Spyrus 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Hi, all with this topic I would like to discuss with you my general approach to character building. Of course character building will have so many variatons as the number of the players (us)! These characters have been tested on both single and multiplayer. Most of them have entered gold difficulty in level 37 and can kill mobs at +10 level ( when they past 30-35 level) Can survive Bronze and Silver with ease. General Rules that will categorize the skill picking and points-given: 1)Skills are divided in primary and secondary. That means that primary are the most suited to the character. Here, we will choose as much as primary we can. For example Dual Wield is primary only for Inquisitor, so he will be the only Dual Wield character. Only exception are the Two Aspect Focus, Constitution, Armor Lore and Concentration (if > 1 buff) skills to this rule, since these will be in all our character and are vital as Dobri suggested 2)One or Two aspects will be used: One primary (attack) and one supporting it. a)Lore + focus for the primary aspect are mandatory. All CAs of that aspect usually are used in-game (attack + buffed/mini-buffed ones) b)Focus is mandatory for the supporting aspect (which will allow us to mod it) From supporting focus aspect the buff and long-terms auras (mini-buffs) are usually the only usefull CAs not the first 2-3 (attacking CAs - based on aspect lore) It depends on your style to choose focus right after the respective lore skill or before it (whenever possible), if you like to use often combat arts and decreased regeneration-time to spend skill points earlier on focus c)In the case of only one aspect is chosen then a candidate will be a 2-buffed aspect one. In that case the Focus skill of secondary aspect is not there. Instead Combat Discipline is highly recommended. Example is Devout Guardian, Astute Supremacy,BFG 3)All builds will have their buffs active. The number of buffs depend on the aspects taken. So we can have 1 - 3 buffs with more common the 2-buffed builds In case at least 2 buffs taken, concentration is common for all characters (and we give 1 point only to activate it except in the case of 3 buffs) A one buff example is TG of having Devout Guardian + Lost Fusion and not having Combat Alert as buff or Source Warden + Lost Fusion build Possible 3-buff builds will use an aspect having 2-buffs so: A 3- buff example is TG of having Devout Guardian + Source Warden and having Combat Alert as buff. A 3 - buff example is HE Pyromancer + Arcania A 3 - buff example is a BFG seraphim with Exalted Warrior or Celestial Magic A 3 - buff example is Inquisitor with Astute Supremacy and having Doppelganger active In these 3 - buffed cases concentration need to be master 4)All builds will be left with 1-2 skills open for customization. Some could assign primary General Skills (which I do not like at all!) 4)Try to keep primary aspect lore + weapon lore level as high as to reach level cap. General Rules for combat arts and combos chosen: (thx Dobri) 1)The first 2-3 combat arts will be short term one take from primary aspect. They can be combined as combo with 2 (or 3 arts if you have combat discipline). 2)The last 1-2 will have arts with cooldown from primary and supporting aspect, if applicable 3)Playing style is to switch between CA1/CA2/CA3 all the time depend on boss/crowd/damageOverTime attack and use the CA3/CA4 long-term as supporting mini-buffs in order to have an aura follow you all the time 4)All combat arts will be modded from both aspects except the CA that are not used General Rules for attributes: 1)Choose what increase damage and attack to put more points (Dexterity for Dryad, Intelligence for High Elf, Strength for others for example) Ranged and 2 slot swords - > Dexterity Staves, Rods -> Intelligence Some Swords,Hafted, some PoleArms->Strength Look here : http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Weapons 2)Melee characters need also some in constitution, Caster in Stamina Following are the examples with 2 aspects (you can change one of them with the one you like) Seraphim example with Exalted Warrior (Primary) & Celestial Magic Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Tactics Lore 3)Exalted Warrior Focus 4)Constitution 5)Celestial Magic Focus 6)Pole Arm/Sword Two-Handed 7)Armor Lore 8)Combat Reflexes Optional: 9)Shield Lore only if playing one hand weapon 10)Anything else except Revered Technology Aspect & Celestial Magic Lore Combat Art 1: Pelting Strikes Combat Art 2 / Combo 2: Soul Hammer and/or Assailing Somersault Combat Art 3 / Combo 3: Instill Belief and/or Hallowed Restoration Combat Art 4: Dashing Alacrity Dryad example with Capricious Hunter (Primary) & Nature Weaver Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Tactics Lore 3)Capricious Hunter Focus 4)Constitution 5)Nature Weaver Focus 6)Ranged 7)Spell Resistance 8)Combat Reflexes Optional: 9)Shield Lore only if playing one hand weapon or Armor Lore (secondary) since many items for Dryad have modifiers for armor 10)Anything else except Cabalistic Voodoo Aspect and Nature Weaver Lore Combat Art 1: Ravaged Impact Combat Art 2: Darting Assault Combat Art 3 / Combo 3: Dust Devil and/or Forest Flight Combat Art 4 / Combo 4: Tangled Vine and/or Goldenglade Touch Inquisitor example with Gruesome Inquisition (Primary) & Nefarious Underworld Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Tactics Lore 3)Gruesome Inquisition Focus 4)Constitution 5)Nefarious Underworld Focus 6)Dual Wield 7)Toughness 8)Armor Lore 9)Damage Lore 10)Combat Reflexes Optional: - Combat Art 1 / Combo 1: Callous Execution and / or Mortifying Pillory Combat Art 2: Ruthless Mutilation Combat Art 3: Frenetic Frevor Combat Art 4: Paralyzing Dread High Elf example with Mystic Stormite (Primary) & Delphic Arcania Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Mystic Stormite Lore 3)Mystic Stormite Focus 4)Constitution 5)Delphic Arcania Focus 6)Staves 7)Ancient Magic (secondary but it is perfect for HE) 8)Armor Lore Optional: 9)Shield lore if one handed 10)Anything else except Arrant Pyromancer Aspect and Delphic Arcania Lore Combat Art 1/ Combo 1: Glacial Thorns and / or Raging Nimbus Combat Art 2: Frost Flare Combar Art 3/ Combo 3: Shadow Step and /or Expulse Magic Combar Art 4: Cascading Shroud Shadow Warrior example with Death Warrior & Malevolent Champion Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Tactics Lore 3)Death Warrior Focus 4)Malevolent Champion Focus 5)Constitution 6)Hafted (one hand are preferable they are many from drops) 7)Armor Lore 8)Shield Lore Optional: 9)Anything else except Astral Lore Aspect 10)Anything else except Astral Lore Aspect Combo 1: Ruinous Onslaught and /or Scything Sweep + Demonic Blow Combo 2: Belligerent Vault + Frenzied Rampage or Combat Art:Augmenting Guidon (Standalone) Combat Art 3: Rousing Command Combat Art 4: Killing Spree Edited March 19, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) I have some questions. Before I start, please keep in mind that I mean no disrespect. I quite like what you wrote here, as most of it is 100% spot on. My analysis here will be based on the fact that pretty much any build can survive silver and gold, and pretty much any build can get to level 75 without hardly any problems. So, here we go... 3)Two aspects will be used both with lore skill and focus skill to have maximum damage, mod, combart art level and regenaration time. It depends on your style to choose focus right after the repsective lore skill or before it whenever possible (if you like to use often combart arts) -> I disagree with that. Generally, having 2 aspects to think about overburdens your character in terms of skill point distribution. If you want both aspects up to a decent level, you will need to add points to their respective lore and focus all the time (unless the aspect has only a focus) which means you need to spare 3 or 4 points on each level up only for that. If a build has tactics lore, it is a must to add a point there each level to improve damage and critical chance. Keeping in mind that you have only 5 points to distribute at most, you will need to make a setback on 1 aspect, or both in order to support the other skills. If you take a look at the Softcore ladder, you will see that people who have generally dispersed their points through several aspect have died the most. My question here is - how do you define a primary and secondary aspect if you pick 2? Or you do parallel leveling? *** 1)Choose what increase damage and attack (Dexterity for Dryad, Intelligence for High Elf, Strength for others for example) -> Distributing points between your attributes requires a lot of common sense. You cannot just dump points into an attribute and feel happy about it. Melee chars may want some points in dexterity to improve their chance to hit as well (especially if they don't have an attack rating booster buff, CA or skill). Besides, lot of builds are generally high on combat art regeneration times (especially caster builds that don't have reduction for regen times for an aspect, which pretty much rules out all other casters but the HE) and require serious investment in stamina, because for them low-level combat art means lower damage, and of course, death. In addition to that, you cannot dismiss vitality. Fewer HP on higher difficulties mean death. My question here is: do you plan to survive niobium solely on damage? *** Combo 2: Radiant Pillar + Baneful Smite and/or Hallowed Restoration - would you care to elaborate how do you combine these 2? Radiant pillar can be cast anywhere on the field and baneful smite requires you to select a target for it. In my opinion the combo will just stop working after you place the pillar unless you click on a mob because baneful smite can't just target itself. Generally you can attack with baneful smite and cast a pillar on the same spot (because this is what I suppose the reversed combo will do - first smite then pillar), but is it worth it? Baneful smite is the basic attack (striking 1 or 2 targets) for celestial magic oriented seraphim, while Radiant pillar is much more crowd-control oriented. I don't see how these 2 mix in a combo. Generally, you can stack a bunch of skills and still have a combo, but its overall usefulness is another thing. My question here is: Did it work for you at all, and if it did, how? *** Seraphim example with Exalted Warrior & Celestial Magic Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Tactics Lore 3)Exalted Warrior Focus 4)Celestial Magic Lore 5)Celestial Magic Focus 6)Pole Arm/Sword Two-Handed 7)Armor Lore 8)Combat Reflexes Optional: 9)Shield Lore only if playing one hand weapon 10)Anything else except Revered Technology Aspect -> I don't see Constitution here. When you enter niobium and mobs are 15+ levels above you (it will be more) and feel them hitting like a ten ton truck, the lower amounts of hit points will be a serious downfall. Even a mixed melee-caster build like the one you posted needs more hit points. -> I disagree with that ban on the revered tech aspect. A melee build requires as much protection as possible and revered tech provides a lot more of it than Celestial Magic. I agree that having radiant pillar is nice, but it's best to have skills and combat arts that complement each other. It's very difficult to mix a melee and caster build in first place. It will neither hit and take damage as well as it should, nor cast spells well. What will you prefer? Having a + attack speed or + cast speed modifier? I've never seen both of them on 1 item. Yes, you can keep several weapons for that reason, but when you get overwhelmed by tough mobs (especially in niobium) there is hardly any time for micromanagement. -> I also disagree with the ban on the general skills. You can do boss runs for set and unique items, but without something to fill in those sockets, they are as bad as the white ones that you find. Bargaining can provide a lot of useful rings and amulets to fill in these sockets with various modifiers - like + all skills, or death blow, or whatever. Since these mods appear generally on rare items, and rare items have a ton of different modifiers, it's pure luck to come upon the one you want. My question here is: do you think that this build will do well in niobium, as it will lack armor, protection, and your equipment will most likely be behind in levels? *** High Elf example with Mystic Stormite & Delphic Arcania Aspects: Skills 1)Concentration 2)Mystic Stormite Lore 3)Mystic Stormite Focus 4)Delphic Arcania Lore 5)Delphic Arcania Focus 6)Staves 7)Ancient Magic (secondary but it is perfect for HE) 8)Armour Lore Optional: 9)Anything else except Arrant