No Effect of +% Movement Speed?

[Khorath 48]

Hello dear forum-members,

while playing around with the balance.txt I changed the max.speed to 2000 (I.e. 200% instead of 150%). After starting the game later on with my high-level Sera I noticed (just as expected) that all animations are executed a lot faster than before after casting 'Dashing Alacrity' and raising the attack, cast- and movespeed to 200%. So far - so good.

But while the model now attacks very fast (working as expected) and seems to exercise a very speedy run, the actual movespeed (movement over ground) didn't seem so follow the faster animations - at least not to a degree I expected. So I began to test: Run a predefined distance multiple times and take the time with a stop-watch. I started without any equipment no buffs at 100% movespeed: My Sera needed quite exactly 16.40s for the distance.

With equipment and 127.5% movespeed indicated on the characterscreen I tested again - and again my Sera needed quite exactly 16.40s for precisely the same distance. Sure, the animation speed was visibly faster but the movement itself was not.

So I repeated the test with 150% movespeed, 175% movespeed and 200% movespeed. While the animations got increasingly faster - the time needed for traversing the same distance stayed exactly at 16.40s.

For clarification: I am using just the lasted CM patch 1.60 (starting screen says Version 2.65.2 - build 1837)

Did anyone of you notice this behavior? And even more interesting: Is there a way to fix this. This doesn't seem to be intended.

Thanks a lot, Khorath

 

EDIT:

This problem seems to be Seraphim related. I just tested the same run with a Dryad and the +% movespeed on equipment is definitely working. The Dryad got an effecitve  speed increase of about 1.2s with 30% movespeed. She took 17.50s without equipment and is down to 16.30s with equipment. While this isn't anywhere near a 30% speed increase (this is quite probably intended) it is a measurable increase. While using the Seraphim neither equipment nor buffs (Dashing Alacrity) had any measurable effect.

EDIT 2:

I found a possible solution to the problem above. Each creature has a runspeed defined in the creatureinfo.txt. (Sera vanilla runspeed = 190) For player characters this runspeed can be increased with +% movespeed, up to a cap of 300. At least I suppose there is a cap, because if you set runspeed=300 in the creatureinfo.txt for your character, +% movespeed no longer has any effect. If it is set higher than 300 no further speed increase is measurable. As I accidentially changed the base movespeed of my Sera to 300 in the creatureinfo.txt (I had forgotten, that I did this) I created the problem myself. So quite literally: My bad!

Edited October 23 by Khorath

[SLD 523]

11 hours ago, Khorath said:

I found a possible solution to the problem above. Each creature has a runspeed defined in the creatureinfo.txt. (Sera vanilla runspeed = 190) For player characters this runspeed can be increased with +% movespeed, up to a cap of 300. At least I suppose there is a cap, because if you set runspeed=300 in the creatureinfo.txt for your character, +% movespeed no longer has any effect. If it is set higher than 300 no further speed increase is measurable. As I accidentially changed the base movespeed of my Sera to 300 in the creatureinfo.txt (I had forgotten, that I did this) I created the problem myself. So quite literally: My bad!

"Your bad"? No! You're great!
You just told us that creatures have a maximum "actual speed" of 300 which also explains why % increases beyond a certain point have no effect on the actual speed, only the animation. And you figured it out all on your own aaaand shared it with us. As far as I can tell noone knew this before. Thank you!
I had encountered this problem and shared it here but had nowhere near your detailed explanation. Now we have good reason to believe that all the mods that raise the move speed cap to 450% are affected by this "maximum of 300" problem. That would include @Flix's Enhanced Edition and Diablo 2 Fallen mods as well as @dimitrius154's Addendum.

You found something big, thank you for your efforts in figuring this out.

[Khorath 48]

Hi SLD, (actually I wrote LSD, corrected it again to LSD before getting it right on the third try... speaking of Freud... )

thanks a lot for you kind words. I had no idea, that this wasn't already widely known, because you guys are so incredibly knowledgable about Sacred 2. It's nice to be able to contribute something - even if I was a bit lucky here.

I too, had encountered this problem / feature before, when I wondered if I could make 'Dashing Alacrity' work on mounted movespeed. I remember Lindor giving me great advice about how to create specific bonusses, that could do that. While his advice was good, it didn't work out. I figured, that I must have done something wrong... but probably just ran into the cap. If Flix and Dimitrius154 didn't know about the cap, maybe Lindor wasn't aware of it, too.

