Mellarion 4 Posted November 22, 2024 gogoblender: Translation from Russian Quote Greetings, dear players and fans of Sacred 2. I have a few questions about the “deep” mechanics of the game, I would appreciate it if someone could answer a couple of my questions. For the most part, they relate to the Shadow Warrior, so I will leave my questions in this section. 1. What type of damage do summoned skeletons do? In the past, I always thought that skeletons do a completely physical type of damage, but after doing some tests, I have discovered the following: a) When skeletons attack, enemies have a “weakening” animation, a secondary effect of magic damage. b) Some debuffs that should affect physical damage do not increase skeletons' damage. 2. There are 2 item modifiers that can increase the damage of summons in general, and skeletons in particular: a) reducing the enemy's physical armor - x% b) reduction of enemy defense (probability of enemy evasion). From the tests I've done, these 2 modifiers hang a debuff on the enemy, but do not affect the weapon attack as a whole (like, for example, the probability of evasion of the enemy - x%, affecting only the weapon attack and calculated with each new blow, or life sucked per blow x%). But, tests have shown that neither of these increases the damage of skeletons (back to question #1, or these two attack modifiers) 3. The ghost hand hybrid martial art must utilize all of the item modifiers related to Translated with DeepL.com (free version (incomplete translation... if anyone here reads pls translate last part Russian message Приветствую, уважаемые игроки и любители Sacred 2. Есть несколько вопросов по "глубокой" механике игры, буду признателен, если кто-то ответит на пару моих вопросов. По большей части они касаются Воина Тени, поэтому оставлю свои вопросы в данном разделе. 1. Какой тип урона наносят призываемые скелеты? Раньше, я всегда думал, что скелеты наносят полностью физический тип урона, но сделав несколько тестов, я выявил следующее: а) При атаке скелетов у противников появляется анимация "ослабления", вторичный эффект от урона магии. б) некоторые дебаффы, которые должны влиять на физический урон, не повышают урон скелетов. 2. Есть 2 модификатора предметов, которые могут увеличить урон призывов в целом, и скелетов в частности: а) снижение физической брони противника - х% б) снижение защиты противника (вероятность уклонения противника) Из проведенных мною тестов, эти 2 модификатора вешают на противника дебафф, а не влияют на атаку оружия в целом (как, например, вероятность уклонения противника -х%, влияющая только на атаку оружием и рассчитывающаяся с каждым новым ударом, или жизнь высасывается за удар х%) Но, тесты показали, что ни то, ни другое не увеличивает урон скелетов (возвращаемся к вопросу №1, либо к этим двум модификаторам атаки) 3. Гибридное боевое искусство "призрачная рука" должна использовать все модификаторы предметов, относящихся к оружейным модификаторам. Может ли призрачная рука вызвать 2 дебаффа из вопроса №2, и если да, то дебафф накладывается после нанесения урона или до нанесения урона? 4. В подсказках написано "броня противника физическая -х%" не влияет на заклинания, но при этом данный модификатор является дебаффом. Означает ли это, что заклинания физического типа не могут вызвать данный дебафф, но если его наложить с помощью оружия, то заклинания физического типа будет наносить больше урона? К сожалению, в данный момент не имею возможности играть и протестировать эти вопросы, может быть кто-то знает ответы. Заранее, спасибо за ответы.
gogoblender 3,406 Posted November 22, 2024 11 hours ago, Mellarion said: Greetings, dear players and fans of Sacred 2. I have a few questions about the “deep” mechanics of the game, I would appreciate it if someone could answer a couple of my questions. For the most part, they relate to the Shadow Warrior, so I will leave my questions in this section. 1. What type of damage do summoned skeletons do? In the past, I always thought that skeletons do a completely physical type of damage, but after doing some tests, I have discovered the following: a) When skeletons attack, enemies have a “weakening” animation, a secondary effect of magic damage. b) Some debuffs that should affect physical damage do not increase skeletons' damage. 2. There are 2 item modifiers that can increase the damage of summons in general, and skeletons in particular: a) reducing the enemy's physical armor - x% b) reduction of enemy defense (probability of enemy evasion). From the tests I've done, these 2 modifiers hang a debuff on the enemy, but do not affect the weapon attack as a whole (like, for example, the probability of evasion of the enemy - x%, affecting only the weapon attack and calculated with each new blow, or life sucked per blow x%). But, tests have shown that neither of these increases the damage of skeletons (back to question #1, or these two attack modifiers) 3. The ghost hand hybrid martial art must utilize all of the item modifiers related to Translated with DeepL.com (free version (incomplete translation... if anyone here reads pls translate last part Russian message Original message in Russian language Приветствую, уважаемые игроки и любители Sacred 2. Есть несколько вопросов по "глубокой" механике игры, буду признателен, если кто-то ответит на пару моих вопросов. По большей части они касаются Воина Тени, поэтому оставлю свои вопросы в данном разделе. 