Amble

Hey, Schot, not sure if you got my PMs while the site was down but I found out an error in my calculation: (<base cost>+(<runes read>*<level cost>)+(<from equip>*<half level cost>))/(1+(<aspect regen bonus>-100%)) I forgot to account for the game considering 100% regen time as "default" So while I solved the web page presentation problem, I'll have to recompile it with the new maths. Edit--It would also seem the game always rounds down on the list so I'll add an extra decimal or two to the regen time.

I finished the spreadsheet. I even changed the way the pull down boxes work, unfortunately that converter program doesn't work with the offset function either, so still no dependent drop down boxes... Anyway, attached the finished sheet. I may have made mistakes in translation or in which aspect some Combat Arts are in, but I think it's right. I'll have to figure out a way later, if we want to go so in depth, to add in the cool down reducing mods. Edit--Made a version of the sheet using the index function that the converter program's been crying about so much and it gives me an error about a strange formula and doesn't make any drop down boxes at all. So looks like my crappy program is useless. sacred2regen1.zip

Here's the revised spreadsheet in .xls format which will be a lot more widely compatible. Let me know if Open Office can export as HTML and keep the interactivity because I'd be very interested in having a tool like that I wouldn't have to pay for That program I used above was a 30 day free trial, the full version is $99. sacred_2_regen.zip

You can export it as HTML but it looses it's interactivity and just saves it as a HTML table I've uploaded to google docs. The "data" part is hidden and I've only put the calculations in for high elf arts at the moment. Though google docs doesn't implement the list type for data validation so no drop downs. You can however type out the combat art name and it will calculate it. Though that includes my rather exceptionally erroneous spelling of Ancestral. Edit -- Unhid data portion and fixed spelling

Well the program I was using to convert my spreadsheet isn't compatible with the "indirect" function and said something about using "index" as a work around. Which I can't see how that works. So without indirect you can't have pull down boxes to refine you search of combat arts like I had planned. I have the spreadsheet worked up, just need to input all the calculations for each Combat Art. However I was going to put a pause on that until we can figure out what we really want. I think a web-based form would be best as it would prevent people from needing excel or open office and also from having to start up another resource intensive program while Sacred is running. If we can't get another method down, I can convert the sheet to just have one pull down list for ALL the Combat Arts (not including buffs, so a bit less than 84 Combat Arts) but it'll make for one long list even if it's sorted. I could also post the excel version for people that may want it. Here's a look at the way the revised sheet is at the moment. The three yellow entries on the left are pull down menus which change based on class/aspect. The orange entries on the right are where you plug in your values. Then it calculates the regen time for you.

I found a program to convert excel to webpages... Attached a .zip with my spreadsheet attached sacred_2_CC.zip

It's an excel 07 file, I can save it in an older format if it helps Basically I have it set up to do the math on a second sheet and you input the values of the runes and regen bonus and pull down a menu to select your Combat Art and it gives you the regen time

Here's a basic spreadsheet. For some reason or another it's not calculating out the regeneration bonus.... I added this to an old builder worksheet that I had started long ago so for all intents and purposes you can mostly ignore the skills thing. Btw, why doesn't this forum email me when subscribed threads are replied to? I have it set for immediate notification and my address is correct Edit-- Figured out the regen bonus problem... Needs another set of parenthesis: =(3+(<runes read>*1.5)+(<runes slotted*0.75))/(1+<regen bonus>)

Well I think ours would be a bit more simplified than these two examples but here's a calculator for Titan Quest and Diablo 2 http://www.titancalc.com/ http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~cbradfor/diablo2/select-hero.html Their calcs require pre-requisites and such where as ours would just need to access a data base, perhaps choosing class and/or aspect to narrow it down then just inputting the desired values for runes and regen bonus. The formula could stay hidden unless the user wished to see it. Edit -- There is also this one for NWN2 which is way, way, way, WAY more complex than what we'd need but demonstrates an excel based method. Edit2 -- Give me a few minutes and I can throw together a preliminary spreadsheet

