Jump to content

Fewer Hits per kill improves drops! No it doesn't! Yes it does!


Kill Speed and it's Effect on Drops  

45 members have voted

  1. 1. Choose one of the choices below.

    • The quicker you kill a single target the better the drops.
      15
    • The fewer number of hits to kill a single target the better the drops.
      1
    • Excess Damage from a Killing Blow improves Drops
      0
    • Damage has nothing to do with Drops.
      29


Recommended Posts

Well this has been a fairly long standing matter of debate now and I though it high time that we get to the bottom of the matter after all these years. It's been touted since the age of Underworld magical formula exists in Ancaria that converts your uber damage into uber drops! From this lore two factions have arrived; The DoYah Yaysayers and the Neener Naysayers. Out of this great divide a quiet war has brewed underground; Now is the time to finally end the eternal war. Truth shall be the killing blow!

 

Alright guys, I'll tell yahs right now that I'm from the DoYah clan so watch out Neeners. :) The general argument here is that some believe that a single kill made in short time will result in better drops than from a kill made over a long time. It was tested by a number of people in Underworld and found true but has yet to be fully tested in Sacred 2. So! Let us put this debate to rest at last. Time to do some testing! Bosses may be a bit difficult to test this theory on since Bosses are made to drop good stuff. Best bet I would say is to test on champions and regular enemies.

 

Go! :)

 

EDIT:

 

Thanx to LittleFaith I'm adding a poll for clarification on the "belief".

Link to comment
  • Replies 89
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

My experience is a definite yes to speed of kill = more frequent drops.

 

Case in point is my 95 He that is strong but kills with Area of Effect and dot. she can kill 10 monsters at a time but takes longer to do it. My BFG is a one shot kill. she can kill 10 monsters about as fast as the high elf, but one at a time. both have about the same map revealed, and the HE actually has MF through her set items.

 

the seraphim can fill a chest full of sets. while the HE finds very few. I believe the difference is the speed of the kill.

Link to comment
Fewer Hits per kill improves drops!

After all my bosskillers and tests..... I can only say :

No it doesn't!

 

I remember...

Informations from Ice&Blood - Time to kill a guardian

Rainforest Spirit - Hunter dry : 5 seconds

Holonix IV - Ranged Shadow Warrior : 12 seconds

Holonix V - Ranged Shadow Warrior: 10 seconds

Holonix VI - Ranged Shadow Warrior: 10 seconds

Amarantine - Voodoo dry : 45 seconds (level 76 gold)

Only Time - Gold diggers member dry : 20 seconds

Forest Spirit - Hunter dry : 5 seconds [Oh, here I got a lot of gray shields for seras.... !]

Epic Rage - Melee Temple Guardian : 18 seconds

Kiradian I - 2h-Hafter Shadow Warrior : 20-25 seconds

 

Never got anything better for any of these bosskillers. :)

Edited by Woody
Link to comment

Heya,

 

I too wil say 'it doesn't'. Just to test this... I created an Astral Shadow Warrior with Spectral Hand. Some good LL% and DB. The kinda type that takes 4 and sometimes 5 hits to down the Grunwald Dragon and Guardians 1-2 when the Hand's double hit kicks in. So let's say he takes about 5 seconds for a boss

 

Forest Guardian seems to drop too many sets... takes about half an hour to fill a chest. Guardians don't seem to drop any better, Dragons and quest bosses neither.

 

I am not convinced that kill speed helps. The only thing I can say, is that it increases the run frequency on respawners like Forest Guardian and Dryad Isle dragon. Kill speed does indirectly increase the drop rate, because there are way more runs.

 

Greetz

Link to comment
Bosses may be a bit difficult to test this theory on since Bosses are made to drop good stuff. Best bet I would say is to test on champions and regular enemies.

 

*cough cough* :)

 

You guys are probably right in that you might not see a significant difference when testing on bosses. So let's remove Bosses from the equation. The reason I say this is because I tend to see the results of few hits/fast killing vs the opposite the best when fighting mobs like champions and regular enemies.

 

Loco's example above is a perfect case of the phenomenon.