1. Какой тип урона наносят призываемые скелеты? Раньше, я всегда думал, что скелеты наносят полностью физический тип урона, но сделав несколько тестов, я выявил следующее: а) При атаке скелетов у противников появляется анимация "ослабления", вторичный эффект от урона магии. б) некоторые дебаффы, которые должны влиять на физический урон, не повышают урон скелетов. 2. Есть 2 модификатора предметов, которые могут увеличить урон призывов в целом, и скелетов в частности: а) снижение физической брони противника - х% б) снижение защиты противника (вероятность уклонения противника) Из проведенных мною тестов, эти 2 модификатора вешают на противника дебафф, а не влияют на атаку оружия в целом (как, например, вероятность уклонения противника -х%, влияющая только на атаку оружием и рассчитывающаяся с каждым новым ударом, или жизнь высасывается за удар х%) Но, тесты показали, что ни то, ни другое не увеличивает урон скелетов (возвращаемся к вопросу №1, либо к этим двум модификаторам атаки) 3. Гибридное боевое искусство "призрачная рука" должна использовать все модификаторы предметов, относящихся к оружейным модификаторам. Может ли призрачная рука вызвать 2 дебаффа из вопроса №2, и если да, то дебафф накладывается после нанесения урона или до нанесения урона? 4. В подсказках написано "броня противника физическая -х%" не влияет на заклинания, но при этом данный модификатор является дебаффом. Означает ли это, что заклинания физического типа не могут вызвать данный дебафф, но если его наложить с помощью оружия, то заклинания физического типа будет наносить больше урона? К сожалению, в данный момент не имею возможности играть и протестировать эти вопросы, может быть кто-то знает ответы. Заранее, спасибо за ответы. Hi Mellarion, and a goooooooooooooood morning! We are a primary English community, is it possible to try and use translator to place your posts in English? This helps our readers, who are perhaps reading us from cell phones, watches, and other small-screened devices. I tried to translate your entire post in google translate but... Gak! ... I actually got a message saying I had run out of permitted numbers of characters to the rescue... my cuz told me to use Deeple... and voila! it worked! ooooh, almost ... i ran out of deeple power before it could do the last few words... err... ummmm is there anyone here that can complete Mellarions translation, and then copy paste your new addition to his post here so it reads complete in English There's been a few topics running around the forum last few weeks about SW and skellies, hopefully a darling member will show up to greet and meet, and give some feedback on your tests. Thank you for finding us, reading us, falling in love with the game (awww ) and... awesome yer a tester~! Welcome to the forums!! gogo
Mellarion 4 Author Posted November 23, 2024 (edited) Thank you gogoblender. I think I won't have any problems using a translator, I use google services in auto-translation from any language Edited November 23, 2024 by Mellarion 1
Mellarion 4 Author Posted November 23, 2024 Greetings, dear Sacred 2 players and fans. I have a few questions about the "deep" mechanics of the game, I would appreciate it if someone would answer a couple of my questions. They mostly concern the Shadow Warrior, so I'll leave my questions in this section. 1. What type of damage are summoned skeletons doing? Previously, I always thought that skeletons deal exclusively physical type of damage, but after doing some tests, I found the following: a) When skeletons attack, enemies have a "weakening" animation, a secondary effect of magic damage. b) Some debuffs, which should affect physical damage, do not increase the damage of skeletons. 2. There are 2 item modifiers that can increase the damage of summoned creatures in general and skeletons in particular: a) reducing the physical armor of the enemy - x% b) reducing the enemy's defense (the probability of the enemy's evasion). From the tests I have conducted, these 2 modifiers hang a debuff on the enemy, but do not affect the weapon attack as a whole (such as the probability of evasion of the enemy is x%, affecting only the weapon attack and calculated with each new blow, or the life drained per hit x%). But tests have shown that none of them increases the damage of skeletons (back to question #1 or these two attack modifiers). 3. The hybrid martial art "ghost hand" must use all item modifiers related to weapon modifiers. Can a ghost hand trigger 2 debuffs from question #2, and if so, is the debuff applied after damage is dealt or before damage is dealt? 4. The hints say "enemy's physical armor -x%" does not affect spells, but this modifier is a debuff. Does this mean that a physical type spell cannot cause this debuff, but if it is cast with a weapon, then a physical type spell will cause more damage? Unfortunately, at the moment I don't have the opportunity to play and protest these questions, maybe someone knows the answers. Thanks in advance for the answers. As gogoblender said earlier, I am not an English-speaking person, I apologize in advance for grammatical errors in the text.
