Sacred 2 - Shadow Warrior EE - God Selection

[BorgonVile 35]

So, now that DFallen v16 is only a matter of (pick one from: days, weeks, months, years?) I'm revisiting Shadow Warrior Enhanced Edition.

I have a little question about the right (as in, useful) god selection for my build. Perhaps someone could share their expertise with EE gods.

The build is the cheesiest cheese, shadow veil + allegiance + spectral hand/towers. I have it more or less decided, but I picking between Sakkara, Infusion or Kuan is hard.

Infusion is pretty much only for saving escorts (it makes it almost trivial easier). Does Sakkara scale well into later difficulties?

For reference, here's the build:

>>>>> Shadow Warrior EE <<<<<
hardcore, vitality, expert touch
1. Astral Focus     200
2. Astral Lore      200
3. Concentration    75
4. Hafted Weapons   75
5. Tactics Lore     75
6. Armor Lore       75
7. Toughness        75
8. Constitution     75
9. Riding           75
0. Blacksmith       1

#B Nether All [max] ! accomplice, commander, legion
#B Shadow Vei [%]   ! creep, fade, sinister
#B Reflective [max] ! backlash, antimagic, idol

Spectral Hand [max] ! clout, intent, double?
Rallied Souls [min] - dark, ?, ?
Skeletal Fort [max] ! rapid, arcane, scatter
#C Augmenting [mid] - ensign, healing, leadership
#C Rousing Co [mid]    - war song, impulse, leader
#D Belligeren [1]   - reach, ?, ?
#D Ruinous On [1]   ! getaway, adrenaline, adrenaline

Any hints on the gods (or the build in general)?

 

EDIT: the build was changed and it's completely new version is here

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by BorgonVile
editorial

[Sethi22 279]

Hi there, I've done all this invisible thing with the SW, (although not in EE), my advice would be to forget all the summons, and the hand too, and just focus on the tower. Put all points into Stamina, so after a while you can have two, then three towers out, and do everything in your power to make the tower more deadly, and the reg time go down. They are more than enough, even in Nio, And you are perfectly safe. The reason I say skip the summons is because if they recieve Area of Effect damage, you can get hit by it too, even if invisible. But if you only use the tower and have your shadow veil at 25, you'll be perfectly safe. And you can leave all the defensive skills out completely, because you won't get damaged at all. You can even keep bargaining and blacksmith at level, or do what you like... I wouldn't take hafted, maybe ancient magic instead? But I'm really bad in game mechanics, some wizard will surely pop up after a while, and will have something clever to say. (And if all this isn't true in EE, well, sorry! It works in the original game...)

About the gods: well, choose the Sakkara, no? One more thing to fight! 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2024 by Sethi22

[SLD 524]

1 hour ago, BorgonVile said:

So, now that DFallen v16 is only a matter of (pick one from: days, weeks, months, years?)

Expect months/years. The project awaits the return of Dimitrius154 who has for unknown reasons not logged in since January. 
 

56 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

my advice would be to forget all the summons

I second that one and raise the Sakkara - to the chopping block. The Sakkara is also a summon...
 

56 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

if you only use the tower and have your shadow veil at 25, you'll be perfectly safe. And you can leave all the defensive skills out completely, because you won't get damaged at all.

I am not sure if that holds true for EE. And if it does not, I would not suggest playing anything with shadow veil. If the perfect permanent invisibility is still achievable I would however also agree with dumping all the defensive skills except for armor lore.
 

56 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

forget all the summons, and the hand too, and just focus on the tower.

I would argue the other way around for sticking with the hand that can use %leech and duno the useless tower. In that case, I would also dump tactics lore and hafted weapons and if you really want to use all the skills you plan to upgrade via tactics lore, use the two focus skills instead.
 

1 hour ago, BorgonVile said:

Any hints on the gods (or the build in general)?

The only god power I ever found useful was the reflect one(inspiration?). It is also buffed in EE. But for an invisible build that wouldn't matter either. As you brought up the topic of escort quests, I guess you already know more about this than I do. I don't really play quests and escorts would probably really suck with an invisible character, making them draw all the aggro...

