xeyp 52 Popular Post Share Posted August 15 (edited) Let's say you've recently started a new Daemon... (that's how all good stories start I swear) Upon dropping you into Ancaria, you're equipped with nothing but a single claw. When you attack your first wolf, you will notice something interesting, every other hit is a Double hit also your attack speed is FAST! Woah, the Daemon sure is powerful I wonder what would happen when you find a nice One-Handed sword that deals more damage and you find or buy one. You equip it aaand the magic is gone. there is no Double hit and you're slow as molasses. Then you find a nice dagger, or one of those small axes, let's call the Hatch-lets (hoho) and you equip a nice shield and it's Game on baby, oh yeah! Double Hits, Fast attack speed etc. Then you think to yourself - what if I get two of those, I would surely become deity! So you do... and the magic is now in a superposition, it could work or it could not - at least that's how it looks after you swap a bunch of small 1h weapons in a Dual Wield configuration, but it actually really depends on what you picked! To top all that off, you might've noticed your weapon damage displayed in your inv/char screen was malfunctioning, to the point where switching to an unpopulated / unarmed slot resulted in (at least according to the tooltip) an increase in damage. You then find lonesome bandit to beat to death for science and discover that in-fact the Damage Tooltip is WRONG! In the meanwhile you've been going over wiki's and posts on DarkMatters and nobody bloody talks about a Double Hit (well after this post, there will be one! But this is just a recollection, so shh!) You ask your friend @SLD about it, but his response, you feel, leaves you both more puzzled! Then you go in to test a few things and then you notice it, slap your forehead in disbelief and quickly whip up a post to explain what you do understand and where you're completely lost! You see, you tried the double-hit thing w/ small weapons on your Wood Elf and there were no double hits w/ the same weapon the Daemon would score them. (however, as you'll see in the video linked at the end of this post - the Wood Elf, unlike the Gladiator possibly has a single-swipe animation, explaining why the same weapon doesn't score Double Hits for her) So you're thinking that it's a Daemon specific thing and thus were looking at every single thing with absolute concentration - and you notice that the claws are on wrong, or rather, they are not on at all! They're just floating about, in about the right spot where they should be. So you figure - maybe, just maybe - the Daemon doesn't know she's wearing a claw and you take a closer look at the attack animation wielding just that single claw. So you count, A stab with the claw, a swing and a fist to the... wait a minute a swing - Yep! She's just using the basic unarmed animation, the claw just happens to be there. You see Unarmed combat has a 1-2 combo every other swing, so you jump to your Gladiator you put your Axe down and you witness the same thing - double hit and all! Then, just to be sure (if the daemon is the only one that doesn't acknowledge Claws (which are a Blade weapon) as anything in the slot) you equip a two-handed Fist weapon - voila, same thing to a 't'. Double hits, incorrectly displayed weapon damage in the inventory etc. (and of course the Unarmed (expected in this case) animation upon Left-Click attacking something) Here are some nuances about the Daemon, since I tested this with her more thoroughly (you might want to post about other classes if you have extensive experience) 1. The Daemon has two ways of walking, I'll call them 'Regular' and 'Floaty'. I found that if she's Floaty walking - you're most likely not getting Double Hits. 2. As you saw from the picture, the weapon is just in place, rather than held - if it's held correctly - you're probably not getting Double Hits. I've not seen her wield anything but a mini weapon incorrectly, so you can just write that down as 'Small Weapons Only'. However, there are certain daggers that she holds 'correctly' (even w/ two hands) despite them being one-handed. Like so: (This is a 3 pronged dagger, as SLD calls it) These next two photos are her wielding (but not holding properly!) a single dagger - which gets you double hits (and you can use a shield as well!) And the one after that is her wielding a different dagger in her other hand(which you can't see) resulting in 'properly' gripping the one you can - which gets you NO double hits. Now for the Proper hold / No Double Hits: 3. Another nuance is - dual wield combinations matter. I've only tested around 5, but so far only Claw-Claw combo works - in retaining improper grip and thus Double Hits. As you can see, they aren't exactly equipped. However, this is a very strong combination. You Double Hit often and then sometimes, as you're holding the LMB, you get a Double Hit instantly followed by another Double hit. In that way you get what I call a Double - Double you get 4 whole damage numbers pop up at once, it's great! (would you consider this a Quadruple semantically, I consider it as two doubles! ha) TL:DR on How to know if you're getting Double hits with a specific weapon / combination. - Non-Floaty walk + Small fast weapon(but try 'em all and let us know) + Not holding the weapon Now... what's left is discussing this: Fist Weapons! Would you say she's holding them properly or not? I'd argue that she isn't - and she does get the double hits, not sure anymore about double-double's. (someone could check and post it here, I didn't save or export this character and I can't be bothered to start a new one for a third time) As I said earlier, the Gladiator did get double hits w/ the fist weapons - so either they're broken for everybody or working as intended for everybody. EDIT: After some more discussion w/ SLD I decided to bite the bullet and make a video demonstrating everything but the Two-handed fist weapons, enjoy ( also be prepared to Pause A LOT! ) (P.S. @gogoblender Hope this passes DarkMatters' strict quality guidelines, Mr. Boss-Man ) --- @SLD as I did more testing to write this post I'm not 100% it's a bug but there's also a feature wrapped around it, lol! Edited August 18 by xeyp Clarified section on Double-Doubles, posted video Link. 2 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 16 (edited) Just after making this post and before having to head out to take care of some business I saw that @SLD had replied to me on another topic (very unrelated) that we started this conversation in. He had posted a full paragraph which I'll quote here, that I had quickly glanced over after seeing a shiny link and talk about attack speed. ( I also got excited when I saw talk about things getting weirder ) Thankfully in the later response I mentioned in the first sentence he smacked some sense into me by politely pointing out that I completely neglected the point he made about half damage, he wasn't entirely wrong but I do feel some of it stuck in the back of my head, which is probably why I figured it out in the first place, lol. Here's the original paragraph from master SLD. Quote I noticed something odd with the daemon claws as well. What I noticed is: In the inventory screen the claws only do half damage. So they also only benefit half from infernal power, rings etc. I linked that to "fist weapon" kind of mechanics. You swing both left and right in return, basically you do 2 half hits. Combat Gloves however somehow seem to do full damage even though they hit both left and right. I guessed it's because they are "two handed" weapons, so they are supposed to do more damage. My findings made enough sense to believe it's an odd decision but an intentional game mechanic. On the other hand, the use cases were so niche that I wasn't interested in doing more