Link to comment

Though I haven't tested it thoroughly I might have to go on the DoYah Yahsayers. I was doing Schot's run killing the Griffin and Wild Boar a while back. If I killed it within a few secs the enemy seemed to drop more/better loot. I think if you used this run to test it might be fairly easy. Go thru 10 times and attack with your best Combat Art and then 10 times doing only normal MLB attacks and see if there is any difference.

Link to comment
Fewer Hits per kill improves drops!

After all my bosskillers and tests..... I can only say :

No it doesn't!

 

I remember...

Informations from Ice&Blood - Time to kill a guardian

Rainforest Spirit - Hunter dry : 5 seconds

Holonix IV - Ranged Shadow Warrior : 12 seconds

Holonix V - Ranged Shadow Warrior: 10 seconds

Holonix VI - Ranged Shadow Warrior: 10 seconds

Amarantine - Voodoo dry : 45 seconds (level 76 gold)

Only Time - Gold diggers member dry : 20 seconds

Forest Spirit - Hunter dry : 5 seconds [Oh, here I got a lot of gray shields for seras.... !]

Epic Rage - Melee Temple Guardian : 18 seconds

Kiradian I - 2h-Hafter Shadow Warrior : 20-25 seconds

 

Never got anything better for any of these bosskillers. :bounce:

 

 

Geez Woody! Which of these is supposed to be the slow killing toon? :bounce: I don't really see much difference in these. :dance:

Link to comment

Ok, let's try to do this with a level of rigour.

 

 

First, it is probably wise to chose regular monsters over bosses as this both increases our sample size and rules out whatever weird mechanics factor into boss drops.

Secondly we need to make sure that all test characters are to kill an equal (or near equal) volume of monsters of about the same quality (IE. same type and same ratio of champions-to-non-champions). I reckon the easiest way to do this is find one of those respawning caves (like the Orc Cave) and have both characters perform an equal number of "full-clears" of said cave. Note this number need to be LARGE in order to be statistically significant. An ideal cave features a LOT of monsters in a relatively compact area (again in order to increase sample size).

 

Thirdly both characters should have the approximately the same amount of magic find. Preferably as low as possible. I would suggest no Enhanced Perception and no MF from gear. Both should have as little map uncovered as well.

 

Fourthly in order to make the effect we are trying to observe both chars should be at rather extreme ends of the spectrum. My recommendation would be an Int-Staff Cheese Dryad versus a Source Warden Temple Guardian. Note: as both characters will perform the same number of full clears their relative kill speed should be unimportant, though for the sanity of the researchers both should probably be Area of Effect mass-killers which is why I suggested the INT-Staff cheeser as the hard-hitter.

Link to comment
Ok, let's try to do this with a level of rigour.

 

 

First, it is probably wise to chose regular monsters over bosses as this both increases our sample size and rules out whatever weird mechanics factor into boss drops.

Secondly we need to make sure that all test characters are to kill an equal (or near equal) volume of monsters of about the same quality (IE. same type and same ratio of champions-to-non-champions). I reckon the easiest way to do this is find one of those respawning caves (like the Orc Cave) and have both characters perform an equal number of "full-clears" of said cave. Note this number need to be LARGE in order to be statistically significant. An ideal cave features a LOT of monsters in a relatively compact area (again in order to increase sample size).

 

Thirdly both characters should have the approximately the same amount of magic find. Preferably as low as possible. I would suggest no Enhanced Perception and no MF from gear. Both should have as little map uncovered as well.

 

Fourthly in order to make the effect we are trying to observe both chars should be at rather extreme ends of the spectrum. My recommendation would be an Int-Staff Cheese Dryad versus a Source Warden Temple Guardian. Note: as both characters will perform the same number of full clears their relative kill speed should be unimportant, though for the sanity of the researchers both should probably be Area of Effect mass-killers which is why I suggested the INT-Staff cheeser as the hard-hitter.

 

I like it! However, taking a melee or ranged toon out of the question may be significant. And for definition purposes, we should define fast kills. Do we mean low hit count = fast or low elapsed time = fast. I contend that if it takes 2 hits in 5 seconds or 10 hits in 5 seconds make little difference, fast is fast!

 

I am inclined to think that a test with different classes may also cloud the issue. Would attributes and SB also have to be factors some how?