Maneus 275 Posted November 23, 2024 (edited) Hello, Mellarion. There are multiple bonus types that can affect the opponent's armor or defense value. Specifically, the bonus type BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR_POTENTIAL (shown as Opponent's armor: Element -X%) works in the following way: The first hit from a left-click attack or a weapon based combat art inflicts a debuff. In the unmodified version of the game, this debuff uses the same visual effect as the Weaken (Magic) or Freeze (Ice) effects. The duration is determined by the parameter DurationLongDebuff (in balance.txt), which has a value of 3000 (30 seconds) in the unmodified game. The initial hit (which applied the debuff) does not benefit from the effects of the debuff. But each following attack, even from a spell, does benefit. But it is not known to me if this debuff can be exploited by other players/followers/minions. I haven't been able to do any such tests yet. The effect of the debuff is to remove a percentage from the opponent's (total ?) armor. For example: Let's say that our damage is 10000 (ice) and the opponent has 10000 armor (ice). When the armor value is equal to the damage, then the damage is reduced by 50% (see this post for more information about armor). So, normally, we do only 5000 damage to this opponent. Let's now add Opponent's armor: Ice -50.0% (ValueOfBonus = 1000). The first hit still does only 5000 damage, but it applies the debuff which reduces the opponent's armor to 5000. The damage we do from this point on is 6660. 16 hours ago, Mellarion said: b) reducing the enemy's defense (the probability of the enemy's evasion). While I haven't been able to test this item modifier yet, I assume that it works in a similar way to above. But, reducing the opponent's Defense Value will not affect the damage dealt whatsoever. Defense Value takes part in the chance to hit formula. And having a higher chance to hit also increases the chance for critical hits. So reducing it can help the overall DPS, which is measured over time. 16 hours ago, Mellarion said: 3. The hybrid martial art "ghost hand" must use all item modifiers related to weapon modifiers. Can a ghost hand trigger 2 debuffs from question #2, and if so, is the debuff applied after damage is dealt or before damage is dealt? Yes, "Spectral Hand" can apply both debuffs. The initial hit won't benefit from the debuffs, but any following attacks will. 16 hours ago, Mellarion said: 4. The hints say "enemy's physical armor -x%" does not affect spells, but this modifier is a debuff. Does this mean that a physical type spell cannot cause this debuff, but if it is cast with a weapon, then a physical type spell will cause more damage? The item modifier Opponent's armor: Element -X% cannot be applied by spell based combat arts. But you can apply it with a weapon hit (like Spectral Hand) and then subsequent spells will benefit from the armor reduction. There are several combat arts that have a built-in armor reduction (or even inversion) in spells.txt. But those do not use the same bonus type as Opponent's armor: Element -X% and I don't know how they work (yet). Enough for today Edited November 23, 2024 by Maneus 1
Maneus 275 Posted November 24, 2024 I wanted to add something that I just tested: 1. Cast Skeletal Fortification near the opponent. It starts shooting at the opponent. Without modifications it does only physical damage. 2. Hit the opponent with a left-click attack or with Spectral Hand to apply Opponent's armor: Physical -X%. 3. Now subsequent shots from the (still active) Skeletal Fortification do increased damage.
Maneus 275 Posted November 24, 2024 (edited) On 11/23/2024 at 8:05 AM, Mellarion said: 1. What type of damage are summoned skeletons doing? Previously, I always thought that skeletons deal exclusively physical type of damage, but after doing some tests, I found the following: a) When skeletons attack, enemies have a "weakening" animation, a secondary effect of magic damage. b) Some debuffs, which should affect physical damage, do not increase the damage of skeletons. The combat art definition in spells.txt: Spoiler mgr.defineSpell( "sk_ap_kohorte", { eiStateName = "cSpellCast", fxTypeCast = "FX_SK_KOHORTE_C", fxTypeSpell = "FX_SK_KOHORTE", fxTypeCastSpecial = "FX_SK_CAST_L", duration = 10.000000, animType = "ANIM_TYPE_SM17", animTypeApproach = "ANIM_TYPE_INVALID", animTypeRide = "ANIM_TYPE_INVALID", animTypeSpecial = "ANIM_TYPE_RIDESM06-SPECIAL", causesSpellDamage = 1, tokens = { entry0 = {"et_minion_addreg", 0, 15, 0, 8 }, entry1 = {"et_summon_level", 10, 10, 0, 8 }, entry2 = {"et_summon_soldier", 2000, 588, 0, 8 }, entry3 = {"et_minion_replenish", 975, 25, 0, 72 }, entry4 = {"et_summon_soldier", 1000, 0, 1, 8 }, entry5 = {"et_summon_longsword", 0, 1770, 2, 8 }, entry6 = {"et_summon_soldier", 1000, 0, 3, 8 }, entry7 = {"et_summon_towershield", 0, 1771, 4, 8 }, entry8 = {"et_minion_replenish", 490, 10, 5, 72 }, entry9 = {"et_summon_armor", 75, 55, 6, 