The Orc Cave: Does its experience remain superior at the higher levels?

[Mystix123 60]

Wow, it's been a while since I've run a statistical test that produced any noteworthy results for Sacred 2. So, without further delay, I present to you another statistical comparison for your consideration.

Experiment 1

I used a level 147-149 DW Seraphim for these (so, like last time, this may not generalize to Area of Effect builds). Niob was the difficulty of choice.
Each of the 5 conditions saw 6 runs in total, consisting of 2 runs in each condition per level (so 2 data points for level 147, 2 for level 148 and 2 for level 149).
The equipment used remained the same throughout all of the tests. The chosen suit was an Experience/Kill gear set.

I compared the Orc Cave to 4 different variations of either chain quests, or multiple quests combined together.
- Orc Cave: Each run consisted of 7 cycles.
- Attack Is The Best Defense chain quest in El-Darrag (AITBD): Each run consisted of finishing the entire chain quest (3 quests in total).
- Attack Is The Best Defense chain quest in El-Darrag, combined with a Holos run (Holos): Each run consisted of finishing the enter chain quest, but during the second quest, a trip to Holos was made (while getting the 20 quest drops).
- Kobold Chieftain (including Kobold Cave) + Muggers + The Brigand Camp (Kobold): This is one of my favourite early quest runs, combining Muggers and The Brigand Camp together on the way to the Kobold Chieftain. I also included a run in the Kobold Cave, which is a cave close to the entrance to the Kobold Village (which contains a horde of Kobolds).
- Wild Boar: Each run consisted of teleporting to Kufferath Castle and running south to the Wild Boar, killing everything along the way (including the Wild Boar itself).

The general results can be found below:

		Mean Experience/Second	SD		Mean Time	SD
Orc Cave	3,969.14		59.96		149.00		2.68
AITBD		3,844.51		320.99		307.67		47.81
Holos		3,149.89		191.90		532.00		18.45
Kobold		2,585.71		138.49		676.67		26.91
Wild Boar	2,550.07		205.51		280.17		30.70

The statistical comparisons can be found below (If "p" is less than 5%, the effect is deemed genuine):

			p		Result In Favour Of
Orc Cave vs AITBD	42.7%		N/A
Orc Cave vs Holos	0%		Orc Cave
Orc Cave vs Kobold	0%		Orc Cave
Orc Cave vs Wild Boar	0%		Orc Cave

AITBD vs Holos		0.9%		AITBD
AITBD vs Kobold		0%		AITBD
AITBD vs Wild Boar	0%		AITBD

Holos vs Kobold		0%		Holos
Holos vs Wild Boar	0.7%		Holos

Kobold vs Wild Boar	72.1%		N/A

In short, at the higher levels: Orc Cave = Attack Is The Best Defense Chain > Attack Is The Best Defense Chain + Holos Run > Kobold Chieftain + Brigand Camp + Muggers = Wild Boar Run.
The face that the AITBD chain quest produces comparable experience to the Orc Cave at the higher levels was a surprise. In order to explore this more, I ran a second, shorter experiment with a lower level character.

Experiment 2
I used a lower level character to compare the Orc Cave against the AITBD chain, to see if the null findings concerning Orc Cave vs. AITBD only applies at the higher level, as the experience per kill steadily decreases in the Orc Cave.

The methods for Experiment 2 were largely the same as Experiment 1, except for the following change: Instead of the level 147-149 SW Seraphim, I used a level 71-74 DW Seraphim. Each run was in the Gold difficulty. Each of the conditions saw 4 runs in total, consisting of 1 run per level. The chosen suit was still an Experience/Kill gear set, and equipment did not change at any time throughout the tests.

The general results can be found below:

		Mean Experience/Second	SD		Mean Time	SD
Orc Cave	4,373.27		155.04		115.50		3.42
AITBD		3,284.97		470.75		268.50		23.22

The statistical comparisons can be found below (If "p" is less than 5%, the effect is deemed genuine):

			p		Result In Favour Of
Orc Cave vs AITBD	2.2%		Orc Cave

In short, at the lower levels: Orc Cave > Attack Is The Best Defense Chain.

