. They all have up and downsides, things better and worse. For the question wether it is "worth" playing a specific mod combo over another or something as close to vanilla as possible first depends on what you want. If you want the "perspective" of the modders having played vanilla first might help understand the common ground on all mods and their differences better. I can't say for sure what it would feel like jumping into a mod first and then trying others, as I already played the game before the mods existed. But I can say that I've played without cm patch, with cm patch, with D2F, with EE and with the addendum each and in that order and I have never felt it wasn't "worth" looking at all the different options. You know me already so it probably comes as no surprise, that I found the same mechanics to pidgeonhole me into similar strategies across all those mods. They're all different but they're also all still Sacred 2. If I had the opportunity to play the pfp that is basically the one thing I haven't tried yet I'm certain I would. The reason why I can't doesn't make sense to include here either but I just wanted to say, I would consider that "worth" a look at even though I've basically already seen everything including vanilla and pre expansion stuff. You quoting @Flix's opinion on EE and pfp is basically as good as it gets given that he created both. Subjectively calling cm patch, ee and even the alternate spells module "not a radical departure" feels odd. You know me I always get stuck on game mechanics and they all srew around with those to massive amounts. From my perspective, EE for example basically kills all spell based builds(making them significantly worse compared to other builds)... but again details make no sense here. "- Community Patch + Enhanced Edition + Vanilla Drops for Community Patch (does that configuration even work?" I don't know. 6a) Reaching max level takes a lot of commitment. It also did so in Sacred 1. There is nothing new to it and the linked thread contains all the info towards it. The D2F mod massively rebalances that making it a lot easier to reach higher levels. The other mods may do some things effecting experience gain like adding different monsters into the standard mix etc. There are also sometimes "superspawn" versions with more mob density etc. I have never reached max level in any sacred game or mod so far as I'm more of a build hopper that stops playing when it gets to stale but I don't think my gameplay experience would have been any better if I had reached max level. Journey>Destination I guess... 6b) I would agree with chattius conclusion there. But I would never go without experts touch as I would never find a reason to fulfill the condition of "use single combat arts of several aspects in a random order." For what expert's touch does: Normally a combat art only shares regen times with it's own aspect. With Wxpert's touch all CA's are set to regen no matter which one you use but in return there's a generelly lower regen time on everything. That regen buff is properly shown ingame so you can just make one char with and one without to take a look at what it does. With that I mean I'm not aware of any regen time related bugs in the game. I can't help with: 3) 4) would be nice if someone else with experience there could address those. 1 Link to comment
xeyp 47 Author Share Posted August 15 3 hours ago, SLD said: First of all I have to protest against the use of invisible ink. Haha, sorry about that, it's just more of a personal background info that isn't as relevant to the topic so it can be skipped over entirely. That's why I've lowered its contrast. 3 hours ago, SLD said: Second I fear that this thread can't work. If there is any debate on some of these questions, there are so many of them, the thread will be derailed in so many directions. So should we have any community engagement here we probably have to rip this apart somehow. If there is debate, I feel, it would be the best case scenario as there will be more information and points of view to form (at least in my head) a more comprehensive view of the 'landscape' of mods, fixes etc. If this happens I would more than gladly write another post, where I would condense the answers, opinions and etc. I would not try to force a unified opinion because it would be easier for a new/returning player to just read 'this is the particular way in which we all play', rather I want to see what is the general stance of people, if there are certain groups/divisions or if it's a free-for-all, where everyone is running something slightly differently and therefore any multiplayer, should be coordinated. 3 hours ago, SLD said: But I can say that I've played without cm patch, with cm patch, with D2F, with EE and with the addendum each and in that order and I have never felt it wasn't "worth" looking at all the different options. That's exactly the type of info I wanted, thanks! 3 hours ago, SLD said: Subjectively calling cm patch, ee and even the alternate spells module "not a radical departure" feels odd. You know me I always get stuck on game mechanics and they all srew around with those to massive amounts. From my perspective, EE for example basically kills all spell based builds(making them significantly worse compared to other builds)... but again details make no sense here. That's very interesting to hear, as I said I read the change-logs with limited understanding of Sacred 2, so I could only theorize how massive or little some changes are. What is the thing in EE that kills all spell-based builds, if you don't mind elaborating? (you could just give me a link or copy-paste some changes from the change-log that made the most difference) 3 hours ago, SLD said: I have never reached max level in any sacred game or mod so far as I'm more of a build hopper that stops playing when it gets to stale but I don't think my gameplay experience would have been any better if I had reached max level. Journey>Destination I guess... Same on the build hopping! Superspawn sounds neat, a game-wide spawn increase and if you can handle it, it will increase your XP gain, not unlike the Overspawn-ing in Underworld, but the "alt-tabbing" and "suspend process" definitely becomes very annoying, very fast. Massive thanks for your elaborate answer @SLD 1 Link to comment