detailed research. Now you bring up daggers and hatchets and it immediately becomes a lot weirder. At least I've never heard of "hatchet boxing" before Looks like there'd be a lot more mysterious melee attack mechanics to look into. So, thank SLD about everything, even without the tests he had figured it out. --- 10 hours ago, xeyp said: (someone could check and post it here, I didn't save or export this character and I can't be bothered to start a new one for a third time) Okay, that was a lie, but only partially. It's actually really hard to capture a Double-Double as it's gone much faster than I can press print-screen in the dark. These 5 numbers are produced from 3 hits. 1 Double (58-62) (he ran so no cross) followed by another Double (52-70) and then a Single (76). What a Double Double looks like (if I can't manage to capture it) is a small cross. This is due to the pair of damage numbers coming out so fast the the first pair doesn't have time to make space for the second one, so it's split in two and placed horizontally. I can only imagine how mental a high level Daemon w/ maxed attack speed and gauntlets/ Dual Wield claws would look like. Probably like a Gust of Wind from up close. Edited August 16 by xeyp Changed screenshot & its description for better ones. 2 Link to comment
SLD 496 Share Posted August 16 Ok, I did some testing of me own now. I could not find any differences in the daemon walking animation. I did gather a bunch of testing weapons: small 2 space axe and mace, claws like the daemon starter weapon a bunch of different daggers and a few two-handed boxing gloves. I did not manage to get brass knuckles though and as it turned out my "small axe" doesn't seem to be the kind of hatchet you were talking about. Here are my results: The axe, mace and one of my daggers(the 3 pronged one) did standard one swing attack animations each resulting in one hit. The other daggers the claws the boxing gloves and empty handed fists throw a punch combo animation striking once with each hand resulting in two hits. The claw and the boxing gloves cut the damage numbers in the inventory tooltip by half. The actual damage does not seem to reflect that. At least when using infernal power the bonus damage(being a lot larger then the normal weapon damage) is definitely not cut in half. Wether the weapons own damage is cut in half I can't say for sure but I doubt it. So far we have established boxing animation hits twice and inventory tooltip is sometimes erroneously half of what it should be. So boxing basically doubles dps. I added a shield and can tell it has no effect on the hits. Now we get to dual wielding. This one is very interesting. Dual wielding swings each weapon once. As I had no significantly different weapons I can't tell what happens to their base damage. Either they are both added up and then halved or you actually hit with each of them once. The two hits each do full damage ~equal the size of a hit with one of the weapons. But added damage (from infernal power or rings etc) is cut in half, adding one half to each hit. So you effectively "double up" on the weapon damage but not on bonus damage. The tooltip in this case seems correct, showing half bonus damage. Now I tested all the weapons I had in all possible dual wield combinations(including duping the claw). I could not find ANY odd behaviour here. There were no "quadruple" or triple hits. I'm not saying your results were wrong here just that I could not recreate them. So as conclusion from my testing I found: -Shields don't effect attacks. There are: -normal weapons that do single hits -"Fist fighting" weapons that do double hits Items with the same inventory picture seem to always land in the same category though classifications like "dagger" can contain some from the first and some from the second category -some of the fist fighting weapons erroneously claim to do half damage -Dual Wield has it's own damage rules(as explained above) and always hits twice Now I went to a gladiator, as you claimed there were demon specific mechanics at work... Muling the same testing weapons I repeated all the tests. I could not find ANY difference to the above conclusions. Everything works the same. So at this point the double hits seem bugged in the sense that they most likely were supposed to do half damage in return but dont. If they did half damage they would basically work like dual wielding and that would make a lot of sense. If you should be "boxing" with claws is a design question, for daggers "knife boxing" actually is a thing. If the claimed boxing hatchets exist which I fully believe they might, I would believe them to be bugged. They just have the flag for the wrong fighting category. I remember there was the medusa's staff that could be acquired with disarm etc. That one also used boxing animations was giant sized(multiple character sizes in length) and when you dual wielded them(yes they are one handed of course) one was equipped backwards So there is definitively precedent for wrongly flagged weapons. I think the Medusa staff at some point got a fix for its inventory size but afaik it is otherwise still as broken as before. Triple or Quadruple hits don't make any sense at all and if they truly exist(where I have my doubts) they are almost certainly a bug as they can't be "explained" by the animation. So you mentioned the damage numbers popping up at the sides as your last picture shows, but that picture also shows 5 hits meaning you did more than one attack in a row. You already connected this to gust of wind another instance of many numbers "at once"/"in short succession". My point here is that numbers being displaced to the sides was correctly identified by you as a mechanic that starts happening when too many pop up in a short amount of time so that they don't fit in a single column. But my testing showed that constant attacks can be fast enough to just always result in that. Are you absolutely sure that your alledged more than double hits actually did create more than two numbers in one double swing animation? Can you maybe test the double-double under non-constant attack meaning "single click" experiments? I only did "single click" measurements as with my sight the screen otherwise fills up with too many numbers for me to tell how many were "new". So what I want to figure out here is which one is it: -I didn't have a double-double capable weapon combo -Double-double can only happen in a longer attack sequence not on a single click -You got confused by the side numbers and erroneously claimed double-doubles Not sure if all my reasoning is in there somewhere and all my thoughts were fully finished. If not I know you'll find and point them out, I already know you're good at this. Please also gather everything this didn't cover from your first two posts that I should still comment on. I'm just confused by so much text and though I read it once I did not go through it again for a step by step answer as I had to lay out my own research and picking up the quotes from above would have taken me forever. 1 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 17 (edited) On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: So boxing basically doubles dps. If we're talking relative to what the tooltip is saying it's more like a quadrupling - it does double damage and hits twice (but not on every hit) If we're talking relative to a tooltip that wasn't broken - yeah it's closer to double. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: could not find any differences in the daemon walking animation. Can we upload gifs here, it'll be really easy for me to demonstrate. EDIT: (before even posting) I see that we can, I'll try to figure out how to convert a short vid to gif and demonstrate it that way. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: I did gather a bunch of testing weapons Those are a bit touchy, not all double hit. If she's holding it correctly - like she does w/ the 3-pronged dagger -of which I've provided a screenshot- double hits are out of the picture. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: But added damage (from infernal power or rings etc) is cut in half That's good to know, I didn't test any of her support skills in addition to dual wield and the double-hit anomaly. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: There were no "quadruple" or triple hits. I'm not saying your results were wrong here just that I could not recreate them. If your single hit does a double hit, then two consecutive hits generate the double-double (that's why I insist on not calling it a quadruple). It doesn't happen on every swing, but when it does it's great. If your attack speed is high enough, you can do it w/ a single claw and shield. Will re-test just to confirm I wasn't seeing things Also what version of the game are you running and where from - I'm running 2.28 Sacred Gold from Steam, w/ pureHD 1.30 (2022.08.06). Any discrepancies might be coming from a version number. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: Now I went to a gladiator, as you claimed there were demon specific mechanics at work... I have to test the glad / other characters more thoroughly myself. I only tried the two-handed gauntlets, so it's an oversight on my part. I assumed the other things weren't broken on all characters xD how bold of me - because I tried an identical dagger w/ both w. elf and demon and the w.elf did not do a double hit, just the regular animation. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: So at this point the double hits seem bugged in the sense that they most likely were supposed to do half damage in return but dont. I somewhat disagree with the conclusion of how it's broken haha - given that the 'holding' of the weapon itself is broken, I do not believe you should be doing 1-2 boxing combos with these weapons at all. Adding to that the broken weapon damage tooltip I believe the game both things nothing is equipped - hence defaulting to unarmed combat combos and the reduced tooltip (although it's curious why an empty weapon slot shows more damage) and at the same time on hitting an enemy it is absolutely sure there is a weapon equipped so it does proper damage. So in that sense, the double hit should not be happening at all, therefore invalidating 'it supposing to do half damage in return'. So there are no flags for different categories or boxing styles for weapons at all, just a bunch of weapons that don't register as equipped, possibly a different selection for each character. Another example of why I'm almost certain that this is the case - is the following observation - unarmed combat is very fast by default, use the three pronged dagger or any other small weapon that still retains the correct information and doesn't hit twice and look at the attack speed (best done on a new character to avoid max attack speed from gear/skills interfering) now switch to and empty slot, now switch to a weapon you know does the double-hit. This absolutely explains the daemon's mysterious speed w/ the claws, it's just her regular unarmed combat speed. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: they can't be "explained" by the animation. They absolutely cannot, it's a single swing / thrust animation producing two hits - and again she isn't holding the weapon correctly as well and the tooltip is borked. On 8/16/2024 at 11:27 AM, SLD said: one double swing animation I don't think I ever said they do so in a single animation. The double-double absolutely is two separate single attacks, it's just that they happen so quickly esp. w/ a higher attack speed that the numbers pop out pretty much at the same time, but it is two double hits. Sorry if I made it sound like something else. So to make myself perfectly clear the double-double IS a continuous attacking sequence. I paid it attention just for the fact that the two hits roll out so quickly one after another that the numbers don't have a time to go up in a vertical column but instead LOOK like a single 4-digit hit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ @SLD Instead of double-posting and muddying the waters I decided to EDIT this in. Please go back to the first post - I've reworked the Double-Double section a bit. More importantly, I've documented and captioned everything in a video and it's now embedded in the opening post. <3 Edited August 18 by xeyp Link to comment
SLD 496 Share Posted August 18 (edited) On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: If your single hit does a double hit, then two consecutive hits generate the double-double Single swings never double hit. She always swings left and right and that creates two hits. Are you sure we're not somehow talking past each other again? I'm confused. On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: If your attack speed is high enough, you can do it w/ a single claw and shield. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Especially a connection to attack speed only suggests you're misreading the numbers here. On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: Also what version of the game are you running and where from - I'm running 2.28 Sacred Gold from Steam, w/ pureHD 1.30 (2022.08.06). Any discrepancies might be coming from a version number. I am aware of the fact that we have different version numbers but so far we have never seen any different results. I think we are far too early into this to condsider the game version difference as a reason. So far I'm still quite sure we haven't even fully figured out yet how to understand each others experience. On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: don't think I ever said they do so in a single animation. The double-double absolutely is two separate single attacks, it's just that they happen so quickly esp. w/ a higher attack speed that the numbers pop out pretty much at the same time, but it is two double hits. So then "double-double"s are no special mechanic at all and just two single doubles in a row. I was confused because the question of a possible quadruple hit was reasonable: One handed weapon -> double hit dual wield -> quadruple hit? But if I understand you correctly now, we both answered that question with "no!" On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: @SLD Instead of double-posting and muddying the waters I decided to EDIT this in. Please go back to the first post - I've reworked the Double-Double section a bit. More importantly, I've documented and captioned everything in a video and it's now embedded in the opening post. <3 Sorry I really can't do this right now but I already had written this post. I don't want to throw it away now... I'll take a look at the first post again tomorrow... That whole day server downtime put me massively off-schedule... Edit: also missed the long holding the weapon section of your previous post. I'll get back to that tomorrow as well... Edited August 18 by SLD Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, SLD said: Single swings never double hit. She always swings left and right and that creates two hits. Are you sure we're not somehow talking past each other again? I'm confused. Watch the vid. 1 hour ago, SLD said: That makes absolutely no sense at all. Especially a connection to attack speed only suggests you're misreading the numbers here. That's not in the vid, but on my ~20 daemon w/ claw & shield. Since she has somewhat higher attack speed she gets the 'cross' type of damage display. 