On the build in general, I think I already pointed out most of the things I would do differently. But it's all based on wether it still keeps you perfectly safe in EE. If it does not I would drop the entire invisibility thing and make a proper character.

If you choose to make this character please tell us if the perma invisibility really works in EE and there are no monsters that can reveal you anyway etc.

[Sethi22 279]

Yeah, or the hand... But the tower is lazier, so better in my opinion!  Clicking all the badguys with the hand (or holding down the right mouse button) is tiring, putting the tower down and waiting for drops while watching sports in another window is better! And why would you want leech, if you're invisible?

But be aware: I'm completely unfamiliar with EE! I have no idea if this works or not really, it's up to you to do all the testing!

Edited November 3, 2024 by Sethi22

[SLD 524]

4 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

And why would you want leech, if you're invisible?

Maybe not in the orc cave, but when killing bosses it does a lot of damage...

[Sethi22 279]

Oh, ok, use the hand as well then, I was always too lazy to switch to it anyway, so I gave up on it after a while. But I guess not everybody is as lazy as me. If you like the idea of extra clicking, why not?

So in the end with this build, I didn't care about the hand at all, so no weapon skill for me, no attack rating problem, I stayed pure caster with the tower only. The skills were  Astral lord Focus, Astral Lord lore, Armor lore (just for the reg time), Concentration, Ancient magic, Combat Discipline, Blacksmith, Bargaining, Enhanced Perception, and one point in Alchemy for the mentor potions to last longer with all the + to all skills gear you'll have... I couldn't come up with anything more useful than that. But if you want riding for some reason, go with that, you can't go wrong, (if all this works the same in EE...)

Edited November 3, 2024 by Sethi22

[gogoblender 3,429]

13 hours ago, BorgonVile said:

So, now that DFallen v16 is only a matter of (pick one from: days, weeks, months, years?) I'm revisiting Shadow Warrior Enhanced Edition.

I have a little question about the right (as in, useful) god selection for my build. Perhaps someone could share their expertise with EE gods.

The build is the cheesiest cheese, shadow veil + allegiance + spectral hand/towers. I have it more or less decided, but I picking between Sakkara, Infusion or Kuan is hard.

Infusion is pretty much only for saving escorts (it makes it almost trivial easier). Does Sakkara scale well into later difficulties?

For reference, here's the build:

>>>>> Shadow Warrior EE <<<<<
hardcore, vitality, expert touch
1. Astral Focus     200
2. Astral Lore      200
3. Concentration    75
4. Hafted Weapons   75
5. Tactics Lore     75
6. Armor Lore       75
7. Toughness        75
8. Constitution     75
9. Riding           75
0. Blacksmith       1

#B Nether All [max] ! accomplice, commander, legion
#B Shadow Vei [%]   ! creep, fade, sinister
#B Reflective [max] ! backlash, antimagic, idol

Spectral Hand [max] ! clout, intent, double?
Rallied Souls [min] - dark, ?, ?
Skeletal Fort [max] ! rapid, arcane, scatter
#C Augmenting [mid] - ensign, healing, leadership
#C Rousing Co [mid]    - war song, impulse, leader
#D Belligeren [1]   - reach, ?, ?
#D Ruinous On [1]   ! getaway, adrenaline, adrenaline

Any hints on the gods (or the build in general)?

 

Borgonville your name me think of "balconville"  the picture of all the roads here in Montreal lined up with balconies and stairs spiraling upwards towards their doors  ... Happy seeing your first build being posted! And ... @Sethi22 I "get" the lazy build... that tower sounds awesome ...set it and forget it, kind of like from old war craft... I wanted to do a set and forget build to for Dryad, but too hard.  Yah, leaving a auto attacker while going for a beer... two for one... how refreshingly marvelous

gogo

[BorgonVile 35]

I did play with towers only some years ago but honeslty it got a little boring. I want to make the hand and the summons an active part of my gameplay this time around.