Pyromancer Aspect 10)Anything else except Arrant Pyromancer Aspect With all due respect, I see absolutely no sense in this build. First of all, it's very weak in terms of armor rating. In addition to that, this build will be extremely low on HP without constitution. An outnumbered HE in platinum and niobium with weak armor rating and few HP's can die within seconds - before you manage to hit space for a HP pot, or escape with shadow step (you may not have the time to switch to it and port away). Mystic stormite is an aspect that works well from range, while delphic arcania supports the close-combat high elf with that awesome Magic coup CA and has few worthy long-range spells (Cobalt strike is the only one). In addition to that, this build is also quite dispersed between melee and casting. Taking the staves skill will support close combat and will open up a few mods on the weapons, but without tactics lore to improve the damage, it won't work well, even in conjunction with magic coup, because staves have relatively low damage. I would rather pick sword lore if I am to play with magic coup. Then again - what kind of modifiers will you prefer? + attack speed or + cast speed? Which aspect will be your primary, where you'll be putting most of the points? If you select stormite, then she turns into a caster which diminishes the usefulness of Delphic lore. If you select Delphic as primary, she gets more close-combat oriented, which diminishes the usefulness of the stormite aspect, which is entirely caster-oriented. And if you leave out Stormite, its Combat Arts damage will drop dramatically (especially if you are to balance damage and regen time). Keep in mind that Crystal skin overburdens CA regen times dramatically for the delphic arcania aspect... In my opinion, either staves and delphic lore are useless in this build, or the entire stormite aspect. Both Pyro and Stormite builds benefit dramatically from Shadow Step and Grand invigoration - but for those two you don't really need the delphic lore or staves skills. You should also keep in mind that because of the generally lower damage of the stormite aspect, it would require support from both Ancient magic and Combat discipline at later difficulties. I didn't see Combat Discipline in your build, and 2 free picks do not suffice for tactics lore, constitution and CD, and even shield lore to augment the general idea of your build. My question here is: how did you manage to combine these 2 aspects? Do you think this build be as effective in niobium as it is in silver or gold? *** Combo 1: Glacial Thorns + Frost Flare - I don't see how these two mix at all in a combo. Frost flare is used for sniping, because it has a rather long range. In addition to that Frost flare is sort of a cast-and-forget spell, because it has ice damage over time, which is designed to kill the target if the initial damage is not enough to do so. On the other hand, Thorns has moderate range and is used for crowd control. Even at higher levels, thorns rarely hit something for a decent damage beyond mid-range. This means you either go beyond the useful range of the thorns or you don't take advantage of the long range Frost flare provides. How did you manage to combine these two? *** Combo 2: Cobalt Strike + Magic Coup and /or Shadow Step - I don't see how both these combination will work. Cobalt strike is best used at range. As Cobalt strike is supposed to work at range, so Magic coup is a close combat CA. It may work, but you are required to allow mobs to get close to you... And at later difficulties this will be dangerous, because you will be low on both armor and HP. Cobalt strike + Shadow step MAY make a good combo, but for it to work effectively you must be COMPLETELY surrounded by mobs in order for the chain lightning to hit as many targets and the explosion mod on the shadow step (provided you took it) to finish them off. However, this is a risky ploy, because with this build you'll have low armor rating, and allowing too many opponents to get to you may mean death at later difficulties. Now the same question... How did you manage to combine these two? I'm VERY, VERY, VERY sorry if I was harsh here and there... I can assure you I have over 30 chars with various builds on my PC which I made with unmodded balance.txt file and from scratch in order to ascertain the usefulness and the easy-going of the various builds after the initial char tests with modded balance.txt (which I deleted afterwards), so I'm not just doing some plain chattering to give my fingers a good exercise. I'm speaking entirely from my personal experience with both these chars (close combat seraphim, stormite oriented HE) which I have at 120+ level in HC SP, both dead. I can tell you that a build without constitution is a lost cause in niobium. You can expect to die a lot of times. Without good stuff to fill your free sockets, you are better off without them - and this requires you to have a char with high bargaining in order to shop some useful rings and amulets. In addition to that, you can shop rare items that can be better than most of the set or unique items. My HC stormite-oriented HE had a rare breastplate with 180+ def, +8 all skills +7 to defensive skills and 2 silver sockets, which I filled with 2x +8 all skills rings - this is +24 all skills coming from this item only (not taking into account the +def skills bonus). Even this didn't help in niobium and she died, overwhelmed by various mobs in the Wastelands because I lacked good armor rating (I had like 5k at that time). I didn't even had the time to shadow step away or drink a pot. BB HC 127 level Stormite-oriented HE. This is why in my other stormite-build posts I strongly emphasized on shield lore. A HE needs the extra defense. BADLY. The same goes for the close-combat seraphim. Without constitution she's as good as dead if she's swarmed in niobium. For that reason, in my opinion, a close-combat seraphim needs consitution and revered tech focus (at least) for hp regen in combat and a good warding shield. These 2 can save your life - at least till you hit F12 or save and exit. Well, that is from the HC point of view... Edited March 10, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) WoW a lot of questions let me answer them one by one: Before that I understood perfectly the way you talked me to your thread and I am glad that you are open-minded. I was writing at work so now I will be more clear I hope... For helping out a screenshot here of Seraphim: Like I said and you said I am at the middle of Gold with characters like Dryad or High Elf (level 42-45) and they are doing quite well, so many of the Niobium questions will be unanswered because I cannot make assumptions. 1)I disagree with that. Generally, having 2 aspects to think about overburdens your character in terms of skill point distribution. If you want both aspects up to a decent level, you will need to add points to their respective lore and focus all the time (unless the aspect has only a focus) which means you need to spare 3 or 4 points on each level up only for that. If a build has tactics lore, it is a must to add a point there each level to improve damage and critical chance. Keeping in mind that you have only 5 points to distribute at most, you will need to make a setback on 1 aspect, or both in order to support the other skills. If you take a look at the Softcore ladder, you will see that people who have generally dispersed their points through several aspect have died the most. My question here is - how do you define a primary and secondary aspect if you pick 2? Or you do parallel leveling? *** I parallel leveling the two aspects and especially the lores. They are caped at level 25 if I remember correctly. That means that I put most of points on lores, then the spare on weapon mastery and for armor lore,shield lore whenever I want a new over-leveled item. Next level will put two points in lore (I cannot put more) and again rest to other skills... Other skills e.g. combat reflexes will have points every 4-5 level. Exception is the SW who have one lore (Tactics) if take 2 first aspects and in that case constitution is in parallel (primary skill only for SW). I then look as I level up the regeneration time of the two combos and put in there when I see if they are taking long. The modding of arts is also done in parallel. And of course I have a headroom for art skill level. One Glacial Thorns spell on first dragon at seraphim island take almost half of its life (great level of lore and combat art level in his own) 2)Distributing points between your attributes requires a lot of common sense. You cannot just dump points into an attribute and feel happy about it. Melee chars may want some points in dexterity to improve their chance to hit as well (especially if they don't have an attack rating booster buff, CA or skill). Besides, lot of builds are generally high on combat art regeneration times (especially caster builds that don't have reduction for regen times for as aspect, which pretty much rules out all other casters but the HE) and require serious investment in stamina, because for them low-level combat art means lower damage, and of course, death. In addition to that, you cannot dismiss vitality. Fewer HP on higher difficulties mean death. My question here is: do you plan to survive niobium solely on damage? Just take out what I wear which may increase chance to hit, opponents evade, attack, etc... and stay to naked character (except weapon lol) Chance to hit will be on combat art as it will be maxed out Puting point to damage attribute will give high attack and damage and spell intensity for HE and dexterity for Dryad. Most buffs and long-term CA Skills of first aspect (the close combat aspect) have that boost you talked about. The basic idea is to do quick massive damage before anyone can touch you. And if he touches you for once then you will have killed him at the same time with second massive damage. I one-hit until level 60 (one character Dryad is at 60 and in closed.net). So I lower the possibility to let them hurt me, so they wont do any damage and I should survive BUT I may have wrong on this one...I am considering the auto-leveling of attributes...the are depend on characters... This was my first build with Sierra ... put all in stamina... now I did a second build all in strength... I like to keep it single... choose one attribute all the way... I did that on Diablo too... 3)Combo 2: Radiant Pillar + Baneful Smite and/or Hallowed Restoration - would you care to elaborate how do you combine these 2? Radiant pillar can be cast anywhere on the field and baneful smite requires you to select a target for it. In my opinion the combo will just stop working after you place the pillar unless you click on a mob because baneful smite can't just target itself. Generally you can attack with baneful smite and cast a pillar on the same spot (because this is what I suppose the reversed combo will do - first smite then pillar), but is it worth it? Baneful smite is the basic attack (striking 1 or 2 targets) for celestial magic oriented seraphim, while Radiant pillar is much more crowd-control oriented. I don't see how these 2 mix in a combo. Generally, you can stack a bunch of skills and still have a combo, but its overall usefulness is another thing. My question here is: Did it work for you at all, and if it did, how? I use combos most of the times to attack to crowd. So Radiant Pillar will do the job as it is first and always is casted. The second is a backup art if the first mob selected with radiant pillar is not dead. And yes will do the damage because I executed it on a mob. So idea is use the first art in combo always as it would if it were not in a combo and have the second for free and optional (you can stop the combo by doing another combat art casting) 4)I don't see Constitution here. When you enter niobium and mobs are 15+ levels above you (it will be more) and feel them hitting like a ten ton truck, the lower amounts of hit points will be a serious downfall. Even a mixed melee-caster build like the one you posted needs more hit points. I consider on taking Constitution for the two free skills only in close-combat characters (all of my characters are with first aspect). This skill for Seraphim is not needed until gold (will be picked up at level 50 or 65). So I suggest to take this later in the game ...ranged though do not need that (e.g. BFG Sierra). 