1 hour ago, SLD said: So far I'm still quite sure we haven't even fully figured out yet how to understand each others experience. Vid, Vid, Vid! 1 hour ago, SLD said: So then "double-double"s are no special mechanic at all and just two single doubles in a row. Yes! That's why I'm not calling it Quadruple! It's one attack / animation causing a double hit and then another single attack / animation causing another double hit. I chose to pay attention to it, because when I was testing it initially it made an impression on me how the two consecutive doubles are so quick that the damage display almost instantly blurted out a small cross of numbers and the first time I wondered what had happened as I had only briefly held my LMB down. (that testing characters had some additional attack speed due to some random gear that had dropped and self equipped + one of the claws had +attack speed on it as well. so that really increased the likelihood of consecutive double strikes (since more atk speed = more hits) and the speed at which the damage numbers came up) 1 hour ago, SLD said: I was confused because the question of a possible quadruple hit was reasonable: One handed weapon -> double hit dual wield -> quadruple hit? But if I understand you correctly now, we both answered that question with "no!" Understandable confusion, now that I think about it - since I did the initial tests and write-up I know what I saw and how it worked and didn't think about any rationalizations, just what I got to empirically. Just want to add that the Dual Wield (claws specifically, since I've not found (though haven't tried to either) another pair of weapons that still retain the Double-Hit 'ability' when dual-wielding) definitely results in a lot more hits and therefore, more double hits. EDIT: Now that I think about it I remember in some other game that dual-wielding and increasing a related skill would increase the chance that one would strike with both weapons at once, it might've even been WoW! If we had such a thing in Sacred 1 and we added it to this 'bug/feature' we would have true Quadruples! 1 hour ago, SLD said: Sorry I really can't do this right now but I already had written this post. I don't want to throw it away now... I'll take a look at the first post again tomorrow... That whole day server downtime put me massively off-schedule... No worries, I was eagerly awaiting you to see the vid, which would clear everything up and then the maintenance/downtime had me like Edited August 18 by xeyp Link to comment
gogoblender 3,293 Share Posted August 18 On 8/15/2024 at 10:24 AM, xeyp said: Let's say you've recently started a new Daemon... (that's how all good stories start I swear) Upon dropping you into Ancaria, you're equipped with nothing but a single claw. When you attack your first wolf, you will notice something interesting, every other hit is a Double hit also your attack speed is FAST! Woah, the Daemon sure is powerful I wonder what would happen when you find a nice One-Handed sword that deals more damage and you find or buy one. You equip it aaand the magic is gone. there is no Double hit and you're slow as molasses. Then you find a nice dagger, or one of those small axes, let's call the Hatch-lets (hoho) and you equip a nice shield and it's Game on baby, oh yeah! Double Hits, Fast attack speed etc. Then you think to yourself - what if I get two of those, I would surely become deity! So you do... and the magic is now in a superposition, it could work or it could not - at least that's how it looks after you swap a bunch of small 1h weapons in a Dual Wield configuration, but it actually really depends on what you picked! To top all that off, you might've noticed your weapon damage displayed in your inv/char screen was malfunctioning, to the point where switching to an unpopulated / unarmed slot resulted in (at least according to the tooltip) an increase in damage. You then find lonesome bandit to beat to death for science and discover that in-fact the Damage Tooltip is WRONG! In the meanwhile you've been going over wiki's and posts on DarkMatters and nobody bloody talks about a Double Hit (well after this post, there will be one! But this is just a recollection, so shh!) You ask your friend @SLD about it, but his response, you feel, leaves you both more puzzled! Then you go in to test a few things and then you notice it, slap your forehead in disbelief and quickly whip up a post to explain what you do understand and where you're completely lost! You see, you tried the double-hit thing w/ small weapons on your Wood Elf and there were no double hits w/ the same weapon the Daemon would score them. (however, as you'll see in the video linked at the end of this post - the Wood Elf, unlike the Gladiator possibly has a single-swipe animation, explaining why the same weapon doesn't score Double Hits for her) So you're thinking that it's a Daemon specific thing and thus were looking at every single thing with absolute concentration - and you notice that the claws are on wrong, or rather, they are not on at all! They're just floating about, in about the right spot where they should be. So you figure - maybe, just maybe - the Daemon doesn't know she's wearing a claw and you take a closer look at the attack animation wielding just that single claw. So you count, A stab with the claw, a swing and a fist to the... wait a minute a swing - Yep! She's just using the basic unarmed animation, the claw just happens to be there. You see Unarmed combat has a 1-2 combo every other swing, so you jump to your Gladiator you put your Axe down and you witness the same thing - double hit and all! Then, just to be sure (if the daemon is the only one that doesn't acknowledge Claws (which are a Blade weapon) as anything in the slot) you equip a two-handed Fist weapon - voila, same thing to a 't'. Double hits, incorrectly displayed weapon damage in the inventory etc. (and of course the Unarmed (expected in this case) animation upon Left-Click attacking something) Here are some nuances about the Daemon, since I tested this with her more thoroughly (you might want to post about other classes if you have extensive experience) 1. The Daemon has two ways of walking, I'll call them 'Regular' and 'Floaty'. I found that if she's Floaty walking - you're most likely not getting Double Hits. 2. As you saw from the picture, the weapon is just in place, rather than held - if it's held correctly - you're probably not getting Double Hits. I've not seen her wield anything but a mini weapon incorrectly, so you can just write that down as 'Small Weapons Only'. However, there are certain daggers that she holds 'correctly' (even w/ two hands) despite them being one-handed. Like so: (This is a 3 pronged dagger, as SLD calls it) These next two photos are her wielding (but not holding properly!) a single dagger - which gets you double hits (and you can use a shield as well!) And the one after that is her wielding a different dagger in her other hand(which you can't see) resulting in 'properly' gripping the one you can - which gets you NO double hits. Now for the Proper hold / No Double Hits: 3. Another nuance is - dual wield combinations matter. I've only tested around 5, but so far only Claw-Claw combo works - in retaining improper grip and thus Double Hits. As you can see, they aren't exactly equipped. However, this is a very strong combination. You Double Hit often and then sometimes, as you're holding the LMB, you get a Double Hit instantly followed by another Double hit. In that way you get what I call a Double - Double you get 4 whole damage numbers pop up at once, it's great! (would you consider this a Quadruple semantically, I consider it as two doubles! ha) TL:DR on How to know if you're getting Double hits with a specific weapon / combination. - Non-Floaty walk + Small fast weapon(but try 'em all and let us know) + Not holding the weapon Now... what's left is discussing this: Fist Weapons! Would you say she's holding them properly or not? I'd argue that she isn't - and she does get the double hits, not sure anymore about double-double's. (someone could check and post it here, I didn't save or export this character and I can't be bothered to start a new one for a third time) As I said earlier, the Gladiator did get double hits w/ the fist weapons - so either they're broken for everybody or working as intended for everybody. EDIT: After some more discussion w/ SLD I decided to bite the bullet and make a video demonstrating everything but the Two-handed fist weapons, enjoy ( also be prepared to Pause A LOT! ) (P.S. @gogoblender Hope this passes DarkMatters' strict quality guidelines, Mr. Boss-Man ) --- @SLD as I did more testing to write this post I'm not 100% it's a bug but there's also a feature wrapped around it, lol! Great video the captions are timely, humorous and informative U a serious other games gamer xeyp, you're good at this gogo 1 Link to comment