72 }, }, fightDistance = 0.000000, aspect = "EA_SK_ASTRALPLANE", cooldown = 15.000000, soundProfile = 0, cost_level = 600, cost_base = 600, focus_skill_name = "skill_SK_astral_plane_focus", lore_skill_name = "skill_SK_astral_plane_lore", spellClass = "cSpellSkKohorte", spellcontroltype = "eCAtype_t_buff", spelllogictype = "ca_ct_boost", sorting_rank = 5, }) The entry et_summon_soldier determines the number of summoned minions and which minion to summon. So the number of minions is 2-4 (depending on modifications) and the minion ID is 588. The creature in creatures.txt: Spoiler mgr.createCreature { id = 588, itemtype_id = 3250, name = "Spell_Kohorte_Soldier", behaviour = "Hireling_brave", dangerclass = 0, groupmaxcount = 4, elite_creature_id = 588, probabilityforelite = 0.000000, rank = 0, tenergy_creature_id = 588, template_creature_id = 1295, livesremaining = 0, unconscioustime = 5, palettebits = "1111111111111111", monstertype = 0, faction_id = 1, equipset_id = 136, modelscale = 1.000000, rise_from_ground = 0, has_corpse = 1, has_soul = 1, can_strafe = 0, } This creature has a "template creature" from which it inherits various bonuses. Here is the template creature: Spoiler mgr.createCreature { id = 1295, itemtype_id = 4839, name = "Template_dead_skeleton_elite", behaviour = "defaultBehaviour", dangerclass = 7, groupmaxcount = 0, probabilityforelite = 0.000000, rank = 0, livesremaining = 0, unconscioustime = 20, palettebits = "1111111111111111", monstertype = 0, faction_id = 19, modelscale = 1.000000, rise_from_ground = 0, has_corpse = 1, has_soul = 1, can_strafe = 0, } The template creature itself is given quite a lot of bonuses, but one of them stands out. It is Conversion damage to Ice +X% Spoiler mgr.addCreatureBonus( 1295, { intensity = 400, bonus = 543, }) The bonus in blueprint.txt Spoiler newBonus = { -- name = "crbonus_dam_phy_to_ice", rating = 0, basedonskill = "SKILL_INVALID", type = "BONUS_CHANNELDAMAGE_CONVERSION", spez = "DMG_PHYS", spez2 = "DMG_ICE", usagebits = 65535, minconstraints = {0,0,0}, difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,1000,2300}, difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,1225,3000}, difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,1500,4500}, difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,2000,6000}, difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,3000,9000}, } mgr.createBonus(543, newBonus); At ValueOfBonus = 9000, the damage conversion is 90%. But the bonus is given at 400 intensity, so the ValueOfBonus becomes 3600, which is still 78.2%. But an important thing to remember is that minions do not have a level cap (actually it is very high) and they can reach quite high levels. For example: This combat art uses the entry et_summon_level to determine the level of the minion. et_summon_level works by using 80% of the character's level as the base, and then adds the value of the entry divided by 10. Let's say that our character's level is 200 and Nether Allegiance is level 98. ValueOfEntry = BaseValue + FLOOR(FinalCombatArtLevel * ValuePerLevel) ValueOfEntry = 10 + FLOOR(98 * 10) ValueOfEntry = 10 + FLOOR(980) ValueOfEntry = 10 + 980 ValueOfEntry = 990 LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(CharacterLevel * 0.8 + ValueOfEntry * 0.1) LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(200 * 0.8 + 990 * 0.1) LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(160 + 99) LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(259) LevelOfMinion = 259 (Reference value is 259) That means the ValueOfBonus from above can become higher and therefore the damage conversion can become somewhat higher too (there are diminishing returns). This explains why the minions inflict the Freeze secondary damage effect, which shares the same visual effect as Weaken (at least in the unmodified game). And it also explains why physical armor reduction is somewhat ineffective. But it needs to be said that I haven't tested the actual damage of the minions. Still thinking about how to approach it. So the above is just a theory. Edit: One of the weapon items that the minions use (it seems) has an item modifier for Deep Wounds. But I have yet to test how items work on creatures. And whether this specific item is actually used - no idea. But, assuming that they can apply Deep Wounds, that would also contribute to the confusion about which secondary damage effect they inflict (Freeze or Weaken). Edited November 24, 2024 by Maneus