5)Combo 2: Cobalt Strike + Magic Coup and /or Shadow Step - I don't see how both these combination will work. Cobalt strike is best used at range. As Cobalt strike is supposed to work at range, so Magic coup is a close combat CA. It may work, but you are required to allow mobs to get close to you... And at later difficulties this will be dangerous, because you will be low on both armor and HP. Cobalt strike + Shadow step MAY make a good combo, but for it to work effectively you must be COMPLETELY surrounded by mobs in order for the chain lightning to hit as many targets and the explosion mod on the shadow step (provided you took it) to finish them off. However, this is a risky ploy, because with this build you'll have low armor rating, and allowing too many opponents to get to you may mean death at later difficulties. Now the same question... How did you manage to combine these two? Well you see only the one aspect standalone. But think that when I execute this combo I have Cascading Shroud active (with Inconspicuous - Reduces the chance to be detected by opponents Mod)... so I am killing one two or more (by third mod) with cobalt strike, I kill closed with magic coup and I take NO hit and the good on that: Casting Cascading Shroud will not harm timers on cobalt strike + magic coup combo... same goes for the other two combar arts pair (Combo 1: Glacial Thorns + Frost Flare and / or Raging Nimbus + Combar Art 3: Expulse Magic) acting as a Combo of the two and think that as a general scenario with the HE paradigm (seconds are not precise): Ranged attack when enemy is far: a)Expulse Magic (60 seconds) b)Glacial Thorns + Frost Flare (10 seconds) Close attack when enemy is near: c)Cascading Shroud (60 seconds) (Explusive Magic still here as active d)cobalt strike + magic coup (10 seconds) (with both active auras) e)Glacial Thorns + Frost Flare (10 seconds) with both / one / or none auras f)cobalt strike + magic coup (10 seconds) g)Start over It is best to activate auras in a row independently from the combos which will have their own pair (attack ranged - close - ranged -close) etc 6)I'm VERY, VERY, VERY sorry if I was harsh here and there... I can assure you I have over 30 chars with various builds on my PC which I made with unmodded balance.txt file and from scratch in order to ascertain the usefulness and the easy-going of the various builds after the initial char tests with modded balance.txt (which I deleted afterwards), so I'm not just doing some plain chattering to give my fingers a good exercise. I'm speaking entirely from my personal experience with both these chars (close combat seraphim, stormite oriented HE) which I have at 120+ level in HC SP, both dead. I can tell you that a build without constitution is a lost cause in niobium. You can expect to die a lot of times. Without good stuff to fill your free sockets, you are better off without them - and this requires you to have a char with high bargaining in order to shop some useful rings and amulets. In addition to that, you can shop rare items that can be better than most of the set or unique items. My HC stormite-oriented HE had a rare breastplate with 180+ def, +8 all skills +7 to defensive skills and 2 silver sockets, which I filled with 2x +8 all skills rings - this is +24 all skills coming from this item only (not taking into account the +def skills bonus). Even this didn't help in niobium and she died, overwhelmed by various mobs in the Wastelands because I lacked good armor rating (I had like 5k at that time). I didn't even had the time to shadow step away or drink a pot. BB HC 127 level Stormite-oriented HE. This is why in my other stormite-build posts I strongly emphasized on shield lore. A HE needs the extra defense. BADLY. The same goes for the close-combat seraphim. Without constitution she's as good as dead if she's swarmed in niobium. For that reason, in my opinion, a close-combat seraphim needs consitution and revered tech focus (at least) for hp regen in combat and a good warding shield. These 2 can save your life - at least till you hit F12 or save and exit. Well, that is from the HC point of view... As for Bargaining I wont say no ( it is just a personal preference....but I have good items because of high SB but surely bargaining will give me better). The rule though for General skills it is the same: if I have Seraphim I would pick up Riding,Enhanced Perception or Divine Devotion. Not Bargaining, I would left that for HE or Inquisitor. My HE is with shield also and one handed rod/stave... the two-handed is used in some cases during the game... Again I am thinking in a very offensive way ... your approach is defensive... maybe you try a more offensive build? The questions you have to ask yourself are: 1)Why the developers have divide skill in primary and secondary?Do they know the weaknesses of a character? 2)Why they choose pole-arms as primary for sierra and do not give her Hafted Weapons (is it just a coincidence that most Hafted have attributes for SW)? 3)Why some of the combat arts of same aspect have exactly or similar regeneration times? Do they do a perfect time-wise combo? 4)Why the percentage of attributes in auto-leveling is different? Which attribute should be supported ? Edited March 10, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) I will answer and ask as well I like the nice debate it's arising. I'm more than confident it will help a lot of players who would take the time to read it 1)Why the developers have divide skill in primary and secondary?Do they know the weaknesses of a character? -> Absolutely. Primary skills are generally based on the things a char can do best (or what he can be) in their eyes: take the dryad, for example, she's a hunter, so she values agility more than armor, this is why armor is in the second half of the tree and combat reflexes are in the first half. The Inquisitor can't use a shield, and he should be brutal by definition, this is why he has dual wield in the first half of the tree. The HE has very few defensive skills, because she's supposed to be a powerful, but fragile, caster. The SW has armor and shield lore skills in the first half - he's born to be a tank. I guess they just wanted to give an image to each char as what he or she has to be. 2)Why they choose pole-arms as primary for sierra and do not give her Hafted Weapons (is it just a coincidence that most Hafted have attributes for SW)? Maybe the polearm lore stuff sort of derives from Sacred 1. In addition to that, I think that the developers see hafted weapons as the "bad" weapons - this is why the Inquisitor has it, the SW (he's a baddie by definition, although he can start on the path of light) and the TG (let me remind you that TG's were bad in the war described in the intro). Doesn't it strike you as odd that the first three picks (the girls) are supposed to be good and the remaining three (the boys) are supposed to be bad? The girls don't get hafted lore, while the boys get it. Interesting 3)Why some of the combat arts of same aspect have exactly or similar regeneration times? Do they do a perfect time-wise combo? The general combat art regeneration times are based on the time it is supposed to be cast by definition (probably the viewpoint of some ascaron employee). However, this term is sort of loosely used. Once you seriously improve the CA regen times, you will start seeing differences. For example, my celestial-oriented seraphim can have like 6 radiant pillars at the same time, because I managed to drop the regen time quite a bit (to about 1.8-2.0 seconds), and I'm pushing it down further. My Pyro-based HE has a regen time on the Fireball like 0.6 seconds at max CA level and tempest and shower are at less than 2 seconds. I don't see much of a reason here, because If I keep on pumping points into focus, the times will get even lower 4)Why the percentage of attributes in auto-leveling is different? Which attribute should be supported ? Each char starts with a different set of attributes. Attributes will increase 10% of the base starting value each level. As far as survival bonus is concerned, it is capped at 32,5-33% on each attribute at most. This is the article that should help you: http://sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Attributes Now, time to start asking and analyzing. 1. I noticed that you still haven't taken celestial focus. What are your regeneration times at this point on the celestial tree? Aren't they too high? In my opinion pillar must be kept at 3.0s at most in order for it to be effective, for example, because the best damage is achieved when you manage to stack 3-4 pillars at close proximity and lure the mobs there. 2. About the aspects, it seems that doing this spreads your skill points a little thin. Besides, I think that any Aspect's focus is equally as important as the lore, since it directly reduces the regeneration time for the Combat Arts in that aspect, allowing you to earn more levels in it without increasing the regen times too much. I see you put a most of the points in celestial lore for CA damage and Tactics lore for hit damage. These are 2 major skills, agreed. However, in order for this build to be useful, you will need to add celestial focus and start adding points in exalted focus regularly, and let's not forget that you have constitution upcoming as well (which you will want to have at 75 ASAP for the mastery). Do you think you can manage? 3. More like a caution, not a question You said: "The basic idea is to do quick massive damage before anyone can touch you. And if he touches you for once then you will have killed him at the same time with second massive damage." -> In platinum and niobium things change. Unless you manage to get your damage up to, say, 3000+ per swing in platinum, there is no more 1-hitting, and most of the melee builds will suffer from that. In niobium even higher damage is required, since your survival bonus will increase the enemies levels even further. This calls for a certain protection too, unless you manage to get that much damage and you're able to swing really fast. Right now in platinum, a blazing tempest with 2.7k base damage (it's over the max CA level I"m allowed) isn't enough to kill a kobold, although the fire damage over time finishes it off in the next second. Just for a reference 4. Glacial thorns + frost flare together at 10s recast time for a combo is way too much. At standalone, frost flare shouldn't get over 2s and glacial thorns shouldn't get over 2.5s recast time. This gives you an absolute cap of 5s at most. 10 is way too much, and if you managed to get yourself surrounded by tough mobs (as it will happen a lot of times in platinum and niobium), you are in some serious trouble. 5. Cobalt strike + Magic Coup = 10s - again, it's waaaaay to much. You will need to find a way to reduce it. The normal recast time for cobalt strike at lower difficulties should be 1.5-2.0s at most in order for it to be effective. Magic coup should be around that time as well (preferably lower than 1s later on in order to do constant hits with magic coup, which is the basis for the Magic Coup HE build, and since you have staves, you will most certainly need this). So the Combo should stand at 4.0-4.5s at most in order for it to be effective. You will also need tactics lore for damage, otherwise the coup will be vastly underpowered. 