SLD 496 Popular Post Share Posted August 19 I did watch the vid and at 0.25x speed with lots of stopping on top. Man is it hard to see anything there, but that's not your fault... Now that I knew more I went into making a new test run. I took a lvl216 daemon and went shopping for test weaponry. I found the dagger type you used in the vid at 0:45+ and confirmed its single swing double hit behaviour. I had an axe that to me looks identical to the 2x2 axe in your vid but I could not reproduce the behaviour. I guess there are two very similar looking ones and mine is just the wrong type. I also got brass knuckles this time and they work exactly like claws on the daemon including the dual wield compatibility. The "walk" and "grip" parts are certainly related to each other meaning her overall body "stance". They are basically 1. the open handed "boxing stance" she uses with empty weapon slots, boxing gloves, brass knuckles and improperly gripped claw and dagger type weapons etc. 2. the closed hands properly gripping a weapon "fighting stance". Stance 1: Always has One click -> two hits ... and the odd dagger(and probably your hatchet) are the only weapons here, where the animation doesn't look like boxing. All exceptions to a double hit I would just guess are missed hit checks. Which also tells us that both hits roll hit chance separately. Stance 2: Always has One click -> one hit. 16 hours ago, xeyp said: 17 hours ago, SLD said: Single swings never double hit. She always swings left and right and that creates two hits. Are you sure we're not somehow talking past each other again? I'm confused. Watch the vid. Niow that I have I know about that dagger making a slicing animation for two hits. Which proves me half wrong. She's boxing but we can't see that 16 hours ago, xeyp said: 17 hours ago, SLD said: So then "double-double"s are no special mechanic at all and just two single doubles in a row. Yes! That's why I'm not calling it Quadruple! It's one attack / animation causing a double hit and then another single attack / animation causing another double hit. Sadly "No!" would have been the right answer. Now it's gonna get confusing I'll get more into that stuff later... 16 hours ago, xeyp said: I chose to pay attention to it, because when I was testing it initially it made an impression on me how the two consecutive doubles are so quick that the damage display almost instantly blurted out a small cross of numbers and the first time I wondered what had happened as I had only briefly held my LMB down. (that testing characters had some additional attack speed due to some random gear that had dropped and self equipped + one of the claws had +attack speed on it as well. so that really increased the likelihood of consecutive double strikes (since more atk speed = more hits) and the speed at which the damage numbers came up) Can we please abandon that "cross" entirely it is completely irrelevant and unconnected to "double hits". With max attack speed and a single unbugged, properly gripped axe I got the "cross" too. It just means: enough damage numbers in quick enough succession that the "single column" display style is filled. The game just creastes displaced columns next to that. It is not tied to a specific game mechanic, it always happens when you create lots of numbers. As I have proven with the axe example it is also no useful indicator in the double hit question as it happens all the time, double hits or not. Attack speed also shouldn't increase the "likelihood of consecutive double strikes". Attack value might but attack speed shouldn't have anything to do with it. As far as I can tell the likelihood of normal(non dual wield) double hits is always 100%. I'll get to dual wield later... 16 hours ago, xeyp said: Just want to add that the Dual Wield (claws specifically, since I've not found (though haven't tried to either) another pair of weapons that still retain the Double-Hit 'ability' when dual-wielding) definitely results in a lot more hits and therefore, more double hits. Ok here we get to dual wielding. As my first test results showed dual wield does hit with left and right wepon once. (I still ignore where the dmg actually comes from. that remains untested here) So like boxing it does One click -> two hits. Wether you use a normal grip combo or the special double claw combo(and brass knuckles(the 1x1 size weapons) work as well) doesn't matter here at all. As long as you only do a single click as I did in my first testing round. If you however hold down the attack vutton there is some odd stuff happening that I absolutely could not measure properly, but you are right that the improper grip combos lead to sick amounts of hits per time compared to the non bugged ones. Wether the attacks here execute faster than the animation or the animation sometimes creates more hits than it should I have no clue. So I can't quantify its variance. I guess however that it is the first thing. You actually attack significantly faster than the animation. So single click->no anomaly but holding down->lots of extra hits. So in the dual wield case we absolutely don't get each weapon "double hitting" making a quadruple but we do get something else that creates lots of hits in quick succession. So I would abandon the display issues as explained above and also the Double-Double term entirely as it is confusing. In all "single weapon scenarious" so far double hits are either "never happening" or "always happening". And in dual wield we have what appears to be the standard dual wield mechanic that is however internally sped up beyond the animation speed for "wrong grip" weapon couples. On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: So there are no flags for different categories or boxing styles for weapons at all, just a bunch of weapons that don't register as equipped, possibly a different selection for each character. Well I disagree on the weapon categories. There has to be a "uses fist fighting animations" category. Brass knuckles, boxing gloves, unarmed combat, the claw weapons and probably the small darkelf "fist blades"(untested!) probably all fall into that same category. And I believe that is intentional. Though it may not make sense to swing left and right fist when you have only one "brass knuckle" or "claw" item equipped I guess the devs where too lazy to make another set of animations for that. You have to remember this classification also leads to different animations with combat arts etc. So the gladiator "attack" CA depends on that item category to decide what animation to use and even how many hits that combat art is gonna have. So in our case the weapons not being "gripped" properly is just an indicator that the daemon got set to boxing mode, becuase she's wearing a weapon that falls into that category. Now your experience with the double hitting dagger and axe landing somewhere in between hitting like boxing gripping like boxing but not swinging like boxing that one is definitely odd which probably means