SLD 335 Share Posted August 15 12 minutes ago, xeyp said: Haha, sorry about that, it's just more of a personal background info that isn't as relevant to the topic so it can be skipped over entirely. That's why I've lowered its contrast. well technically it's still a readable portion, but it's not nice and highlighting it makes it completely invisible so I think there may be better ways to separate the less relevant stuff... 21 minutes ago, xeyp said: If there is debate, I feel, it would be the best case scenario as there will be more information and points of view to form (at least in my head) a more comprehensive view of the 'landscape' of mods, fixes etc. I'm sorry, maybe my long sentences without reasonable punctuation(my greates weakness ) made you see the emphasis on the wrong words. I'm not against debate, but against debating a large amount of different topics in parallel on the same thread. My first answer took me half the day. I was worried(!) the whole time that someone else could answer in between... 26 minutes ago, xeyp said: f this happens I would more than gladly write another post, where I would condense the answers, opinions and etc. I would not try to force a unified opinion because it would be easier for a new/returning player to just read 'this is the particular way in which we all play', rather I want to see what is the general stance of people, if there are certain groups/divisions or if it's a free-for-all, where everyone is running something slightly differently and therefore any multiplayer, should be coordinated. I think, if there are multiple things to discuss the "new player" should have an overview thread to look at, that just contains links to "single topic" debate threads (whith a general description of the linked topic). As opposed to this possible 40 page monster of lots of people discussing random unrelated stuff in chaotic manner... yes I may be dreaming to think that others would hop onto this thread and start talking about the vast variety of things you started with, but if that dream came true it just would end in a nightmare. Which is why I said we might "have to rip this thread apart" should there be lively debate on multiple of those questions. 40 minutes ago, xeyp said: What is the thing in EE that kills all spell-based builds, if you don't mind elaborating? (you could just give me a link or copy-paste some changes from the change-log that made the most difference) As I said, killing here is a "relative" thing. Spells don't get worse but attacks get better. EE and D2F as well raise the attack and cast speed cap from the base game's 150% to 450%. Now at first that sounds like "triple attack speed!", nice buff. But then you realize combat arts have a regen time. To make use of triple speed you now need triple regen... For attacks you can use the modifier "regen per hit" especially for melee attacks but also for ranged attacks at very close range or with an instant hitting blowgun. So basically attack characters get "triple speed" = "triple dps" or however you want to look at it. Spell caster can't use regen per hit and they also can't just use a "lower level CA" because that's where their base damage comes from. So they could only access the triple speed when they somehow also manage to regen their skill three times as fast... A tiny change that causes massive imbalance... 56 minutes ago, xeyp said: Superspawn sounds neat, a game-wide spawn increase and if you can handle it, it will increase your XP gain, not unlike the Overspawn-ing in Underworld, but the "alt-tabbing" and "suspend process" definitely becomes very annoying, very fast. Superspawn is probably one of Flix's inventions and afaik it's just a modified game file with duplicate(I think x4) monster spawn entries. It's a very "crude" implementation as mosters can't just spawn in unlimited numbers unlike the overspawning of caves in uw, the sacred 2 mobs need "space" around them. This also leads to superspawn often interfering with special placed mobs that "want" a lot of space no longer spawning at all etc. That was at least originally a problem with the "Forest Guardian" but I think that might have already been "f(l)ixed" somehow. Yes it's great for xp and "if you can handle it" should not be a problem. Please elaborate what you mean by "alt-tabbing" and "suspend process". I can link neither of these things to "Superspawn" or "Overspawn". 1 Link to comment