6. Please keep in mind that although cascading shroud is a wonderful thing to have, in niobium a lot of mobs get diverse damage (like physical + fire + another type). Even with the proper mod, like the reduction in the vulnerability to fire effects, the fire damage you take will be a serious problem, and unless you take constitution as well for more HP, you are in for a trouble. Just be careful 7. As for bargaining, generally 1 char with this skill will suffice, yes. I was saying that because I though you would rule out all general skills, which would be a shame Here I have a question though. Do you really find Divine devotion useful? In my opinion it was always a wasted pick. Few god powers are worth having, and I see you picked Lumen as a god. Although his power is nice, it will take a lot of investment in order to reduce the duration to a respectable time. Even at skill level 200, it's 78% reduction. Let's say 80%. This will still leave the god power at 180s recharge time. Base is 900, 4/5 of it is 720, 180 left. 3 minutes... quite a lot 8. You said: "My HE is with shield also and one handed rod/stave... the two-handed is used in some cases during the game... Again I am thinking in a very offensive way ... your approach is defensive... maybe you try a more offensive build?" -> With all due respect - my approach is as offensive as it can get. My idea is to have wickedly low regeneration times that will allow me to spam as much CAs as possible for a very short time. Take a look at Kahlan here: http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?sh...60&start=60 That picture is sort of old, I need to update it, since she's way over 67, but take look at the damage: -> 13x7.1k damage from incendiary shower (2.5 seconds regen time - last time I saw it it was 1.7), less than 1 second fireball for 2x6.2k damage (0.6s now), 2.5 second tempest with 2.7k initial and 5.7k DoT per second (last time I saw it yesterday it was 1.8s regen time) Would you care to say that this is not offensive? -> If you mean offensive like close combat, I have a magic coup build. It's fun actually, because the HE is sort of low on attack rating and requires sword lore, tactics lore, speed lore and such to compensate for that. However, the damage is still weak and she's still way behind Pyro oriented HE in terms of usefulness. But I cannot dismiss the fact that this build is fun, hands down. Let me start the game and check on my Stormite-oriented HE. Since the HC one died, these are the regen times on the new one: Frost flare - 2.1s Glacial Thorns - 2.2s (242 damage/85 thorns) I'm adding a screenie to help you get a good look at her. She's 26 now, in silver, hinting and doing quests with a lot of + XP per kill gear (this is why I have various items on her: I have 3 picks left, which should have been Constitution, Combat Discipline and Shield lore. However, I will re-roll her - I shouldn't have chosen bargaining since the pyro oriented HE has it. I think combat reflexes or riding will make a nice addition to the build. I'm really enjoying this debate you know Edited March 10, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Ok I have updated first post with a SW example To sum up for the first (4) notes of previous post: 1)Skills chosen is clear (get as many as primary first), except the fact that constitution in your opinion suits to all characters as mandatory (correct me if I am wrong) 2)I did not pay attention to the hafted vs sword (boys vs girls) (HE starts with sword also), it is clever you have seeing that way... but what I wanted to mention mostly is the fact that again primary weapon skills will lead you to choose the weapon lore that suits the character. For example you won't find easy a polearm with attributes for HE or SW (and I do not mean uniques, but rare items). Also staves have attributes for Inquisitor and HE most of the times 3)I will try to weaken the combat arts and put some point to focuses. I want to see the difference you are talking about, means playing always with combat arts? The thing here is that I choose to have high regen times but higher damage vs low regen times and lower damage (your suggestion) I think like you said with 'I don't see much of a reason here, because If I keep on pumping points into focus, the times will get even lower' that a nice balance should be kept here... Not to much on focus nor too much on lore... Do you use the left click attack at all? 4)I leave the attributes topic for now (I am at work no wiki access) and come back later Now to the next part: Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) 1. I noticed that you still haven't taken celestial focus. What are your regeneration times at this point on the celestial tree? Aren't they too high? In my opinion pillar must be kept at 3.0s at most in order for it to be effective, for example, because the best damage is achieved when you manage to stack 3-4 pillars at close proximity and lure the mobs there. Yes, it is high regen, surely 10+ seconds and I will change this. But I think the regeneration time should be kept to the time where the pillar extinguish (5-6 sec?) in order to always have one to fill in the same place (more damage than 2-3 there) 2. About the aspects, it seems that doing this spreads your skill points a little thin. Besides, I think that any Aspect's focus is equally as important as the lore, since it directly reduces the regeneration time for the Combat Arts in that aspect, allowing you to earn more levels in it without increasing the regen times too much. I see you put a most of the points in celestial lore for CA damage and Tactics lore for hit damage. These are 2 major skills, agreed. However, in order for this build to be useful, you will need to add celestial focus and start adding points in exalted focus regularly, and let's not forget that you have constitution upcoming as well (which you will want to have at 75 ASAP for the mastery). Do you think you can manage? We are having exact point as previous notes. I put most on lore less on focus. A balance as mentioned is what I might not doing well in your opinion. Remember though, that I did write about how to assign skill points per level but that was not the general guide' s approach but my approach. So, I am thinking that I do not always put points on focus (if regen is good) neither lore (if I do damage a lot or having a level cap) and there I will have a room for other skills (which I also do it at early level) I need a calculator for that But you suggest that if I want two aspects then the secondary one should be more as a support to the first. If that is the case I would choose only focus then for secondary, moding the buff and long term combart art and replace the one combo from that aspect with a combart art from primary aspect...(that is what you prefer I think).... Well, if it works better this way, then in General Guide it suits that never have two lores. Do you disagree also on having two buffs for all characters? Clear is that we agree on having pair of lore + focus as skills. 3)In platinum and niobium things change. Unless you manage to get your damage up to, say, 3000+ per swing in platinum, there is no more 1-hitting, and most of the melee builds will suffer from that. In niobium even higher damage is required, since your survival bonus will increase the enemies levels even further. This calls for a certain protection too, unless you manage to get that much damage and you're able to swing really fast. Right now in platinum, a blazing tempest with 2.7k base damage (it's over the max CA level I"m allowed) isn't enough to kill a kobold, although the fire damage over time finishes it off in the next second. Just for a reference You should be right on this, I do not know yet. So, constitution and defense are critical here and of course I have to raise my damage with them! (my headache) 4)Glacial thorns + frost flare together at 10s recast time for a combo is way too much. At standalone, frost flare shouldn't get over 2s and glacial thorns shouldn't get over 2.5s recast time. This gives you an absolute cap of 5s at most. 10 is way too much, and if you managed to get yourself surrounded by tough mobs (as it will happen a lot of times in platinum and niobium), you are in some serious trouble. On a combo the cap is 2.5 (that of glacial thorns). Ok same here decrease regen and see how it goes, but I have to break the lore a bit to steal points from there It seems to me though even putting more points to focus it will have lower than low even though I saw your build where the same on both focus and lore (but you have one aspect) 5)Cobalt strike + Magic Coup = 10s - again, it's waaaaay to much. You will need to find a way to reduce it. The normal recast time for cobalt strike at lower difficulties should be 1.5-2.0s at most in order for it to be effective. Magic coup should be around that time as well (preferably lower than 1s later on in order to do constant hits with magic coup, which is the basis for the Magic Coup HE build, and since you have staves, you will most certainly need this). So the Combo should stand at 4.0-4.5s at most in order for it to be effective. You will also need tactics lore for damage, otherwise the coup will be vastly underpowered. I have read that Tactics Lore is for Magic Coup in a thread here but was not so clear (and since you are saying that also) I will remove it from the combo since tactics lore is not of my interest and leave Cobalt Strike with Shadow Step (or without it). But first again I will decrease regen times with focus vs lore level 6)Please keep in mind that although cascading shroud is a wonderful thing to have, in niobium a lot of mobs get diverse damage (like physical + fire + another type). Even with the proper mod, like the reduction in the vulnerability to fire effects, the fire damage you take will be a serious problem, and unless you take constitution as well for more HP, you are in for a trouble. Just be careful I thought the fire protect mod will do the job and had me untouched all the time... But problem will be mostly on seraphim island in caves... Grand Invigoration is modded with -Life : Increases lifepoints regeneration & -Resilience : Reduces harmful effects and duration. Are they not enough along with Constitution (if I finally take it)? 7)As for bargaining, generally 1 char with this skill will suffice, yes. I was saying that because I though you would rule out all general skills, which would be a shame 1smile.gif Here I have a question though. Do you really find Divine devotion useful? In my opinion it was always a wasted pick. Few god powers are worth having, and I see you picked Lumen as a god. Although his power is nice, it will take a lot of investment in order to reduce the duration to a respectable time. Even at skill level 200, it's 78% reduction. Let's say 80%. This will still leave the god power at 180s recharge time. Base is 900, 4/5 of it is 720, 180 left. 3 minutes... quite a lot sad.gif I agree on that. I never play with Divine Devotion. I really forget it exists! The general rule though it is that primary General Skills are suggested. If someone wants to take General Skills he should take only primary and not all of them, just like what it is suggested with Weapon Lore (one at most weapon, with an exception to have also the dual wield) (I choose only dual wield in my builds not also a sword lore for example) 8)With all due respect - my approach is as offensive as it can get. My idea is to have wickedly low regeneration times that will allow me to spam as much CAs as possible for a very short time. Take a look at Kahlan here: http://darkmatters.org/forums/index.php?sh...60&start=60 That picture is sort of old, I need to update it, since she's way over 67, but take look at the damage: -> 13x7.1k damage from incendiary shower (2.5 seconds regen time - last time I saw it it was 1.7), less than 1 second fireball for 2x6.2k damage (0.6s now), 2.5 second tempest with 2.7k initial and 5.7k DoT per second (last time I saw it yesterday it was 1.8s regen time) Would you care to say that this is not offensive? -> If you mean offensive like close combat, I have a magic coup build. It's fun actually, because the HE is sort of low on attack rating and requires sword lore, tactics lore, speed lore and such to compensate for that. However, the damage is still weak and she's still way behind Pyro oriented HE in terms of usefulness. But I cannot dismiss the fact that this build is fun, hands down. Clear on that (regen time again low vs high) but I have a suggestion to make. Instead of having two characters with General Approach the build here is Pyromancer + Arcania - one character. The reason for this suggestion and a question is that: what the pyromancer-only character can do in fire immunity mods/bosses? And by meaning offensive means do more damage, irrelevant how I do it (closed/ranged/weapon/spell) You can take: Tactics Lore for magic coup + 4 Skills of Aspects + sword/stave + concentration + armor lore and 3 more from combat discipline/ancient magic/shield/constitution) Please read careful the bolded one text, which does not agree entirely with last HE suggestion build (I have read it many times all post and I changed it a bit).... Great work here ... that what I am trying to do here is to make a general approach and sometimes though your questions are character specific may lead me to generalize the conclusions. That is the way of thinking here... and I am open-minded for suggestion on generalization and there I need most of your help.... Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Ok, here it goes 1)Skills chosen is clear (get as many as primary first), except the fact that constitution in your opinion suits to all characters as mandatory (correct me if I am wrong) -> No correction required here HP regen in combat is a lifesaver for pretty much any class. This is why I think it's a MUST have skill for any build. Just like armor lore. 2) This is a link as to what weapons each character can use: http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Weapons 3)I will try to weaken the combat arts and put some point to focuses. I want to see the difference you are talking about, means playing always with combat arts? The thing here is that I choose to have high regen times but higher damage vs low regen times and lower damage (your suggestion) -> Later on in the game (like in platinum and niobium) combat arts will become your bread and butter offensive skills. When even the simplest kobolds have 3-4K HP, one or 2 swings may not be enough to kill even one of them. For example, for a close combat oriented seraphim skills like Pelting strikes and Soul Hammer will be used constantly to boost the damage. This is because mobs will get even higher than your level, and besides, the game is just way too easy up until level 75 or so. It is over level 100 in niobium when your build actually starts to count and proves its usefulness 4) But I think the regeneration time should be kept to the time where the pillar extinguish (5-6 sec?) in order to always have one to fill in the same place (more damage than 2-3 there) -> Several Pillars in close proximity outweigh the damage of only one. Let's do a little math. Let's say you have a pillar at CA level 10 that does, for example, 300 damage per second and has a 6s recast time. I have a pillar at CA level 5 that does 150 damage per second with 2s recast time and 10s duration (because of a mod). You will be able to cast 1 every 6 seconds. I will be able to maintain 4 or 5, each dealing 150 points of damage at the same time. I would take the 4x150 over the 1x300 damage anytime. Right now I can keep like 5-6 pillars that draw enemies into them, sometimes turning this into a nice mob pinball game! Rather sweet I will give you a pic with my pillar so far (on a 35 level Celestial-oriented seraphim): Check the regen time and the duration and I hope this will prove my point. 5) A balance as mentioned is what I might not doing well in your opinion. -> My point, exactly. Later on in the game a balance between damage and regeneration time is crucial. When you get swarmed by 15 hard-hitting mobs, there may be no time to wait out that 6 second duration to recast. You will be needing one now, or you'll need to run for your life. 6) Do you use the left click attack at all? -> Um, no Maybe only on my BFG seraphim? For example, I really like playing a 2-handed sword or Polearm Seraphim with a Soul Hammer at 0.5-1s regen time. This allows me to slap pretty much any mob for more damage at each swing. 7) Tactics Lore for magic coup + 4 Skills of Aspects + sword/stave + concentration + armor lore and 3 more from combat discipline/ancient magic/shield/constitution) -> The build is great, but skill point distribution will be an issue. Which aspect will be your primary? How often you will put points in tactics lore and the weapon lore? Keep in mind that the HE's hit rating sucks at higher difficulties, because she has no buff or skill to boost it, so you need heavy investment in weapon lore + tactics lore + speed lore to compensate for that. 8) Do you disagree also on having two buffs for all characters? -> Not at all. A lot of builds require 2-3 buffs to be effective. I never said I disagree with having buffs. I just said that the stormite HE has only 2 useful buffs. 9) If that is the case I would choose only focus then for secondary, modding the buff and long term combat art and replace the one combo from that aspect with a combat art from primary aspect...(that is what you prefer I think).... -> absolutely. Generally, spreading yourself between 2 major CA trees always leaves you a little thin on skill points, and generally, one of them will always lag behind. Taking a focus will allow you to get that CA tree's buff and mod the necessary skills and probably add a lore to it later on if you so desire (though I personally wouldn't do that). e.g.: if I want to make a magic coup build, I would do it like this: level 2 -> Delphic Lore (cobalt strike is good enough to get me through the first 15-20 levels) level 3 -> Concentration level 5 -> Delphic Focus level 8 -> Tactics Lore - will increase the basic damage, but not the coup damage. Will increase the damage for ordinary swings though - but it can be substituted for something else level 12 -> Sword Lore level 18 -> Armor Lore level 25 -> Mystic Stormite Focus (to use and mod crystal skin + cascading shroud), can be subbed for arrant pyro focus for incandescent skin level 25 -> Speed lore level 50 -> Constitution level 65 -> Shield lore I've got to check if it is the same as the magic coup build for the HE in the guides forum (I don't want to take credit for something that isn't mine), but that's how I'd do it. Edited March 11, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) 1)-> No correction required here HP regen in combat is a lifesaver for pretty much any class. This is why I think it's a MUST have skill for any build. Just like armor lore. Concentration added also. 2) This is a link as to what weapons each character can use: http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Weapons I have seen this but since I have not wiki I will come to this later again... Let me detailing what suits best in my opinion per weapon type: 1)One-hand sword->Dual Wield Inquisitor/HE/TG 2)Two-hand swords->Seraphim 3)One-hand Hafted->SW/Inquisitor 4)Two-hand Hafted-> SW 5)One -hand Staves->HE/Inquisitor 6)Two-handed Staves->HE 7)Ranged Bow/Pipe/Sword/2-slot Sword (all need dexterity for +dmg bonus)->Dryad 8)Ranged Pistols/Staves-> TG 9)Polearms->Seraphim I would give TG hafted also but since I play Hafted with SW and Staves with HE, the sword lore goes to TG only (and seraphim) 3)-> Later on in the game (like in platinum and niobium) combat arts will become your bread and butter offensive skills. When even the simplest kobolds have 3-4K HP, one or 2 swings may not be enough to kill even one of them. For example, for a close combat oriented seraphim skills like Pelting strikes and Soul Hammer will be used constantly to boost the damage. This is because mobs will get even higher than your level, and besides, the game is just way too easy up until level 75 or so. It is over level 100 in niobium when your build actually starts to count and proves its usefulness Ok, though I will test it earlier in game 4) But I think the regeneration time should be kept to the time where the pillar extinguish (5-6 sec?) in order to always have one to fill in the same place (more damage than 2-3 there) -> Several Pillars in close proximity outweigh the damage of only one. Let's do a little math. Let's say you have a pillar at CA level 10 that does, for example, 300 damage per second and has a 6s recast time. I have a pillar at CA level 5 that does 150 damage per second with 2s recast time and 10s duration (because of a mod). You will be able to cast 1 every 6 seconds. I will be able to maintain 4 or 5, each dealing 150 points of damage at the same time. I would take the 4x150 over the 1x300 damage anytime. Right now I can keep like 5-6 pillars that draw enemies into them, sometimes turning this into a nice mob pinball game! Rather sweet I will give you a pic with my pillar so far (on a 35 level Celestial-oriented seraphim): Check the regen time and the duration and I hope this will prove my point. If that is the case, and if I have calculated correctly the regen-time should never exceed that of base start-up time (level 1)? 5) A balance as mentioned is what I might not doing well in your opinion. -> My point, exactly. Later on in the game a balance between damage and regeneration time is crucial. When you get swarmed by 15 hard-hitting mobs, there may be no time to wait out that 6 second duration to recast. You will be needing one now, or you'll need to run for your life. So, again the balance is the base regen time? 6) Do you use the left click attack at all? -> Um, no Maybe only on my BFG seraphim? For example, I really like playing a 2-handed sword or Polearm Seraphim with a Soul Hammer at 0.5-1s regen time. This allows me to slap pretty much any mob for more damage at each swing. No comment I really like an answer for generalizing: 1) Secondary Aspect always in support role (meaning no Lore taken) so as to attack only with primary? If yes, then SW is out of it when taking 2 first aspect because he has Tactics lore in common. After all, in that case with supporting Aspect we just do not have the second lore. One skill less. This will go then in an additional secondary (constitution for example). 2)Which skills should take the mastery in general? 3)After the mastery should I give more points to them or try to master another? Weapon/Attributes/Mastery are left for now to close the guide for me... I will re-edit the guide in concurrent with in-game trial some-time soon... Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Ok, let me answer your questions: 1) If that is the case, and if I have calculated correctly the regen-time should never exceed that of base start-up time (level 1)? -> No. I always use a common sense when I decide what my regeneration times should be. This is based on how often do I use that CA, is it my primary or my secondary CA. I want my primary CA to be within 1.5-2.0s regen time in order to cast it quickly and often. My secondary CA can be from 2.0 to 3.0s, since I will cast it less often. However, for the Stormite aspect, I find myself using both Frost flare and Glacial Thorns, so I try to keep their regen times at 2.0s at most. This is also true for the melee and ranged chars as well. Having a Seraphim constantly slapping soul hammers, a SW battering the enemy with demonic blows, a TG with constant dedicated blows is just grand - and in addition to that, since they directly improve the damage, the CA level may not be that high - just enough to use it once per second, for example. The mobs will die, and never know what hit them. 2) So, again the balance is the base regen time? ->um, no. The balance is between the damage you inflict to the mobs you're hunting now and your best judgment for how much the regeneration time should be. There isn't much point in using a level 1 CA at level 40 mobs. For example, for the mystic stormite aspect, frost flare must inflict just enough damage to a single mob that will allow the damage over time to kill it afterwards while keeping the CA at 2.0s max regen time (later on it will increase in damage and it may get to be 1-shot). For glacial thorns my task is to drop 60-75% (preferably better - later on with enough investment it's pretty much 1-shot) of multiple targets' health so that the second one finishes them off - while keeping it within 2.0s max regen time. 3) Secondary Aspect always in support role (meaning no Lore taken) so as to attack only with primary? -> Yes. This way you don't overburden you skill point distribution and you always keep your primary aspect at top level (equal to your char's level). This is because you always put 2 points in your primary aspect and have 1-3 points (depending on your level) to support it - like adding into armor lore, ancient magic, combat discipline, or the focus for the secondary aspect that gives you buffs and utility skills. This is entirely valid for the HE and the Seraphim, for instance. Pyro or Stormite oriented HE's cannot go without delphic focus - grand invigoration is a must and shadow step is a life saver. Pretty much any seraphim (close combat, ranged, caster) will benefit from the Revered Tech aspect, as it has 2 very important Combat Arts - the warding energy buff and Divine protection - both of which lets her last a bit longer. Even the BFG seraphim (revered tech oriented) can benefit from taking the exalted warrior focus just to get some damage boost from soul hammer and pelting strikes, as well as dashing alacrity and of course, Battle stance. In such cases lore for the secondary aspect is not needed - the main function of the secondary aspect is to boost and support the primary one - not inflict damage. For example, there isn't much sense in having 3k initial + 5k per second DoT damage by blazing tempest (multi-hit pretty much anything on the screen) and much weaker glacial thorns (like 1000 damage per thorn), just because you're using Pyro + Stormite and you're adding points to both lores. In that case, Stormite lore is a wasted pick. Even if an enemy has fire resist, it will not be absolute. It may take a few more casts but it will drop down. This is true for niobium as well. If yes, then SW is out of it when taking 2 first aspect because he has Tactics lore in common. -> this is not true. SW has much more different play style from pretty much any other char. A SW can mod all of his CAs in a record time. With a SW you can take on 2-3 aspects and still feel well, because the only thing he has is focuses (save for astral warrior). Besides, his CA trees complement each other perfectly - like Death warrior + malevolent champion (2 aspects, 2 skill picks), or astral lord + malevolent champion (2 aspects, 3 skill picks). SW is pretty much the best char to balance in Sacred 2. I think he has only focuses, because if there was some sort of Death warrior lore or Malevolent champion lore, he would be the best all-round char and pretty much overpowered - because he has Ancient magic as well! There wouldn't be much point in playing the other chars. 