-----

I didn't get far enough to comment on the invisibility yet but I have a little update on the god part.

I checked Sakkara. It is pretty strong in those early levels and lasts for a long time as per EE description. I have no idea if it will stay that way or if it tapers off.

There is one issue however - the model is way too big and gets stuck everywhere. And has the tendency to block the player in corridors.

You can reduced the size in creatures.txt easily enough but the attack range stays the same I think? Not enough modding mojo on me to know how to fix that.

-----

@gogoblender Just to clarify, I appropriated the name Borgon Vile from a dos game called Valhalla/Ragnarok.

[gogoblender 3,429]

17 minutes ago, BorgonVile said:

I did play with towers only some years ago but honeslty it got a little boring. I want to make the hand and the summons an active part of my gameplay this time around.

-----

I didn't get far enough to comment on the invisibility yet but I have a little update on the god part.

I checked Sakkara. It is pretty strong in those early levels and lasts for a long time as per EE description. I have no idea if it will stay that way or if it tapers off.

There is one issue however - the model is way too big and gets stuck everywhere. And has the tendency to block the player in corridors.

You can reduced the size in creatures.txt easily enough but the attack range stays the same I think? Not enough modding mojo on me to know how to fix that.

-----

@gogoblender Just to clarify, I appropriated the name Borgon Vile from a dos game called Valhalla/Ragnarok.

What does the hand look like in battle.. is it exciting animation and its effects on foes? Anyone got a video

gogo

 

ps now you got me going, im gonna have to check out that game.. DOS! 

[Sethi22 279]

2 hours ago, BorgonVile said:

I did play with towers only some years ago but honeslty it got a little boring.

A little boring? I think it's a bit worse than that. It's the most boring build ever! It's the perfect afk build though, to get all the utility skills if you want. But I see now that you probably know more about the game than I do, I just thought maybe the tiny little bit of game knowledge I have collected could be of use to a newbie. But you're no newbie, so you definitely don't need my stupid advices either. Consider yourself on an important mission then, and please report back, if all this invisibility thing is working the same way, as in the original game!

(I want to finish my current projects both in Sacred 1 and 2 before moving on to mods, but I will get there one day!)

Edit: and I didn't say Sakkara to help you in combat, it's just that when you get completely bored and tired of everything, you can fight your own demon when it turns on you. It's one extra thing to kill.

Edited November 3, 2024 by Sethi22

[Sethi22 279]

On 11/3/2024 at 3:46 PM, gogoblender said:

What does the hand look like in battle.. is it exciting animation and its effects on foes? Anyone got a video

gogo

You didn't expect me to do the video myself, I hope? Good. Exciting? Well, decide for yourself. The sound (in my humble opinion) is slightly irritating, but it's ok here. When you get to a point where you start spamming it and this is all you hear constantly... Well, that was absolutely unbearable for me, so I managed to change the sound somehow back in the days. Don't ask me how I did it, because I have absolutely no clue, I have long forgotten everything about it. But it can be done, and it should be done, because spamming it really sucked!!!

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Sethi22

[gogoblender 3,429]

8 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

You didn't expect me to do the video myself, I hope? Good. Exciting? Well, decide for yourself. The sound (in my humble opinion) is slightly irritating, but it's ok here. But when you get to a point where you start spamming it and this is all you hear constantly... Well, that was absolutely unbearable fpr me, so I managed to change the sound somehow back in the days... Don't ask me how I did it, because I have absolutely no clue, but it can be done, and it should be done, because spamming it really sucked!!!

 

You BOSSED this Sethi! Academy Award level timing sir

How is this, errr.... *hand*...modded? (the preposterousness of this CA has me laughing... going around *handing* everything and this is why I LOVE this game so much )... can you make the hand bigger if it gets stronger, does it have potential vs crowds, or do you have to just go around *handing* everyone one by one ...LOL... wheeeeeeeee

I'd LOVE to see this hand Tonking out a Boss!

gogo 

[Sethi22 279]

Well, you need a melee weapon for it, preferably a big one. But we're getting to a point where I think @SLD should take over, because I'm a bit confused now. Sadly, if you even mention Astral Lord to SLD in any way, he can become really angry, and might even eat you up with his pumpkin head, like grass! So beware! He hates the whole aspect altogether... 