that the category "boxing" is not a single flag. And those weapons "in between" and also things like the "medusa staff" are certainly bugged. But the half tooltip damage is a specific mechanic that appears on all weapons that are fully categorized as boxing except for the two handed boxing gloves and I would say that smells a lot like a design decision. You get two hits with one brass knuckle which is kinda cheating as it should only be on one hand, so they wanted it to do half damage. And they wanted the two handed boxing gloves to give full damage because they are like a two handed weapon here so more damage is ok. The tooltip not= reality problem is of course a bug again. Now what happens with the attack speed when dual wielding fist type weapons that somehow retain their "fist qualities" despite dual wielding, that I would argue is a bug again. On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: So in that sense, the double hit should not be happening at all, therefore invalidating 'it supposing to do half damage in return'. I remain with the argument that double hits for fist style animations should happen, as they match the animation. Also how would you want the brass knuckles' animation to be otherwise. Swinging both arms with only one hit would definitely make less sense. On 8/17/2024 at 9:08 PM, xeyp said: Another example of why I'm almost certain that this is the case - is the following observation - unarmed combat is very fast by default, use the three pronged dagger or any other small weapon that still retains the correct information and doesn't hit twice and look at the attack speed (best done on a new character to avoid max attack speed from gear/skills interfering) now switch to and empty slot, now switch to a weapon you know does the double-hit. This absolutely explains the daemon's mysterious speed w/ the claws, it's just her regular unarmed combat speed. I don't disagree here. The daemon uses her "unarmed" boxing animation with the claw floating in her hand. She also uses her unarmed boxing animation with boxing gloves. The claw however shows the half damage tooltip because it's a one handed weapon and therefore wasn't supposed to do the same damage as the two handed boxing gloves. After all two one-handed claws could be equipped to kinda match the boxing gloves. (Yes I know there would still be damage calculation inconsistencies as dual wield wpuld be worse for added damage than the gloves... But you also have to remember that mechanical inconsistencies aren't that surprising... afaik the dual wield damage calculations changed over the lifetime of the game and as for fist style weapons: there once actually where bugged one handed boxing gloves, looked the same as our current two handed ones ) I hope I covered everything for now. I also hope we got at least closer on our mechanical understanding of the phenomena described and tested on the daemon. I do however believe that we might still be at odds about what we believe to be bugs and what we see in our crystal balls about what the developerss wanted or not I suggest further investigation into other character classes and also combat arts could give us a better understanding of the general mechanisms behind this and maybe also reveal more clues about what the devs might have wanted... For today I'm done testing but I will keep the character and weapons this time so I can continue this later... For now I first want to get through everything else that happened on the forums today as I suspect I'm gonna be quite busy there as well... Definitely looking forward to your response to this to find out how different our views still are 2 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 20 Aye, aye - please continue posting your findings here so we can have a nice fat resource for players who want to 'abuse' this behavior and make some dual-wield claws builds. p.s. I bought some equipment for my lvl 20 Daemon in Silver and noticed the following: - If the first hit is able to kill the enemy, the second one doesn't show up. I think it's obvious, but nothing really should be overlooked as such in this case of unusual behavior. 1 Link to comment
SLD 496 Share Posted August 20 22 hours ago, SLD said: I will keep the character and weapons this time so I can continue this later... So I took a look at the Gladiator again and a woodelf as well. Both have a special double attack animation for some dagger type weapons. That makes more sense than "boxing" with them. And they hit twice as I expected. The Gladiator has a "boxing stance" for claws, knuckles, Gloves, which can be easily seen when turning "compatible" dual wield combos into "incompatible" ones. But holding lmb with a "compatible combo" doesn't lead to super fast hits. They aren't super slow either but he's just no claw king. The non dual wield boxing with aforementioned weapons results in 2 hits as he swings left and right. The Woodelf can't dual wield so the only thing I could test here were claws and knuckles and they were odd. They did only hit once per attack. But when I went unarmed I finally figured it out. The woodelf does only hits once when boxing. Her animation does swing left and right but only one hit appears. Well actually she doesn't just flail her arms around im pretty sure I've seen her throw in a half-hearted kick in between as well. So as a conclusion a woodelf in a fist fight looks like a helpless damsel in distress. 59 minutes ago, xeyp said: please continue posting your findings here so we can have a nice fat resource for players who want to 'abuse' this behavior and make some dual-wield claws builds. but I don't want to test all the other character classes and the combat arts... Lazy>work Maybe someday someone else will do it for us. moo! 1 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 20 1 hour ago, SLD said: So as a conclusion a woodelf in a fist fight looks like a helpless damsel in distress. But give her a bow and she's on all kinds of watchlists, nuclear threat and all that haha. 1 hour ago, SLD said: but I don't want to test all the other character classes and the combat arts... Lazy>work Maybe someday someone else will do it for us. Yes, but when I first encountered this combination of mechanics and bugs it wasn't documented anywhere, so there's a place to start from now 1 Link to comment
Sethi22 175 Share Posted August 21 (edited) https://nightwolfe.proboards.com/thread/2343/attack-speed-info-guide-characters Maybe you'll find something interesting here. Apart from this, I can only tell you about my adventures with her: Battle daemon form sucks. It's animation is way too long, so most of the time, you're doing auto attacks. And at the end of Nio, even with a pretty high Infernal power, that's just not enough. But if you're determined, you'll definitely need Dread, because otherwise you'll be slaughtered pretty fast. Keeping Dread always where you are, and keeping Infernal always on can be quite tedious for a weapon based char with low mental reg. But to make any real use of your auto attacks, you would definitely need Call of Death too. That way, the damage can be ok, but to keep all these up all the time is a real nightmare! They have low durations (1 min I think), so you'll find yourself constantly running out of one and spitting curses left and right... It's really hard work! Just take sword lore, go soaring and divebombing with Aarnum set! That's the clever thing to do! Edited August 21 by Sethi22 Link to comment