4) Which skills should take the mastery in general? -> depends on the character. A caster would want to have maxed: preferred aspect lore + focus, ancient magic, combat discipline (provided he/she has them, because for example, the caster seraphim doesn't have ancient magic). A close combat fighter would want maxed: the aspect's focus (and lore if it has one), tactics lore, the weapon's or dual wield lore (the BFG seraphim is an exception, since the buff directly improves the ranged weapons skill) and constitution. Warding energy will also be nice to max if you're playing a Seraphim or a TG, because it's their way to survive longer. A ranged char would want to have ranged lore (bfg seraphim is an exception as I mentioned, she can keep ranged lore at 1 point the entire game), tactics lore, and a preferred aspect maxed. These maximizations are based on the fact that every build's general idea is to hit hard and survive longer. The remainder of the skills may remain from a moderate to high level - with the only exception being the specialized chars - if you have an item finder, smith, shopper, you would want to have the respective utility skills maxed as well. 5) After the mastery should I give more points to them or try to master another? -> Depends on the build. I'll try to go a bit in-depth here, but keep in mind that you have 921 points to distribute in total. ---> Caster - the skills that should go over the mastery level are your main offensive aspect, ancient magic (if you have it), combat discipline, and probably constitution and armor lore to provide higher survivability. For a celestial oriented seraphim, since there is no ancient magic, warding energy lore or another defensive skill (like combat reflexes or toughness) will be nice to improve in its place. ---> Close combat - the skills that should go over the mastery level are your main offensive aspect, tactics lore (you can never have enough damage and crit chance), your preferred weapon lore or dual wield lore and constitution. Other skills you may want over 75 are toughness, combat reflexes, armor lore. ---> Ranged - the skills that should go over the mastery level are your main offensive aspect, tactics lore (you can never have enough damage and crit chance) and ranged lore. Constitution is nice to max, but since you don't need to go up close and personal with the mobs, it may be okay at 75 points (still, I'd use my best judgment depending on who's the ranged char), so probably combat reflexes, toughness or combat discipline should go over 75. -------> UTILITY - depending on the utility char, you will want bargaining and/or blacksmithing maxed as well. I think that covers it for now Edited March 11, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) 1 , 2) This approach works like this: For example casting Frost Flare timer runs also for Glacial Thorns and for Nimbus. So I cannot cast them together (which the combo does it but no combo here). That is why I assign them to combo. In your approach I cast CA per kind of Enemy (group CA1 + bosses-champions CA2) 3)Even the BFG seraphim (revered tech oriented) can benefit from taking the exalted warrior focus just to get some damage boost from soul hammer and pelting strikes, as well as dashing alacrity and of course, Battle stance. How? We were aggreed here to have revered tech lore, went well and now suggesting using soul hammer which depends on lore we won't take? Surely agree having dashing alacrity (aura) and battle stance as buff. 4)this is not true. SW has much more different play style from pretty much any other char. A SW can mod all of his CAs in a record time. With a SW you can take on 2-3 aspects and still feel well, because the only thing he has is focuses (save for astral warrior). Besides, his CA trees complement each other perfectly - like Death warrior + malevolent champion (2 aspects, 2 skill picks), or astral lord + malevolent champion (2 aspects, 3 skill picks). SW is pretty much the best char to balance in Sacred 2. I think he has only focuses, because if there was some sort of Death warrior lore or Malevolent champion lore, he would be the best all-round char and pretty much overpowered - because he has Ancient magic as well! There wouldn't be much point in playing the other chars. As far as SW we are saying the same with different words. He can have as primary two aspects (and two primary CA of different aspect) when choosing two Warrior + Malevolent because he has the tactics lore which will raise dmg from both aspects equally. You are forced somehow to use both aspects for CA. So thinking he has only Focuses is not well-defined to me. 5)-> depends on the character. A caster would want to have maxed: preferred aspect lore + focus, ancient magic, combat discipline (provided he/she has them, because for example, the caster seraphim doesn't have ancient magic). A close combat fighter would want maxed: the aspect's focus (and lore if it has one), tactics lore, the weapon's or dual wield lore (the BFG seraphim is an exception, since the buff directly improves the ranged weapons skill) and constitution. Warding energy will also be nice to max if you're playing a Seraphim or a TG, because it's their way to survive longer. A ranged char would want to have ranged lore (bfg seraphim is an exception as I mentioned, she can keep ranged lore at 1 point the entire game), tactics lore, and a preferred aspect maxed. These maximizations are based on the fact that every build's general idea is to hit hard and survive longer. The remainder of the skills may remain from a moderate to high level - with the only exception being the specialized chars - if you have an item finder, smith, shopper, you would want to have the respective utility skills maxed as well. Again here you are writing like Tactics Lore is a different than Astral Lore for example. To me it is the same if I have primary Death Warrior/Malevolent or Astral respectively. Both are lores, they do the same thing for their related aspect. Let me rephrase it as a question: Will direct close combat hit damage (no combat art) benefit from Tactics Lore? Magic coup needs Tactics Lore (as mentioned eariler) because of CA using not the staff hit with left click. In general skill points assigning is like I thought about it Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) You said: 1) In your approach I cast CA per kind of Enemy (group CA1 + bosses-champions CA2) -> Um, no. In my eyes, combat arts are divided into 3 major categories. The first one concerns CA that deal major damage to a single target (like soul hammer, demonic blow, dedicated blow, incendiary shower, baneful smite). The second one concerns CA that are crowd control - these are CAs that damage and/or cripple multiple opponents (like glacial thorns, for example, although it works well on bosses too, because bosses tend to be rather big mobs that can suffer a lot from a concentrated burst of thorns; clustering maelstrom and ruthless mutilation, as well as blazing tempest - although it has a DoT associated with it - are in that category too). The third one concerns CA that have a damage over time mod (blazing tempest, frost flare), which are used as cast and forget CAs - just cast it and turn your attention to other pressing matters while the DoT does it's job. The ones who do major damage to a single target should be the best boss-killers. The ones that have crowd control should be used against multiple opponents. The ones with DoT, should be used depending on the CA - for stacking damage over time against a single mob or the same for a multitude of mobs. The thing is that I'm not worried about micromanagement in combat. I'm used to it. I know which CAs I want to use in the various situations and my fingers usually do the work themselves rather than having to think about it first For that reason, I do not see how Frost flare can be a part of a combo with glacial thorns, because one of them is designed for sniping, the other one is designed for crowd control. On the other side, glacial thorns and raging nimbus can be both in a combo, since they are both crowd control spells and would work well together: the raging nimbus will attack and slow opponents within its range and glacial thorns will finish the slowed mobs off. 2) How? We were aggreed here to have revered tech lore, went well and now suggesting using soul hammer which depends on lore we won't take? -> exalted warrior focus doesn't have a lore associated with it, so taking it to benefit from any buffs or Combat Arts it has to offer is more than prudent for the BFG seraphim, since pelting strikes and soul hammer work with ranged weapons as well. This course of action is also valid for all chars that do not have a lore for their close combat-oriented aspect focuses - like the Temple guardian (devout guardian aspect), the Shadow Warrior (Death Warrior and Malevolent champion) and the Inquisitor (Gruesome Inquisitor). 3) As far as SW we are saying the same with different words; when choosing two Warrior + Malevolent because he has the tactics lore which will raise dmg from both aspects equally; You are forced somehow to use both aspects for CA. -> Agreed. However, in that case both aspects require only 2 points per level up to keep them maxed (or 3, if you have astral + malevolent, for example), while having 2 aspects with both lore and focus require 4 points per level up. That's a lot of skill points in my opinion... Most of them can go to better places if only 1 aspect is chosen and the other is supporting the first one only with a focus. 4) Again here you are writing like Tactics Lore is a different than Astral Lore for example. -> on that point, they are different. Tactics lore improves the damage of close combat or ranged hits directly, while astral lore has more magic-oriented combat arts than benefit from ancient magic rather than tactics lore. Besides, if you are going to play with shadow veil as a permanent buff, you wouldn't want to be detected by enemies, which rules out all close combat and ranged hits with weapons. In that case tactics lore won't be a good pick, since although it's used to mod malevolent champion, we won't be utilizing it. So this pick can be substituted for malevolent focus and still get the same result - benefiting from reduced CA regen times and higher CA level allowed as a bonus. 5) To me it is the same if I have primary Death Warrior/Malevolent or Astral respectively. Both are lores, they do the same thing for their related aspect. -> Death Warrior focus and Malevolent champion focus don't have lores, you know Only astral has it, which means you can have Death/Malevolent focus by wasting only 2 skill points per level rather than 4 (if there were lores associated with those focuses), leaving you 3 skill points to distribute in skills like constitution, armor lore, tactics lore and such. This is why the SW is so easy to balance and so easy to play. 6) Will direct close combat hit damage (no combat art) benefit from Tactics Lore? -> ABSOLUTELY. This is the main reason why people love Tactics lore so much. It directly improves the close combat and ranged damage and chance to get a critical hit when no combat arts are used. It's a must-have skill for any close or ranged combat char in this game. 7) Magic coup needs Tactics Lore (as mentioned eariler) because of CA using not the staff hit with left click. -> I agree with that if you're using direct attacks without a CA. However, it appears that the bonus from tactics lore is not taken into account when you're using the Magic coup CA, which is a problem. In that, I would do this: try to keep magic coup CA at 1s regen time and use it on every mob to benefit from the damage bonuses it offers and leave out Tactics lore. Why would I do that? -> the years of experience in Sacred 1 and Sacred 2 have unequivocally shown that a build, whether hardcore of softcore, is only as good as its useful skills and skill combination (not CA combos) in it. The more picks you have that do not work well with the other skills in the build, the worse your character will perform on the later difficulties. E.g. staves+tactics lore skills along with an Arrant Pyromancer build - although staves skill will open up some bonuses, it's way better to just cast a blazing tempest and wipe out all enemies in front of you, than go up close and start swinging at them