Edited October 24 by Khorath

[SLD 523]

45 minutes ago, Khorath said:

Hi SLD, (actually I wrote LSD, corrected it again to LSD before getting it right on the third try... speaking of Freud... )

But in that case it would be "high" not "hi"
 

46 minutes ago, Khorath said:

I had no idea, that this wasn't already widely known, because you guys are so incredibly knowledgable about Sacred 2.

Well. it wasn't known to me. And because of the mods it looks like it wasn't known to Flix or dimitrius at the time they made their mods. It is possible that some people already knew about this. "Widely known" is almost nothing here. The wiki is full of false information etc. There are also not so many active members here, so the knowledge that might be somewhere isn't spread that easily/widely anymore.

1 hour ago, Khorath said:

I too, had encountered this problem / feature before, when I wondered if I could make 'Dashing Alacrity' work on mounted movespeed. I remember Lindor giving me great advice about how to create specific bonusses, that could do that. While his advice was good, it didn't work out. I figured, that I must have done something wrong... but probably just ran into the cap. If Flix and Dimitrius154 didn't know about the cap, maybe Lindor wasn't aware of it, too.

I just looked at your discussion there, but you did not report anything on if/how it worked out. I mean it should have done something if you got it to work and then hit the cap. If it didn't work out at all back then, that would still be "unexpected" as mounts don't start out at 300, right?
As for the cap, the thread only aimed at getting the mount to be faster,  wether there were limits to that was not discussed there, so we don't know if @Lindor would have known.

Was fun dissecting all this and speculating on who might have known what at which point in time. In the end all that matters is that we know more now.

[Khorath 48]

3 hours ago, SLD said:

I just looked at your discussion there, but you did not report anything on if/how it worked out. I mean it should have done something if you got it to work and then hit the cap. If it didn't work out at all back then, that would still be "unexpected" as mounts don't start out at 300, right?
As for the cap, the thread only aimed at getting the mount to be faster,  wether there were limits to that was not discussed there, so we don't know if @Lindor would have known.

Was fun dissecting all this and speculating on who might have known what at which point in time. In the end all that matters is that we know more now.

You are absolutely right. I wasn't aware of any possible cap at that time and consequently didn't ask Lindor about it. If I remember it right, the Seraphim tigermounts have a movespeed of 220 in the creatureinfo.txt and the CM-patch cybertigers have movespeeds of 440 - which would already be over the (assumed) movespeed-cap. Since I (visually) liked the non-cyber variants more, but always found them to be slower than I was on foot with DA (something I tested back then the same way I did now) I raised their speed to the same 440 the cybertigers have. I never even thought that these values from the CM-patch could have been to high in the first place. Realising that this didn't do much, I asked Lindor who helped me with the creation of the movespeed bonusses. After I assigned them to the various types of tigers (or at least I hoped, that I had assigned them correctly) - nothing happed. No speed increase was measurable. In the end, after tinkering at bit with various set-ups I reverted the files to their vanilla state... I really should have kept them.

Now, with the power of Captain Hindsight, I assume, that I made the same mistake with the mounts, I made again this time. At first raising the 'base-speed' in the creatureinfo.txt above the 'cap' and then wondering, why nothing worked.

Edited October 24 by Khorath

[SLD 523]

8 hours ago, Khorath said:

If I remember it right, the Seraphim tigermounts have a movespeed of 220 in the creatureinfo.txt and the CM-patch cybertigers have movespeeds of 440 - which would already be over the (assumed) movespeed-cap. Since I (visually) liked the non-cyber variants more, but always found them to be slower than I was on foot with DA (something I tested back then the same way I did now) I raised their speed to the same 440 the cybertigers have. I never even thought that these values from the CM-patch could have been to high in the first place.

So the CM patch team didn't know about a cap either? That goes deep. Look at you, you're more knowlegeable than the best we ever had
 

8 hours ago, Khorath said:

Realising that this didn't do much, I asked Lindor who helped me with the creation of the movespeed bonusses. After I assigned them to the various types of tigers (or at least I hoped, that I had assigned them correctly) - nothing happed. No speed increase was measurable. In the end, after tinkering at bit with various set-ups I reverted the files to their vanilla state... I really should have kept them.

Well, if you really want to contribute more, now that you know about the cap, you could double check Lindor's approach and see if it works up to the cap of 300.
But don't feel pressured into doing so, you already contributed enough for a while

[Khorath 48]

I am curious too, if it could work below a base-speed of 300. Next time I got a bit of time to delve a bit into this, I'll have a look. I'm a bit bugged though, that I scrapped the old files...