xeyp 47 Author Share Posted August 15 51 minutes ago, SLD said: "f(l)ixed" hahahaha 10/10 pun. 52 minutes ago, SLD said: I think, if there are multiple things to discuss the "new player" should have an overview thread to look at, that just contains links to "single topic" debate threads (whith a general description of the linked topic). That's why I said I'm willing to we-write whatever goes in here into a more streamlined 'reference' topic. 53 minutes ago, SLD said: EE and D2F as well raise the attack and cast speed cap from the base game's 150% to 450%. See, I know both about Regen on Hit and this Change, but since there's no Regen on Hit in Underworld and it's not deeply embedded in my mind I didn't connect the dots. Yeah, that definitely is something to revert if possible to restore a more sensible balance. Why do casters always get shafted in Sacred, even the community seems to hate them lol. Spell Damage Cap this, Attack speed increase that. 56 minutes ago, SLD said: Please elaborate what you mean by "alt-tabbing" and "suspend process". I can link neither of these things to "Superspawn" or "Overspawn". The way I know how to do Overspawn in Underworld is to host a server via the GameServer.exe, then open Resource monitor either from Task Manage/Performance > Open Resource Monitor or just Windows Key 'Resource Monitor'. Then I find the GameServer process, tick it so it always stays on top and then when I'm ready to Overspawn I alt-tab from Sacred to the Resource Monitor - Suspend Process on the GameServer, then back to Sacred - and walk in and out of the cave I want to Overspawn, then when I'm ready to go, alt-tab to Resource Monitor - Resume Process and quickly alt-tab back to Sacred. 1 Link to comment
SLD 335 Share Posted August 16 13 hours ago, xeyp said: The way I know how to do Overspawn in Underworld is to host a server via the GameServer.exe, then open Resource monitor either from Task Manage/Performance > Open Resource Monitor or just Windows Key 'Resource Monitor'. Then I find the GameServer process, tick it so it always stays on top and then when I'm ready to Overspawn I alt-tab from Sacred to the Resource Monitor - Suspend Process on the GameServer, then back to Sacred - and walk in and out of the cave I want to Overspawn, then when I'm ready to go, alt-tab to Resource Monitor - Resume Process and quickly alt-tab back to Sacred. Oh cool. I didn't know about that method at all. In original online and lan play the overspawn just happened by hopping in and out of a cave. No task suspension needed. I could however never reproduce this on modern machines. Link to comment
Flix 5,167 Popular Post Share Posted August 19 On 8/14/2024 at 8:49 PM, xeyp said: Community Patch + Enhanced Edition + Vanilla Drops for Community Patch (does that configuration even work? Technically it would "work" but you would be missing all the drop fixes that are present in EE. The file drop.txt was in rough shape originally and all we did in Community Patch was pile on new uniques and sets, which caused reasonable complaints of, "why are we only seeing new items all the time?" The "Vanilla Drops" mod was a band-aid and meant only for the CM Patch. Further investigation was needed. It turns out many vanilla items were barely present in drop lists or not at all. Not cut content mind you, these were fully completed items of all tiers that were just left out or sporadically included. On 8/15/2024 at 8:34 AM, SLD said: That was at least originally a problem with the "Forest Guardian" but I think that might have already been "f(l)ixed" somehow. He was moved from being hand-placed in the persector files to spawning through quest.txt as a questcreature. Generally sectors with hand-placed enemies don't have many enemies from spawn.txt crowding them out. The starting areas around Sloeford are a good example. The Forest Guardian was somewhat of an anomaly among bosses to be spawning that way. 2 Link to comment
xeyp 47 Author Share Posted August 19 Thank you so much for chiming in @Flix, I really appreciate it, especially given how busy you must be! I would like to ask for your very informed opinion regarding a few more questions about the installation / initial set up that have been asked here as well as some final mod ones. Let me re-write them here for your convenience: (But, please feel free to give me the finger if I'm asking too much of you ) 1. There was a vanilla PhysX.pak floating about, but from what I understand any problems and subsequent removal in the Community Patch 1.60 have been fixed given the line in the Changelog "PhysX performance has been enhanced. Should no longer cause performance loss and CTD's." 2. PhysX Legacy Drivers This wonderful Steam Post: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1254244510 Mentions downloading a Legacy PhysX driver. What is your experience / opinion regarding it - does it work, is it needed etc. ? ( this is the link they provided: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/drivers/physx/physx-9-13-0604-legacy-driver/ ) 3. Are you aware if the Graphical issue that affected the transparency of Maelstrom in the Trimmed Elite Textures has been solved? I'm asking about these, because I'd like to bundle everything together and try to put it online somewhere w/ a little readme and images for simplify the installation process. --- Bonus ones: 3. Balance: Community Patch + EE vs PFP. (My motivation behind this question is to help guide new players in deciding which 'iteration' of Sacred to go for, I will be creating a 'Start here' post and streamlining everything there) - Let me ask a general question by quoting something specific - SLD mentioned that raising both the attack and cast speed cap to 450% made spells a much worse choice due to casters still having to wait for Cooldowns, while the increased Attack Speed benefits non-casters via the Regen CA on hit modifier - now I personally currently don't have a full grasp of Sacred 2's mechanics and thus I wanted to ask someone who has worked on both: - How do you feel the balance between the two (CP+EE vs PFP) compares? - What are the most impactful Balance changes compared to Vanilla that you can think of and do you think they fundamentally change the game or if it's something a non-bust Ascaron could've also implemented in theoretical future patches? (I.e. very obvious fixes and tweaks, especially on things that were overlooked not QA'd properly.) 