 

So I would suggest a Multi aspect toon. and as Knuckles said. same toon, same situation( the orc cave is a good idea) for a fixed number of runs. Say 100 each. And compare: gold collected, uniques/sets collected. do 100 runs with the fastest attack and kill speed you have, and then 100 runes with the slowest you have.

Link to comment

Ok, I am a bit confused here. It seems there are a couple of theories about what is going on:

 

1. The game somehow keeps track of the time between the first damage is dealt to a monster and the time it dies. The shorter the interval the better the drop chance/drop quality roll whatever.

 

2. The game keeps track of the amount of discrete damaging hits the monster takes before it dies. The lower the number the greater the drop chance /MF.

 

3. Perhaps the game might simply convert any excess damage to MF which would benefit those who deals out damage in big dollops rather than a thousand cuts.

 

 

Anyway my fave theory is:

 

4. You are all just chasing shadows here. It's simply a matter of the faster boss runners getting more runs done and thus more loot.

My reason is: Why would the devs bother devoting time and machine cycles to such a feature? given it's gameplay value is more or less just to give more power to cheesy "one trick pony" power-builds. I thought they were deliberately trying to move a bit away from that with Sacred 2.

 

 

EDIT: Also a sample size of 100 is very small. Probably too small. You'll need to do thousands of runs to get any useful data.

Edited by Little Faith
Link to comment

I personally agree with theory 4, as this is not the first game I've seen these same exact speculations crop up. There's something about the mere possibility that something may increase your luck to get that infinity plus one sword with a .01% chance to drop that gives people a sense of hope.

 

*glares at the goo king sword*

 

Besides, if the RNG gods are against you, NO amount of twinking will get you what you want.

Edited by Purple Lizard
Link to comment
Why would the devs bother devoting time and machine cycles to such a feature? given it's gameplay value is more or less just to give more power to cheesy "one trick pony" power-builds. I thought they were deliberately trying to move a bit away from that with Sacred 2.

 

 

EDIT: Also a sample size of 100 is very small. Probably too small. You'll need to do thousands of runs to get any useful data.

 

Interesting that the reasoning you use to underline why it's unlikely that damage effects drop quality/quantity is very simialr to the reason why I support that it does. If damage(kill speed/time it takes to defeat opponent) has no effect on drop quality/quantity it would mean that a player could fill all his slots with MF with no regard for damage to produce the most amazing drops possible even though it might take the player 10 minutes to defeat the opponent. Something I've noticed about Sacred and it's that there is more than one way to accomplish similar effects. Chance to hit has many forms for example. Even Chance to find valuables has many forms:

  • Map Revealed, which adds a base MF
  • Survival Bonus, which we are told by devs is a part of drop quality/quantity
  • EP based MF rings, these are rings with Chance to find valuables in blue text and are effected by the Enhanced Perception skill
  • Jewelry with Chance to find valuables in Yellow text which seems to generally be a higher amount than EP based MF rings
  • Enemy type plays a role as well since each type has a predetermined drop chance value

 

There's probably even more factors such as number of players on the server or in your party... With all that I don't think it's far fetched to think that damage also plays a role. Whether it be by number of hits, how much per hit or simply the time it takes to kill. It rewards players who have developed a very good build and who are successful at defeating opponents efficiently. Should players be rewarded the same drop chances where one kills 10 times faster/better than another? Would I think of that as a Dev? Given I would have had experience in the RPG world... I probably would think of that.

 

 

Now for a simple test. The simplest test I can think of and in fact probably the reason for my belief in damage effecting drops is to compare two level 1 characters.

  1. Player 1 starts a new character and plays up to level 20 using only items that drop as they are playing. No purchases of fancy jewelry or uber weapons. In fact it is player 1's duty to ensure they do not have exceptional damage. You should expect to need about 5 hits per kill at least. Against a champion about 10 hits per kill.
  2. Player 2 is the privileged child. Player 2 will have his/her gear tailored and delivered. Ensuring the absolute best damage in Ancaria. Player 2's duty is to demand the best, never settle for less and be the biggest damage snob in Ancaria. You should expect to 1 hit kill everything! If you aren't then stamp your feet and demand your servants get their acts together and "gimme more!".