[gogoblender 3,338]

On 10/23/2024 at 5:54 AM, Khorath said:

Hello dear forum-members,

while playing around with the balance.txt I changed the max.speed to 2000 (I.e. 200% instead of 150%). After starting the game later on with my high-level Sera I noticed (just as expected) that all animations are executed a lot faster than before after casting 'Dashing Alacrity' and raising the attack, cast- and movespeed to 200%. So far - so good.

But while the model now attacks very fast (working as expected) and seems to exercise a very speedy run, the actual movespeed (movement over ground) didn't seem so follow the faster animations - at least not to a degree I expected. So I began to test: Run a predefined distance multiple times and take the time with a stop-watch. I started without any equipment no buffs at 100% movespeed: My Sera needed quite exactly 16.40s for the distance.

With equipment and 127.5% movespeed indicated on the characterscreen I tested again - and again my Sera needed quite exactly 16.40s for precisely the same distance. Sure, the animation speed was visibly faster but the movement itself was not.

So I repeated the test with 150% movespeed, 175% movespeed and 200% movespeed. While the animations got increasingly faster - the time needed for traversing the same distance stayed exactly at 16.40s.

For clarification: I am using just the lasted CM patch 1.60 (starting screen says Version 2.65.2 - build 1837)

Did anyone of you notice this behavior? And even more interesting: Is there a way to fix this. This doesn't seem to be intended.

Thanks a lot, Khorath

 

EDIT:

This problem seems to be Seraphim related. I just tested the same run with a Dryad and the +% movespeed on equipment is definitely working. The Dryad got an effecitve  speed increase of about 1.2s with 30% movespeed. She took 17.50s without equipment and is down to 16.30s with equipment. While this isn't anywhere near a 30% speed increase (this is quite probably intended) it is a measurable increase. While using the Seraphim neither equipment nor buffs (Dashing Alacrity) had any measurable effect.

EDIT 2:

I found a possible solution to the problem above. Each creature has a runspeed defined in the creatureinfo.txt. (Sera vanilla runspeed = 190) For player characters this runspeed can be increased with +% movespeed, up to a cap of 300. At least I suppose there is a cap, because if you set runspeed=300 in the creatureinfo.txt for your character, +% movespeed no longer has any effect. If it is set higher than 300 no further speed increase is measurable. As I accidentially changed the base movespeed of my Sera to 300 in the creatureinfo.txt (I had forgotten, that I did this) I created the problem myself. So quite literally: My bad!

Bravo Khorah, oh brave Sacred explorer.. thou has brought more secrets of game mechanics!    If this information is helpful, I can offer you access to SacredWiki, do you or @SLD think this could be helpful ?

gogo
 

[Khorath 48]

Hi Gogo,

thanks for your offer. I would gladly update the wiki to include this... but to be honest, I'm not sure that anyone would profit from this piece of information... unless they wanted to mod the game. What do you think?

[gogoblender 3,338]

1 hour ago, Khorath said:

Hi Gogo,

thanks for your offer. I would gladly update the wiki to include this... but to be honest, I'm not sure that anyone would profit from this piece of information... unless they wanted to mod the game. What do you think?

I just remembered this is from modding and the wiki is vanilla … gosh making a wiki for all the mods … we’ll leave that job for the next gen!!

😆😆

gogo

ps I’ll still give you edit powers .. Muhahahah .. no telling where good intentions may flourish 🙏😍

[SLD 523]

22 hours ago, Khorath said:

unless they wanted to mod the game. What do you think?

21 hours ago, gogoblender said:

I just remembered this is from modding and the wiki is vanilla … gosh making a wiki for all the mods … we’ll leave that job for the next gen!!

"wanting to mod" is not required as EE, D2F and the addendum all run into this problem already.
As for wiki and mods, D2F has its own section there already...

Btw the information of an internal 300 movespeed cap would be true for vanilla. Other info that only helps modders is already in the wiki as well. So there is no reason not to add the movement speed cap to the wiki.

Edit: I just remembered the above also shows its effect in the CM patch and that one is definitely heavily represented on the wiki.

Edited October 27 by SLD

[Khorath 48]

I have just checked the modding section of the wiki again. There is already a link to darkmatters.org for a topic called 'increasing character speed'.

Maybe I could link this thread directly underneath. I'll give it a try...

EDIT: Oh... I'm not yet allowed to do so. Maybe someone with the respective security-clearance can establish the link

Edited October 27 by Khorath

[SLD 523]

This belongs on the page "Sacred 2:Movement Speed". Sadly that page doesn't even exist yet.
Creating that would require someone not just with permission, but also the knowledge on how to do it right, so I'm already disqualified
After that one would have to hunt down other places that talk about movement speed like the pages for armour and speed lore skills etc. and link it there.