4. This is somewhat related to the last one, let me quote you straight from PFP's description: "Sacred 2 is a game sorely in need of rebalance, and I still believe that the Community Patch + Enhanced Edition is still the best way to experience the game." Could you elaborate as much as you feel comfortable why you believe that? 5. Given this discussion about experience and reaching max level - is there any way / plan for a mod of keeping XP gain the same in the fist 1-120/1-150 levels, but flattening the curve a bit post 150? This is more of a personal question, but I bet there are people like myself who like to bring characters and build to 'completion'. I've not highlighted this question as I don't find it as important as the rest and while I'd love for you to answer it, it probably will have less of an impact on newer players. I also feel like I have taken too much of your time as it is. Thank you again for everything you've done, you're definitely the Pound For Pound best, haha. 1 Link to comment
SLD 335 Popular Post Share Posted August 19 10 hours ago, Flix said: He was moved from being hand-placed in the persector files to spawning through quest.txt as a questcreature. Generally sectors with hand-placed enemies don't have many enemies from spawn.txt crowding them out. The starting areas around Sloeford are a good example. The Forest Guardian was somewhat of an anomaly among bosses to be spawning that way. I guess that change is also what made him "unfarmable" via the cave. 4 hours ago, xeyp said: - Let me ask a general question by quoting something specific - SLD Oh, no! Don't hurt Flix with things that I said! When I talk about balance issues everything always sounds completely broken and that might demotivate him... we need him to create more stuff 4 hours ago, xeyp said: - How do you feel the balance between the two (CP+EE vs PFP) compares? - What are the most impactful Balance changes compared to Vanilla that you can think of and do you think they fundamentally change the game or if it's something a non-bust Ascaron could've also implemented I wasn't asked and have not played pfp, but I did play vanilla so I thought I share my thoughts here as well. "something a non-bust Ascaron could've also implemented" doesn't necessarily mean improvement either. They made the vanilla game after all and all kinds of weird game mechanics decisions. That said the CP was quite a Ascaron style patch I would say. Also the community added items and sets, though they sometimes don't fit something ascaron would make thematically they mostly do so in their stats. So just as with the original game, with CP 90%+ of all set and unique items are garbage you would at best wear when you did not have anything better(and having something better can end up being an amazingly low bar). But to return to the balance part of this some new sets make mechanics like "life leech %" which in Sacred 2 is "take those % of the enemy max life do that much as damage and heal yourself by that amount" more available and in greater amounts. Which is obviously a massive boss killer mod that again shifts the balance towards attacks as it doesn't work with spells. So basically the community items alone are a big balance shift but not directly because they are all busted but because some are useful(and when I say that it always means op ) and the rest are useless clutter. And to make it perfectly clear: That is exactly how ascaron made the original vanilla version and its items as well. It is in line with ascaron style "balancing" and I don't think cp creates more problems it just doubles down on existing ones. So to llne up one of the most impactful balance combos: step1) CP items give higher % life leech. step2) CP skill balance gives "attack" type combat arts more projectiles per use with ranged weapons like energy staves (these combat arts fire all those shots in a quick sequence at a single target). Original proj count 2 now 4. step3) EE maybe increases the 4 projectiles even further when chosing the double hit mods. step4) EE raises speed cap for those combat arts by a factor of 3 relative impact of step1 varies on build but step2 multiplied by step4 already gives a factor 6 on our dps. And remember it is based on the enemies base hp%. So grilling more than 100% of any enemies hp with CP and EE can take far less than a single second. Only with attacks of course... From that example the game may look absurdly broken. But you don't start with such a build and the journey there can still be a challenge, also with certain challenge modes the enemies in EE can be quite op as well. So I don't think the game get's trashed by utilizing all these mechanics to make a great character build. I'm just saying that the disparity between casters and fighters that always existed got a bit out of hand here. I would rather want casters to achieve the same with proper build choices than to nerf all the fighter stuff away again... The addendum actually started playing around with adding fighter specific mod's effects to spells. Yet only at a chance which in my opinion isn't really good enough yet, but sadly dimitrius is missing since january... I hope he's well and can some time return to us. 4 hours ago, xeyp said: 5. Given this discussion about experience and reaching max level - is there any way / plan for a mod of keeping XP gain the same in the fist 1-120/1-150 levels, but flattening the curve a bit post 150? This is more of a personal question, but I bet