 

The two players will document their results via posts and occasional pictures of significance. They should save ALL of their Yellow and better drops in their storage chests to be compared at the end of the test. Level 20. Here are the restrictions for both players:

 

  • Player one may only read 1 rune per Combat Art
  • Use a Shadow Warrior
  • Play on HC
  • Play on Silver difficulty
  • Play solo in a closed server
  • No SB training
  • No Map Revealing before the test run
  • No quests are to be taken
  • No experience gear at all or use of experience statues
  • No EP or MF at all
  • Don't fight enemies that are known to have consistently bad drops. Small Toxic Elementals above Thylysium for example.

 

I think that covers it. Any takers? ^^

Link to comment
Interesting that the reasoning you use to underline why it's unlikely that damage effects drop quality/quantity is very simialr to the reason why I support that it does. If damage(kill speed/time it takes to defeat opponent) has no effect on drop quality/quantity it would mean that a player could fill all his slots with MF with no regard for damage to produce the most amazing drops possible even though it might take the player 10 minutes to defeat the opponent. Something I've noticed about Sacred and it's that there is more than one way to accomplish similar effects.

 

From my Diablo 2 days I know very well that the characters who prioritize kill speed over MF consistently get better items simply by being able to do more runs in the same timeframe as those who neglect kill-speed in favour of magic find. So fast killers still have an advantage without any dev meddling.

 

Frankly I'll still have to ask you what you mean by kill speed. Do you mean the interval between the monster takes the first hit till it dies? Or something else?

 

 

 

Also if these tests is to have any statistical relevance we must make sure the amount and quality of monsters the two characters are to beat are exactly the same. If one beats more champs than the other this could skewer results enormously. I still suggest we go the cave route for consistency. Going around exploring at random simply introduces too many random factors into the experiment. Also keeping map revealed/survival bonus the same for both character is a priority.

 

 

Just taking two identical level 1 characters. One twinked to the guts and the other equipped with greys and letting them loose for a couple of hours will only prove the one who kills more monsters has a better chance for good drops. Something that is not especially controversial.

Link to comment

Kill speed to me involves time of aggro to time of kill.

 

You're right about the inconsistency of the two comparisons regarding champs. To be honest I feel a little to confident about the prospect and feel that the difference will be seen in a matter of a few kills, heh. If you have you're own test route, like a cave as you mentioned, with restrictions Little Faith by all means please port it. :P

 

P.s.

Added *No SB training and *No Map Revealing before the test run to the list of restrictions!

Link to comment

That's an interesting challenge you've set up, Schot. I'm inclined to take it and see what happens. However, you may want to add no boss killing because the snob boy will have much better equip that may allow it to farm any boss that doesn't require a quest - because the poor boy will have much harder time doing so with only the things that drop.

 

Um... not to mention that luck will always play a big part here. How about a restriction that says "Do not use luck or wish on a lucky star when fighting?" :P

Edited by Dobri
Link to comment
My experience is a definite yes to speed of kill = more frequent drops.

 

Case in point is my 95 He that is strong but kills with Area of Effect and dot. she can kill 10 monsters at a time but takes longer to do it. My BFG is a one shot kill. she can kill 10 monsters about as fast as the high elf, but one at a time. both have about the same map revealed, and the HE actually has MF through her set items.

 

The seraphim can fill a chest full of sets. while the HE finds very few. I believe the difference is the speed of the kill.

 

The only thing that I do know about this is that during the beta we were told that killing large quantities of monsters in a very short time scale (ie, Area of Effect like Blazing Tempest, Firey Ember, VD when it was bugged) gives a lower chance to drop nice stuff.

 

4. You are all just chasing shadows here. It's simply a matter of the faster boss runners getting more runs done and thus more loot.

My reason is: Why would the devs bother devoting time and machine cycles to such a feature? given it's gameplay value is more or less just to give more power to cheesy "one trick pony" power-builds. I thought they were deliberately trying to move a bit away from that with Sacred 2.

 

I'm kinda with #4 on this one. sure, we could come up with all sorts of complicated logic to try & correlate drops to kill speed, mf, phases of the moon, number of players on the servers with an "N" in their aunt's middle name, etc, but you've got to remember that Ascaron had to drop quite a bit of stuff from the game (like the effect if Divine Devotion), so it seems a bit odd to have such complex formulae. Plus there's Occam's razor...