My main goal here was to provide, mostly to console players, an understanding of what "regen time" affects when the numbers are so large and help to make some sense of why the regen time numbers seem so inconsistent. I knew I wanted to get the information out there but once Gogo pointed me to pitching the idea here I started questioning a way in which to present it and what info may be necessary. Do you suppose my previous idea of a spreadsheet would work to a benefit? Unfortunately I have no actual programming knowledge or a java-based website such as titancalc for Titan Quest to make a character builder of sorts. This done in such a way to where someone, while playing the game, could select a combat art, input their aspect regen time, and plug in runes read and socketed, and get the final result. Well when you hit level caps of Combat Arts you still gain the full cooldown so when plugging numbers into the formula you would still use the actual runes read and socketed even if you're Combat Art doesn't say you get the full benefit. However for abilities like Shadowstep there is less cooldown based on the level so if the cooldown is 7.496 seconds at combat art level 1 (7.5 -.5% per level) then the benefit of it being a theoretical level of 1.5 would be 7.5 -.75% (7.444 seconds). Once you gain some focus skill and are able to gain the benefits of the runes read to raise the combat art to it's real level of 2, then you'd gain the full bonus of 7.5 - 1% (7.43 seconds). Not sure if that's more or less confusing, actually...

I've gotten all the data for the formulae extracted from the spells.txt file now. I just have to put them into table format, unless you guys wanted it in some other form. I've tabled all the Dragon Mage and Temple Guardian abilities so far. They can be seen on my user page One irregularity I noticed was the Temple Guardian's Battle Extension ability doesn't follow the normal pattern. The reading rune value for most skills is half that of the base value, in this case it isn't. Could anyone with a Temple Guardian and Battle Extension maybe plug your scenario into the formula to confirm that slotting a rune adds half the value that reading does?

I know this could all be done on a spreadsheet also in excel and uploaded to google docs Then you could just punch in the values you wanted and get a real time calculation. Edit -- Oh, and the formula may get a little bit more complex as you add spells with cool downs modded by less cool down abilities. Example: Shadow step with Phase Shift mod-- 50% less cool down, + another .5% less each Combat Art level. Once you hit the cap from focus the calculation will change a bit since your Combat Art level will be affected by your Focus skill

cost_level = 175, cost_base = 350, 3.5 + (1 * 1.75) + (23 * .875) / (1 + 18.32) = 1.3134058

R would be the tooltip regen bonus given when you mouse over the aspect title in the Combat Art window pane. I'm installing a new video card as we speak so I can't doble check myself but removing a piece of armor should change that tool tip

Makes sense.. I guess I could have just linked to my user page to let you guys see what my thoughts were Fixed it till there's more input... As I construct the tables I'll add them in to my user page

http://www.sacredwiki.org/index.php5/User:Amble What do you guys think? Does it need some explaining or changes?

This is kinda what I'm thinking of, for each combat art, this one for Combat Trance. I was considering adding a few more rows, perhaps at specific regen boni levels such as 500% 1000% etc but it may not be needed and perhaps I should just K.I.S.S

Thanks, Schot, though unfortunately for my feeble mind that doesn't alleviate any misunderstandings for what the buff times are for Edit -- Now I see... So according to the info I have for familiar: dm_dm_vertrauter aspect = "EA_DM_DRAGONMAGIC", cooldown = 0.000000, soundProfile = 0, cost_level = 300, cost_base = 300, It starts with a 30% regen penalty, but I forgot about your base stamina value added to it. "next level" I would assume it to be somewhere around 55%-60%