there are people like myself who like to bring characters and build to 'completion'. I've not highlighted this question as I don't find it as important as the rest and while I'd love for you to answer it, it probably will have less of an impact on newer players. I also feel like I have taken too much of your time as it is. I think this one will be the easiest for a seasoned modder to address. Sadly I'm not one of them The formula that reduces xp gain from monsters past lvl 100 is almost guaranteed to be linked to some easily editable value in balance.txt meaning once someone tells you which value to change you can make that curve more or less behave however you like it. You wouldn't need a "mod" for that, you'd basically create your own. so I hope I didn't make it worse here and that flix will still appear again to answer all your questions from his perspective. I'll just try to summon him through a mirror: Flixmoo! -> || 1 1 Link to comment
gogoblender 3,206 Popular Post Share Posted August 19 1 hour ago, SLD said: . so I hope I didn't make it worse here and that flix will still appear again to answer all your questions from his perspective. I'll just try to summon him through a mirror: Flixmoo! -> || Haaaaaa 🙌… best part of the post 🤭😊🥰 gogi 1 2 Link to comment
xeyp 47 Author Share Posted August 20 Ahh, the smell of fresh, lengthy discussion the the morn... I mean afternoon! And I got a film recommendation from it too! haha 20 hours ago, SLD said: Also the community added items and sets, though they sometimes don't fit something ascaron would make thematically they mostly do so in their stats. This is the type of information and nuance I wanted to capture. I believe that a lot more people that have a vanilla preference would be more okay with this style of item 'invention'. The other being the 'fan fic' type where it doesn't make sense in any way and breaks all pre-existing patterns or in larger volume tries to re-invent the game. 20 hours ago, SLD said: So to llne up one of the most impactful balance combos: step1) CP items give higher % life leech. step2) CP skill balance gives "attack" type combat arts more projectiles per use with ranged weapons like energy staves (these combat arts fire all those shots in a quick sequence at a single target). Original proj count 2 now 4. step3) EE maybe increases the 4 projectiles even further when chosing the double hit mods. step4) EE raises speed cap for those combat arts by a factor of 3 I'll let Mr.Flix go over these changes when he gets the time to respond as I'm really curious about the rationale behind them. 21 hours ago, SLD said: You wouldn't need a "mod" for that, you'd basically create your own. I really hope it's that simple! Link to comment
SLD 335 Share Posted August 20 14 minutes ago, xeyp said: This is the type of information and nuance I wanted to capture. I believe that a lot more people that have a vanilla preference would be more okay with this style of item 'invention'. The other being the 'fan fic' type where it doesn't make sense in any way and breaks all pre-existing patterns or in larger volume tries to re-invent the game. Just go on Sacredwiki, on the Sacred 2 character pages there are links to the cm patch class sets for example etc. You can look at the stuff that was added... 18 minutes ago, xeyp said: I'll let Mr.Flix go over these changes when he gets the time to respond as I'm really curious about the rationale behind them. You expect "rationale" from a pumpkin? Link to comment
xeyp 47 Author Share Posted August 20 @SLD I can go to the Wiki all I like and read everything if I want to, but until I put at least a hundred hours in-game to form a mental model of combinations of skills, equipment modifiers, their accessibility (how they drop etc.) I won't be able to look into a lot of combinations - like how I overlook the increased attack speed cap combined with the regen on hit modifiers. Not to mention I'd need to spend a ton more time in-game a possibly have to learn how to mod the game myself to be able to answer why X and Y thing were done how they were done, instead I believe it makes a lot more sense to ask the people who made and implemented such changes. Not to mention, that I assume, there could be a lot of things under the hood that might've influenced certain choices or etc. Additionally, I think having a less informed opinion is my personal strength in this specific discussion, because I don't assume things and really have a beginners' point of view, which would guarantee I ask questions which might sound obvious to a veteran, but will stump a newcomer or a player that hasn't played in ages. Link to comment
SLD 335 Share Posted August 20 2 hours ago, xeyp said: @SLD I can go to the Wiki all I like and read everything if I want to, but until I put at least a hundred hours in-game to form a mental model of combinations of skills, equipment modifiers, their accessibility (how they drop etc.) I won't be able to look into a lot of combinations - like how I overlook the increased attack speed cap combined with the regen on hit modifiers. Not to mention I'd need to spend a ton more time in-game a possibly have to learn how to mod the game myself to be able to answer why X and Y thing were done how they were done, instead I believe it makes a lot more sense to ask the people who made and implemented such changes. Not to mention, that I assume, there could be a lot of things under the hood that might've influenced certain choices or etc. That was more about the thematical part, wether you approve of items like that being in ancaria etc. 1 Link to comment
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