But reading the wiki made me wonder how the attack rating scales, because it states, that you don't actually need a weapon skill for it, as it has it's own scaling somehow. This is where I'm completely lost, and he will surely clear it all up, once he calms down...

And can it be used with the lightsaber build, SLD sir? Would the whole attribute scaling thing with the level 10 sword work with it? (And in EE?) Now, I've done it, it's time to flee!Here he comes!

It does not have any Area of Effect, that's for sure.

Edited November 3, 2024 by Sethi22

[gogoblender 3,429]

16 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

 

It does not have any Area of Effect, that's for sure.

That's okay

You still have that really cool sound going every time it slaps someone

gogo

[SLD 524]

7 hours ago, gogoblender said:

How is this, errr.... *hand*...modded?

Why do you host a wiki and then ask others to link its content to you?
 

7 hours ago, gogoblender said:

does it have potential vs crowds, or do you have to just go around *handing* everyone one by one

Somehow I feel I've seen a mod where it can be modded for area damage. But as the wiki says, the base game doesn't allow for that. Sadly I can't remember what mod might have an area option here, or maybe I just dreamed that up
So the hand is quick, but it needs to be used against every single enemy.
 

6 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

Well, you need a melee weapon for it, preferably a big one. But we're getting to a point where I think @SLD should take over, because I'm a bit confused now.

Technically, I think you can get away with any weapon, or even empty handed. But yes, the damage is based on that weapon and that means you want something that does damage there. Now there is a caveat for the base game, not sure if any mod fixes this, but dual wielding in the base game is not a good idea here. The execution time(animation) would become longer, but you still only hit once. So don't use Spectral Hand with dual wield.
 

6 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

Sadly, if you even mention Astral Lord to SLD in any way, he can become really angry, and might even eat you up with his pumpkin head, like grass! So beware! He hates the whole aspect altogether... 

No he does not hate the aspect.
He hates minions in all Sacred games(1 and 2) , because he can kill ten enemies and walk a whole screen, before the minion has decided wether it wants to attack something or not.
He doesn't like using spells in Sacred 2 because the game isn't well balanced around them, meaning the most op offense stats can't be used with them. That alone didn't keep me away from caster characters, but the totem definitely is not a spell I would use. I don't like cooldowns. And on top of that, why place a totem that slowly shoots single enemies in range, when you can just skip the totem, shoot the enemies yourself and move on faster. Also, I can move, the totem cannot. For me this just disqualifies both of these totem type skills, the one from the SW and the one from the Dryad. There are no long, drawn out battles in Sacred 2 where such skills would make sense. 

So now we covered the 2 summoning skills and the one damage spell in the aspect and the reasons why I don't like those.
Then there's the Spectral Hand. It is a nice and different way of building an offensive attack, but you already need the other aspects for the useful buffs, so it is kinda an extra investment to get it into a visible build, that needs/wants the defensive buffs.
And that leaves us with Shadow Veil. That one is certainly an option in all game version where you can become perfectly invisible and when going that route, the Hand is also a viable and efficient choice, but invisibility comes with downsides as well.
First, as far as I know, you have to be visible for the guardians to become vulnerable. If they don't see you they just remain in their waiting phase.
Second, enemies don't aggro on you, so they don't follow you, or make you aware of their presence. Especially for someone almost blind like me that just means that more enemies will be skipped unnoticed.
And third, when wearing a melee weapon you can accidentally end your invisibility with a left click. If you properly skipped all defensive skills and gear mods, this will almost always lead to your demise. Another thing that like the second might effect me more than others, as accidentally clicking on something I did not notice might happen quite often to me. 

So I don't hate the aspect. I just dislike most of the CAs contained in it. There are more such aspects in the game
I played the invisible version back in the day. But the lacking aggro already annoyed me back then. The Spectral Hand on a visible build is something I have actually considered as a potentially quite good CA for mods like EE where you can get high enough cast speed on it, that the single target nature would no longer be that limiting.
 