gogoblender 3,406 Posted November 24, 2024 16 hours ago, Maneus said: Hello, Mellarion. There are multiple bonus types that can affect the opponent's armor or defense value. Specifically, the bonus type BONUS_DEBUFF_ARMOR_POTENTIAL (shown as Opponent's armor: Element -X%) works in the following way: The first hit from a left-click attack or a weapon based combat art inflicts a debuff. In the unmodified version of the game, this debuff uses the same visual effect as the Weaken (Magic) or Freeze (Ice) effects. The duration is determined by the parameter DurationLongDebuff (in balance.txt), which has a value of 3000 (30 seconds) in the unmodified game. The initial hit (which applied the debuff) does not benefit from the effects of the debuff. But each following attack, even from a spell, does benefit. But it is not known to me if this debuff can be exploited by other players/followers/minions. I haven't been able to do any such tests yet. The effect of the debuff is to remove a percentage from the opponent's (total ?) armor. For example: Let's say that our damage is 10000 (ice) and the opponent has 10000 armor (ice). When the armor value is equal to the damage, then the damage is reduced by 50% (see this post for more information about armor). So, normally, we do only 5000 damage to this opponent. Let's now add Opponent's armor: Ice -50.0% (ValueOfBonus = 1000). The first hit still does only 5000 damage, but it applies the debuff which reduces the opponent's armor to 5000. The damage we do from this point on is 6660. While I haven't been able to test this item modifier yet, I assume that it works in a similar way to above. But, reducing the opponent's Defense Value will not affect the damage dealt whatsoever. Defense Value takes part in the chance to hit formula. And having a higher chance to hit also increases the chance for critical hits. So reducing it can help the overall DPS, which is measured over time. Yes, "Spectral Hand" can apply both debuffs. The initial hit won't benefit from the debuffs, but any following attacks will. The item modifier Opponent's armor: Element -X% cannot be applied by spell based combat arts. But you can apply it with a weapon hit (like Spectral Hand) and then subsequent spells will benefit from the armor reduction. There are several combat arts that have a built-in armor reduction (or even inversion) in spells.txt. But those do not use the same bonus type as Opponent's armor: Element -X% and I don't know how they work (yet). Enough for today Thanks Maneus! Your late hours here trial and erroring all the formulaes in all their permutations has released *The great Flow* sounds cool right? all that to say... thank yooooooooooooooooo gogo 1
Mellarion 4 Author Posted November 25, 2024 Hello Maneus. Thank you for such a detailed answer, to be honest, I didn't think that anyone knew the deep mechanics of this game so well. You have pleasantly surprised me. (I don't know if there is such a formulation in English, but I hope the general meaning of my phrase will be clear) 1. I'm playing with CM and EE mods. I think what you said was not changed from vanilla. 2. "But I don't know if other players/followers/minions can use this debuff. I haven't been able to run any such tests yet." The phrase "debuff" implies that the spell affects the "enemy", accordingly, everyone who interacts with the "enemy" should benefit from the debuff. Not by me, but by another person, tests were conducted with the Dryad, her "black curse with the enemy's physical armor mod -x%" and the dying animus, and there the tests showed that this debuff works, and the damage from the summoning increases under the action of the debuff. But, I know that spell modifiers and item modifiers have different mechanics. Again, I don't have the opportunity to check this right now, as well as to log into the game in general (business trip) 3. "The debuff effect is to remove a certain percentage from the (total ?) the enemy's armor."- Most likely, the percentage of "white" armor is removed, if you know what I mean. 4. "Although I haven't been able to test this item modifier yet, I assume it works similarly to the previous one. But reducing the value of the enemy's defense will not affect the damage done in any way. The protection value is involved in the hit probability formula. And a higher hit chance also increases the chance of critical hits. Therefore, reducing it can help the overall DPS, which is measured over time." - Yes, I understand how it works, apparently I expressed my thought incorrectly. Reducing the enemy's defense by x% can raise DPS, not damage, due to the higher frequency of hits of summoned creatures. 5. The "Enemy Weapon: Element -X%" item modifier cannot be used by spell-based martial arts. But you can apply it with a weapon strike (for example, Spectral Hand), and then subsequent spells will benefit from armor reduction." Very interesting. Potentially, I know the character who will benefit the most from this information, and most likely will become the top 1 DPS, beating BFG Seraphim. 1