Attached functioning regen calculating .htm for those that would like to use it but didn't want to read the whole thread. I'm working on an addition to the wiki that displays regen times for combat arts and I'm a bit stumped on the game's value for buffs For Dragon Mages runes of protection I'm given a value of 400 and 350 for protector. Would someone out there be able to create a naked level 1 dragon mage with those buffs memorized and tell me if the regen penalties are 40% and 35% respectively? And if not, what are they? The info I'm putting in, for example is: Combat Trance dm_me_kampftrance aspect = "EA_DM_MENTALISM", cooldown = 60.000000, soundProfile = 0, cost_level = 50, cost_base = 100, which means that it has a 6 second cool down, regen time at level 0 is 1 second, and it adds .5 seconds for each rune read or .25 seconds for socketing. I'd also add in the formula to figure out the final regen times with boni: (B + (x * L) + (y * 0.5L) / (1 + R)) + C = T B=base cost in seconds L=cost increase per rune read R=regen bonus C=cool down x=# runes read y=# bonus from items T=final regen time So for level 3 Combat Trance with 2 runes read and 1 socketed and a 300% regen bonus: (10 + (2 * 5) + (1 * 2.5) / (1 + 3.00)) + 6 = 11.625 or likely 11.63 seconds rounded up Though I'm not sure where to put the formula if I put the table with the regen times under each Combat Art on their respective class page. Edit -- Maths sacred2regen1.zip

Since you're on the 360 I'm not sure if you get all the tool tips that are available on the PC, but basically like said earlier the stamina tool tip is the average regen time of all three aspects. If you mod GI at bronze and are using a fire or ice buff then one aspect will be faster. Regen math can be done with access to the game's files. Basically with fireball it has a base regen time of 3 seconds at level 0. For each rune you read you add 1.5 seconds. I believe +combat arts will only add half of that, meaning +1 fireball to you're level one HE would make the regen 5.25 seconds, before armor penalties and attributes. A brand new high elf has a starting fireball regen of 4.4 so this math is sound. 3.0+(2*1.5)+(1* 0.75)/( 1+ 3.222) = 1.1 Base Memmed Item Regen Regen Level Boni Bonus This formula assumes 2 runes read, 1 from items, and your 322.2% average regen bonus. This may or may not be an overly complicated answer to your question Edit-- Stuff doesn't line up right at all on a cell phone...

So after returning to Sacred 2 again after a long time off and getting the expansion and seeing that the staff skill adds in ranged attacks I was thinking of seeing if I could fit it into a build. The skills I have chosen at the moment, undecided on the order yet: Concentration Delphic Focus Delphic Lore Bargain (no hi level shoppers yet) Armor Lore Constitution Staff Lore Riding (Cast animation seems faster to me... along with the defensive boni) Ancient Magic (figuring it's worth it just for the mastery effect) ---? Shield Lore/Combat Discipline I'm planning to use Cobalt Strike as a primary attack and Magic Coup as a ranged heavy hit spell... My boggle is that I'm unsure if staff lore will actually be worth it or if shield lore will be. I figure it'll be easy to find unique two handed staves or decent two handed staves in general. However lacking the defense bonus of shield lore and a nice shield is noticeable to me as early as level 20. Would I be better off taking Pyromancer Lore and using Incendiary shower for a heavy hit and mod Inc Skin for the defense? If I went that route then I wouldn't need staff lore at all since I don't really plan to left click... And if I go pure Delphic I'm wondering if I should mod Expulse for offense and let GI help block Combat Arts/effects or mod both for defense... Also, what are peoples' thoughts on the expert mode thingy during character creation?

I could be counted as one of those people that never make it to the end-game myself. I've always read builds and planned my characters for it, but once I start gold I always get the urge to start a new character. I haven't even made it through silver yet in Sacred 2, but I have about 8 characters that have made it to Griffenburg, and a few more that haven't. It is true, though, that in these kinds of games that items tend to naturalize everything by end-game. Even in MMOs, I remember that in EQ 1 people were debating on the better warrior race between ogre or troll because of strength vs stamina. In the end, the arbitrary starting difference had little value, it actually came down to the fact that ogres couldn't be stunned from the front with a bash. Which is much like your example with classes' innate abilities being the larger deciding factor. P.S. Is one of the reasons this forum uses such a large percentage of the width of the screen so you can make a huge wall of text and have it not really seem like one?

As we had discussed on the official forum, stat placement only accounts for 10%± of total attributes gained and can raise a single stat almost 75% higher than final values.

I've gotten it a lot with this name over the years, maybe it's because it ends in a vowel, I dunno, but I guess it should be noted that I'm a he

I added the maps on my computer's file server. The size of the file listed pretty much directly translates to file quality, but they should all be full size maps. I have a 1MB upload speed so downloads will probably cap at around 100k/sec