Link to comment
That's an interesting challenge you've set up, Schot. I'm inclined to take it and see what happens. However, you may want to add no boss killing because the snob boy will have much better equip that may allow it to farm any boss that doesn't require a quest - because the poor boy will have much harder time doing so with only the things that drop.

 

Um... not to mention that luck will always play a big part here. How about a restriction that says "Do not use luck or wish on a lucky star when fighting?" :)

 

Haha, oh yes! Nooooo praying to your chosen gods allowed! For that matter... No god spells allowed, hehe. You're hired Dobri! Will you be playing the role of poor peasant running for life or Damage snob? :P I have a full Shadow Warrior level 2 set full of slots I could tweak for the damage snob. As for the blind warrior wielding a dull blade I think it will be ok to give him/her some armor bonuses to ensure survivability at least.

 

My experience is a definite yes to speed of kill = more frequent drops.

 

Case in point is my 95 He that is strong but kills with Area of Effect and dot. she can kill 10 monsters at a time but takes longer to do it. My BFG is a one shot kill. she can kill 10 monsters about as fast as the high elf, but one at a time. both have about the same map revealed, and the HE actually has MF through her set items.

 

The seraphim can fill a chest full of sets. while the HE finds very few. I believe the difference is the speed of the kill.

 

The only thing that I do know about this is that during the beta we were told that killing large quantities of monsters in a very short time scale (ie, Area of Effect like Blazing Tempest, Firey Ember, VD when it was bugged) gives a lower chance to drop nice stuff.

 

This is intersting but in a different way to me. It seems a bit strange that there would be factors in place that reduce drop quality due to killing large mobs. Though read in a different way it actually substantiates what the Doyah clan is thinking. All three of those Combat Arts you mentioned have something in common. They are expected to require several hits in order to kill. Therefore overall and general Slow kill speed and low damage per tick compared to say a Hard Hit type Combat Art.

 

Test Revised:

 

Now for a simple test. The simplest test I can think of and in fact probably the reason for my belief in damage effecting drops is to compare two level 1 characters. Both characters will begin their test at the western Tyr Lysia portal in the Kobold area and travel north. Once they have defeated 100 Kobolds they should return to the Island to catalog their drops. Of the 100 Kobolds there will be champions. If and when you fight champions please take note of how many you defeat. Or to simplify; kill only 20 Champion Kobolds of the total 100.

  1. Player
    1 starts a new character and must kill 100 Kobolds using only armor that was made for the test and any weapon that drops as they are playing. No purchases of fancy jewelry or uber weapons. In fact it is player 1's duty to ensure they do not have exceptional damage. You should expect to need about 5 hits per kill at least. Against a champion about 10 hits per kill. Evasion rings will be supplied.
     
  2. Player 2 is the privileged child and must kill 100 Kobolds. Player 2 will have his/her gear tailored and delivered. Ensuring the absolute best damage in Ancaria. Player 2's duty is to demand the best, never settle for less and be the biggest damage snob in Ancaria. You should expect to 1 hit kill everything! If you aren't then stamp your feet and demand your servants get their acts together and "gimme more!".

 

The two players will document their results via posts and occasional pictures of significance. They should save ALL of their Yellow and better drops in their storage chests to be compared at the end of the test. Level 20. Here are the restrictions for both players:

 

  • Player one may only read 1 rune per Combat Art
  • Use a Shadow Warrior
  • Play on HC
  • Play on Silver difficulty
  • Play solo in a closed server
  • No SB training
  • No Map Revealing before the test run
  • No quests are to be taken
  • No Boss fights
  • No use of god spells
  • No experience gear at all or use of experience statues
  • No EP or MF at all
  • Only fight Kobolds in the specified area
  • No "luck" allowed! People who are generally lucky need not apply! :P

Link to comment

I'm up for the poor boy who starts with basic equip at level 1 - nothing but his pitiful sword and shield, who runs back to camp every time he's low on HP :)

 

Besides, I know how much you enjoy shopping and tweaking in Sacred 2, Schot. I wouldn't presume to deprive you of that pleasure :P Besides, I'll raise him to 20 and then delete him anyway (I've already got me a Shadow Warrior smith), but it will be a good way to spend some time and check a valuable point in the game :)

 

However, what happens if something other than a kobold starts hacking at me (like a boar, they exist here and there)? I'd say we should simply limit ourselves to the area around Sloeford and see what happens till level 20. There are plenty of kobolds there anyway.