Mellarion 4 Author Posted November 25, 2024 20 hours ago, Maneus said: The combat art definition in spells.txt: Reveal hidden contents mgr.defineSpell( "sk_ap_kohorte", { eiStateName = "cSpellCast", fxTypeCast = "FX_SK_KOHORTE_C", fxTypeSpell = "FX_SK_KOHORTE", fxTypeCastSpecial = "FX_SK_CAST_L", duration = 10.000000, animType = "ANIM_TYPE_SM17", animTypeApproach = "ANIM_TYPE_INVALID", animTypeRide = "ANIM_TYPE_INVALID", animTypeSpecial = "ANIM_TYPE_RIDESM06-SPECIAL", causesSpellDamage = 1, tokens = { entry0 = {"et_minion_addreg", 0, 15, 0, 8 }, entry1 = {"et_summon_level", 10, 10, 0, 8 }, entry2 = {"et_summon_soldier", 2000, 588, 0, 8 }, entry3 = {"et_minion_replenish", 975, 25, 0, 72 }, entry4 = {"et_summon_soldier", 1000, 0, 1, 8 }, entry5 = {"et_summon_longsword", 0, 1770, 2, 8 }, entry6 = {"et_summon_soldier", 1000, 0, 3, 8 }, entry7 = {"et_summon_towershield", 0, 1771, 4, 8 }, entry8 = {"et_minion_replenish", 490, 10, 5, 72 }, entry9 = {"et_summon_armor", 75, 55, 6, 72 }, }, fightDistance = 0.000000, aspect = "EA_SK_ASTRALPLANE", cooldown = 15.000000, soundProfile = 0, cost_level = 600, cost_base = 600, focus_skill_name = "skill_SK_astral_plane_focus", lore_skill_name = "skill_SK_astral_plane_lore", spellClass = "cSpellSkKohorte", spellcontroltype = "eCAtype_t_buff", spelllogictype = "ca_ct_boost", sorting_rank = 5, }) The entry et_summon_soldier determines the number of summoned minions and which minion to summon. So the number of minions is 2-4 (depending on modifications) and the minion ID is 588. The creature in creatures.txt: Reveal hidden contents mgr.createCreature { id = 588, itemtype_id = 3250, name = "Spell_Kohorte_Soldier", behaviour = "Hireling_brave", dangerclass = 0, groupmaxcount = 4, elite_creature_id = 588, probabilityforelite = 0.000000, rank = 0, tenergy_creature_id = 588, template_creature_id = 1295, livesremaining = 0, unconscioustime = 5, palettebits = "1111111111111111", monstertype = 0, faction_id = 1, equipset_id = 136, modelscale = 1.000000, rise_from_ground = 0, has_corpse = 1, has_soul = 1, can_strafe = 0, } This creature has a "template creature" from which it inherits various bonuses. Here is the template creature: Reveal hidden contents mgr.createCreature { id = 1295, itemtype_id = 4839, name = "Template_dead_skeleton_elite", behaviour = "defaultBehaviour", dangerclass = 7, groupmaxcount = 0, probabilityforelite = 0.000000, rank = 0, livesremaining = 0, unconscioustime = 20, palettebits = "1111111111111111", monstertype = 0, faction_id = 19, modelscale = 1.000000, rise_from_ground = 0, has_corpse = 1, has_soul = 1, can_strafe = 0, } The template creature itself is given quite a lot of bonuses, but one of them stands out. It is Conversion damage to Ice +X% Reveal hidden contents mgr.addCreatureBonus( 1295, { intensity = 400, bonus = 543, }) The bonus in blueprint.txt Reveal hidden contents newBonus = { -- name = "crbonus_dam_phy_to_ice", rating = 0, basedonskill = "SKILL_INVALID", type = "BONUS_CHANNELDAMAGE_CONVERSION", spez = "DMG_PHYS", spez2 = "DMG_ICE", usagebits = 65535, minconstraints = {0,0,0}, difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,1000,2300}, difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,1225,3000}, difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,1500,4500}, difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,2000,6000}, difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,3000,9000}, } mgr.createBonus(543, newBonus); At ValueOfBonus = 9000, the damage conversion is 90%. But the bonus is given at 400 intensity, so the ValueOfBonus becomes 3600, which is still 78.2%. But an important thing to remember is that minions do not have a level cap (actually it is very high) and they can reach quite high levels. For example: This combat art uses the entry et_summon_level to determine the level of the minion. et_summon_level works by using 80% of the character's level as the base, and then adds the value of the entry divided by 10. Let's say that our character's level is 200 and Nether Allegiance is level 98. ValueOfEntry = BaseValue + FLOOR(FinalCombatArtLevel * ValuePerLevel) ValueOfEntry = 10 + FLOOR(98 * 10) ValueOfEntry = 10 + FLOOR(980) ValueOfEntry = 10 + 980 ValueOfEntry = 990 LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(CharacterLevel * 0.8 + ValueOfEntry * 0.1) LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(200 * 0.8 + 990 * 0.1) LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(160 + 99) LevelOfMinion = FLOOR(259) LevelOfMinion = 259 (Reference value is 259) That means the ValueOfBonus from above can become higher and therefore the damage conversion can become somewhat higher too (there are diminishing returns). This explains why the minions inflict the Freeze secondary damage effect, which shares the same visual effect as Weaken (at least in the unmodified game). And it also explains why physical armor reduction is somewhat ineffective. But it needs to be said that I haven't tested the actual damage of the minions. Still thinking about how to approach it. So the above is just a theory. Edit: One of the weapon items that the minions use (it seems) has an item modifier for Deep Wounds. But I have yet to test how items work on creatures. And whether this specific item is actually used - no idea. But, assuming that they can apply Deep Wounds, that would also contribute to the confusion about which secondary damage effect they inflict (Freeze or Weaken). It is very interesting. The "ice" elemental damage is suitable for the astral lord branch as a whole, there are many new questions here. Also, I would like to note that debuffs like "burn" or "freeze" are caused by a large amount of damage. I think this rule also applies to deep wounds caused by physical damage. Accordingly, if, as you say, the percentage of damage conversion to ice increases with each level of martial art, then deep wounds caused by predominant physical damage will be inflicted at the beginning of the game, but as the level of martial art increases, the freezing effect will be caused. In fact, I always thought that the first modifier of this martial art "sharp blades" had a mistake, and now I'm even more sure of it. Most likely, it increases the physical damage of skeletons. I've never tested how rings affect +% damage to summoned creatures. Is there an answer to this question? 1
Maneus 275 Posted November 25, 2024 (edited) I gave the Nether Allegiance combat art to the usual wolf and he now summons the minions. So I did some tests. The creature (from creatures.txt) has an "equipset" which can be found in equipsets.txt Spoiler mgr.createEquipset { id = 136, set = { { 403, EQUIPSLOT.AUTO, 0}, { 409, EQUIPSLOT.HELMET, 0}, { 408, EQUIPSLOT.CLOTH_CAPE, 0}, { 407, EQUIPSLOT.WEAPON_R, 1}, } } The first number in each tuple refers to a "weapon pool" from weaponpool.txt. The weaponpool for EQUIPSLOT.WEAPON_R: Spoiler mgr.addWeaponPool { -- spell_kohorte_sword dbid = 407, prefDmg = 1, prefDmgProb = 0, content = {98,}, contentProb = {100,}, } I believe this is a mechanism to randomly pick one item from a set. In this case, there is only one item in the set. And here is that item (sword) in blueprint.txt: Spoiler newBlueprint = { id = 98, name = "spell_kohorte_sword", palettebits = "1111111111111111", dmgvariation = 100, minconstraints = {1,4,0}, lvljump = 1, usability = 0, allotment_pmfpi = {1000,0,0,0,0}, uniquename = "", specialuseonly = 1, itemtypes = {3253,}, wearergroups = {'WEARGROUP_DEFAULT',}, } mgr.createBlueprint(98, newBlueprint); Now, this sword doesn't have any item modifiers on it. It is just a plain sword. It appears to spawn at item tier 4 because that is what is specified in the "minconstraints". Let's return back to the combat art. The combat art has a modification called "Sharp Blades" that looks like this: Quote entry5 = {"et_summon_longsword", 0, 1770, 2, 8 }, This entry appears to replace the default weapon of the minion with a different one (ID 1770). Here is this other sword in blueprint.txt: Spoiler newBlueprint = { id = 1770, name = "spell_kohorte_sword_Barsteward", palettebits = "1111111111111111", dmgvariation = 170, minconstraints = {1,5,0}, lvljump = 1, usability = 0, allotment_pmfpi = {750,0,0,250,0}, uniquename = "", specialuseonly = 1, bonusgroup0 = {22,1000,1,5,1}, bonusgroup1 = {528,1000,1,5,0}, itemtypes = {10197,}, wearergroups = {'WEARGROUP_KOHORTE',}, } mgr.createBlueprint(1770, newBlueprint); Now, this sword spawns at item tier 5 and has two bonus groups. Spoiler newBonusgroup = { id = 22, name = "WB_swdl_deepwound ", bonuslist = { 16,}, } mgr.createBonusgroup(22, newBonusgroup); newBonusgroup = { id = 528, name = "SB_off_dam_any_rel ", bonuslist = { 383,}, } mgr.createBonusgroup(528, newBonusgroup); And here is the bonus from the first group: Spoiler newBonus = { -- name = "wb_swdl_deepwound", rating = 25, basedonskill = "skill_sword_lore", type = "BONUS_DEEPWOUND", spez = "", spez2 = "", usagebits = 65535, minconstraints = {25,5,0}, difficultyvaluerange0 = {0,30,100}, difficultyvaluerange1 = {1,35,120}, difficultyvaluerange2 = {2,40,140}, difficultyvaluerange3 = {3,45,170}, difficultyvaluerange4 = {4,50,200}, } mgr.createBonus(16, newBonus); So the bonus is exactly Deep Wounds, but the value of the bonus is based on the skill "Sword Lore". Let's return back to the creatures. We can see that the creature is given the skill Sword Lore. Spoiler mgr.addCreatureSkill( 588, { skill_id = 1, advanced = 1, skill_name = "skill_sword_lore", }) But, because the "advanced" flag is set to 1, the skill will only work in bronze difficulty as explained here. Let's return back to the blueprint now. We can see that the bonusgroup has an odd constraint: Quote bonusgroup0 = {22,1000,1,5,1}, That last "1" at the end means that the bonusgroup will spawn on silver difficulty or above. So the Deep Wounds modifier has a constraint to show up only from silver and up, while the Sword Lore skill will work only in bronze difficulty. So it is not actually possible to inflict Deep Wounds. This is also what I observed during the tests. And yes, the minions deal both physical and ice damage because of the Conversion damage to Ice +X% modifier. All in all, there were no surprises so far. Edited November 25, 2024 by Maneus 1