SLD 496 Share Posted August 21 7 minutes ago, Sethi22 said: https://nightwolfe.proboards.com/thread/2343/attack-speed-info-guide-characters Maybe you'll find something interesting here. I already linked that in the thread that lead to this one, so we are aware 7 minutes ago, Sethi22 said: Just take sword lore, go soaring and divebombing with Aarnum set! That's the clever thing to do! I prefered using the Piercing crossbow set go into flight mode and use the quick ranged attacks to slaughter stuff. That way being ranged helps defensively and I don't need any of the "dread"ed semi-buffs other than infernal power... Not sure if it runs out of steam at niobium levels... Knowing myself I probably never made it past 110 or so... My tests with the "divabombing" showed a) It takes very long until the combo regen is low enought to use it. and b) you need high level of the landing skill because otherewise the area will be so small that it's almost impossible to hit more than one enemy with it. That and the fact that Infernal Power crashes my current game setup made me stay away from diving into that build. At least this time I didn't start the off topic stuff Link to comment
Sethi22 175 Share Posted August 21 (edited) Oh I didn't know there were previous discussions leading to this, I'm late for the party again it seems. What I wanted to say (and it's offtopic a little I know) is that doing these double hits is just not worth it. It's great at low levels, but later, you'll be going nowhere with it. You need one BIG hit! A good player should be able to finish the game with soaring and divebombing, using the level 1 soaring combo trick. But for the rest of us, there was a clever (?) guy once, who wrote a guide about the crossbow thing. What was his name, now? Hihi! Don't believe everything that idiot said! She's dead now. And I lost her "corpse" too because I overwrote the exported girl. But it was real fun to play! Ok, no more offtopicing now...I'm out. (Sorry Xeyp for messing up your post, but I just got excited when I saw there were talks about her that I missed, and also the beautiful pictures and the vid... I couldn't resist the temptation! She's my favourite char of all time! I'll be silent as a grave from now on, I promise!) Edited August 21 by Sethi22 1 Link to comment
SLD 496 Popular Post Share Posted August 21 4 hours ago, Sethi22 said: Oh I didn't know there were previous discussions leading to this, I'm late for the party again it seems. yeah, we started over there: 4 hours ago, Sethi22 said: But for the rest of us, there was a clever (?) guy once, who wrote a guide about the crossbow thing. What was his name, now? 4 hours ago, Sethi22 said: Don't believe everything that idiot said! Watering down that pure attack build with magic lore and blazing disks... bah! Typical noob hybrid build... 4 hours ago, Sethi22 said: I'll be silent as a grave from now on, I promise! No please, not the grave. You haven't even started your thornbush character yet. 2 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 21 5 hours ago, Sethi22 said: Battle daemon form sucks. It's animation is way too long, so most of the time, you're doing auto attacks. And at the end of Nio, even with a pretty high Infernal power, that's just not enough. How about what I'm running on my 'grown out of a test rig' Daemon, which is Fire Daemon (convert 100% of Phys Damage to Fire) + Infernal Power(scales the pure fire damage much better) + Call of Death? That way you also get a somewhat useful flame wall, albeit still being capped despite scaling from Wep Damage, but it does apply a burn dot so it's not that bad I think. You think that might work? (not to mention the daemon has the highest base strength and that scales fire damage and weapon bonus as well) Link to comment
Sethi22 175 Share Posted August 21 (edited) 5 hours ago, SLD said: Watering down that pure attack build with magic lore and blazing disks... bah! Typical noob hybrid build... Lol, it is! That's the point! It is a guide written by a noob who somehow tried to complete the game with her. What did you expect from a guy who has beaten this game multiple times now, yet had no clue about the damage cap!? It's a disaster! (And I was constantly cannonblasting everything on the cap without realizing that something was wrong! I just kept reading the runes, and reading, and reading... Until I met you who actually thinks when playing and counts too. It's a bit embarrassing, but I'm getting used to it by now!) But I had no other options at the time. I tried the pure attack build, but it died. I tried the pure magic build, but it died. And I tried a bunch of hybrids as well, and I was completely fed up with dying and having to start all over. And this was the result. But it worked! At least I didn't give up on level 110 like the thinking one! Then she died in the Valley somehow. R.I.P. Boriska! Taking out Nio Anducar was quite easy with her, going back out and wanting to get even higher was a bad idea though... 4 hours ago, xeyp said: How about what I'm running on my 'grown out of a test rig' Daemon, which is Fire Daemon (convert 100% of Phys Damage to Fire) + Infernal Power(scales the pure fire damage much better) + Call of Death? It sounds good to me, if you have the patience to wait for that stupid wall to bounce to it's place! I did that too, just found her corpse a little while ago... Even posted it at the damage cap thread. She was low level with like 25K damage of the wall, but Call of death can turn that to hudreds of thousands easy! It's great for leveling, not that good for boss fights I think, if there's nobody left to kill, Call of Death runs out pretty fast. (By the way, hats off for the beautiful vid Xeyp! So that's how you post videos here! Put them on Youtube and link it. Wow I'm really bad at this too. I tried converting my vid into a GIF file and upload it that way, only to find myself limited by the 2MB max size. So in the end I could only post a tiny little vid because I had to downscale it to under 2 MB Ok, I'm learning, I'm learning! Slowly, but steadily. I also learned this summer, that this letter "@" that takes out its thingy, and then takes it all around his head and into his own bottom means I can invite people to talk to me. Nice move, letter @! Looong thingy too... I'm getting better, see?) Edited August 21 by Sethi22 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 21 (edited) Modern vids have a way better compression(encoding) algorithm than gifs do, even when lowering the quality and resolution drastically - so you may find yourself turning a 1080p vid into a much smaller(res wise) Gif and it being 20-50% larger at half the FPS at that. Haha, yeah @Sethi22 but the @ thing is sometimes a little finnicky so you might want to write '@' then press space wait for the little 'auto-fill' window to pop up, then backspace and write whoever you wish to summon. The wall itself is pretty good, I think it might be useful for quite a while if not until endgame itself. Despite the cap, you can most likely crit with it as well, but most importantly it applies and re-applies damage continuously while active and even when the monsters leave they still have a continuous burn effect. In regards to its bounce there are two techniques I like to use. "Click on feet", which makes a little flame dot/circle of fire almost instantly (great for quickly putting it under a boss) or click one 'pace' away (this one needs a little getting used to the range) so that there is no bounce, but upon first touching the ground it explodes into a wall. Additionally, using Fire Daemon, you convert all Phys to Fire, so you're not locked to a single 'hard to farm' sword or any other collection of fire-damage only weapons. So you can choose a nice Claw/double hitting weapon + Shield combo to get even more out of your parry and can even have a second slot for dual claws - dragons for example are very vulnerable when doing dragon breath - so you bait it out, jump under them, drop a fire wall, switch to dual claws and shred them like craazy and finish with Dread and a switch to Shield and Claw at the end of the dragon breath. Don't know how her damage will scale into Niob, but I've not seen anything quite as strong at level 20. EDIT: As it stands with the double-hit even a single claw out-damages a 2h swing, albeit in two swings(if we don't socket extra damage), that is however not taking into account the speed difference between the two weapons and of course we don't have to even mention the apparent advantage of 6 sockets versus 4 sockets in terms of damage, so far on my glad I've not once picked 2h over 1h+Shield because of how the damage influence the two additional sockets have - so therefore with the double hit and the extra sockets you're getting claws that are close to (if not) matching a 2h swing on hit, but you get 2 hits per animation and a lot more of those animations per minute. Edited August 21 by xeyp 1 Link to comment