Discussion
Overall, due to the rapidly decreasing experience per kill, as well as the steady increase in the value of quest rewards, it seems that AITBD may start outperforming the Orc Cave as characters push beyond level 150.
This supports the value of questing once the experience per kill begins to decline at the higher levels.

[Etherian 76]

Great data mining Mystix. Your findings are correct. Past level 150, the only way to achieve a higher level without the level taking literally forever is by questing. *One could debate at level 130, diminishing returns* The quest experience outpaces kill experience by a massive mulitude once past a certain breakeven point if you will.

 

You have a science & math background, which is clear. I base my findings on real time play experience with a touch of common sense, connecting dots. If one plays enough, you can achieve a baseline over time. Then finally, you can begin to see a pattern or trend line forming. Which clearly suggests the same as hard data.

 

Bravo! once again. The hard data backs up what some of us have been putting together via trial & error.

 

Thank You!

 

I remain,

[wolfie2kX 528]

Yah.. It makes sense - all areas have a level cap. When you start out in say, Silver, in the "home" areas of any of the characters, the critters and enemies you face will have a yellow ring - and the game will continue to give you yellow ringed opponents until you level up high enough to surpass the level cap of that area. You can test this by starting a game and when you hit, say, level 20, you can go back to the starting area of your character and find they're now ringed in white and are royally underwhelming.

 

But yeah, it's good to have hard empirical data to back that up.

[Mystix123 60]

Etherian:

I'd seen much discussion about switching from grinding to questing at the high levels, which mainly applied to the PC version. I wasn't sure if the same rule applied to the console version. I also wasn't sure if questing > grinding was the best rule of thumb, and I don't think that it's quite the rule of thumb yet. So far, there's only evidence of AITBD = Orc Cave (in short bursts). In other words, AITBD is an alternative to the Orc Cave, for variety.

If beyond level 150, AITBD's experience/second becomes greater, that would suggest that the most effective way of leveling would be to grind AITBD. However, the load time from having to quit/reload might throw off a longer term experience/second (at least, compared to the Orc Cave, which can be run indefinitely without a break...my record is a little over 10 hours straight). For my next test, I plan on running a comparison between successive AITBD runs and roughly the same amount of time in the Orc Cave.

 

Do you happen to have a list of preferred quests/chain quests which are commonly used by the PC players? So far, most of the chain quests which I've tested haven't been able to hold up to the Orc Cave or AITBD, so it might be good to have some alternatives.

 

Wolfie: The experience decline isn't a function of a level cap in this case. The experience/kill would drop much quicker than it does, and the level cap would affect the gear dropped also. I believe the level cap for the Orc region is in the mid-to-high 190s.

This diminishing returns is the overall decrease in experience/kill beyond a certain level (level 130, as Etherian referred to), across all mobs. This includes a diminishing return to the Nameless Guardians (at least on console).

[Mystix123 60]

Experiment 3

Same as Experiment 2, except for the following changes:

- A level 150 DW Seraphim was used for this test. (It only required 3 runs of each the Orc Cave and the AITBD conditions.)

- Instead of only running the AITBD chain once, then recording the data, I ran it twice (including the load times from having to quit, save and start another Free World game). This better simulates how I would actually run the quest if I were trying to level my character (for prolonged periods of time, as opposed to once).

 

General results:

		Mean Experience/Second	SD
Orc Cave	3,791.47		48.78
AITBD		3,429.92		109.71

Statistical comparisons:

			p		Result In Favour Of
Orc Cave vs AITBD	1.2%		Orc Cave

The Orc Cave regains favour (in experience over time) as you move beyond a single run. This makes sense, as you don't have to stop and reload at any point.

Of course, for each additional run you put into the AITBD chain, the experience per second decreases accordingly.

The difference between the Orc Cave and the multi-run variety of AITBD may disappear slowly (as the experience reward at the end of each quest increases), but both conditions suffer from the decreasing experience per kill, so this may not happen until somewhere above level 175 (if not higher).

 

I'm going to continue to see if any other chain quests can compare to AITBD. At that point, multiple chain quests could be tied together (which could close this gap quickly).