Maneus 275 Posted November 25, 2024 (edited) 14 hours ago, Mellarion said: Also, I would like to note that debuffs like "burn" or "freeze" are caused by a large amount of damage. The base chance to inflict a secondary damage effect like Burn, Freeze, Weaken or Poison is determined by the ratio of element damage to total damage. For weapon attacks, if all of your damage is fire damage, then you will have 50% chance to burn. For spells that would be 25%. There is a requirement to have at least 1 damage of the respective element in order to have any chance whatsoever. And there might be an additional requirement to deal at least X amount of damage to have a chance - I'm not sure about this one. 14 hours ago, Mellarion said: I think this rule also applies to deep wounds caused by physical damage. While Deep Wounds could be classified as a secondary damage effect, it doesn't follow the same rules at all. The chance to inflict Deep Wounds is determined solely by the percentage you see in the item tooltip. And you don't need to do any damage in order to inflict it. The only requirement is to successfully hit the opponent. Deep Wounds does not cause damage in the conventional sense. What it does is it temporarily decreases the opponent's current and maximum hitpoints by a percentage. This percentage is pretty significant in the lower difficulties (20% in bronze), but is reduced in each of the following difficulties (down to 5% in niobium). All in all, Deep Wounds is not a modifier worth pursuing, I think. Note: It is always 20% against the player's character, so watch out for it. 14 hours ago, Mellarion said: Accordingly, if, as you say, the percentage of damage conversion to ice increases with each level of martial art, then deep wounds caused by predominant physical damage will be inflicted at the beginning of the game, but as the level of martial art increases, the freezing effect will be caused. Yes, the Conversion damage to Ice +X% modifier will scale with the minion level and difficulty level. As the level of the minion increases, so too will the proportion of ice damage to physical damage. 14 hours ago, Mellarion said: In fact, I always thought that the first modifier of this martial art "sharp blades" had a mistake, and now I'm even more sure of it. Most likely, it increases the physical damage of skeletons From what I see, Sharp Blades only changes the weapon (sword) of the minions. That new sword seems way better in a lot of ways. But whatever the physical damage ends up being, the conversion to ice is applied after. You will always end up doing predominantly ice damage no matter what. 14 hours ago, Mellarion said: I've never tested how rings affect +% damage to summoned creatures. Is there an answer to this question? As far as I'm aware, no item modifier (on your character) can affect the summoned minions. The summoned minions can only be affected by combat arts that specifically state that they affect allies or party members. For example: Reflective Emanation (with the respective modification), Augmenting Guidon and Rousing Command (with the respective modification). Edited November 25, 2024 by Maneus 1
Mellarion 4 Author Posted November 26, 2024 8 hours ago, Maneus said: As far as I'm aware, no item modifier (on your character) can affect the summoned minions. The summoned minions can only be affected by combat arts that specifically state that they affect allies or party members. For example: Reflective Emanation (with the respective modification), Augmenting Guidon and Rousing Command (with the respective modification). I disagree. Firstly, there are 2 debuffs that I wrote about in my first post. Secondly, if we take into account the fact that skeletons deal exclusively ice damage (thanks for this information), then there is a synergy with the ice elf and the ice guardian of the temple. In theory, both of their debuffs will work on summoned creatures as well. Well, this is a theory that I can't possibly verify. Otherwise, thank you very much for the clarification. In fact, the most interesting of all the information seems to be that "physical armor -x%" works on spells. (If you apply a weapon damage debuff) This opens up new possibilities for one character. Thank you for the answers. 1
Maneus 275 Posted November 26, 2024 (edited) On 11/25/2024 at 8:41 AM, Mellarion said: 1. I'm playing with CM and EE mods. I think what you said was not changed from vanilla. Everything I said above is for the unmodified version of the game. In EE (and probably the other mods as well) there is a significant change. 13 hours ago, Maneus said: mgr.addCreatureSkill( 588, { skill_id = 1, advanced = 1, skill_name = "skill_sword_lore", }) All occurences of "advanced = 1" have been replaced with "advanced = 0". Like so: Quote mgr.addCreatureSkill( 588, {skill_id = 1, advanced = 0, skill_name = "skill_sword_lore", }) This means that, in EE, the minions will have a working Sword Lore skill (on all difficulty levels) and will be able to inflict Deep Wounds (from silver and up). The chance is still going to be very small. But there will be a chance! Edited November 26, 2024 by Maneus 1