Sethi22 175 Share Posted August 21 (edited) Nice idea there, It's sure worth a try! After I finish my Gladi, I might have a go myself. I'm honor bound to do the stomping jump test for SLD now, you know. After that, I'm free to do whatever I like. Just be prepared to run out of those stupid spells all the time! If you're ok with casting them constantly, it should work! Edited August 21 by Sethi22 Link to comment
SLD 496 Popular Post Share Posted August 22 18 hours ago, xeyp said: That way you also get a somewhat useful flame wall, albeit still being capped despite scaling from Wep Damage What do you mean by "scaling from Wep Damage" ? There should be no connection between the flame wall's damage and your weapon. 16 hours ago, Sethi22 said: Until I met you who actually thinks when playing and counts too. It's a bit embarrassing, but I'm getting used to it by now!) As I explained before, It was a lot easier to notice when there was no cap and you just started over again, Had your dwarf gone from 95k+ down to below 1k you would have noticed that as well... THough I guess it was fixed before there were any dwarves... 16 hours ago, Sethi22 said: At least I didn't give up on level 110 like the thinking one! The thinking one gets bored when the game always looks the same and there's nothing more to think about. 16 hours ago, Sethi22 said: also learned this summer, that this letter "@" that takes out its thingy, and then takes it all around his head and into his own bottom means I can invite people to talk to me. Nice move, letter @! Looong thingy too... I'm getting better, see?) I am a bad influence, I am a bad influence, I am a bad influence... 15 hours ago, xeyp said: switch to dual claws and shred them like craazy and finish with Dread and a switch to Shield and Claw at the end of the dragon breath. Are you sure the dual claws would be "better"? Remember dual wield has actually different damage calculation making these more frequent hits do a lot less damage each. 15 hours ago, xeyp said: I've not once picked 2h over 1h+Shield because of how the damage influence the two additional sockets have That will get even worse when you find the 4 socketed shield Btw. in cases where it doesn't have to be a claw, there are 4 socketed 1h weapons as well... 15 hours ago, Sethi22 said: I'm honor bound to do the stomping jump test for SLD now, you know. I just had to pull that stomping gladi thread up just to make sure I didn't bind you to some stupid task by accident. Couldn't find out what you might be testing other than your resolve, trying not to eat more than those 30 runes you already had in there I did however find myself over there arguing against the "blood damage" set. I want to point out that was before we found out that it more than doubles damage in niob... So it's quite a bit better than I thought back then. 1 1 Link to comment
Sethi22 175 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 27 minutes ago, SLD said: I just had to pull that stomping gladi thread up just to make sure I didn't bind you to some stupid task by accident. Couldn't find out what you might be testing other than your resolve, trying not to eat more than those 30 runes you already had in there Well I'm testing how much is needed in NIO of course! Because your test ends in platinum. If it was yesterday, I would tell you that my test result would arrive in a few months time, as he's currently level 101 on gold... But earlier today, I've learned the greatest secret of them all, from Xeyp. Now I can Overspawn! So the test results should come a bit sooner.... Edited August 22 by Sethi22 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Share Posted August 22 38 minutes ago, SLD said: What do you mean by "scaling from Wep Damage" ? There should be no connection between the flame wall's damage and your weapon. Mis-spoke I meant Weapon Lore (and all +% Fire Damage sources. 38 minutes ago, SLD said: Are you sure the dual claws would be "better"? Remember dual wield has actually different damage calculation making these more frequent hits do a lot less damage each. Gotta test it out to be sure, but I have to get the daemon to lvl 50 since I plan to pick the Weapon Spec. skill(or Dual Wield) last. 39 minutes ago, SLD said: That will get even worse when you find the 4 socketed shield Btw. in cases where it doesn't have to be a claw, there are 4 socketed 1h weapons as well... Hmm, I know of the sword it's used in my Trade ratio thread. I know of the Battle Mage sceptre as well. Do you have screens you can share of the 4 socketed shield and other 4 socketed 1h weapons, or at least a screenshot of the Base type they 'spawn' on? It would be really useful to have a thread with all of these documented, for people who want to min-max the hell out of their damage. Link to comment
Sethi22 175 Popular Post Share Posted August 22 (edited) I only know about this one. But are there others like this? Things you can actually shop for? Edited August 22 by Sethi22 1 1 Link to comment
SLD 496 Share Posted August 22 4 hours ago, Sethi22 said: ow I can Overspawn! So the test results should come a bit sooner.... but... but, you always play hardcore... I know why this test is gonna end sooner 4 hours ago, xeyp said: Hmm, I know of the sword it's used in my Trade ratio thread. I know of the Battle Mage sceptre as well. Do you have screens you can share of the 4 socketed shield and other 4 socketed 1h weapons, or at least a screenshot of the Base type they 'spawn' on? It would be really useful to have a thread with all of these documented, for people who want to min-max the hell out of their damage. The shield is a unique hield, Sethi was faster and already posted that one. As for one-handers I also only know of the mage wand and the "one-handed two-hander" Sword. So as far as I know you already have all the Base types, and a screenshot of the shield. To "min-max the hell out of their damage" people should already know about the "one-handed two-hander" as it only needs one hand but ptherwise has stats like any two-handed sword including the socket count but also the base damage... 4 hours ago, xeyp said: 4 hours ago, SLD said: What do you mean by "scaling from Wep Damage" ? There should be no connection between the flame wall's damage and your weapon. Mis-spoke I meant Weapon Lore (and all +% Fire Damage sources. I was just confused by your original statement of: "albeit still being capped despite scaling from Wep Damage". And while something scaling from weapon damage and being capped would be a completely new thing, scaling with weapon lore and being capped(like BFG and Dwarven cannon skills) would be nothing special. So guessing you meant weapon lore would not make the original statement less odd. 1 Link to comment
xeyp 52 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 22 6 minutes ago, SLD said: So guessing you meant weapon lore would not make the original statement less odd. True, I'm just new to the cap and still associate mostly spells with it, but at least you're here to set me straight haha 2 Link to comment
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