 

EDIT: The thing is - I'm not certain that a level 1 Shadow Warrior with only a sword and shield can survive vs. a vast number of kobolds near the portal with only 3 HP pots. Don't forget that he's a poor, poor boy and will have to run away when he faces a lot of enemies :P

Edited by Dobri
Link to comment

Ok, I'll be a Damage Snob. :P I recently made uber level 2 and level 15 Shadow Warrior gear so I'm already more or less ready. Just need to make sure they don't have any MF. You should feel free to use Armor Smith Arts for yours. We'll at least allow that much. ^^

 

 

How's about we first do a 100 Kobold kills run, compare and then continue on to level 20? For the comparison of 100 Kobolds killed we should keep the best of whatever drops in our backpack and when complete drop it all on the ground, hold alt to show item names(so we can see the yellows and blues etc) and take a screenshot of that to post here. Then sell it all and continue to level 20. Keep only the most valuable and sell crap stuff to make room for good drops. I think that will work...

 

I'm heading out for now. Be back soon!

Link to comment

You would have to do several trials to level 20. Several different poor boys and good spec boys. Only then could you see the variation amongst poor boys. Because when you have random drops its like gambling.... sometimes you are on fire. Data doesn't necessarily average out over whatever period. What you need is about 20 trials to level 20 all poor boys and see how much random variation you get. Oh and thats a tiny data set.

Link to comment

Ok, I get what you guys are saying about needing several trials and such but IF you saw that poor boy got 5 yellows and specced boy got 70 what then would you think. Personally I'm expecting a very large difference on the first round. Let's wait and see. :P

Link to comment

Really good idea, Claudius. We should make a few teams of poor and snob boys that will go solo and post the results rather than wasting 2 people's time.

 

So... any other takers? Having a level 2 shopper+niob smith is preferable for the test if you play a snobby one :P

 

EDIT: Nothing against your position, Schot, but the more people testing it, the better :) You know what they say "exceptions confirm the rule", so we ought to avoid that.

Edited by Dobri
Link to comment

You still have to test if 10 poor boys head to head get a huge variation as well (amongst different poor boys)...

 

I mean if you and I both play roulette for 2 hours and you win 100 dollars and I lose 400 dollars that does not mean that you are a better roulette player does it? even though theres a significant difference to casual inspection.

 

If you guys really want to do this correctly you should use the student t function to test for 'significant' difference. For example the student t function at the 95% confidence level will show how much of a difference between the 2 groups there needs to be (as a function of the size of your data set) for there to be a 95% chance that the difference wasn't by chance alone. Even then there would still be a 5% chance it was by chance alone. You need a data set of infinite size to get to the 100% confidence level.

 

Actually I'll tell you one thing. If you don't do any statistics your probably wasting your time because you won't know what your results mean anyhow.

 

 

My advice is to decide before hand what you are counting otherwise selection bias. Say if your prima donna found a huge number of poison fangs so after the fact you theorize prima donna makes more fangs. That would be flawed experiment because your just noting what your randomly had a lot of rather than deciding what you test from the beginning. I would advise uniques be counted.

 

Second everyone has to have same or similar map revealed and same MF gear. Also same survival bonus which is easy to accomplish with everyone 0 deaths. To do that even the poor boys should bang some niob anneal runes in their gear so they don't waste the time if they die before the data is collected.

 

Ideally they would face the same enemies. I think the orc cave might be too high level or a pain to wait to level up high enough. But maybe not. If so then have each character do 100 or 200 orc cave runs and see what they get. Two groups of 10 might get enough data.

 

Another choice could be to do 10 runs from the western portal by the copper peaks up to the temple of noriath trying not to stray from the path too much. On average you'd fight the same amount of kobolds and champs but the orc cave is a little more controlled.

Edited by claudius
Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...
Please Sign In or Sign Up