[Khorath 48]

Ah, okay. In this case a highly competent person is required ... which I am definetly not.

I'll gladly help with the search for links, pages, etc. though.

[Eru 30]

A very interesting find. From looking at the code, the actual cap seems to be 250. So it should affect even more cases.

Although the cap seems to be there for a reason. I removed it and high enough move speed leads to the character being faster than the camera speed (and with it at least some parts of the object generation), I.e. there is short load time when the character leaves the screen, as the camera cannot keep up. And I am not sure how to adjust the camera speed.

I should note that I also modified the EE logic.dll in such a way that mounts benefit from run speed bonuses, so higher speeds are possible. But even on foot the 450% speed cap in EE allows for pretty absurd movement speed.

[gogoblender 3,338]

On 10/27/2024 at 10:28 AM, Khorath said:

I have just checked the modding section of the wiki again. There is already a link to darkmatters.org for a topic called 'increasing character speed'.

Maybe I could link this thread directly underneath. I'll give it a try...

EDIT: Oh... I'm not yet allowed to do so. Maybe someone with the respective security-clearance can establish the link

HI Khorath, I'm sorry about this wait! Happy to see you try for the Wiki, but dang... we missed you in time... I just sent you a pm with your login info, can you please try again on Wiki and see if your edit works?

Welcome to Wiki Edit team!

muhahahah

gogo

[SLD 523]

6 hours ago, Eru said:

From looking at the code, the actual cap seems to be 250. So it should affect even more cases.

On 10/23/2024 at 11:54 AM, Khorath said:

(Sera vanilla runspeed = 190)

That would already put vanilla characters over the cap with movespeed gear, right?
190x1.5=285>250?

Or is the 250 cap a pre bonus one and the 300 post bonus?

[Lindor 548]

On 10/24/2024 at 8:12 AM, Khorath said:

maybe Lindor wasn't aware of it, too.

On 10/24/2024 at 9:49 AM, SLD said:

so we don't know if @Lindor would have known.

I did not, good job

Apart from speedMin and speedMax, there are other values in balance.txt refering to speed:

  SkillAttackSpeedQuot = 5,
  SkillMoveSpeedQuot = 15,
  NPC_speedfac_any = {1000,1200,1300,1400,1500},

Maybe those have something to do with it? Does the cap change with difficulty?

[Lindor 548]

On 10/30/2024 at 10:43 PM, Eru said:

From looking at the code, the actual cap seems to be 250.

On 10/31/2024 at 5:11 AM, SLD said:

That would already put vanilla characters over the cap with movespeed gear, right?
190x1.5=285>250?

Or is the 250 cap a pre bonus one and the 300 post bonus?

There's also BONUS_SPEED_LIMIT, which might increase the cap. Maybe every creature gets a base value of 50, who knows?
Looking at the dll files is hard, someday in the future I'd like to learn it, but until then and since Pesmontis has quit modding and Dmitriy's disappeared, Eru is the only one I'm aware of who might be able to tell.

[Eru 30]

On 10/31/2024 at 5:11 AM, SLD said:

Or is the 250 cap a pre bonus one and the 300 post bonus?

 

On 11/1/2024 at 10:25 AM, Lindor said:

There's also BONUS_SPEED_LIMIT, which might increase the cap. Maybe every creature gets a base value of 50, who knows?

The cap of 250 is applied at the end and it can not be improved. The game actually does the following:

(I) It calculates the move speed factor. Here Skills (Speed lore on foot and riding masterywhile mounted), run speed bonuses (these are normally bugged for mounts), speed debuffs, speed reduction from high level armor (only on foot) and the NPC difficulty factor are taken into account. The result is capped by the speed limits from balance.txt.

(ii) For a given creature the walk and run speed are exported. The run speed is multiplied by the move speed factor, the walk speed is not. Both values are now multplied with a mysterious factor from the function "cTypeMgr::getSpeedFactorHack". I do not know how this is calculated, but it seems to be 1 at least for player characters (at least replacing it by 1 does not change anything in this case).  I am not sure in which situations this factor might  be unequal to 1.

(iii) Both walk and run speed are capped by 0 from below and 250 from above.

 

Note that this is the actual run speed. The animation is sped up (both for walking and running) by the move speed factor.

 

 

On 11/1/2024 at 10:16 AM, Lindor said:

  SkillAttackSpeedQuot = 5,
  SkillMoveSpeedQuot = 15,
  NPC_speedfac_any = {1000,1200,1300,1400,1500},

Maybe those have something to do with it? Does the cap change with difficulty?