6 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

But reading the wiki made me wonder how the attack rating scales, because it states, that you don't actually need a weapon skill for it, as it has it's own scaling somehow. This is where I'm completely lost, and he will surely clear it all up, once he calms down...

Honestly I never cared about attack ratings. Usually weapon based combat arts give some attack value bonus, not sure if that is an increase or a flat value. I guess it's the former. Spectral Hand,Magic Coup and Archangel's Wrath might have a flat bonus on top or just a flat bonus, I don't know.
It just doesn't feel like it matters. The combination of "-%opponent's chance to evade" and "+%chance opponents cannot evade"  will solve all hit chance problems eventually. I always go with those things. If you really need flat attack value, you can get that from gear as well. In mods that make enemies really hard to hit that can certainly help a lot.
 

6 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

And can it be used with the lightsaber build, SLD sir? Would the whole attribute scaling thing with the level 10 sword work with it?

Yes, all the attribute scaling mechanics would work with it the usual way. But it probably won't make nice lightsaber sounds when "handing".
 

6 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

(And in EE?)

As the creator of EE at the time of it's creation had no clue on how attribute damage actually worked, I would guess he did not change anything about the mechanic itself. So it should work there as well.
 

6 hours ago, Sethi22 said:

Here he comes!

moohahahahaha

[Sethi22 279]

Ok, thanks for clearing up the mess up I have created again! So back to the original post, taking hafted to 75 is not needed in your opinion? Maybe 1 point in it for the +all skills to do their work? Or you wouldn't take it at all?

Oh, you fooled me BorgonVile with your Leaden Juggernaut ranking! I would love to answer a question correctly one day, and Leaden Juggernauts are my only hope really! Maybe, just maybe I can answer their questions sometimes, that's why I keep trying. I'll get one right, you'll see! But Bvile is an old time lurker Juggernaut, so way above my level! I'm always the one who ends up asking the questions again...

Edited November 5, 2024 by Sethi22

[SLD 524]

4 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

Ok, thanks for clearing up the mess up I have created again! So back to the original post, taking hafted to 75 is not needed in your opinion? Maybe 1 point in it for the +all skills to do their work? Or you wouldn't take it at all?

If you plan on using the weapon with spectral hand and no other way, I would not pick hafted weapons at all.
But if you don't have any better idea what to pick and end up with a bunch of +allskills, which I usually don't have, than you can of course pick anything.
 

7 minutes ago, Sethi22 said:

I'm always the one who ends up asking the questions again...

Yes and those questions and the resulting answers are what lurkers read, so they can appear smarter than you.
Look at it this way:
You are a pioneer! You create new questions and answers where none have been before.

[BorgonVile 35]

Oh my, the discussion has exploded in just a day or so.

 

It's pretty much as SLD said, most I know I read here, some of it written by you Sethi.

And your idea to go stamina was something I didn't consider. I usually go full vitality, because HC mode and whatnot. But yes, why go vitality if nothing woud ever attack me. Duh.

-----

But I'll straighten things out about Sakkara in EE: it does NOT turn hostile when the considerable duration of 90 seconds ends. It just stands there and 1 hit makes it explode.

And so far It's been pretty useful. I mean, after I reduced it's size by 2 (by 2x2x2, as in in every dimension). I honestly think this is a change that could make it into whatever patch or mod, or update is ever getting made.

[Sethi22 279]

19 hours ago, BorgonVile said:

But I'll straighten things out about Sakkara in EE: it does NOT turn hostile when the considerable duration of 90 seconds ends. It just stands there and 1 hit makes it explode.

Oh, that's sad. No more fun fighting it? How dull...