with the staff. A question for you though... Aren't you over-obsessed with combos? In my eyes, combos are only useful when you take combat discipline and start benefiting from that skill to reduce the regen times and add damage. In that case, 1-CA combos will get a nice damage and regen time boost. Just add only 1 skill to the combo and watch the damage increase and the regen time drop. I just love playing with 1-CA combos, because they benefit a lot from CD and you get even more bang for your buck. Right, it requires a bit of micro-management, but who cares as long as the mobs drop dead? If I failed to answer something, please let me know Edited March 11, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) 1)-> Um, no. In my eyes, combat arts are divided into 3 major categories. The first one concerns CA that deal major damage to a single target (like soul hammer, demonic blow, dedicated blow, incendiary shower, baneful smite). The second one concerns CA that are crowd control - these are CAs that damage and/or cripple multiple opponents (like glacial thorns, for example, although it works well on bosses too, because bosses tend to be rather big mobs that can suffer a lot from a concentrated burst of thorns; clustering maelstrom and ruthless mutilation, as well as blazing tempest - although it has a DoT associated with it - are in that category too). The third one concerns CA that have a damage over time mod (blazing tempest, frost flare), which are used as cast and forget CAs - just cast it and turn your attention to other pressing matters while the DoT does it's job. The ones who do major damage to a single target should be the best boss-killers. The ones that have crowd control should be used against multiple opponents. The ones with DoT, should be used depending on the CA - for stacking damage over time against a single mob or the same for a multitude of mobs. The thing is that I'm not worried about micromanagement in combat. I'm used to it. I know which CAs I want to use in the various situations and my fingers usually do the work themselves rather than having to think about it first 1smile.gif In my eyes are three including long-term auras from both aspects. In most cases I would not suggest the damage over time (mortifying pilory for example) as standalone but ruther in combo with callous-execution CA2 (or not used at all) and for the same reason (cast + forget) I will choose aura for CA3. So in the HE build now: CA1 : Glacial + Nimbus CA2: Frost Flaire CA3: teleport or expulsive magic CA4: Cashcading Shroud 2)-> exalted warrior focus doesn't have a lore associated with it, so taking it to benefit from any buffs or Combat Arts it has to offer is more than prudent for the BFG seraphim, since pelting strikes and soul hammer work with ranged weapons as well. This course of action is also valid for all chars that do not have a lore for their close combat-oriented aspect focuses - like the Temple guardian (devout guardian aspect), the Shadow Warrior (Death Warrior and Malevolent champion) and the Inquisitor (Gruesome Inquisitor). No, it is the tactics lore for them. Increasing tactics lore will benefit also the damage of skill (physical damage). Is that wrong? I will test it when putting point to the tactics lore and leave skill level of CA untouched. I mean that like Celestial Lore increased dmg and chance to hit for Celestial Aspect, same does Tactics Lore for Exalted Warrior CA Forgot to mention that the non-full immunity to fire clears a lot the build of HE, since I thought that I have to do two kind of dmg, fire and magic or ice and magic that another reason for choosing 2 lores I feel like finding combos is a major interference on me ... they were not simplified in my mind... I guess you are right about obsession PS: I have wiki now let us discuss this to sum up A)This is a link as to what weapons each character can use: http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/Sacred_2:Weapons Well , I want to propose what best suits the character. Look the dexterity ones poles , shot swords, ranged... Will you give them to a SW and use Dexterity to increase their dmg? Do you except many ranged bows to have attributes for SW? Dryad is your friend here, period. Pole-arms in general are perfect for Dryad, SW and Serra...but in practice I have found a few for SW related B)About attributes some math: Let us not give any point. What will happen for example to Serra in level 100 (without SB in calculation so 10% multiplier): Strength Stamina Vitality Dexterity Intelligence Willpower Seraphim 22 + 220=242 25 + 250= 275 25+250=275 26+260 = 286 25 + 250 = 275 26 + 260 = 286 This means that Dexterity and Willpower will have more points difference per level from the other and Strength will not grow much per level So, autoleveling has done something for us: it is very hard to have strength in the same level with Dexterity and Willpower. Should someone balance all attributes so as to be equal if he can? So put more to strength, then to stamina, vitality, intelligence and lastly at Dexterity and Willpower? Should someone keep the same analogy in putting points, so reverse the previous and give most to Dexterity & Willpower less to Strength? Headache surely.... but I feel happy by choosing: Weapon based damage: look at the weapon table and put all points there (dexterity,strength,intelligence) Spell attack based (intelligence) I want to sum up on this by telling that except damage which is random - based on weapon hold all other are fixed and the auto-leveling is enough for me Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) 1) In most cases I would not suggest the damage over time (mortifying pilory for example) as standalone -> I would suggest Blazing tempest, which is a DoT as a standalone ANYTIME. Still, we should not make generalizations, because different chars have different skills. 2) No, it is the tactics lore for them. Increasing tactics lore will benefit also the damage of skill (physical damage). Is that wrong? -> No that's not wrong. HOWEVER, Tactics lore is a standalone lore, as is the weapon lore, the damage lore, speed lore, armor lore, shield lore, and such. Although many focuses benefit from it to some extend, it has separate properties, like directly increasing close-combat and ranged damage as well as the chance to get a critical hit - thus indirectly increasing the damage of the CAs that boost your general attack (like soul hammer, pelting strikes, demonic blow and such). There is no associated focus for tactics lore, so tactics lore + exalted warrior focus is not the same as stormite lore + stormite focus. Tactics lore does not work in the same manner as a specific aspect's lore, as it does not improve directly the damage, the chances to get a critical and the execution speed in a manner the specific lore does. For example, Tactics lore will give an overall damage and critical chance increase when using close combat and ranged weapons and weapon-based CAs, while the specified aspect's lore will improve the damage, the crit chance and the execution speed for that aspect. See the difference? I think we're saying the same thing here again, with different words and different reasoning However, it's very important to know that Tactics lore is a standalone lore, or many people may become mislead in thinking that if they use tactics lore along with a focus they'll get twice the boost. We're getting close to a conclusion here I think P.S> To answer your other question: Should someone balance all attributes so as to be equal if he can? So put more to strength, then to stamina, vitality, intelligence and lastly at Dexterity and Willpower? -> No. Close combat chars that utilize strength weapons would put most of the points in strength, but should not forget vitality and probably dexterity, if they don't have a nice buff that improves the attack rating well. For example, on my Devout-oriented Utility Temple guardian build I distribute the attribute points in the following manner: 60% in strength, 35% in vitality, 5% in dexterity. So if I have 100 attribute points, 60 will go to strength, 35 in vitality and 5 in dexterity to boost the attack rating a bit. Still, I wouldn't rule out the common sense, since the game may turn out differently for different chars. Should someone keep the same analogy in putting points, so reverse the previous and give most to Dexterity & Willpower less to Strength? -> Well, it depends on the character and the build. There are some chars that start with a lower willpower value, like the dryad and the inquisitor, and will get less willpower per level, which will leave them weak against magic attacks. There chars should require a little investment in willpower or the spell resistance skill (although in 2.34 spell resistance is sort of buggy, as it was pointed out in the forum). Spell attack based (dexterity) -> Spell attacks get a bonus to damage and spell intensity from intelligence. I'm sure you know that, so I guess that was mistyping Edited March 11, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Correct ...copy + paste I meant Intelligence... Ok the guide will be updated soon and I am very sure that will help me and I hope others for sure to start with. CA will be also suggested....I hope you won't fire a bolt on me for suggestions Few, with this in mind (one main aspect) I should have 18 characters (well 17 because of SW)! Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Well, I think we're doing some nice work here that will help the newcomers. There is nothing better to ease your going based on other players' experience rather than discovering everything on your own. Please keep in mind that I absolutely support the thing you're trying to do - this site was lacking such a guide, so I will do anything in my power to help you make it as useful as it can get. You really had a great idea, and taking the time to make it come true is most beneficial to the others, hands down. Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 One more question... long-term auras (like cashcading shroud, ) + buffs I hope they are not benefit from lore, or do they? (e.g I am checking now Untouchable Force of TG which does damage as a buff) Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 long-term auras (like cashcading shroud, ) + buffs I hope they are not benefit from lore, or do they? -> My experience shows that they don't benefit from it. While playing a stormite oriented HE, cascading shroud is still capped at 60s regen time and the bonuses improve only with CA level. As for the buffs, most of them have support status and the only thing that focus does for them is to reduce the regeneration penalty and allow for more CA levels. Different buffs do different stuff, but this seems to be the general idea. Pumping points into focus doesn't improve anything else but max CA levels and penalty from buffs. Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Most of them are supportive , but some do damage... for those it is not clear to me if they benefit from lore ... and TG Warden Aspect is the perfect example , so I think that should not concerned me for now for guide Edited March 11, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I have updated first post Starting yesterday the TG I have some thoughts about low regeneration time in primary aspect: For example Demonic Blow at level 1 is 5.0s and at level 2 7.0s In order to keep it at 5.0s at least and eat a second rune I have to: 1)Put points to focus and not as much as lore 2)Not use any buff or eat one rune for buffs and stay there So, I am thinking that the time to eat a rune is very critical. In the lore-based aspect build with bad regeneration time though (that I have followed till know) what concerned me was not to have level penalty from buffs (eating and skill was 7.6). Till I reach the penalty I eat constantly. You can see that from Seraphim aspect screen. So all aspect have its CAs at same level. Exception was the combo ones, which I have the skills assign so as both have the same regen time (you can see that also by looking combo radiant pillar + baneful smite level) And a test for you: Think a build with Seraphim having primary aspect the Celestial and supporting the Exalted Warrior and write it here so as to see if we are clear enough in first post .... To complete the guide a skill points assignment method is critical and you could help here, since using focus as primary investment is new to me Edited March 12, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 (edited) HE has been already built from scratch. Level 15. A nice combo is definitely Shadow Step + Expulse Magic. But I am thinking that any character who does not hit with his weapon should not take the respective weapon lore. In HE case of Stormite / Pyromance she would not benefit from Attack Speed/ Double hit (only from level which is not too critical) So I might leave Magic Staff/ Sword Lore out of HE. Same goes to other character that do not use the first aspect (No Tactics Lore taken also there). Even scenario with SW have 3rd aspect as primary suits in not taken Tactics Lore + any Weapon Lore. Edited March 14, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 (edited) And a test for you: Think a build with Seraphim having primary aspect the Celestial and supporting the Exalted Warrior and write it here so as to see if we are clear enough in first post .... -> In my opinion, the 2 don't match well. Celestial is caster oriented, while exalted warrior is close or range combat oriented. In my opinion, Exalted works well with tactics lore, speed lore and multiple defensive skills or in conjunction with the revered tech aspect. And besides, try level up a char with 2 aspects over level 120 (any char is good up until level 75), preferably without dying and give us some insight That's a good test. For example, try a Celestial + Exalted like this: level 2 -> Tactics Lore level 3 -> Concentration level 5 -> Sword/Polearm lore (you said you liked it - I would choose dual wield) level 8 -> Armor Lore level 12 -> Exalted Warrior Focus level 18 -> Celestial Lore level 25 -> Celestial Focus level 35 -> Constitution level 50 -> Toughness level 65 -> Combat Reflexes/Riding (riding helps further offset the higher regen times for the Celestial aspect with a proper mount) There you go. I'm really interested in seeing someone manage to mix good armor rating for close combat and low armor penalty to the regeneration times (HE is an exception, since her armor is generally low-regen time penalty). My opinion is that this build is going to have severe problems over level 100, because I surmise one of these things will happen: -> the regen times will remain very high because of the general armor penalty and insufficient investment in exalted warrior/celestial aspects -> the armor rating will be way too low for a close combat oriented seraphim -> one of the aspects will take precedence over the other and the other aspect's usefulness will be slim to none -> at some point the player will become confused which aspect is better, and the upcoming skill picks may prove to favor one of the aspects over the other What I'm trying to say is that it's EXTREMELY difficult to have a caster/melee character that will work effectively on the higher difficulties. After a point, you will start using this character either in close range or more as a caster. If you start using it in close range more, the celestial aspect's usefulness will start dwindling. If you get over-obsessed with radiant pillars and baneful smites, then the exalted warrior aspect will start losing its usefulness. What do you do then? It's all too well and good to mix aspects that benefit from each other - like Revered tech + Exalted Warrior; Celestial + Revered Tech; Astral + Malevolent champion (for Shadow Veil SW + Skeletons); death warrior + malevolent champion; Arrant Pyromancer/Mystic Stormite + Delphic arcania; Gruesome inquisition + Astute Supremacy/Nefarious Netherworld... But to mix aspects that require different game style - like close combat and casting - is a moot on the higher difficulties. The bottom line is, that so far you quoted chars that were under level 50. That is simply not enough to prove the usefulness of combos, build, etc. Actually, the biggest trial by fire for a build is in niobium in the tougher areas from level 150 to 200 where enemies can give you quite a lot of surprises (based on the info I'm sharing with a lot of friends on different servers). I must admit I still haven't gone over level 130 with any char - but if I propose a build, it took a lot of testing, a lot of research (skill usefulness, skill complement, CA usefulness, CA complement, etc), ladder comparison for similar builds and how well they went. Keep in mind that the ladder can give you a pretty good example of how well a build will go - just get a piece of paper, write down the build, open up the ladder standings, check all Seraphims, for example, see if there are similar or exactly as your build, and check how many times they have died in SC. Then do the same for HC - check if there are builds like yours, how far they went before dying. Edited March 14, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Spyrus 0 Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) What I'm trying to say is that it's EXTREMELY difficult to have a caster/melee character that will work effectively on the higher difficulties. After a point, you will start using this character either in close range or more as a caster. If you start using it in close range more, the celestial aspect's usefulness will start dwindling. If you get over-obsessed with radiant pillars and baneful smites, then the exalted warrior aspect will start losing its usefulness. What do you do then? It's all too well and good to mix aspects that benefit from each other - like Revered tech + Exalted Warrior; Celestial + Revered Tech; Astral + Malevolent champion (for Shadow Veil SW + Skeletons); death warrior + malevolent champion; Arrant Pyromancer/Mystic Stormite + Delphic arcania; Gruesome inquisition + Astute Supremacy/Nefarious Netherworld... But to mix aspects that require different game style - like close combat and casting - is a moot on the higher difficulties. About mixing aspects I have not tried all combination (6 characters * 3 primary = 18) of course. Proposed/false combination is a good note for the guide, because like I did, someone would though that it might works. By the proposed that you have written, I could say that the first 'combat/weapon based' aspect, can be chosen only as primary and can combined with almost any of the second and third 'casting ones' (with exception of Malevolen of SW which also is valid as supporting) An exception is only BFG Seraphim (if not taken buff BFG though Exalted Warrior is useless) The bottom line is, that so far you quoted chars that were under level 50. That is simply not enough to prove the usefulness of combos, build, etc. Actually, the biggest trial by fire for a build is in niobium in the tougher areas from level 150 to 200 where enemies can give you quite a lot of surprises (based on the info I'm sharing with a lot of friends on different servers). I must admit I still haven't gone over level 130 with any char - but if I propose a build, it took a lot of testing, a lot of research (skill usefulness, skill complement, CA usefulness, CA complement, etc), ladder comparison for similar builds and how well they went. Keep in mind that the ladder can give you a pretty good example of how well a build will go - just get a piece of paper, write down the build, open up the ladder standings, check all Seraphims, for example, see if there are similar or exactly as your build, and check how many times they have died in SC. Then do the same for HC - check if there are builds like yours, how far they went before dying. Dying is not a good factor. For example, only users who play up to their level can be safe. I mean that if your character is good you will enter a server with 10+ level up from yours to be challenged (and you die) That makes your character bad? NO, just you do not mind if dying. And if I see characters with a lot of playing hours sure they are 'chicken' That for SC, for HC it makes more sense to be careful Of course seeing a character with 1000 deaths is extreme scenario...he tried so many times to level up but is weak (there death count matters). I have checked the ladder when we were in first posts and I have seen many variations. Some do not use second aspect at all. They have extras like combat discipline/general skill/speed/damage lore. That is an alternative, which seems from ladder that it works. Edited March 15, 2009 by Spyrus Link to comment
Antitrust 32 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I agree, making caster/fighter hybrids is good only for early silver. They need different skills, stats and bonuses. Playing a caster without decent spell intensity is a bad idea, and how much of it can you fit near the bonuses to melee combat? Link to comment
Dobri 55 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 (edited) Ok, here goes... By the proposed that you have written, I could say that the first 'combat/weapon based' aspect, can be chosen only as primary -> Generally, yes. If you play close-combat, you cannot deprive yourself from any defense boosting skills. They are the very means of survival for pretty much any build. This is why you observed numerous builds that do not even have an aspect. and can combined with almost any of the second and third 'casting ones' (with exception of Malevolen of SW which also is valid as supporting) -> no. I don't mean that at all. I gave you examples to explain my point of view on combining aspects. Aspects can be combined in a manner that doesn't contradict with different play styles (close, ranged, caster). General rule of thumb is that the more you mix skills from different play styles, the worse your character will perform in the later difficulties. An exception is only BFG Seraphim (if not taken buff BFG though Exalted Warrior is useless) -> That is not true. Exalted aspect can be combined with revered focus to good use, especially for close combat. The revered focus provides modding capabilities for the 2 life-saving skills like warding energy and divine protection. In close combat, damage-taking capabilities are essential. This is why many people add numerous defense boosters to their builds. I agree that BFG and exalted combine well, though. *** Dying is not a good factor. For example, only users who play up to their level can be safe. I mean that if your character is good you will enter a server with 10+ level up from yours to be challenged (and you die) That makes your character bad? NO, just you do not mind if dying. And if I see characters with a lot of playing hours sure they are 'chicken' That for SC, for HC it makes more sense to be careful Of course seeing a character with 1000 deaths is extreme scenario...he tried so many times to level up but is weak (there death count matters). -> dying is all that matters. Usually when you die the first time in SC, you really need to step back and do some normal hunting, until your Survival bonus gets back up to a decent level. Actually, to lose 90+ % survival bonus for me is equal to dying in HC. I lose pretty much all game interest in that char. Usually, to lose this SB means to lose all benefits that come with it. I rarely go back to a char that has died. 0% SB at later difficulties can lead to a chain reaction of deaths very quickly. -> I would have to say that a build is only as good as the deaths it may suffer. HC chars don't mind being "chickens" from time to time. That's not bad AT ALL. I'd rather be a "chicken" for 10-20 levels than risk a death with my HC char in which I've put numerous game hours. I'm sure that if you know that once your char dies, it's permanent, you will have a different approach to the game. Even if your build works well, even if your character is too powerful for the mobs 15+ levels over him, you never know when the game will surprise you. This is why some of my HC toons died. Overconfidence is lethal in HC. So 10+ level mobs are not a challenge... survival is the biggest challenge of them all. Edited March 15, 2009 by Dobri Link to comment
Erling 3 Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 oh wow what a thread well I guess we all do some stuff diffrently. It was hard for me to make ''builds'' in the start because I cam straight from sacred underworld where you just mainly used one or two Combat Arts and rarly something hybrid in sacred 2, I prefer hybrid now after a while all classes got some diffrent and some alike (by that I mean melee) qualities so how I like to make them is to focus on both melee and one of the diffrent qualeties for each class lets say..a voodoo dryad? 2 Tactics lore (!!) 3 combat reflexes 5 concentration (anicent bark, morbid anithingy or/and sinister prediator 8 voodoo lore 12 ranged/dw/polearms 18 voodoo focus 25 armor lore 35 constitution 50 toughness? hunter focus? riding? 65 if riding barg? spell resistance? well I just wanted to show how I make my toons now and ho they get hybrod so they wont get boring -Erling oh and I prefer HC because.. well when I look back at SC its nothing compared to HC... its hard to explain Link to comment
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