They do not affect the cap.

The first one determines how much attack speed you get from weapon skills.

The second one how much run speed you get from speed lore/riding.

For the third one see above. It is a multiplier in determining the move speed factor for NPC's.

 

As a side note: Elite Mounts are way too fast, when removing the cap of 250. I just bought the hippocampus with run speed 500 (in a modified game, where the cap is removed) and it takes ~2 seconds to cross the screen at trackdist 2000.

Edit: Regarding Bonus_Speed_Limit: I am not sure where this is applied. I think it should affect the relevant balance.txt cap. But I need to actually test that.

Edit2: Yes, Bonus_Speed_Limit seems to increase the cap of the speed factor (I.e. the values from balance.txt). At least judging by the tooltip. I only tested it for attack speed, but it should probably also work for run speed, when changing the spez.

Edited November 5 by Eru

[SLD 523]

7 hours ago, Eru said:

As a side note: Elite Mounts are way too fast. I just bought the hippocampus with run speed 500 and it takes ~2 seconds to cross the screen at trackdist 2000.

I am not sure what you meant with this.
Is this supposed to confirm or contradict the rest of your post?
My confusion comes from not understanding what "it takes ~2 seconds to cross the screen at trackdist 2000." means.
Would that be "slow"(confirm) or "fast"(contradict)?

[Eru 30]

7 hours ago, SLD said:

I am not sure what you meant with this.
Is this supposed to confirm or contradict the rest of your post?
My confusion comes from not understanding what "it takes ~2 seconds to cross the screen at trackdist 2000." means.
Would that be "slow"(confirm) or "fast"(contradict)?

Sorry about the confusion. The statement probably needs some context:

The speed is actually very fast, but it still confirms the remaining part of my post. As the Hippocampus only gets very fast, when one removes the speed cap of 250. I.e. with a base run speed of 500, the removal of the cap of 250 is very noticeable (as it should be, when doubling speed). I clarified this in my post above.

The statment was meant in the line of: The run speed of the elite mounts is set unreasonably high when removing the (previously unknown) cap of 250. Only the cap brings them back to a reasonable base run speed.

[SLD 523]

2 hours ago, Eru said:

Sorry about the confusion. The statement probably needs some context:

The speed is actually very fast, but it still confirms the remaining part of my post. As the Hippocampus only gets very fast, when one removes the speed cap of 250.

Ah ok, I did not consider the possibility of removing the cap
Now it all makes sense

[Khorath 48]

On 11/4/2024 at 8:21 PM, Eru said:

Edit: Regarding Bonus_Speed_Limit: I am not sure where this is applied. I think it should affect the relevant balance.txt cap. But I need to actually test that.

Edit2: Yes, Bonus_Speed_Limit seems to increase the cap of the speed factor (I.e. the values from balance.txt). At least judging by the tooltip. I only tested it for attack speed, but it should probably also work for run speed, when changing the spez.

Sorry. I'm afraid I did not understand this completely. What did you exactly mean with 'balance.txt cap'? I know the 'SkillAttackSpeedQuot' and 'SkillMoveSpeedQuot', but they don't seem to be a 'cap' in the way they function...

Is there another cap in the balance.txt?

I'll conduct a few tests with different movement speeds. Judging solely from my perception, I would say the 'effective' speed cap (including Bonus_Speed_Limit) is closer to 300 than to 250. Let's make a few test runs ...

BTW: There are a few ways of moving faster than the cap even in vanilla: Assailing Somersault for example. It let's you jump / skip parts of the map, so that the camera can't follow correctly. It even produces separate explored spots in the fog on the unexplored map rather than continous clearance...

[Khorath 48]

The test results are as follows:

Runspeed = 250 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 100% Movespeed in game: ca. 19,30s for the set distance

Runspeed = 250 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 150% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance

Runspeed = 250 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 175% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance (no further increase)

 

Runspeed = 275 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 100% Movespeed in game: ca. 17,65s for the set distance

Runspeed = 275 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 150% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance

Runspeed = 275 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 175% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance (no further increase)

 

Runspeed = 300 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 100% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance

Runspeed = 300 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 150% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance (no further increase)

Runspeed = 300 (in the creatureinfo.txt ) with 175% Movespeed in game: ca. 16,40s for the set distance (no further increase)

 

This seems to support Lindors thesis, that the cap seems to be increased with the bonus_speed_limit...

Edited November 6 by Khorath
error in the formating