About the tower build and going full stamina, it's of course not my idea, there is a guide about it somewhere... I just don't remember which one it was. But I take the summons out for a walk sometimes, when I know there won't be any danger from Area of Effect attacks, I like how they look and everything about them really, it's just that they're really dumb and slow. (Maybe EE did something to their behaviour to make them more efficient?) I would love to do a proper summoner build one day, but using them as a main source of damage wasn't very convincing, to say the least. I tried the hand too, but got tired of it pretty fast, I've done the invisible build with a bow as well, but in the end the tower was the easiest of them all, and I sticked to that to create my utility character. But using them all should bring some variety to the build, you're right!

Well, if you're serious about the hand, you could do it with a lightsaber, no? A level 10 one, as explained by SLD in his guide here? https://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?/topic/72710-an-easy-character-for-a-returning-sacred-2-player/page/3/

The idea of using a level 10 lightsaber all the way was really something new to me, and so far it's working great in melee. im in Gold with it and it devastates everything. Your Grim resilience gives you willpower, (I assume lightsabers scale with willpower in EE too?) and it's almost too easy, really. A joke.  (You would have to take DW focus of course, instead of riding for example to pump your Grim resilience...) Using that thing ranged, invisible, and all...   Now that would be the cheesiest cheese for sure!

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Sethi22

[BorgonVile 35]

I might do lightsabers but their sound just grates on my nerves.

 

If you want a proper summon build I suggest D2Fallen - 3 summon types on a necromancer. They to pretty well on their own but you can supplement them with buffs/debuffs/damage.

Although new D2Fallen release seems to give me way too many skillpoints, gotta report that.

[Sethi22 279]

Thanks for the tip! I will get there one day, I hope...

Speaking of summons, why no Malevolent Champion focus? For Augmenting Guidon and Reflective Emanation? Both can be modded to help the summons as well. If you don't want the lightsaber, you could take MC focus instead to help the minions? Reflecting minions not your thing?

 

[BorgonVile 35]

Tactics lore gives me modification points for 2 aspects. That includes malevolent. So I will eventually get the mods there too.

 

But I have a bigger problems now

1) I can't combo belligerent valut and ruinous onslaught. I could've sworn you could do that. Jump first, run afterwards... I guess my memory is hazy.

2) And I ultimately can't decide if I want 2 or 5 skellies (or anything in-between). I planned going 5 but then they look ethereal excluding the shields (which are very basic and not pleasant to look at)...

I guess not everything can be so simple as it was in the draft.

 

I'm tempted to go EE with alternate mods and make a melee SW with skellies and the minotaur.

 

Back to the topic of gods, Sakkara is trashing everything those early levels. Skellies are pretty strong too. I wonder if they all get buffed because I run challenge mode.

Edited November 4, 2024 by BorgonVile

[Sethi22 279]

32 minutes ago, BorgonVile said:

Tactics lore gives me modification points for 2 aspects. That includes malevolent. So I will eventually get the mods there too.

 

 

Ok, but what about the level of the spell-buff? How do you increase that efficiently without the aspect focus? Am I too oldschool or nooby to think that's needed?

About the combo, well, it works somewhat here in the CM patch version, (I guess you just want this combo to move faster?) You jump and then you get the shields around you, but no running. If I use it to target an enemy, there's the running, but no jump... Weird.

I'll let you decide on the skellies, I think you had more than enough of my "advices"...

 

Edited November 4, 2024 by Sethi22

[BorgonVile 35]

I just go with what I get leveling normally. I think you can hit lvl 50 CA without penalty at lvl 200?

 

Yes, I get the jump but no running. Maybe the jump+run thing was something I remember from D2Fallen or Addendum. I seriously thought it just worked that way.

 

The skellies will have to wait unmodified for a little while longer. But I think I'll go with 5. Or with 2. Or maybe 4? Three seems like the least likely option.

[gogoblender 3,429]

7 hours ago, BorgonVile said:

 

2) And I ultimately can't decide if I want 2 or 5 skellies (or anything in-between). I planned going 5 but then they look ethereal excluding the shields (which are very basic and not pleasant to look at)...

I guess not everything can be so simple as it was in the draft.

 

I appreciate reading break down on the skellies "look" , very detailed.. I also remember being not so impressed when I first saw them... not enough *substance: 

 

gogo